Suzuki DF140 vs DF140A ?

[Marko888]

Hello,

I'm considering two DF140 options for my 80's Whaler Outrage 18, plus one outlier being E-TEC 135 HO.
Total loaded for fishing weight, including gear, POB and full fuel, will range 1200-1300kg.
Usage will be 100-200 hours per year.

I'm repowering from the original 1985 Johnson 150 V6, and am focused on the Suzuki for it's light weight, quiet running, reputation for reliability, and hopefully ability to troll down to about 3.2 kmh. I realize I will lose a bit of performance, but am thinking it won`t be significant as my current 150 is ancient!

New 2012 DF140
New 2014 DF140A

The 2014 DF140 is 21% more $$$ than the 2012 DF140

- Is Troll Control and Lean Burn worth spending the extra $ on the new 140A ?

One other option is a 2014 135 HO E-TEC, which is a few % cheaper than the 2014 DF140A, but I'm a bit fraidy-cat on E-TEC reliability.
Suzuki`s DF150 is out due to it being too heavy for my boat.

Thoughts?

[stang69]

I dont know about the new Suzuki 140A, but the previous model is a very weak motor. Its only 128HP. Compared to a V6 2 stroke 150HP it wont even be close in performance. If weight is an issue maybe the Mercury 150hp 4 stroke could be a contender?
Etec 135HO would be close in performance.... but.... its an etec.

[Noelm]

The old 140 being only 128hp is an Internet myth, however the new 140A is a much better motor in quite a few ways, it would be my pick over a 135 e-tec any day, and before we get into any e-tec wars, that is my opinion only.

[Marko888]

My current 150 is a doughy old power head rated Johnson. The 135 HO will probably eat it for lunch, and I don't need that much go....most days!

I don't believe the bunk about the 140 being 128hp... but it will for sure have less torque than any 150.

cheers

[Marko888]

Can you elaborate on the "better" Noelm? I'm in Canada and it's tough to find any specifics on the real-world improvements from the old engine.

[Chimo]

Marko

I run a couple of old tech 115HP Evinrudes and I'm keeping them as like you I don't do massive hrs. Also dubious about Etecs mainly because of the injectors dislike of water and E10 fuel which I avoid at all cost even with the carby 115s.

Mind you the old carby units will put up with old, stale, crappy fuel which is what we get to use here a good deal of the time. The problem is you dont know when it crappy or has a little water in it and thats the problem. I know one can fit super fine fuel filters and I have a couple but...........

A friend has a rig with two of the old 140HPs and they really do present as a gutless power plant. Maybe the new ones are less so.

As I suspect you winterise so you probably drain your boat tank before the cold, wet BC weather sets in, in which case oldish, stale fuel could be less of an issue for you.

Many of us on this site feel that the motor you buy has a lot to do with the quality of the motor dealer / service guy you have a relationship with.

Perhaps, as your in the market zone close to the home of Bombardier, you could be well looked after with an Etec. Especially if you have a good marine tech close by to service it. Why the HO rather than straight 135HP Also why not a 150 HP Etec if the service is good and close. Where are you in BC by the way?

Cheers
Chimo (a name that should ring ice bells for you)?

[Marko888]

Hi Chimo,

I'm in Kelowna, one of the driest places in BC, and situate on a 150km lake which is just brilliant in the summer.

My old 150 runs pretty well, but I don't know its history and the bottom end is a bit noisy. We have plans for some pretty remote trips so reliability is one reason for my repower. The second is my old Whaler is sensitive to transom weight, meaning when I add a trolling engine, it really hurts the handling. I figure I can get a modern rig which will happily idle all day for two or 3 weekends of salmon fishing a year, as well as stop smoking out the resorts we stop at on the lake all summer.

I just treat the fuel for winter and the boat is garage stored.

What year are your mate's engines? There was a gearing change in 2007-8 to help hole shot, plus we know the prop setup is critical. There are a few reports of people getting 66-70kmh out of my hull with a DF140 and the best I've seen with my 150 was 74. For my fishing trips, where I'll be a bit heavy, I would just use a shorter pitch prop than for our lake use, where we run pretty light most of the time.

