Ciguatera fish poisoning Palm Beach Reef

[JB]

Hi all, just wanted to give everyone a heads up about Cig. I caught a 10-13kg spanish (estimated.. never weighted it will post pic u can make ur own call on size) from palm beach reef on Saturday and my parents , neighbours all have got Ciguatera fish poisoning. I haven't eaten any of it (feel really terrible) and just wanted to say even if you get a fish from palmy and think its safe (i.e not a monster and not from somewhere like hervey bay) it can still carry it.

Last time i'll be keeping one let alone giving it to friends and family. Feel bloody awful.

Jas100415

[Willo]

Yeh Mate ..Spaniards are always a risk but down this far ya think ya safe...!!!!!! But every 4 or 5 years ya hear of someone getting it ......Before I give any of mine away I cook a little bit up and taste test it it ....If I am still ok next day ..all good.. sort of Human guinea pig .....
Just about to taste test a couple now ..LOL..hope they werent related to yourrs....

[chris69]

The bigger the fish the more of a risk.

[daveo17]

is there any way to tell with out eating the fish?

[Back In Black]

is there any way to tell with out eating the fish?

My question as well daveo17?? Pretty damn worrying. I was always told never to touch bigger spanish north of Hervey Bay, but now the Gold Coast??

I told my wife at lunch time & she said she wont even risk it now, as we eat fish 2-3 times per week, & I think you can't touch fish for quite a while??

Willo- I can see the merit in what you do, but I wonder how much you need to ingest to get crook??

I assume spotties are OK?? Does anyone have a definitive answer on that one, as I'm going fishing on Friday, so knowing my luck I'll probably get a spanish now I have these doubts in my head!!

Tony

[Chimo]

Do I remember correctly someone on here said the people of Fiji feed a sample of suspect fish to their ants and if the ants eat it its OK.

Two points,
1 Does it work here with our local ants?
2 Are our ants smart enough to trust?

Cheers
Chimo

[Aussie123]

My question as well daveo17?? Pretty damn worrying. I was always told never to touch bigger spanish north of Hervey Bay, but now the Gold Coast??

I told my wife at lunch time & she said she wont even risk it now, as we eat fish 2-3 times per week, & I think you can't touch fish for quite a while??

Willo- I can see the merit in what you do, but I wonder how much you need to ingest to get crook??

I assume spotties are OK?? Does anyone have a definitive answer on that one, as I'm going fishing on Friday, so knowing my luck I'll probably get a spanish now I have these doubts in my head!!

Tony

The Spanish off Hervey Bay are the same fish that you catch here off Brisbane a few weeks later so it is the same risk.
Ciga does not disappear from the fish in that short distance.
It has always been recommended to not eat Spanish around 20kg and bigger as they are high risk but its just plain bad luck to strike it in a smaller sized fish.

[seawind8]

I had a mate whol caught a mild dose from spotties
Cheers

[Schulzy]

I have always been told it's more likely residential fish back in the day my grandfather caught three in platypus bay. The smallest one had ciguatera the two biggest were fine my grandmother still can't eat any bigger fish at all

[ifishcq1]

get the healthiest person in the family to try a small piece
a healthy individual may get a little bit nausious for a very short time (half an hour or less) if the fish has ciguatera
this method works with no ill effects
if you don't believe me, I will do the test for you
I have had it twice many years ago so I don't take it lightly
last time I couldn't eat any seafood for about a year and if you know me that is the worst thing that could happen since I have fish at least four meals a week then crabs or prawns another couple
I have eaten two 50kg spaniards and another well over thirty and thirty or so others in the past few years
my offsider gave the first piece to his dad before we ate any of the last big fish
cheers

[perko]

I had a mild dose from spotties caught in Hervey Bay years ago. We were on holidays and caught a heap and ate them every night for a week. My wife and I had terrible gastro and hot cold were reversed and numb lips etc. Back then we didn't know what was going on but looking back I guess it was Ciga. I don't risk it now. Just eat whiting, flathead, reefies and a few schoolies.

