buying new 50hp 4s or etec

[sinka]

Hi
I AM LOOKING TO REPOWER MY 435 HORNET TROPHY and would like some advice on which way to good. Not really price driven just want best motor for boat . I do some trolling but mainly used to get from a to b. My only concern with 4s is are they happy running wot for long periods. Currently running 2002 50hp 2s johno has been a gem but I'm guessing any motor would be an improvement compared to the old johno

Regards
Sinka

[Spaniard_King]

Sinka, Most modern 4 strokes will handle high rpm for long periods if they are setup right and you use FCW engine oil

[oldie]

4stroke as the etec resale is not so good just do the research

[solemandownunder]

Hi
I AM LOOKING TO REPOWER MY 435 HORNET TROPHY and would like some advice on which way to good. Not really price driven just want best motor for boat . I do some trolling but mainly used to get from a to b. My only concern with 4s is are they happy running wot for long periods. Currently running 2002 50hp 2s johno has been a gem but I'm guessing any motor would be an improvement compared to the old johno

Regards
Sinka

G'day Sinka....what is the motivation for change...economy maybe ?

Cheers, Ray.

[sinka]

Mate johno now 13yrs old and as I said to touch wood it has been a gem yes loud Smokey and rattles like hell but runs perfect just think it's time for an update. Not really worried about resale just what would be best option for boat. I have even been told to buy a new 2stroke but not real keen on that

[Chimo]

Hi Sinka

Odds are that yours will run as well for another 13 yrs. If it smokes when you start it its getting good lubrication and your running TCW3 oil so why don't you invest the money you were going to spend on a new motor and earn some interest on it and keep what you have. New motors won't put up with our new improved fuel when its a few months old like you present motor will either. Get it serviced by a good Jonno / Rude tech and go fishing with money in the bank. I would be surprised if the fuel savings on a 50 between what you have now and whatever you might buy would save you more than the cost of a couple of cup of coffee per trip anyhow.

Cheers
Chimo
PS All my Rudes are even older than yours by the way.......................

[Spaniard_King]

Chimo, how can he not save money when 30-50% of the fuel he now burns goes straight out the exhaust without making any power contribution??

How do you recon your 2 strokes would fair after a days Heavy tackle trolling on the wide grounds?? Would you carry enough fuel for that?

[STUIE63]

If you want to upgrade then go the four stroke in a 4 cylinder. But I tend to agree with Chimo your motor is not that old. My reasoning for not going the etec is it is a 2 cylinder motor and they don't idle as smooth as having more cylinders.

[Goodoo haven]

Mate johno now 13yrs old and as I said to touch wood it has been a gem yes loud Smokey and rattles like hell but runs perfect just think it's time for an update. Not really worried about resale just what would be best option for boat. I have even been told to buy a new 2stroke but not real keen on that

Mate, I'd be going with a Tohatsu TLDI 50hp. They are the ducks guts.

[Chimo]

H Garry

Yes I would probably be OK as I just turn one motor off. Your right 2 strokes do gulp it down around idle and at low revs but not too bad going A to B or if you turn one off and increase the revs on the other one.

Anyhoo doing the maths replace two well behaved, happy to drink crap fuel, smokey on start-up but fine after that, reliable, 115HPs, for say $30 K that won't handle crap old ULP and don't smoke at start up and I figure I'm just $30 k down with a bit better economy, more expensive servicing, dearer spark plugs, more attractive for thieves etc I've probably left a few things out so guys feel free to contribute.

Cheers
Chimo

PS Garry has Peter got in touch about his 75HP Honda yet?

[Spaniard_King]

Your probly right chimo, there fine if you only want to get them out 1 or 2 times a year :)

[WalrusLike]

Regarding the 2 strokes gulping at idle...,,

My 115 seems to be just as economical at idling type revs as at speed. Using my Garmin inline fuel flow meter, it seems that the most economical way to do a trip for me is either at 3 knots, 23knots or 30 knots.

It could be that the idling type flow is under-registering at low flow rates but it seems reasonably accurate (until just lately.,,)

Just adding in my limited experience.

[Chimo]

WL

Interesting figures.
Do you have numbers at around 6kn?
What prop are you running too please.?
Is your motor carb or DI?
Have you worked out what your fuel use is over all per hour of running the motor. ie lts for X hrs running?

Thanks

Cheers
Chimo

[WalrusLike]

WL

Interesting figures.
Do you have numbers at around 6kn?
What prop are you running too please.?
Is your motor carb or DI?
Have you worked out what your fuel use is over all per hour of running the motor. ie lts for X hrs running?

Thanks

Cheers
Chimo

It's carb I think... Yammie 115 Saltwater 2 stroke.

Prop is the Yammie 3 blade 17K

6 knots is a bugger for me.... My hull speed seems to be about 3-4.... Ie it is smallest bow wave and easiest pushing. At 6 knots its a bigger wave and not economical. 5.75 metre boat.

As for overall fuel per hour... dunno. I don't track it closely. I just know from watching the real time economy figure that those speeds seem to give best economy. Maybe the 30 is more like 28-30 depending on conditions.