We have an average E-TEC dealer locally, good ones are 4 hours away. Suzuki service has also been scarce, but I do have a friend not far away who can supply parts.

E-TEC 2.6L V6's are currently available as 135 HO (148hp) 150 (150hp) 150 HO (165hp) plus 175 and 200. There is no straight 135 and the 130 V4 is no longer available here. The 135 HO is so close to 150 and a grand cheaper. I'd be choosing for the torque and not the top speed so much, so the 135 would be fine.

I go back and forth on this deal daily...just can't quite get set on final choice. I know there are a lot of Suzuki's down under, which is why I signed up today to get this thread going.

cheers

[Chimo]

Hi Marko

Nice county, been thru there on the way up to Kitimat.

Seems like you have it well sorted out. Sounds like the 135HO is the go to me. Even with an average dealer close by I'd use him as you have a good back up not too far away and Bombardier is in your neighbourhood.

Not sure what gearbox my mates 140HPs have. They were just too dog like for me after my 115HPs on my heavy old Vagabond.

Have you considered having a working bee on your existing motor and running some of the 50 or 100 oil after that to reduce the smoke?
Mind you a bit of smoke has to be good to keep those rotten mosquitos at bay thru your summer feeding season!

Cheers
Chimo

[Marko888]

Ha ha, there's very few skeeters around here!

I'm just not that interested in working on or continuing to run the 1985 engine. I'd like the boat engine to be like my Toyota truck...turn the key and go without worry.

It's strangely about opportunity. I can escape for a salmon fishing trip two or three long weekends per year. To get from here to where we fish and lodge, it's a minimum $2500 trip. If it goes bad due to the old girl deciding to cash in her chips, we're out 25% of the cost of a fresh motor. Add the potential to have my missus' folks here, after their $1500 in airfare... It would be totally different if we lived at the coast, where if it goes bad, we could just go the following weekend.

It's been goof communication. Thank you.

[Chimo]

Kool, no salmon around salmon arm? time you were in bed me thinks!

Places like Clear Lake is where I got my biggest bumps, and then there were the bears to keep ones mind focused.

[Marko888]

We fish around Nootka Island, off the west coast of Vancouver island.

Can anyone else offer any DF140 comment re my original questions?

[Jarrah Jack]

deleted...

[gofishin]

Hi Marko,
How long have you had the boat?

How long do you plan on keeping the boat? And, are there any factors that could change this?
Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Marko888]

I've had the boat 2 years. Wanted one for over 20 years before making it happen! I guided out of 15' and 17' Whalers in the 80's when these things were kicking a$$ in our area.

it is presently the perfect boat for us. The missus and I can do anything we want with it, so figure it will be around for a while. Our use varies between martini runs on the lake, pulling kids on a tube, to 7 hour tows for west coast fishing, and or touring about our beautiful coastline. There is even enough room to camp in the bow. I occasionally think about Edgewater 205 Cc's, but realistically this is probably unlikely.

Resale would be easier in our area with a Suzuki. Alternatively, if we go the V6 E-TEC, we could take it with us if 2'-itis sets in.

[Short Fuse]

A mate of mine owns a 5 metre Hydrofield which was powered for many years by an old V4 Evinrude. About 5 years ago, the Rude decided it did not want toplay anymore so he repowered with a DF140 Suzuki.

His initial impressions were that the DF140 was almost as quick off the mark, cruised at roughly the same speeds for the same rev range, and the Suzuki was around 40% better on fuel than the Evinrude, so he was stoked to say the least.

When he had 500 hours on the Suzuki, he looked at a repower, and was offerred $8k trade in for his old Suzuki, so he put the new DF140A on. He says the newer motor is at least 10% better on fuel than the older one was. He is very happy with the DF140A and now has around 150 hours on the new motor.

Cheers

Jeff

[stevej]

what do you base the suzukis reliability on ? how is it more reliable then any other brand.

[Noelm]

Not too sure anyone said they were more reliable did they? All new motors are reliable these days (well most anyway) it was more that the weight of the 140 Suzuki makes it a great repower choice, perfect as a replacement for the old V4 OMCs. The 140A is considerably better on fuel than the old model.