[Aussie123]

There is some really good reading about ciga in this document.
www.nt.gov.au/d/Content/File/p/Fishnote/FN41.pdf (http://www.nt.gov.au/d/Content/File/p/Fishnote/FN41.pdf)

Fish species implicated in ciguatera outbreaks in the Northern Territory and Queensland, including
outbreaks in other parts of Australia that have imported fish from these regions mostly include:
Barracuda Sphyraena jello
Chinaman fish Symphorus nematophorus
Cobia Rachycentron canadus
Coral cod Cephalopholis miniata
Coral trout Plectropomus spp.
Flowery cod Epinephelus fuscoguttatus
Groper Epinephelus lanceolatus
Paddle tail Lutjanus gibbus
Queenfish Scomberoides commersonnianus
Red bass Lutjanus bohar
Red emperor Lutjanus sebae
Spanish mackerel Scomberomorus commerson
Spotted mackerel Scomberomorus munroi
Sweetlip emperor Lethrinus miniatus
Trevally Caranx spp.

[ifishcq1]

if you take out chinamen and red bass that are banned so we can't take them anyway and third worst on the list is barracuda
put all the rest in a basket and divide them by the amount of meals eaten and the amount of actual cases and that leaves the odds of getting ciguatera way less than getting hit by a car, dying of bee sting or most things, almost up there with multiple lotto win
the weed that it comes from only grows in tropical waters particularly in spots of reef that have had major damage like cyclones or ship wrecks
I studied it extensively when I fished full time
cheers

[spelchek]

Out of interest, JB - how did you dress the spaniard? Steaks or fillets?

[Daintreeboy]

I've heard cats are very susceptible to Ciguatera......

[timddo]

Just feed the mother in law. Simple

[Willo]

Misses got up me this morning when she saw me
innocently feed some small scraps of the blue i was filleting to the dog........ before I had taste tested it ....LOL

[SandStorm]

Are those cig test kits available and affordable?

[manta man]

Do I remember correctly someone on here said the people of Fiji feed a sample of suspect fish to their ants and if the ants eat it its OK.

Chimo that was me mate. But it"s not ants, it"s Flies the cousies on these outer islands have been using this method for a very long time. Flies will not land on a poisonous fish. What they do, is just cut the Stomach content open. Whole fish is then placed on a board or table and just sit back and observe. Don't ask me why but as far as i know none of the Cousies have actually had Ciguatera. Some of you might think of it , as some sought of Witch Doctor Method but it does work. Personally i just cut a piece from the Backbone and feed it to the cat. See what happens. Speaking of Witch Doctor Medicine theirs a Plant, which is found quite commonly in QLD which will heal bad Leg Ulcers. Good Old Witch Doctor you can't beat it.

[Triple]

Straight from Wiki..

Scientific detection
Currently, multiple laboratory methods are available to detect ciguatoxins, including liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_chromatography-mass_spectrometry) (LCMS), receptor binding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receptor_binding) assays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assay), and neuroblastoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroblastoma) assays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assays)). Although testing is possible, in most cases, LCMS is insufficient to detect clinically relevant concentrations of ciguatoxin in crude extracts of fish.

Folk detection
In Northern Australia, where ciguatera is a common problem, two different folk science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_science) methods are widely believed to detect whether fish harbor significant ciguatoxin.
The first method is that flies will not land on contaminated fish.
The second is that cats display symptoms after eating contaminated fish.
A third, less common testing method involves putting a silver coin under the scales of the suspect fish. Only if the coin turns black, is it contaminated. It is not known whether any of these tests produce accurate results
On Grand Cayman island the locals will test barracuda by placing a piece of the fish on the ground and allowing ants to crawl on it. If the ants continue to move then the fish is safe to eat.

[Spaniard_King]

Are those cig test kits available and affordable?