[rodneyk]

Had a 435 h/trophy myself 40 4 stroke yam carby it went fine . Ive been told no 50 yammys in country till feb 2014 personally would put a four stroke on if you are spending the money not bagging etec as all two strokes need oil ( just more money ) 40 suzi has biggest block I think but go with the best dealer in your area . cheers Rod

[Chimo]

WL

Thanks

Cheers
Chimo

[Spaniard_King]

For those that want to know

http://www.animatedengines.com/twostroke.html

Bottom paragraph says it all (for carby and EFI engines)

[STUIE63]

I agree Gary but not for DFI 2 strokes

[myusernam]

tohatsu 50hp poverty pack (all manual) much smoother because 3 xyl. $4300 brand new. goes very hard. very basic service requirements.

[billfisher]

It might pay to consider the extra weight of a 4 stroke. It can affect the trim of a small boat like yours quite a bit.

[Spaniard_King]

It might pay to consider the extra weight of a 4 stroke. It can affect the trim of a small boat like yours quite a bit.

5 kg difference from a 50 Johnson 2 stroke to a 50 Honda. Is 5 kg going to change the boat that much ??

Have a look here http://outboards.findthebest.com/d/h/50

The Honda has it hands down

[billfisher]

5 kg difference from a 50 Johnson 2 stroke to a 50 Honda. Is 5 kg going to change the boat that much ??

Have a look here http://outboards.findthebest.com/d/h/50

The Honda has it hands down

Yes, but you happened to have picked the lightest 4 stroke in its class with the Honda (and most expensive I think). Also a 50 4 stroke won't perform as well as a 50 2 stroke, so often you have to go a bit higher in hp with a 4 stroke.

A Yamaha 50 & 60hp or example weighs 119 kg so here we are talking about 25 kg extra weight over a two stroke.

[Spaniard_King]

Yes, but you happened to have picked the lightest 4 stroke in its class with the Honda (and most expensive I think). Also a 50 4 stroke won't perform as well as a 50 2 stroke, so often you have to go a bit higher in hp with a 4 stroke.

A Yamaha 60hp or example weighs 119 kg so here we are talking about 25 kg extra weight over a two stroke.

So you have Priced a new Honda lately and can give us all the run down on what engines go for what???

I just recently put a 225 Honda on a customer boat and I beat the Yammy price by $700 and I didn't need to ask for a price I had to beat!

Oh and the 60 Honda will knock the socks off the Yammy and only @ 109KG as well

[billfisher]

So you have Priced a new Honda lately and can give us all the run down on what engines go for what???

I just recently put a 225 Honda on a customer boat and I beat the Yammy price by $700 and I didn't need to ask for a price I had to beat!

Oh and the 60 Honda will knock the socks off the Yammy and only @ 109KG as well

Yes thats all well and good but my point was that 4 strokes can weigh significantly more than a 2 stroke and this can be a problem with small craft.

As to price did look at a Honda 90 and they were going for around 15K - ie quite a bit more than other clean tech engines at around the 12 K mark. I'm in a similar situation as the original poster with a twenty year old, reliable two stroke Tohatsu 90. Bur I will just keep it till it dies. It doesn't make much financial sense upgrading.

[astro66]

how much would a 50hp Honda cost fitted ? got me curious :P

[Spaniard_King]

15K, someone was looking to make a killing. It's very hard to compare pricing until you are comparing apples with apples. i.e full fitup with options priced acordingly

[ifishcq1]

I just got back from a bbq and had this same discussion, one goose was giving me grief about me going all 4 strokes or etec
my explanation was simple my barra boat had a 40 2stroke and I would get an average of 38km for a 25ltr tank I upgraded to a 60 4stroke and I get 70+ km for a tank full
On a normal day in the big boat with a 225Honda I use around 160ltr at 1.3km/ltr pushing a 30ft boat
My mate has a 20ft Nerus with a 200hp Johno it uses over 230ltr on the same run
in simple terms I can do a lot more kms without carrying extra tanks which is important to me given the places we go and the distance travelled
I also had a 25etec which was way beyond a standard 2 stroke and it idled much smoother than even 3 cylinder 2strokes and only used half the juice that my 25 yam did on the same boat
I may not gain the money difference in a year or so but the ability to travel further is my biggest win plus the bonus of quiet and less smoke
I would never go back to standard 2 strokes again and having run Etecs, Honda, Mercs and Yammies I would pick the 4strokes ahead of the Etec with the Honda edging out the others
in the 50hp class the Honda was 97kg a stand alone motor while the others including the etec were detuned 60hp at 109kg or more
I was sponsored to fish a barra comp by the local quinny mob at the time who also had honda
I was given the brand new top of the line hornet 435 with the 50hp honda
it wasn't quite as quick as the same boat with a two stroke on the back and it was only marginal
but we never had to waste time refueling over the whole weekend where the other boat did
I am no longer sponsored by a Honda dealer, now Yammy and in the 50hp class I would still take the Honda over all the others and the Yammy second

Cheers

[Noelm]

I wonder when this 4 stroke is not as powerful as a 2 stroke thing will go away (if ever), and how heavy a 4 stroke is (in some HP maybe) Honda have always been perceived as being the most expensive, the Suzuki 140 is actually only 128HP, all these Internet myths just keep on living, it must be just about time for them to die?