[Chimo]

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/engine-reviews/2012/suzuki/140-hp/suzuki-debuts-new-df100-115-140a-four-strokes-33806

[stang69]

Noelm, the DF140 being 128hp isnt a myth. Manufacturers have a 10% leeway up or down in advertising HP of outboards. Some motors have more HP than their sticker says, some have less. EG. Yamaha 150hp 4 stroke has 162HP. Etec 200HO has 217 or 218, I forget. The 4.2 lt Yamaha 225 HP has 238HP.
The Suzuki DF115 and DF140 are slugs. They are quiet and good on fuel, but pretty weak. Once you get to the V6's, then the Suzukis have some grunt. Been on the same model boat with twin DF115's and twin Yamaha F115's. Night and day. If Marko888 chooses a DF140 he will be disappointed in the performance no doubt.
If I was in the market for a 140-150hp outboard i'd be looking at the new Mercury 150 4 stroke which has a lot going for it. Light weight, big capacity so it will have good torque, and its cheap. Plus Mercury have the best selection of factory props available.

[fisho64]

what a load of cobblers Stang.
The 10% is an allowable manufacturing variation between individual motors-unless you can show where this mysterious "10%" allowance is documented.
Please show us where the DF140 has been tested on a dyno by anyone other than the manufacturer.
Or any of the ones you have listed for that matter.
The DF140 is a proven reliable lightweight and cost effective unit

[Marko888]

Well it seems Aus also has the same issues with pissing matches as we have here in NA...

Everything I read, and I've been obsessing about this one for a while, indicates the output of a DF140 is about midway between that of an F115 and F150 Yamaha. This seems completely appropriate, it has a bit more displacement than the F115, a lot less than an F150. Over here, it's the F115 which is considered to be a bit weak, but remains an exceptional and well regarded choice for many boats. Test reports of these 3 engines on the same hull have the F115 achieving 60k, DF115 at 70, F150 at 80 or so.

Any of these small block I4 4-strokes is going to be weak compared to a V6 2-stroke if mounted on an overly heavy boat. I'm ok with this, as my boat is not overly heavy, I don't need to go 80k, and don't want or need a 220+ kilo engine.

i'd appreciate comments from those experienced with the 140 and 140A. Thanks.

[Noelm]

OH yeah, pissing contest are a world wide event, one thing never changes, whatever brand a person owns is the best ever made! While I don't own a 140 I do have plenty of first hand experience in repoweing from a 120 V4 OMC to a 140 and then from the 140 to a 140A, the first upgrade from the old 2stroke was as expected, big fuel improvements, very little weight difference, and a much quieter running engine, keep in mind the old 120 is a very powerful 2 litre engine, then from the 140 to the 140A (all on the same boat) there was a noticeable difference in fuel, and a "perceived"? Difference in mid range torque, but no real way to measure that, but it sure seemed to be the case. How much HP individual motor actually produce is anyone's guess, but the 140 being 128HP has been doing the rounds for near on a decade, just because it's on the 'net, it must be fact.

[Marko888]

My last post has an error: I meant to type 70k for a DF140. The three reports are on a 5.5m, 700kg (before rigging, fuel and pob)

I figure the 140 is going to be light on torque compared to my old V6, but appears to get the job done provided it is not mounted on too heavy of boat. I think the myth got started because the torque is less, so it isn't as strong as a 2.6-2.8l 150. The 140hp arrives at 6000rpm in a DF140, so It's just common sense that it will feel weaker compared to the next class of engine.

Sounds like it it would be wise to buck up for the new model. Cheers

[stang69]

the DF140 is weak, pretty common knowledge. Seems like the pissing contest is with the people that own a Suzuki. As Noelm rightly says, everyone thinks whatever they bought is the best. And they will defend their decision to the death, or until they buy something else.
I am unbiased, only speaking from personal experience. As I said, once you get to the V6 Suzukis, 200HP plus, they actually out perform some other brands. Not their 4 cylinders though.
Here is a little secret, you can actually roughly work out HP buy knowing top speed, prop pitch, boat dimensions. But shhh, dont tell anyone.

