ALKO vs roller rocker setup

[feral cat]

Just a question.
I've got a 660 noosacat fitted with 2 ALKO axles, is there anything i have to watch out for as in wear in rubber bush and whats acceptable and whats not, rust etc etc.
On another note my mate has a 2300 NC with roller rocker setup and his trailer sways a little on highway (can be a little uncomfortable) ,dosn't seem to tow as good as the ALKO setup.I must admit the ALKO setup is by far the better trailer ive towed as it just tucks in behind me and travels straight but does get a little bounce at times.
Has anyone had good or bad experiences with the ALKO setup and what would be your preference if you've had experience with both setups.
cheers
justin.

[Tinspo]

Hi Justin will follow your thread with interest as i have an Ali trailer with Alko axles under my new sailfish (new to me that is). Trailer is a 2000 model and has had no repairs and tows well. I spoke to the owner of sailfish about them recently having read some bad reports on old thread here. He said that in 20 years of building trailers he had stopped using them once for a year when he went to rockers. He believed they were far worse for the boat and trailer so went back to the Alko. He said the most important thing is that the axles are rated correctly for the weight being carried. If that was all good then they were fantastic.

Cheers,

Jeremy

[smclaren]

G'day Mate .... my ALKO's were pretty rusted out when I bought the boat. My mechanic tried to persuade me to go to leaf springs (can see rust, roadside emergency options, cheaper etc), but it would add min 8 inches to the overall height of the boat (not acceptable). So I put new ALKO'S on.

Make sure you pop off the dust covers off one side so you can flush them right out after use. I think some guys have put hose fittings on the top side to help flushing.

I also drowned my axles in a rust proof solution. Time will tell how long I get out of them. Would be good to get a minimum of 5 yrs out of them.

I haven't heard of any issues with the rubber torsion internals.

ALKO's are heaps better to tow with than leafs IMO.

Good luck.

[fisho64]

very difficult to compare "like for like", chances are that the trailer that sways has insufficient towball down force.
Roller rocker is good also-I have replaced the complete undercarriage on mine with roller rocker (3.4 tonne) and it tows spot on with about 5% (170kg) down force.
Having said that the torsions are much easier to set up but being non loadsharing must have 120% of the trailers load rating, hence dual 2 tonne axles will give you 3.3 tonnes.

There are many US imported trailers which are registered with an incorrect rating as the US does not have this rule

[No Excuses]

Interesting chat, all valid points so far the only thing I would disagree with is the sway of a trailer only coming from too little downward pressure, too much weight will have the same effect as the trailer is still unbalanced. I'm lead to believe that once the rubbers start to walk out of the torque tube on alkos they have reached the end of their life and being a throw away item (can't rebuild them) it's time to throw them in the bin. Not a cheap replacement. In saying that they will give a trailer a better ride.

[PB]

Interesting reading about the bad towing on the trailer with roller rockers, we fit both Alko IRS and Alko roller rocker suspension to our trailers and find no real difference between the two when being towed. we only use the IRS up to 2500kg as they are not load shearing and find they cant handle the extra load when the front or rear wheels are off the road. we can also get deep V hulls sitting lower on the roller rockers as we make our own Gull Wing Axles for them. We also have a set of Alko IRS at the shop that is over 15 years old and had a hard life on a trailer, we cut them open to see what it was like in side and they where fine, very little rust and rubbers still good.

