Tournament 1750 - potential trim issues?

[mr240zed]

As per a previous post I am investigating a potential issue with my trim. 115hp Etec on a 17.5ft Fibreglass half cab – Tournament

http://www.etecownersgroup.com/post/115hp-intake-whistle-at-low-rpm-fuel-usage-high-6830739?pid=1282191336#post1282191336 (http://www.etecownersgroup.com/post/115hp-intake-whistle-at-low-rpm-fuel-usage-high-6830739?pid=1282191336#post1282191336)

Does the trim look correct from these photos?

I know this isn’t an accurate way of measuring but I would appreciate any info on how to check the trim set up correctly.


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/RB30X/0trim_zps5086f77b.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/RB30X/media/0trim_zps5086f77b.jpg.html)

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/RB30X/IMG_7454_zpsaae25ba7.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/RB30X/media/IMG_7454_zpsaae25ba7.jpg.html)

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/RB30X/50trim_zps721d36ba.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/RB30X/media/50trim_zps721d36ba.jpg.html)

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/RB30X/75trim_zpsb0483212.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/RB30X/media/75trim_zpsb0483212.jpg.html)

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/RB30X/IMG_7457_zps648a70db.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/RB30X/media/IMG_7457_zps648a70db.jpg.html)

I'd appreciate any other Tournament owners findings too,in regards to fuel economy/speeds/range etc

Thanks for your help.

[mr240zed]

I should probably clarify:

When travelling at speed in my previous boat (480 Freedom Sport 75hp Etec) I could trim the motor out, listening to the revs increase, until the speed stopped increasing and thats where I would leave it.

With this new boat, when trimming the motor up I dont hear/see any increase in revs or speed so I'm thinking my trim might not be trimming up enough??

[Chimo]

Or more likely the motor is too low so you are not getting the prop back / up enough.
Where is the cav plate when you are up and running? If the motor is high enough and your arm was long enough and you had spare fingers you should be able to slide a flat hand between the water surface and the bottom of the cav plat with the motor trimmed up / back probably where you trimmed to on your last boat.

What prop is it by the way? Raker's like to go way up many others not so much..

Cheers
Chimo

[mr240zed]

Thanks mate. My prop is a Viper 14 3/4 x 17". Seems to have a good accerelation speed as well as top end etc

[Chimo]

Vipers like to be wet. So where is your cav plate in relation to the water surface when your are fast cruising ?


Cheers
Chimo

[mr240zed]

The prop was definetly wet.....

I'll have to double check the cav plate height next time im on the water.

So you dont believe the issue to be the trim angle itself but the motor height?

[Chimo]

Best way to get things right is to do one thing at a time

" I'll have to double check the cav plate height next time im on the water. " Sounds like a plan!


Cheers
Chimo

[Skusto]

And as has been said on the etec forum a rebel prop will be better for economy.. But by the looks of it if I lift one hole it will help by the looks of it.

[MyWay]

here is photo to help you

[mr240zed]

Thanks for all of your advice here, I had an oppertunity yesterday to take the boat to a freshwater dam to try out the motor after lifting it one hole. The good news is I could hear the engine noise change as the motor was trimmed up and when it was too high etc. The effect it had on speed and fuel economy was marginal if at all. The cav plate still appears to submerged when on the plane though. I have taken a video to help you guys visualise. I'd appreciate your thoughts once again.

First test with my wife driving the trim was left @ 75% so the boat didnt take off.
Second test was about 25-35% trim.
Third test was 25-35% trim then trimming out to 75%.

http://vimeo.com/93102661

In regards to the first test, I noticed this a lot when towing people around on tubes, skiis and boards yesterday.... with a larger drag (adult on skiis etc) I would give it almost full throttle and the engine would perform similar to the first test in the video. Hestitate to accelerate past X rpm until the drag reduced (skiier/tube/knee board gets up on the plane) then the revs would come up and the boat would take off like a rocket. In the case of my wife pulling me out on skiis, it doesnt take off at all, regardless of throttle %. Does this mean I might need a smaller prop for water sports purposes?

Here is some speed/trim/fuel economy data I recorded too.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/RB30X/trimdata_zps99ba50aa.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/RB30X/media/trimdata_zps99ba50aa.jpg.html)

Now it might just be me, but I swear I could get this boat with the same amount of people and gear to touch 38-40knots and 6000rpm last time on the dam. Now nothing has changed but lifting one hole higher, except for a couple of marks on the prop from idling over rocks last trip out but I did smooth them off with a flap disc so you really cant notice them.

[MattM84]

Have you tried adjusting the pin the motor rests on when fully down up a hole or 2? (don't know the correct name for it,but its the pin that runs horizontaly with 6 adjustment holes) maybe worth playing with next time your out as you could be running out of trim. Also may i ask why in the video you were taking off with the motor already trimmed up? i have always been taught/told to have the motor trimmed all the way down when taking off as this lifts the bum up out the water and helps the hull get on the plane, you then trim the motor up from there to get the hull/motor performing at its best

[Chimo]

"The cav plate still appears to submerged when on the plane though. I have taken a video to help you guys visualise. I'd appreciate your thoughts once again."