[Salad Fingers]

yes the DF140 is weak that's why it pushes my 5.67m (LOA) 2.4m wide alloy boat to 74kph.. while still being able to cruise at 3km/l. ?

of course the bigger displacement motors will have more torque - I don't think anyone would dispute that, they also weigh alot more (if we're talking 4strokes here). The df140 is a great motor and so long as you have it propped to be at red-line you'll be sweet.

maybe I'm biased because I own one? or maybe I just like its performance?

anyway to the OP re: 140 or 140a, my 140a seems to be a lot more fuel efficient than my mates 140 he has one a similar boat at cruising speeds. if that is important I would get it over the normal 140. I don't know about troll control? don't think my 140a has that? or if it does I don't know how to use it lol.

[honda900]

The DF140 is a great engine, it doesn't want for horse power, the 128hp is rubbish, Actually it is 138hp, this is a proven as fact (this topic has been done to death, search ausfish). Propping it correctly makes a world of difference.

Check out boat point, look for Cats, and see how many are powered with DF140's as opposed to Etecs, that should give you some confidence in the engines.

Regards
Honda

[fisho64]

I am unbiased, only speaking from personal experience.
Here is a little secret, you can actually roughly work out HP buy knowing top speed, prop pitch, boat dimensions. But shhh, dont tell anyone.

Me too, im unbiased as well and speaking from personal experience.
So, unable now to provide this "proven fact" you read on the internet, you now have a foolproof method of calculating the HP to closer than 10% of actual-please do tell how and show your calculation "proving" 128hp?

[honda900]

So below is fact.

You can find the output of most outboards if you look hard enough, the 128hp suzi info is a myth. the actual tested figure is 138Hp.

the following link contains the american certification data for engines, so you should be able to find what you are looking for.

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/certdata.htm#marinesi (http://www.epa.gov/OMS/certdata.htm#marinesi)


Note the heading on the columns - ALL the numbers are in metric form. HP on the spreadsheet is in KW, torque is in NM - you need to convert it for HP and ft-lbs!

Go to the "models" tab and do a search for "DF" and it will take you right there. In the case of the DF-140 the power is listed at 102.97 - that's KW! Convert to Hp and it comes out 138.085.

The below is from the spreadsheet titled "mar-si07-09.zip"

This doesn't look so good, but its basically:

model, displacement, KW, rpm, torque, rpm

DF115/DF115Z 1950 84.58 5500 159 4500
DF140/DF140Z 2044 102.97 6000 165 4500
DF100 1950 73.55 5500 150 4000
DF150/DF150Z 2867 110.33 5500 235.2 4500
DF175/DF175Z 2867 128.71 5800 245 4500
DF200/DF200Z 3614 147.1 5500 307.7 3500
DF225/DF225Z 3614 165.49 5500 311.6 4500
DF250/DF250Z 3614 183.88 5800 313.6 4500
DF250S 4028 183.88 5800 343.2 4000
DF300/DF300Z 4028 220.65 6000 343.2 4500


Regards
Honda.

[FisHard]

So below is fact.

You can find the output of most outboards if you look hard enough, the 128hp suzi info is a myth. the actual tested figure is 138Hp.

the following link contains the american certification data for engines, so you should be able to find what you are looking for.

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/certdata.htm#marinesi (http://www.epa.gov/OMS/certdata.htm#marinesi)


Note the heading on the columns - ALL the numbers are in metric form. HP on the spreadsheet is in KW, torque is in NM - you need to convert it for HP and ft-lbs!

Go to the "models" tab and do a search for "DF" and it will take you right there. In the case of the DF-140 the power is listed at 102.97 - that's KW! Convert to Hp and it comes out 138.085.

The below is from the spreadsheet titled "mar-si07-09.zip"

This doesn't look so good, but its basically:

model, displacement, KW, rpm, torque, rpm

DF115/DF115Z 1950 84.58 5500 159 4500
DF140/DF140Z 2044 102.97 6000 165 4500
DF100 1950 73.55 5500 150 4000
DF150/DF150Z 2867 110.33 5500 235.2 4500
DF175/DF175Z 2867 128.71 5800 245 4500
DF200/DF200Z 3614 147.1 5500 307.7 3500
DF225/DF225Z 3614 165.49 5500 311.6 4500
DF250/DF250Z 3614 183.88 5800 313.6 4500
DF250S 4028 183.88 5800 343.2 4000
DF300/DF300Z 4028 220.65 6000 343.2 4500


Regards
Honda.

