Quality welds- you be the judge

[timddo]

Recently had some welding done by a trades person. This quality as its best.

95581
95582


Is this standard for alloy welding. I was expecting to see fish scales at the joins, not grind out shit.

[Matt76]

Yeah that looks a bit ordinary. What was the guys trade? Im guessing his main line of work isnt aluminum.

[timddo]

Yeah that looks a bit ordinary. What was the guys trade? Im guessing his main line of work isnt aluminum.

Actually marine fabrication .

[Apollo]

Maybe he should find another line of work!

[burleygu]

If you wernt happy with it? Did you pay for it? And did you question it? If these welds are on a canopy rocket launcher etc. There has to be good penetration on both surfaces to make a strong weld other wise they will crack . . . eventually. In your first picture where the weld is gappy up top it looks as if that's where the weld started as the material was cold Then he has better penetration further down the weld as the material heats up. Some welders are funny with aluminium. My experience has been that I heat up the surfaces which Im welding Which gives you a hot weld from the start resulting in more consistency and better penetration.

[Jackinthebox]

Pretty bloody average!

Most welders are crap at ally & stainless as they are only used to doing 10mm thick mild steel, etc. This guy should be a bit better than that though seeing as he is in the marine fab biz.

Are those sections under any stress or weight? If they are just to hang some stuff off like sounders, or brackets on rails, etc, they should be fine.

Cheers,

Mick.

[timddo]

I was intending to mount some antena on them as a fact i may consider otherwise.
Honestly I was expecting fish scale welds as its a show piece.

[Schulzy]

Why didn't you get some one to tig it up?

[Shark Poker]

I will shoot one specific question: On the second photo, where the weld has been sanded back... Is there a weld on the other side?
In any case can you show the overall job please in another photo
Pauly :)

[MrNanks]

Mate that honestly isn't up to standard. You may as well have kept the "show price money" in your pocket and done a home job.
I would take it back and ask to if they think it represents their companies standards. I would hope not and the owner (hopefully not the welder) should sort it out . Good luck and let us all know if the outcome isn't satisfactory. The power of a forum may help too.

Cheers

[Shark Poker]

Timmdo, why don't you tell us the story (without naming anyone) and you will get better feedback and suggestions I am sure.
Otherwise this thread is going to be pathetic.
Was this done on up on the trailer boat for $20? Or was it part of an organised and designed fabrication?

[trymyluck]

If you wernt happy with it? Did you pay for it? And did you question it? If these welds are on a canopy rocket launcher etc. There has to be good penetration on both surfaces to make a strong weld other wise they will crack . . . eventually. In your first picture where the weld is gappy up top it looks as if that's where the weld started as the material was cold Then he has better penetration further down the weld as the material heats up. Some welders are funny with aluminium. My experience has been that I heat up the surfaces which Im welding Which gives you a hot weld from the start resulting in more consistency and better penetration.

Tim you may be right. Looks like an apprentice may have been given the job. I'd be taking it back and getting redone and if he won't then advertise his quality of work on here.

[tunaticer]

Poor workmanship to offer that work, poor ethics to take your money for that effort and poor skills with aluminium to get that result.
Aluminium is actually very easy to weld once the prep and the settings are right, it is not a black art at all.

[CruiserV8100]

Looks like my Stessco with that welding and I've almost sunk 3 times due to dodgy welds..

[Matt76]

Actually marine fabrication .

Haha whoa, then yes I'd be a bit upset too. I'm a sheety by trade and am not too bad at ally but am sure I could do a lot better than that! Good on the company for giving (hopefully) the apprentice a go, but they should not have let that leave the factory. Regardless of how strong it may be, it will never be a good advertisement for their business.

Also to be honest I wouldn't take it back to get fixed. I would cut my losses and take it somewhere else.

[timddo]

Haha whoa, then yes I'd be a bit upset too. I'm a sheety by trade and am not too bad at ally but am sure I could do a lot better than that! Good on the company for giving (hopefully) the apprentice a go, but they should not have let that leave the factory. Regardless of how strong it may be, it will never be a good advertisement for their business.

Also to be honest I wouldn't take it back to get fixed. I would cut my losses and take it somewhere else.