Sounds like you need to lift the motor. If it was mine it would go up the two holes and test. Always easy to come down one if you need to. You know the the boat will float differently in fresh cf to salt I guess.

Cheers
Chimo

[mr240zed]

Did you read the description in my post mate? I left it on 75% accidently and went to film as the wife tried to take off.
I thought those holes were to stop trimming in/down too much, not trimming up??

[Chimo]

I refer to the four nuts and bolts that secure the motor to the transom. You have hydraulic adjustment on trim and tilt so pin across bracket should allow max motor travel.

Suggest you sit up the front while operator gets boat up and planning and stable before you attempt photography! (OH&S)

Consider that the aim of good boat set up is to able to place your flat hand on the water surface below the cav plate and water surface above the spinning prop, mate.

[mr240zed]

Thanks Chimo I was refering to MattM84 (http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/member.php?319033-MattM84)'s comment about the horizontal holes.
Cheers

[MattM84]

Thats right they do limit the amount of down trim, and thats the point i was trying to make was maybe its down/in to far to start with and you a running out of "up" trim before the motor is actually trimmed up enough, You asked for peoples thoughts and seeing as you have played with just about everything else this might be worth playing with. And nowhere in your post does it say you ACCIDENTLY left the trim @75% which is why I asked the question.

[mr240zed]

And nowhere in your post does it say you ACCIDENTLY left the trim @75% which is why I asked the question.


First test with my wife driving the trim was left @ 75% so the boat didnt take off.


You're right, I didnt say accidently in the post, however I did in the video.

I understand where you are coming from in regards to the 'range' that the trim has been set up for which was what my original question was about. I thought that bar was only a hard stop, not an option for re-ranging the trim height.

[Moonlighter]

Ok, a couple of points having read the earlier posts.

Firstly, trim gauges are not a precision instrument! Meaning: what a trim gauge says on one boat cannot reliably be compared with what the same gauge on the same motor on another boat reads. They should be treated as a guide only that is specific to the boat they are on.

They are a useful tool to help you find the "sweet spot" on your boat, and once that point is noted, you can use it for future reference on your boat only. Thats about it. Comparing what a gauge says on one boat to another is fraught with issues.

Secondly, when you are testing your boat to check for the correct engine height, you need to get the boat up to a fast cruise speed, trimmed out to the sweet spot, and then go down the back and look to see where the anti-vent plate is in relation to the water surface.

As Chimo says, to get max performance it usually needs to be just skimming the surface or getting splashed when it is at that fast cruise speed as just described above. It should not be submerged and underwater in the flow.

If you get the engine height right, it will get the angle and height of thrust to the optimum position and you then get best speed and fuel economoy and best response to engine trim adjustments.

So, if your anti-vent (sometimes incorrectly referred to as the cavitation plate) is still well under water at that fast cruise, normal engine trim position, then the engine is still set too low and would likely benefit from being lifted another hole higher.

The final variable then, once height is good, is the prop. All props are not the same, even if they are same pitch and diameter.

Blade shapes and rake can make them very different in performance. Some will lift the stern much more than others. Some are more inclined to ventilate and need the engine set a bit deeper than others. Alloy props usually dont grip the water as well as stainless.

And there are other differences as well, too many to list here, but you get the drift. You might think you are comparing apples with apples, but you might not actually be.

But the generally accepted rule is get the engine height set to optimum before you play with anything else, especially props.

It is very common for dealers to set the engine too low, often by a couple of holes, either because they are lazy or because they think it is safer because the prop wont ventilate as easily and people wont complain about losing grip in corners and in following seas and make them change it. But a engine set too low restricts revs, causes excess drag which affects fuel economy and speed, and reduces responsiveness to engine trim changes.

Read this - these guys really know their stuff and are recognised as the experts: http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=137.0

Sounds to several of us, from what you have described as your anti-vent plate still being well underwater (assuming it was like that at the fast cruise speed as described earlier) like your engine may still be too deep. If so, lift it and test again, and record the results.

Finally, lifting the engine as you have done is extremely unlikely to have lowered your speed, as you will now have gathered from the above comments. Far more likely that lifting the engine will have improved speed. Far more likely!

The prop would have to be losing grip on the water, and that would be pretty obvious. More likley is that the previous encounters with rocks that you described has put the prop out of shape/balance and that is the reason for loss of speed. Or the trim angle or load or load placement in the boat was different.

[Chimo]

Three Cheers For Moonlighter, a man of great patience! Hip Hip Hooray X3

[mudcrab3]

hey mate I have the same boat and motor setup I find this is happening to us wat fuel economy do u get

[mr240zed]

What bolt height have you got yours on mudcrab3??