Great info thanks Honda!
I'm particularly interested in the DF 200 figures (I've got one). Torque peaks at 3500, and is close to even the 250s peak figure. No wonder it feels like a punchy power plant!!

[gofishin]

Noelm,the DF140 being 128hp isnt a myth... Yes it is! And, it has been a myth since 2001, when this outboard was tested by the relevant department of the US EPA, and the results released in their database.

Refer attached extract from US EPA Testing Database, which independently test all outboards (and a lot of other ‘stuff’ powered by IC engines too). The DF140 was tested in 2001 and produces 138hp @ 6000rpm.

I extracted these figures a few years ago. The columns in green are where I have converted kW to HP and calculated HP at max torque.

Possibly the DF140A is listed now too, but haven’t looked. Look here:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/certdata.htm#marinesi (http://www.epa.gov/oms/certdata.htm#marinesi)



…Manufacturers have a 10% leeway up or down in advertising HP of outboards... Although there is a ‘leeway’ as you put it, it’s not quite this simple.

The International ICOMIA Standard 28-83 came about in 1983 to regulate the inconsistencies with how outboards were rated at the time – and most were at the crankshaft. 1985 (from memory) was the first year that all outboards had to comply with this standard.

From memory, manufacturers must state a ‘declared power’ and a recommended WOT operating range. The highest power developed within that range cannot exceed the ‘Declared Power’ (i.e. 140hp) by either 5 or 6% (can’t remember exactly). Nor can it be under the declared power by more than a certain amount. There are other constraints too, and a 10% figure could be in there somewhere.

Haven’t read the standard for years, but if you want to know for sure Google should produce.



…Please show us where the DF140 has been tested on a dyno by anyone other than the manufacturer…. See above EPA extract, which anyone can obtain by downloading the latest data from their website. There are probably thousands of entries of outboards, with every model variant of each HP range listed, so it is a little time consuming.

Oh, and there can be some typos too, like the torque stated for some 150HP E-TEC variants. For some E-TEC 150 models the torque stated equates to the engine producing 275 HP! Pfft, pretty pathetic proof reading! However, some of the models are stated with the correct torque, as I have quoted in the attached. So do your sums and make sure the figures addup. Power = Torque x rotational speed (conversion from rpm to SI units is required)


the DF140 is weak, pretty common knowledge... I think the correct comment would be that, being a small capacity high revving engine, they are very ‘peaky’. Hence prop selection is paramount for this engine. Get it wrong, and it can feel doughy and gutless. Get it right and they perform like the brilliant engine they are. They don't have the low-down grunt of a bigger cubic capacity engine, and certainly shouldn't be compared to V6's.

Marko,
I had the DF140 (original gear ratio) on a 6.1m (20ft) [real hull length] x 2.5m beam alloy bowrider that had a dry hull weight of ~850kg excluding motor,batteries & fuel. Add people and cargo and probably similar to what you have.

With the right prop she was very responsive and provided ~34 -35kn performance. This hull would be a lot less slippery than your glass hull too. Sure the zuke won’t provide the punch of the 150 E-TEC, but it’s what suits you best that counts.

If you go the 140A and sell the boat in a year or 2, you won’t get the extra 21% back due to the age of the boat. Sell it after 5 + yrs and you still won’t get the 21% back, but the benefits you would have obtained from it, and the newer technology donk, would/should mean it would become worth it. Then again, with a bit of pressure you might get the 2012 140 at an even better price, because it is pretty old stock!

Goodluck with the decision making.

PS. See there has been other replies re EPA data too – it’s just taken me a while to post J.