[rexaway123]

I have my 2012 Noosacat 2300 on a torsion Alko rubber axle setup with about 190kg-200kg on nose and couldnt be happier with the stability during towing
I also use a weight distribution hitch towball like caravaners use and car does not bounce, move, sway nothing, highly recco for big rigs and only take 30 secs to put on and off

also have special tyres that are extra low profile TRAILERMAXX maxxis tyres rather than the fat light truck tyres normall we see on boat trailers..13 inch but pump up to 80-85 PSI with max load 900kg at 94PSI..

rig sits bit lower and no swish and sway and bounce just runs like a train behind the car

[ShaneC]

I am not a fan of the torsion axles. Had them on my cat trailer, granted they kept it lower to the ground, but break one any sort of distance from home and your in the poo. When i broke mine, I was told it would be an eight week wait for a replacement, which is obscene imho. When i built my new trailer i went roller rockers, hd springs and axles and 15 inch wheels instead of 13's. It is sooo much better. Mine is now 180mm higher on the trailer but bear in mind you can get turned axles to counter this a bit. And as far as I am aware, alko axles can generally only accomodate standard ford bearings so if you have a heavy boat that will one day pull you up. Ive now opted for hd, available and accessible over alko and dont plan on going back......

[fisho64]

Thats always been my issue with them also Shane, availability. Especially as we travel along way from town.
Bearings-ford bearings are only good for 1450kg I think so there must be other options.
The US style ones made here such as Transtyle use the yankee standard #84 spindle etc which certainly can carry the load ok

[No Excuses]

I had a 6.2 Kevlacat that I built the trailer for (steel). I had rocka rolls spring set up with a towball weight of about 160-170kg and it towed bloody sweet. Alko axles are good until they fail then it's big dollars and a 6-8 week wait.....

[feral cat]

Thanks for the reply's guys.
Interesting to hear your thoughts on both sides from people who had experience in both.I recently bought the 660 2 yr ago and the said he's just replaced the ALKO setup which cost the best part of 3k.It would roughly mean if they were the original ones he would of got roughly 15yrs use from them.(not bad)
Rexaway a can't agree more, the setup i've got definately sits behind me like its on rails. Theres also valid points here that my bro-inlaw might have to much ball weight which im sure he will address soon and then see the difference in ride.



smclaren i will look at the dust covers your talking about and see if i can at least have a look inside for any signs of rust, would hate to think its being eatin away from the inside first.

pb its a very valid point you have there with load sharing, the cat weighs over 3t so loadsharing i think would be benificial as to not have to much weight on one axle.
The other factor that no excuses has brought up is the cost factor. I can get a 4t rocker and axle setup for around $1600 then plus delivery.(aussie made not chinese shit)
I guess im more than happy with setup at the moment but hopefully i'll get a few more years yet.

rexaway have you put your 2300 over a bridge yet.Just curious.
cheers justin.

[rexaway123]

Yep it was 2920 free standing off car with about 240 l fuel on board only tho

i save about 140 kg of weight cause I have the upgrade option whole trailer ldx 2101 special import stainless tho too vs gal steel
high tensile and made specific for extreme salt resistance
http://stainless-steel-world.net/pdf/SSW_leanduplex.pdf

[feral cat]

Gees rexaway thats a sweet trailer allright mate and the weight of it at only 340kg's would bring your overall weight down for sure. Im just a little doubtfull on NC weights and ATM they put on trailers. Mine had an ATM of 2900 and yet on the bridge freestanding went 3200 with only 100ltr fuel (holds 500)how nc got away with that one is beyond me, im in process of sorting all this out.
cheers.

[No Excuses]

Sounds about right feral cat, I weighed my 6.2 Kevlacat with no gear and minimal fuel and it was a touch over 2800kg on its own (steel trailer).The figures you are quoting for the 660 looks about right. I know a bloke with a 2300 nc and it went nearly 3500kg full of fuel but no gear, scared the pants off him!

[rexaway123]

my ATM plate is 3200kg on their trailer

[feral cat]

I am not a fan of the torsion axles. Had them on my cat trailer, granted they kept it lower to the ground, but break one any sort of distance from home and your in the poo. When i broke mine, I was told it would be an eight week wait for a replacement, which is obscene imho. When i built my new trailer i went roller rockers, hd springs and axles and 15 inch wheels instead of 13's. It is sooo much better. Mine is now 180mm higher on the trailer but bear in mind you can get turned axles to counter this a bit. And as far as I am aware, alko axles can generally only accomodate standard ford bearings so if you have a heavy boat that will one day pull you up. Ive now opted for hd, available and accessible over alko and dont plan on going back......