Not an apprentice as its a one man business. I've live with it till I save enough for another one.

[wayno60]

For an alloy welder he'd makes a good chippy.....if it was done right there would be no reason the grind it back.....

[wags on the water]

Maybe old mate was wearing this.....

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[hungry6]

Timmy, those weld looks hell strong as !!! LOL.
But to be honest, they looks SHITE!!!! In engineering, performance take precedent over form, maybe this is what he's working on. LOL.

[Greg001]

OMG I'd be embarrassed to give that to a customer. Actually I couldn't give that to a customer and it's embarrassing to anyone who knows what there doing.
I'm an Alloy welder and had my own business for years. I'd take it back and query the strenght of the welds and let him know your not convinced it will hold and ask him to repair it at no cost.
Greg

[bigpat]

Mate, we are steel fabricators, weld mild steel, stainless and ally. That is simply unacceptable, no ifs, buts or maybes. Get some pics from a boatyard or the net, of similar frames, and show them the standard that you expect. You want them bound right back and re-welded, and NO grinding afterwards. If they refuse, just offer to give back the frame for a full refund. No need to lose your cool, just purely business....

Though I am not a welder by trade qualification, but I can tell that they are cold welds. Ok they might not be flash with a TIG, but then just MIG it!

[Shark Poker]

And sometimes the customer gets better than they deserve. They really do.

Possibly in this case as well, as timmdo has given no further info, suggestions or requests for improvement, further explanation or reply to specific questions.
He might be frustrated, and I do not expect one should like that result.
I can fix and upgrade this over a coffee on a Sat morning, but that was not the question was it?
Pauly

[timddo]

Pauly

The story is..

1. I showed the welder some pics and ask for a quotation
2. Accept the quotes and fabrication begins
3. End product.
4. Looking for another welder to rectify problem, not much luck so far.
5. The rod holders don't line up, different angles.
6. Wasn't happy but paid to get the boat back and importantly go fishing.

[timddo]

957509575195752

[timddo]

Fatbouy

There are welds on the otherside, so structurally its sound.

[bigpat]

Mate, ask if they will come to the party and fix it.
By paying them, and driving away, you accepted the job, unless you raised the points at the time. I would've gone fishing without the rack, and brought he boat back afterwards....

You say they are marine fabricators. Seen any of their other work there? Have they been around long?

As a fabricator though, no way I'd let that go out the door. I made a stains rocket launcher for a friend of a mate. I quoted it too cheap, didn't make anything, but made suer it was done well. Once installed and used, he complained it moved too much. In order to keep him happy, I took it back, and welded extra bracing, at my cost. All I wanted was a happy customer, even though it cost me. A fabricator has to have pride in their work to stay in business......

[Shark Poker]

Thanks for the info and photos timmdo
I agree with bigpats above comment.

[wags on the water]

There's no "pride" in work anymore - it's all about getting work through one door, get paid and then out the other door. Hopefully you can get it sorted from the great offers here otherwise it'll play on your mind and get you all ticked off until it's fixed.

[fandtm666]

957509575195752

You are a nicer fella than i , pic 3 would not have been good enough for me to give them a single cent till it was all fixed .

[Matt76]

There's no "pride" in work anymore - it's all about getting work through one door, get paid and then out the other door. Hopefully you can get it sorted from the great offers here otherwise it'll play on your mind and get you all ticked off until it's fixed.

Haha Jeez pretty generalised comment there mate, there are still a lot of trades that take great pride in their work, it's just the bad ones that get all the publicity.

[Si]

http://originboats.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Construction-14.jpg
Like a row of scallops!! This is how it should have looked. Origin Boats Photo

[Triple]

If only I could do half as good as this.. http://www.marcellamanifolds.net/Elbows.html
(https://www.google.com.au/search?q=scalloped+welded+manifold&client=firefox-a&hs=lvU&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=BfsVUpfyHcmjkQXZi4DgAQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=639#fp=f29433e6b9a715e0&q=marcella+manifold+porn&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&imgdii=_)

[Matt76]

That really is amazing quality!