There are 3 known strains of Ciga the US kit only covers 1... was about $30 to test 3 fish

[JB]

Fish were filleted and not steaked. I've got 2 lots of neighbours that have no energy and thier legs feel like they have been corked. The hands are very sensitive to cold temperature items and water (feels like freezer burn apparently) . It is a crazy thing, i'll give them a miss in the future (willo u can have mine lol) .

Not sure if i should notify fisheries or qld health to record it? With the large number of mackerel being caught atm i must have been unlucky to get the one with cig, makes u wonder if some smaller ones have it but its not concentrated enough to be noticed or identified?

[Watto79]

I believe Cigutera poisoning is cumulative, so it stays in your system and builds up over time..

Meaning the fish might not have to have a high level to make certain individuals (big fish eaters) sick unfortunately..

The straw that broke the camel's back so to speak..

Or the fish may have a very high level and be enough to make you very sick from the first instance!

I don't think you recover from it either, so once you have it you need to be VERY careful about what fish you eat..

Repeat doses has the potential to cause death..

It's not a very nice illness to be inflicted by that's for sure..

My best mates parents were one of the first cases in QLD many many years ago from a coral trout they won in a seafood tray raffle whilst holidaying in Cairns and were basically test subjects for this posioning as it was basically unknown back then..

I have found out most of this through my mate, his parents learnt the hard way unfortunately..

[Spaniard_King]

I believe Cigutera poisoning is cumulative, so it stays in your system and builds up over time..

Meaning the fish might not have to have a high level to make certain individuals (big fish eaters) sick unfortunately..

The straw that broke the camel's back so to speak..

Or the fish may have a very high level and be enough to make you very sick from the first instance!

I don't think you recover from it either, so once you have it you need to be VERY careful about what fish you eat..

Repeat doses has the potential to cause death..

It's not a very nice illness to be inflicted by that's for sure..

My best mates parents were one of the first cases in QLD many many years ago from a coral trout they won in a seafood tray raffle whilst holidaying in Cairns and were basically test subjects for this posioning as it was basically unknown back then..

I have found out most of this through my mate, his parents learnt the hard way unfortunately..

My Dose was in 2006!!
I did my time as per the health dept, ie no cold water fishfor 3 months and no warm water fish for 6 months.
We eat so much fish I would put myself in the high riskcategory (like 2-3 times a week) we have not suffered a reoccurrence so I for onedo not think it’s accumulative and I do think your body does pass it…eventually

[Watto79]

My Dose was in 2006!!
I did my time as per the health dept, ie no cold water fishfor 3 months and no warm water fish for 6 months.
We eat so much fish I would put myself in the high riskcategory (like 2-3 times a week) we have not suffered a reoccurrence so I for onedo not think it’s accumulative and I do think your body does pass it…eventually


It appears you could be quite right Spaniard King..

Maybe it is cumulative in the fish not ourselves..

Although the below states that it can remain in blood and tissue and have flair ups due to basically "stress" on the body..