[Jarrah Jack]

Noelm, the DF140 being 128hp isnt a myth. Manufacturers have a 10% leeway up or down in advertising HP of outboards. Some motors have more HP than their sticker says, some have less. EG. Yamaha 150hp 4 stroke has 162HP. Etec 200HO has 217 or 218, I forget. The 4.2 lt Yamaha 225 HP has 238HP.
The Suzuki DF115 and DF140 are slugs. They are quiet and good on fuel, but pretty weak. Once you get to the V6's, then the Suzukis have some grunt. Been on the same model boat with twin DF115's and twin Yamaha F115's. Night and day. If Marko888 chooses a DF140 he will be disappointed in the performance no doubt.
If I was in the market for a 140-150hp outboard i'd be looking at the new Mercury 150 4 stroke which has a lot going for it. Light weight, big capacity so it will have good torque, and its cheap. Plus Mercury have the best selection of factory props available.

Rubbish. I recently went from a 115 merc 4 stroke ( yamaha power head) 80hrs to a 140 hp zuk and the difference is noticable. 10kph more speed and heaps more power out of the hole.

That is real world not someone elses boat, prop and motor setups.

[Marko888]

Thanks you for the excellent feedback.

Troll Control is a $150 option for the DF140A over here. It provides a panel, like a trim switch, which allows you to fine tune the idle speed in 50rpm increments from idle on up the 1200 rpm. There is a special tach to go with it if one gets it while rigging a new engine.

[Marko888]

Interesting thoughts on resale. I saw a used 2004 DF140 for sale, with supposed 500 hrs, for $4800 USD about a month ago. It sold in a few days. I can pick up the new 2012 for about $9000 USD.... Used DF140's are as rare as rocking horse sh&t around here! Resale will be a non issue!

[Noelm]

the DF140 is weak, pretty common knowledge. Seems like the pissing contest is with the people that own a Suzuki. As Noelm rightly says, everyone thinks whatever they bought is the best.
there would be no one as unbiased as me, if what I own has faults, I'll tell anyone, brand means jack to me, I buy on what I feel suits my needs.

[Marko888]

Surfing about here and found this thread from last year, so figured I'd offer an update.

I bought the DF140A and put 100 hrs on it last year. I'm very satisfied with the engine. The boat pops up on plane with ease, but does use some revs to do so, compared to the old V6. It sips fuel, and I lost only 3mph top speed compared to my old 150. It was propped a bit short, so I will go up 2" on pitch for this year, so expect to be within 1 mph of the 150 this season. Cheers

PS WOT was 66k...41mph. Expecting 70k with the bigger prop.

[AndrewB]

I have a 2007 model 140 very happy with it and know another bloke who did well over 2000hrs on his which was a couple of years older.
In my opinion if serviced well they will last very well.
Cant help with the 2 models.

[rodneyk]

Go the new 140 Suzi you will never regret it owned both 2011 & 2013 Later model was better just noticeable as for Merc BS where is the facts on 128 Hp crap there dreamin look at the numbers sold there very light and powerful motor but you make your own decision . I bagged them myself for years then bought one for a boat that suited that motor and was very glad I did it then bought another for my next boat .
Also have good resale which has to be taken into account Cheers Rod

[Moonlighter]

You know, the old rubbish about the 140 Zuke producing only 128hp is a classic example of one of those falsities that, if repeated loud enough and often enough, becomes "fact".

This myth was debunked many years ago, simply by reference to the facts. The U.S. EPA publishes the true, tested hp of all outboard engines it certifies for emissions on its website. I haven't bothered to look at the new 140A, but the old 140 was tested and certified at 138hp. Saw the spreadsheet with my own eyes.

But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good bit of mud slinging, eh, Stang, old buddy?

[Noelm]

I always found it interesting that all the Yamahas had much more HP than stated.

[ozynorts]

I always found it interesting that all the Yamahas had much more HP than stated.
They need something to help them keep up eh Noel..... ;)

[FisHard]

I've got a new 140a and love it. It is a small capacity motor that has to rev to make its grunt, but once you figure that out, it's a good thing. I reckon Suzuki should use a different throttle box to compensate.

[myusernam]

150 merc four.

[Nick H]

My mate has a DF140 2010 on a early model Alison 5.5 meter centre console. Plenty of go and low down power. I'm really impressed with the performance of the engine saying that I just bough a new 225 yamaha for my plate boat. I would go newer model for resale as you never know when your going to upgrade
Nick