If only I could do half as good as this.. http://www.marcellamanifolds.net/Elbows.html
(https://www.google.com.au/search?q=scalloped+welded+manifold&client=firefox-a&hs=lvU&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=BfsVUpfyHcmjkQXZi4DgAQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=639#fp=f29433e6b9a715e0&q=marcella+manifold+porn&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&imgdii=_)

[daveo17]

timddo are you located near yatla or capalaba ? might be able to help ya out next week

[thelump]

http://originboats.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Construction-14.jpg
Like a row of scallops!! This is how it should have looked. Origin Boats Photo

Mmmm don't know about that weld. Looks like a lot of spots for crater cracks to appear. The " scallop" appearance on welds is usually when done with a Tig as in the links above. To me that weld is just moving the mig forward and back to achieve that look. Don't know how good it would be??

[Si]

Mmmm don't know about that weld. Looks like a lot of spots for crater cracks to appear. The " scallop" appearance on welds is usually when done with a Tig as in the links above. To me that weld is just moving the mig forward and back to achieve that look. Don't know how good it would be??

I'm surprised that this is viewed as not that good of a weld. While I have only done a little welding I would see this workshops weld quality above most tinny manufacturers out there. The bottom plate weld above this one is also very good imo. Not having a crack but what do you think makes a good weld on a tinny Macca? I'm actually genuinely interested because I thought these guys had exceptional weld quality.

[MEG-A-BITE]

Bull 1 is your man when it comes to welding.He is a specialist.Would be keen to see what he thinks of this lot....

[Bull]

Bull 1 is your man when it comes to welding.He is a specialist.Would be keen to see what he thinks of this lot....

Wayne, I said I went to the special school. If you want an experts opinion I think Mad Mackeral is the man when it comes to Ali welding.

Cheers Brett
AU/IWS OO406

[CATchin'Em]

that weld looks crappy to me looks like lots of spot weld (cold outer hot inner). needs to be done with tig if you want that appearance(but that doesnt have good appearance) that looks poor and crack worthy I would rather see a mig run done around that than that!! I am no expert on ali but i have never seen a boiler maker do that ever!

[Triple]

Love what he has done with this manifold - http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=83501

[thelump]

I'm surprised that this is viewed as not that good of a weld. While I have only done a little welding I would see this workshops weld quality above most tinny manufacturers out there. The bottom plate weld above this one is also very good imo. Not having a crack but what do you think makes a good weld on a tinny Macca? I'm actually genuinely interested because I thought these guys had exceptional weld quality.

It is hard to tell but the weld above it seems to be a tighter weave so to speak. Maybe he was going to do another couple of runs over that making it a 3 run 2 layer fillet but I doubt it would need it. More than likely welded like that as the top material is much thicker than the hull plate?? Don't know but I do know that all those little craters are a spot where a crack will start. Be good to see the finished weld.

[Shark Poker]

Love what he has done with this manifold - http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=83501

Triple, With the correct material and surface prep, and doing that all day every day, I am sure you could do as well or better.

The photo posted by Si (from Origin boats??) looks good but you would not perform anything more structural; like a keel (see same photo where the scales are much closer ) or transom for fear of uneven penetration. Because when scales are spaced out like this they potentially have the fortitude of a series of spot welds.
Ok for a planning strake I guess, ( as pictured) . And if it this pic is a promo photo from a builder, good on them. Good presentation.
Now, so not to be accused of being an armchair expert I am posting pics of a recent job that I did for a client whom needed a fuel tank rack in the bow of his tinny. The boat is about 7yrs old and I had to design a working solution that allows for cleaning underneath, removal of the fuel tank and being STANDED upon by large gentlemen.
Also, like any customer, price is an issue. We have to meet their budget within reason like any other supplier. The result has to be working, safe, strong and efficient. Special equipment and skills for precision bending components or welding materials of diff thickness inside or outside or indeed upside down are taken for granted by the customer.
By the way the quote and invoice were $220
Am not trying to sell anything, just wishing to put a realistic example along with my 20c worth on this thread. All the above is just IMO, not trying to stir anyone.
Cheers all,
Pauly
95786

[thelump]