clinical symptoms
After consumption of ciguatoxin contaminated fish, the onset of the first symptoms can be as short as 30 minutes for severe intoxications, while in milder cases onset may be delayed for up to 24 hours to occasionally 48 hours. The first symptoms can be either gastrointestinal or neurological in nature (e.g. circumoral tingling). Gastrointestinal symptoms usually last only a few days, while some neurological symptoms can take several days to develop. Ciguatera symptoms typically last for several weeks to several months. In a small percentage of cases (less than 5 percent), certain symptoms may persist for a number of years.
A combination of a few to more than 30 gastrointestinal, neurological and/or generalized disturbances have been reported. Gastrointestinal symptoms involving vomiting, diarrhoea, nausea and abdominal pain (>~50% of cases) typically occur early in the course of the disease and often, but not always, accompany the neurological disturbances. Neurological disturbances invariably occur in ciguatera and include tingling of the lips, hands and feet, unusual temperature perception disturbances where cold objects give a dry-ice sensation, and a severe localized itch of the skin (>~70 percent of cases). These symptoms and a profound feeling of fatigue (90 percent of cases) can occur throughout the illness. Muscle (>80 percent), joint (>70 percent) and teeth aches (>30 percent) occur to varying extents, and mood disorders including depression and anxiety (50 percent) occur less frequently. Severe cases can involve hypotension with bradycardia, respiratory difficulties and paralysis but deaths are uncommon (less than 1 percent according to Lehane, 2000). The low fatality rate (2 percent) appears to arise because fish rarely accumulate sufficient levels of ciguatoxin to be lethal at a single meal, perhaps because fish succumb to the lethal effects of higher ciguatoxin levels (Lewis, 2001).
Lehane and Lewis (2000) noted that most cases of CFP in the Pacific involved the consumption of fish containing 0.1-5 nmol P-CTX-1/kg, which is equivalent to about 0.1-5 µg/kg of fish flesh.
persistence and recurrence of symptoms
Neurological disturbances usually resolve within weeks of onset, although some symptoms may persist for months or even years. Symptoms such as pruritus, arthralgia and fatigue can also persist for months or years. Analysis of ciguatoxins in blood samples suggests that the toxin can be stored in adipose tissue and that symptoms may recur during periods of stress, such as exercise, weight loss, or excessive alcohol consumption. Sensitivity to alcohol may also persist for years after the first attack (Lehane, 2000).

I have attached the link to where the above information came from, should tell you everything you could ever want to know about cigutera posioning..

http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5486e/y5486e0q.htm


Just skip through the "over the head" stuff there is also alot of usesful info contained within the pages!

Hope it helps someone..

[Willo]

My Dose was in 2006!!
I did my time as per the health dept, ie no cold water fishfor 3 months and no warm water fish for 6 months.
We eat so much fish I would put myself in the high riskcategory (like 2-3 times a week) we have not suffered a reoccurrence so I for onedo not think it’s accumulative and I do think your body does pass it…eventually


Gazz..... think it was the Johnnie Walker Black that helped you rid your system of it ......L...LOL

[Daveje]

Jb bugger to hear about that can understand slightly how you would feel. I've been giving plenty of mackerel away, think your doing a good gesture until you get unlucky with a fish with cig. Would be interesting to try some of the tests mentioned above ie ants and flies on the fish fillets you have left to see if they are true. If they do work it could potentially prevent someone reading from cig in the future, or if they don't people know to discredit from your experience having known cig fish. Might help you feel a bit better, turn something bad into a good thing.

[JB]

Thanks all, i'll obviously be much more careful in the future and either not keep anything to big or just stick to the spotties in smaller sizes. I'm going to try the fly thing today.. let u know how it goes. Just hope the neighbours cat doesn't eat any while i'm doing the experiment lol.

[Cheech]

Thanks all, i'll obviously be much more careful in the future and either not keep anything to big or just stick to the spotties in smaller sizes. I'm going to try the fly thing today.. let u know how it goes. Just hope the neighbours cat doesn't eat any while i'm doing the experiment lol.

Will be interesting to see the results. Maybe try the and thing as well.

[Giffo65]

You will only know if the fly test works, if you have a piece of fish know to be infected with cig and a clean piece as test samples.What if you have dumb flies ?

[RayLamp]

Crap, I've caught and eaten a few from up FNQ.

I can't remember where I saw it, but I can recall it being written somewhere that you can get a tingling feeling in your hands if you touch affected flesh from cig poisoned fish. Not the reverse symptoms, just a pins and needles type sensation. I don't know if you have to already have some cig in your system for this to work though.

[Daveje]

Yeah RayLamp, I've heard that one aswell from my wife's cousin who eats and catches a load of mackerel and has done for many years. He said that he gets it or has gotten it on occasions (can't remember which one) when he cleans school mackerel, of all things. He mainly eats only Spanish these days though.

[mattooty]

JB, did you end up trying the fly method?