Mate im curious how the IRS gave way and what happenned and how old do you think the axle was.

[fisho64]

my ATM plate is 3200kg on their trailer

technically Rex your trailer is non compliant-with non load sharing suspension the combined total capacity of the axles must be 120% of the trailer rating.
The lowest rated component of the complete axle set becomes the rating for that component.
4 times 900kg equals 3600kg divided by 120% comes to 3000kg
Your tyres should have a total load rating of 3840kg combined.

Maybe better at least have a look at the VIN plate and see rubber is listed on there?

[ShaneC]

Sorry feral cat I only just saw youre query regarding my post. In my case it wasnt the suspension that gave way it was a stub axle. Due to the trailer being a triaxle, and the axles only using standard ford bearings, I had no end of trouble when towing it long distances. Firstly most manufacturers recommend not using IRS for tri axles due to the twisting forces exerted when turning, and secondly the bearings were not up to the task of carrying a fully loaded 2700 NC. I have since custom built a new dual axle ally trailer with 6 tonne rocker suspension from Rogers Springworks, 64 mm square axles, 3 tonne bearings and 15 inch wheels and tyres which got a ATM of 4480 kg on the HVRAS certificate. I dont need any more than that as I have to go air brakes over 4.5 t which I aint doing. You need to be careful, as fisho64 has said I have seen a very new tri axle trailer with IRS suspension with 1450 kg axles rated at 4350 kg, which is 20% over the money if there is an accident or inspection. Im not sure who would be in the kaka but someone would certainly be tap dancing. I found my trailer with IRS bounced around a lot, the new trailer is brilliant by comparison, and with the heavier duty running gear, everything runs heaps cooler, faster and easier..... Sorry about the long post, just had a bit to say from experience.

[hilta1]

Hey shanec have you any photos of your roller rocker set up and any contact details for Rogers springworks? does anyone know how hard the stainless that noosa cat use is to get hold of? would stainless be better than alloy? cheers Mark

[ShaneC]

Ill try get some phots for you tomorrow. Rogers are in the phone book mate, I think (?) the guy to speak to was Mitch, very knowledgeable. Having seen the staino trailers, they just look light to me. Im not ragging on them, they are probably great but I just prefer stuff that seems a.bit stronger. Mine was built with 175x76 mm C section, welded back to back on weight bearing areas. Its mega strong but ended up pretty heavy.....

[fisho64]

Actually Shane, the 120% rule is only for dual non loadsharing-I think for tri axle its even higher (135%??) but cant be bothered hunting it out.
I have seen many imported trailers registered incorrectly here, fact is if a US trailer has 14" wheels (and hence probably 10" Kodiaks) they are 3500# axles.
In the US a pair of 3500# axles can be registered as 7000# or 3180kg but here it should be 120% capacity and therefore 2650kg.
Part of the reason is that many of these trailers are imported by local manufacturers who register them under the "manufacturers provision" which means only 1 in ???? need to be checked for licencing therefore they can register them for whatever they like.

[rexaway123]

the stainless that Wayne uses and I have in my trailer is grade 2101 and you cant get, he specially imports it from finland.

Specially made for extreme salt resistance and lighter high tensile strength so no need for big bulky beams like aluminium. mine still looks shiny like the day I got boat delivered
http://stainless-steel-world.net/pdf/SSW_leanduplex.pdf

[rexaway123]

General Properties
LDX 2101 is a low-nickel, nitrogen enhanced lean duplex stainless steel developed for general-purpose use. The austenitic-ferritic (duplex) structure of the alloy is balanced to approximately equal amounts of ferrite and austenite in the solution-annealed condition.
The high chromium and nitrogen content of LDX 2101, combined with an addition of molybdenum, provide very good resistance to localized and uniform corrosion. The duplex microstructure contributes to the alloys high strength and resistance to chloride stress-corrosion cracking. LDX 2101 possesses both superior strength and greater chloride stress-corrosion cracking resistance than conventional 300 series stainless steels.