I unfortunately don't have a photo of any of my work but if you look at any wheat wagons getting around the train tracks or perhaps one of the 15m satellite dishes in outback NSW stop in and check them out. One of those aluminium structures may have been welded by this armchair expert

[wags on the water]

Is this one of yours Macca?
95788

[Matt76]

Clearly those scallops are too close together Wags! Haha

[Owen]

http://originboats.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Construction-14.jpg
Like a row of scallops!! This is how it should have looked. Origin Boats Photo

In the case of MIG welding, the fish scale pattern that everyone seems to think means its a good weld is largely cosmetic and in cases like above would undoubtedly fail mechanical testing due to lack of uniform penetration. There also a lot of stress raisers there in an area that is likely to flex. [Edit: After looking at the photo's on my PC instead of my phone, the area may not flex given the thickness and stiffeners, but the weld is still not one to hold up as perfect by any means]
If done correctly it allows builders to ensure uniform appearance of the welds across the whole boat. Especially in cases where more than one person are welding.
The machine in use there has a function called synchropulse (sometimes call double pulse)
It "pulses" the amount of wire coming out to give a fish scale effect. If its in use there then the frequency is set too low for the travel speed. A higher frequency would bring it closer together giving uniform penetration.

The manifolds shown were done with a TIG. Not practical to do large jobs and heavy materials that way. Your tinnie would cost about five times as much.

As far as I know there is no requirement for boat builders to do any sort of pre qualified weld procedures or post weld testing.

Of course it's a "be careful what you wish for Dorothy" thing.
If such measure were introduced it would raise the manufacturing costs dramatically and virtually eliminate the kit boats.

[Bull]

Have a look at AS/NZS 1665
All welds need a Weld Procedure Specification
All welders need to be qualified or certified
There are plenty of back yard boys building boats without WPS and using guys who aren't qualified to those procedures.

[Owen]

Have a look at AS/NZS 1665
All welds need a Weld Procedure Specification
All welders need to be qualified or certified
There are plenty of back yard boys building boats without WPS and using guys who aren't qualified to those procedures.

Whilst I'd love to read it, I'm not going to buy it to do so. The sample download doesn't allow me to see the section on weld profiles etc.
Given that it's a welded structures standard not specific to boats, I presume that some other bot specific standard such as AS 1799.1-2009 specifies that all welding must conform to the former?
This info seems to support your post with regard to vessels that must be surveyed, but it's unclear if other vessels must have the same standards applied.
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/~/media/msqinternet/msqfiles/home/publications/marineinformationbulletins/pdf_mib_al_welding_quals.pdf

[Shark Poker]

In the case of MIG welding, the fish scale pattern that everyone seems to think means its a good weld is largely cosmetic and in cases like above would undoubtedly fail mechanical testing due to lack of uniform penetration. There also a lot of stress raisers there in an area that is likely to flex. [Edit: After looking at the photo's on my PC instead of my phone, the area may not flex given the thickness and stiffeners, but the weld is still not one to hold up as perfect by any means]
If done correctly it allows builders to ensure uniform appearance of the welds across the whole boat. Especially in cases where more than one person are welding.
The machine in use there has a function called synchropulse (sometimes call double pulse)
It "pulses" the amount of wire coming out to give a fish scale effect. If its in use there then the frequency is set too low for the travel speed. A higher frequency would bring it closer together giving uniform penetration.

The manifolds shown were done with a TIG. Not practical to do large jobs and heavy materials that way. Your tinnie would cost about five times as much.

As far as I know there is no requirement for boat builders to do any sort of pre qualified weld procedures or post weld testing.

Of course it's a "be careful what you wish for Dorothy" thing.
If such measure were introduced it would raise the manufacturing costs dramatically and virtually eliminate the kit boats.

After reading his post a few times I have to agree.
Owen has described this better than I have.
However, could we now apply our thoughts towards the goal of how to repair or improve the rocket launcher?

[madmackrel]

It's all beginning to sound like a peeing contest

[cobiaman]

This is a perfect opportunity for a weldoff!!!!

[Shark Poker]

This is a perfect opportunity for a weldoff!!!!

I think the peeing contest has some potential as Fathers' Day is approaching fast. Could be a father & son's type of event.
We could all meet near a boat ramp somewhere!