[Chimo]

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/lifestyle/beaches-and-fishing/mackerel-season-serves-up-poisoning-to-a-burleigh-man/story-fnk744sw-1226828970409

[marto78]

It makes you wonder if there have been larger then usual algae blooms somewhere up north in the last 12 months.

Has there ever been a tag and release program on mackarel to determen how far they actually travel?

Would it be possible that these fish are coming down from as far north as Cardwell where cyclone Yasi hit?

[conco46]

I caught 3 Spaniards 2 weeks ago, 1 @ 10kg 1 @ 12kg and a small 6kg, me and family ate them nearly every night, about 5-6 times a week plus and couple of lunches, I was eating very large portions (cause it was delicious ), I got runny bum 1 morning but it has been going around and it wasn't bad, so don't know if it was fish related & normally get runny bum now and then but thats more VB related haha

bit worried about keeping them now and feeding kids.
what happens if you catch it? are u bed ridden for a while?
how long until u can go back to work?

[gr hilly]

if you saw how crook the bloke was in the Logan Hospital you chuck THEM BACK.

Hilly

[Spaniard_King]

I caught 3 Spaniards 2 weeks ago, 1 @ 10kg 1 @ 12kg and a small 6kg, me and family ate them nearly every night, about 5-6 times a week plus and couple of lunches, I was eating very large portions (cause it was delicious ), I got runny bum 1 morning but it has been going around and it wasn't bad, so don't know if it was fish related & normally get runny bum now and then but thats more VB related haha

bit worried about keeping them now and feeding kids.
what happens if you catch it? are u bed ridden for a while?
how long until u can go back to work?

A day or so, just like a bad dose of food poisoning with the spewin and sh!tin

[Mr Squiggles]

Do I remember correctly someone on here said the people of Fiji feed a sample of suspect fish to their ants and if the ants eat it its OK.

Two points,
1 Does it work here with our local ants?
2 Are our ants smart enough to trust?

Cheers
Chimo
I posted up a while ago about this but it was Vanuatu, not Fiji.
We were catching a fair range of fish & were giving most to the locals on the property we were on & the ant test was done to all fish.
Our skipper, a great bloke called Alfred, had got the disease twice & did not want a third bout that's for sure.
Mr. S

[Chimo]

Thanks Mr S.

Back to the two questions:

1 Does it work here with our local ants?
2 Are our ants smart enough to trust?

Cheers
Chimo

PS Maybe you could do a test? ( You dont have to eat the fish just see if the ants do avoid some!)

[WertzGoldCoast]

Does anyone know the prevalence of Cig in the fish? Is it like a 1 in 50 chance or less or more?

Smaller ones should be pretty safe?

[gr hilly]

get the healthiest person in the family to try a small piece
a healthy individual may get a little bit nausious for a very short time (half an hour or less) if the fish has ciguatera
this method works with no ill effects
if you don't believe me, I will do the test for you
I have had it twice many years ago so I don't take it lightly
last time I couldn't eat any seafood for about a year and if you know me that is the worst thing that could happen since I have fish at least four meals a week then crabs or prawns another couple
I have eaten two 50kg spaniards and another well over thirty and thirty or so others in the past few years
my offsider gave the first piece to his dad before we ate any of the last big fish
cheers
let the healthiest bloke get crook and the tell him he's bared from eating fish for 6 months ill let him watch me eat snapper flathead and whiting he will love you im sure.
Hilly
i

[wayno60]

chimo,
Im heading out wed night/thur morning so if i get any ill test the theory....

[nathank]

im a bit crook untill lunch on thursday, (sick of work and the crap weather on the weekend) seeya out there wayno.. im thinking of dodging the mermaid/palmbeach crowds though

[wayno60]

I hear ya brother... was thinking of the bait grounds straight out the front, then go from there....

[TheRealAndy]

I posted up a while ago about this but it was Vanuatu, not Fiji.
We were catching a fair range of fish & were giving most to the locals on the property we were on & the ant test was done to all fish.
Our skipper, a great bloke called Alfred, had got the disease twice & did not want a third bout that's for sure.
Mr. S

I was in Noumea just recently. They call it "The Itch" over there, which is the rough translation. Apparently the do the ant test as well.