[ifishcq1]

Noel you're spot on
they are the same power but it shows differently
most 2s are a little quicker through the range and at top end there is no real difference
and the weight thing is less of a factor as time goes by
I think the only ones who don't like 4st have never had them, do small distances or
don't use their boats very often
cheers

[Spaniard_King]

H Garry

Yes I would probably be OK as I just turn one motor off. Your right 2 strokes do gulp it down around idle and at low revs but not too bad going A to B or if you turn one off and increase the revs on the other one.

Anyhoo doing the maths replace two well behaved, happy to drink crap fuel, smokey on start-up but fine after that, reliable, 115HPs, for say $30 K that won't handle crap old ULP and don't smoke at start up and I figure I'm just $30 k down with a bit better economy, more expensive servicing, dearer spark plugs, more attractive for thieves etc I've probably left a few things out so guys feel free to contribute.

Cheers
Chimo

PS Garry has Peter got in touch about his 75HP Honda yet?


Chimo, No I haven't herd anything from him??

[stevej]

I have a 435 non trophy model but with added on decks batteries etc

it has a 40ho 2 stroke 3 cylinder Yamaha and is the minimum power you would want.
I tired a 50hp Honda on it when a mate sold his hull but kept the engine as it was relatively new and was put on his new boat

it was border line wether it was comparable or worse then my 40hp 2 stroke, top speed was the same but had to move forward to get up on the plane at times

[mitch_wahoo]

A mate of mine just put a new 50 honda on his 435 hornet trophy and it's crap, he hates it. With 4 of us in the boat it struggled to get on the plane and that's after it was run in and with a se300 foil fitted. And with the new blast technology if you hold the throttle on full all the time it chews twice as much fuel. But if you back it off just a touch the fuel halves. Before the Honda it had a 40hp 2 stroke yammy on it and it flew.

[Spaniard_King]

You can throw any outboard on a boat and say it's crap if it's not setup correctly, Did either of you in the 2 posts above check to see what the WOT rpm was

[FisHard]

You can throw any outboard on a boat and say it's crap if it's not setup correctly, Did either of you in the 2 posts above check to see what the WOT rpm was

Good point. A mate has a 4.5m plate boat with a 50 Honda (he bought the rig used) and he hated it to start with too. After a new smaller prop from Solas, he now loves it, goes like a dream. Before the prop, he was seriously looking at upgrading horsepower.

[ifishcq1]

Hi Mitch
just because a bloke fits a motor to your boat it doesn't mean he knows what the best position is for that boat given all the variables
if it isn't test run and the set up fine tuned you might as well have done it yourself
when I went from the 2st to the 4st on the haines it was set up at the shop I was a bit disapointed until I fitted a tacho and checked the running height of the motor in the water with my regular load
I had to lift the motor 2holes and the prop that came on the 4st was too small
after a couple of runs down the river it is pretty well sorted
the difference in getting the revs in the optimum range is unbelievable 1" of pitch is about 200 revs and 1" of height can add over 100 revs which can turn a pig into prize
Now I am stoked with all aspects of the motor I now cruise at 45km doing just on 4,000revs

cheers mate

[stevej]

I didn't say it was crap, I said under the circumstances I experienced that was the result

the engine was mounted so the cav plate was riding on top same as the 40hp Yamaha was.
had a basic tacho off ebay
Honda revved to 5700
Yamaha revved to 5400
top speed was round 25 kn
take of was poor on the Honda and required me to shift weight forward to get up on the plane in a reasonable distance, the Yamaha would plane quickly if both of us were sitting at the rear

the trophy may be different as the driver is a few ft forward of a tiller steer setup like mine
I went to the effort as I was considering a new 4 stroke for mine, but its sold and new owner picks it up next week
I now have a cruisecraft explorer500 now taking up the driveway space

[mitch_wahoo]

It was all set up correctly by the honda mechanic. Including the nmea hooked up to the sounder. Not sure of the wot revs but the Honda tech has been in the boat.

I'm not bashing Hondas at all. I'd own one. Just saying it might not be enough grunt for this boat in particular.

[davo]

Don't forget out of all the 50HP 4 strokes the Honda has a lot less engine displacement to the others. I know the others are a bit heavier but I think they would have a lot more torque than the Honda.

[sinka]

Thanks guys some good food for thought. I must say my main concern is the extra wait of 4s and also will a 50 4s have enough grunt to pull boat out off hole quickly. I think these boats are under powered and should be rated to a 60 or 70. With 2-3 guys on board 60lt live tank full, fuel tank full, all gear and boat also has side console the wait really starts to mount. Really don't want to spend 10k on motor that will struggle and not give much better fuel econ when current motor doing job fine all be it without great fuel economy. I have always been to told better to be slightly over powered as this will be less stress om motor and give far greater feul economy. Hmmm what to do

[billfisher]

You could get a DI 2 stroke, ie an ETEC or Tohatsu TLDI 50 hp, but as others have said 13 years is not old for a motor and there is no pressing need to change it.