The enhanced mechanical strength of LDX 2101 is far superior to conventional 300 series stainless steels enabling it to be used in thinner cross-sections which can provide significant cost savings to the end user.
LDX 2101 exhibits good abrasion and erosion resistance and can be fabricated using standard shop practices developed for duplex stainless steels.

[PB]

Very interesting reading about the LDX, It seems to tick a few boxes but as mentioned the finished product looks very light and flimsy, not saying it is just a general observation that many people will make. I think it could be a good replacement to galvanized mild steel but it doesn't have the sufficient weight saving to completely rule out aluminium.

[rexaway123]

yes very true i guess ... I did melt 3 brand new high tensile drill bits just trying to drill a 5mm hole in one of the beams though! so dont worry its very high strength

[PB]

On the drill bits, im not surprised you had trouble as an off the shelf drill bit has the wrong angle for drilling any grade of stainless. This is mainly because all stainless grades work harden when machined and formed.

[fisho64]

the stainless that Wayne uses and I have in my trailer is grade 2101 and you cant get, he specially imports it from finland.

Specially made for extreme salt resistance and lighter high tensile strength so no need for big bulky beams like aluminium. mine still looks shiny like the day I got boat delivered
http://stainless-steel-world.net/pdf/SSW_leanduplex.pdf

It really doesnt matter what stainless you have in your chassis if the running gear doesnt comply?

[soulfish]

Hi guys interesting reading..
fisho64 when you get time mate could you please post me the link to this 20% rule ,shane has mentioned it to me before but....I cant find it.
I have a noosacat triaxle ldx 2101 trailer with irs under my 2700...it tows like a dream ,sits lower on the road I have weighed it on bridge & it went 680kg with 2 spare tyres & hubs...compared to 960kg for gal steel & 1060kg for shanec alloy trailer which in all fairness is over engineered
I have 1450kg axles =4350 .....
main roads registered it 12 months ago (brand new) & only last week it had its first safety certificate issued....passed no problem...so I am keen to see if this 20% rule is true...not in anyway saying its not but I cant find any info..
You would think that if the compliance plate stamped on the trailer stated atm 4350 by the manufacturer ...then by law that is what it is...same as a tow rating on a vehicle ,it is what the manufacturer states no ifs or butts
cheers jason

[fisho64]

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/vsb_01_b.aspx#19

"All axles in a group must be interconnected by a load sharing suspension except in a close-coupled axle group (where the two axles in a group have their centres not more than one metre apart, three axles not more than 2 metres apart or four or more axles not more than 3.2 metres apart) provided that the load carrying capacity of each axle in the group and the wheels and tyres fitted to it is:



at least 120% of the load on that axle with the trailer at its ATM; and
at least equal to the load on that axle with the trailer at its ATM and any retractable axle retracted."



What is'nt clear is the brakes elsewhere it says that "the rated capacity of any axle cannot be greater than the lowest capacity of the various parts", but in theory your brakes shouldnt need 120% capacity for the same reason as a torsion axle does?

The triaxle 135% rating is actually a manufacturers rating though many torsion manufacturers dont recommend triaxle torsions

From Transtyles page

Capacity Allowing
When using for tandem axle trailers, you must allow for a 25% decrease in axle capacity.
Examp = two axles 2,200kg suit for 3,300kg ATM tandem trailer
When using for tri axle trailers, you must allow for a 35% decrease in axle capacity.
Examp = three axles 2,200kg suit for 4,300kg ATM tri axles trailer

[soulfish]

Cheers mate i'll look into it