[wayno60]

this morning I got two and this is the result...

well the ants like it..

[TheRealAndy]

FWIW, in noumea they were saying they get "the itch" when coral is spawning, so at that particular time of year they dont go fishing much. Not sure if there is anything in that. May just be folklore like that ant test.

EDIT. FWIW I asked a teacher in noumea if there was another name for "The Itch", she said no but the scientific name is Ciguatera. I had suspected the whole time the locals were referring to the same thing but had a different local name for it.

[Chimo]

So Wayno60 did you eat the other half?

[Back In Black]

FWIW, in noumea they were saying they get "the itch" when coral is spawning, so at that particular time of year they dont go fishing much. Not sure if there is anything in that. May just be folklore like that ant test.

EDIT. FWIW I asked a teacher in noumea if there was another name for "The Itch", she said no but the scientific name is Ciguatera. I had suspected the whole time the locals were referring to the same thing but had a different local name for it.

Interesting thing is there is a lot of coral spawn around here at the moment??

Tony

[wayno60]

not yet but it will on the menu over the weekend...

[nathank]

FWIW, in noumea they were saying they get "the itch" when coral is spawning, so at that particular time of year they dont go fishing much. Not sure if there is anything in that. May just be folklore like that ant test.

EDIT. FWIW I asked a teacher in noumea if there was another name for "The Itch", she said no but the scientific name is Ciguatera. I had suspected the whole time the locals were referring to the same thing but had a different local name for it.

Not sure if its the same thing but i know at times over in thailand or fiji i have been snorkeling and you get really itchy.. I have had it happen heaps of times and sometimes you can put up with it and othertimes it makes you get out of the water.. I got told it was sealice..

[murf]

Apparently NSW pros are now restricted to sending sub 10kg Spanish to the markets now after a couple of cases of cig in nsw. Boat hog tells me Sydney fish markets only take smaller than 10kg Spanish from Qld too so maybe NSW has been added?

[hakuna]

Ciguatera advice to fishers on mid north and far north NSW coastThe NSW Food Authority has received notification of four ciguatera food poisoning cases resulting from the consumption of a large Spanish Mackerel (over 10kgs) caught by a licensed fisher on Chaos Reef, South East of Evans Head NSW.
This incident follows recent reports of ciguatera poisoning to Queensland Health authorities, reportedly following the consumption of a Spanish Mackerel caught on the Gold Coast.
The NSW Food Authority advises fishers that consumption of Spanish Mackerel above 10kgs (as advised by NSW industry experts) represents an increased risk of ciguatera poisoning.



NEWSCAST

an information bulletin for recreational fishers from DPI

March 2014

[randell]

Another 17 cases of food poisoning in Townsville.
http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/news/stricken-by-fish-poisoning/story-fnjfzs4b-1226855439893

randell

[mattooty]

The Evans Head one is bullsh!t. It was food poisoning from a fish not being iced for hours and hours after capture, a few people got sick (staff) and the bloke that caught it (a head chef) then went and bought another from the local co-op and supposedly claimed hot/cold reversal. And it was a reef called Riordans not The Kahurs (commonly mis-referenced as Chaos)

[randell]

Care for some fish n chips? http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/news/crumbed-fish-lands-man-in-icu/story-fnjfzs4b-1226858634027 randell

[Camhawk88]

That is why the F&C shops up here usually only deal in grey Macks.
Most likely one fish was responsible for the 17 cases. Has the potential to ruin them.

[soggyocto]

FYI
If someone hasn't already mentioned it, I believe there is a ciguatera test kit available called cigua-check. Might be worth the money

[mattooty]

Soggyocto, I did a bit of a research on this a while ago and found that most kits are one use only and were around the $30 mark from memory. Makes a pretty exxy day if you get 5 spaniards to test them all.