[MyWay]

try this
it doesn't cost anything and it only takes 30 minutes to do it:
if it is not good put the boat back on a trailer and lower the engine where it was before
you can do this at the ramp with your jokey wheel, you don't have to tow the boat home

[mr240zed]

Thanks MyWay I was going to lift it one more hole anyway to the arrow on your drawing. What would moving the lower pin achieve? Cheers

[scottar]

It will take away negative trim. I wouldn't bother. It will only make it harder to get the bum up when trying to drag a skier out. Lift the motor one hole and give it a try. I tried all the holes on my Victory before settling on the second from top. With the Viper prop it is possible you will see a slight reduction in speed if the prop ends up too high. I did - only a couple of knots but it did happen. I ended up picking the second hole as a compromise for offshore work. As the guys have stated, it is a pretty simple process to lift /lower the motor with the trailer using you jockey wheel. Just make sure you re-seal the transom bolts.

[Fed]

I've watched the video a few times mr240 and I think you're getting ventilating or cavitation or both.

I'd get the prop checked and is the prop sitting inside the gearcase with the right tolerance?

Prop diffuser ring in place?

Looks like it's blowing bubbles instead of accelerating.

[mr240zed]

I finally got a chance to lift the motor to the last hole and test.

It felt completely different, like being in 3rd gear instead of 4th.

The test only had me and my son in the boat with no gear so I will have to test again with a full load.

Max rpm now 6200 @ 36 knots

Fuel economy has improved. Almost getting 1:1 ratio with knots vs L/hr

Was 23 knots @ 25L/hr, now much closer, 23knots @ 23.8L/hr or 25.5knots @ 26.2L/hr etc

As mentioned above, with more weight in the boat the prop will sit lower in the water, so will re-test with similar capacity as last test.

Will take a pic of the AV plate next time too.

Thanks for your help

[scottar]

Now the thing to do is load it as you would for a trip and check your WOT revs. You may well be able to go up in prop pitch 1 or even 2 inches depending on the results and increase your economy and speed further

[Fed]

Firstly let me say I didn't take into account the 75% in the video, I only took a quick look & listen hence my bubbles comment from test one.

So far it seems you have lost 4 Knots top speed, increased your WOT slip from 5% to 17% and saved 1 Litre of fuel every 23 NM.

The 'verado' wannabe website.... the first time I saw it they lost me on the first page...

A buried cavplate is like dragging a bucket on a rope behind your boat: total drag that hurts performance and puts pressure (pull) on the transom.
I delved into the forums a little deeper, even prop god ken seems to distance himself. Flame away.

[LittleSkipper]

Ok, a couple of points having read the earlier posts.

Firstly, trim gauges are not a precision instrument! Meaning: what a trim gauge says on one boat cannot reliably be compared with what the same gauge on the same motor on another boat reads. They should be treated as a guide only that is specific to the boat they are on.

They are a useful tool to help you find the "sweet spot" on your boat, and once that point is noted, you can use it for future reference on your boat only. Thats about it. Comparing what a gauge says on one boat to another is fraught with issues.

Secondly, when you are testing your boat to check for the correct engine height, you need to get the boat up to a fast cruise speed, trimmed out to the sweet spot, and then go down the back and look to see where the anti-vent plate is in relation to the water surface.

As Chimo says, to get max performance it usually needs to be just skimming the surface or getting splashed when it is at that fast cruise speed as just described above. It should not be submerged and underwater in the flow.

If you get the engine height right, it will get the angle and height of thrust to the optimum position and you then get best speed and fuel economoy and best response to engine trim adjustments.

So, if your anti-vent (sometimes incorrectly referred to as the cavitation plate) is still well under water at that fast cruise, normal engine trim position, then the engine is still set too low and would likely benefit from being lifted another hole higher.

The final variable then, once height is good, is the prop. All props are not the same, even if they are same pitch and diameter.

Blade shapes and rake can make them very different in performance. Some will lift the stern much more than others. Some are more inclined to ventilate and need the engine set a bit deeper than others. Alloy props usually dont grip the water as well as stainless.

And there are other differences as well, too many to list here, but you get the drift. You might think you are comparing apples with apples, but you might not actually be.

But the generally accepted rule is get the engine height set to optimum before you play with anything else, especially props.

It is very common for dealers to set the engine too low, often by a couple of holes, either because they are lazy or because they think it is safer because the prop wont ventilate as easily and people wont complain about losing grip in corners and in following seas and make them change it. But a engine set too low restricts revs, causes excess drag which affects fuel economy and speed, and reduces responsiveness to engine trim changes.

Read this - these guys really know their stuff and are recognised as the experts: http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=137.0

Sounds to several of us, from what you have described as your anti-vent plate still being well underwater (assuming it was like that at the fast cruise speed as described earlier) like your engine may still be too deep. If so, lift it and test again, and record the results.

Finally, lifting the engine as you have done is extremely unlikely to have lowered your speed, as you will now have gathered from the above comments. Far more likely that lifting the engine will have improved speed. Far more likely!

The prop would have to be losing grip on the water, and that would be pretty obvious. More likley is that the previous encounters with rocks that you described has put the prop out of shape/balance and that is the reason for loss of speed. Or the trim angle or load or load placement in the boat was different.

Thanks for the insight. I will now always refer to my cavitation plate as the anti-vent plate.


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