Modernising the old boat

[oldjoe]

Hi All
Newbie question
I have just installed a switch panel to my centre console as I am modernising my dads old boat, starting with a sounder/gps combo. I have 5 switch+ciggie socket panel which I have connected to the positive terminal on the battery, I have a negative bus bar connected to the negative terminal of battery.
Switch negative goes to neg bus bar, for back lit switches.
Sounder/GPS combo - positive connects to swith panel, negative to bus bar.
Switch panel has a 3 fuses behind it, one per 2 switches, default fuse is 15 amp, but I changed the combo one to 5 amp as per lowrance manual, the others I left as 15 amp.
Issue is combo doesn't come on, all I get is a clicking noise.
Any ideas??? I can try and get pics this arvo if it helps.
thx in advance
joe

[cormorant]

does the combo work when you power it directly off the battery with only tehe fuse in the line? Just want to know you are dealing with a operating unit to start with.

[oldjoe]

Good point, I should have though of that...12 volt system is very new to me.
I'll check that out after work and let you know.
Clicking noise is still a bit odd though.
thx
joe

[oldjoe]

It didn't occur to me that a new out of the box Lowrance Elite 4 DSI Combo (a chrissy present to myself :))wouldn't work...getting more naive in my old age.

[cormorant]

It will probably be fine. I always start with the idiot questions first as I have made all the idiot mistakes and spent hours chasing down nothings.

Next one is to actually use a test light or multimeter to prove you have 12v bevore switch, after switch and at the bus bar. Wouldn'be teh first switch panel not wired up right or fuses not good or seated properly.

The cheap switch panels can in teh longer term be more trouble than they are worth and I have called it for a cheap one as most quality ones don't include a 12v socket.

12v is pretty easy concept.

Red from teh +ve on the battery.
Always have switches and fuses on the red side. You are only switching the red wire.
Black from the -ve negative on the battery to teh Bus bar.

All equipment wired between switch +ve and busbar -ve

So from the +ve terminal on the battery you should have
Fuse to protect wire ( ie fuse should cook before wire does)
wire to switch panels common bus bar
Switch
wire from switch to built in panel fuse
Built in panel fuse
Red Wire to sounder or whatever equipment you have on that switch. Most electronic style equipment will have a inline fuse to protect the equipment
Black wire coming out of equipment
Black wire connects to bus bar
Black wire from bus bar to -ve terminal on battery.

Push on button on the equipment and you should be a goer.


Check your battery and all terminals are secure. Low current ( ie bad connection) will often give a click rather than start a bit of electronics up.

Have a quick search for "shrinkwrap" and " re-wire" as there are some bloke on here who have done some 1st class wiring jobs and using the right stuff to start with ( wires, connectors) means it will last and not be a future problem.

[oldjoe]

Thanks Cormorant, I took the switch totally out of the loop and connected device directly to the battery (with inline fuse) with the same result, device wont power on and odd clicking noise.
The switch is relatively cheap..around the $40-$50 mark from Whitworths.
Tested voltage at the battery with a reasonably good multi-meter and it was reading 12.41v
Had continuity at the device end of cable from battery on both pos and neg.
I am taking the device to supplier and get it tested there...which should be easy enough, that will at least rule that out...or in.
Thanks for the help, I will search shinkwrap/re-wire though, good tip.
I have done a fair bit of reading before starting and am confident all my connections are good, using 7.5a tinned wire and good connecters, shrinkwrapped and all :)
Very disappointed it didn't just spring to life when the switch was flipped :(
I still have to check voltage at the device, I am a real novice so using the multi-meter is a learning curve as well, all fun and games, will get there in the end with the much appreciated help of the ausfish community particularly contributors such as yourself.
Will keep you posted, cheers
Joe

[oldjoe]

Checked voltage at the device end of cables and it is the same as at the battery.

[cormorant]

Not many devices are dead out of the box these days but it does happen. .

Last idiot question from me. Have you read the installation destructions that came with it in case it is something stupid- holding buttons down seconds? Needs tranducer attached? Needs a card in it"? Fuse not blown? screen brightness turned up?

Give the supplier a call to warn them you are coming - If it is something stupid they will usually save you the trip.

[oldjoe]

Thx Cormorant, yep checked all that stuff, it didn't come with an SD card, so can only assume it doesn't need one to start up.
With the clicking noise still happening, I suspect it is the wiring...or the DSI filter on the device, the clicking is coming from under the console somewhere and that's the only new addition????
thx again
joe

[Fed]

You're cable is too small.

[PixieAU]

Good call Fred. Perhaps getting the voltage through but not enough juice to power up.

[oldjoe]

What the 7.5a cable from Battery to device or switch panel?
What do you recommend?
Would the 7.5a be any good for planned nav lights in the future?
Also planning on a bilge pump and maybe a live bait setup of some sort.

[oldjoe]

Auxillary battery will be the same as crank, Century Marine Pro 720, advice has been keep them the same????

[Fed]

Cable from battery to switch panel minimum 4.0mm².

[oldjoe]

Thx Fed....definitely under wired, .............4mm2 = 10gauge = 2.5 mm diam?

[cormorant]

Do Lowrance sill have that "sleep mode" ( sorry don't know what they call it) To get it in you press 2 buttons and same to wake it up?

If you powered it directly for a test and it didn't start you have a problem out of the box. Fed is right about wires needing to carry enough current as well.

Last idea from me- if that model has the plug in power lead , unplug it and check power cable end. Also check "power pins" on the actual sounder connection as they are small and if connector has been twisted or something they may be bent or broken off? I am not going to admit how I know this can happen with another brand but it was lesson learnt for me. If not it might be DOA.

[Noelm]

or the DSI filter on the device, the clicking is coming from under the console somewhere and that's the only new addition????
thx again
joe
Clicking from UNDER the console??? that sounds somewhat strange to me, should be simple enough to connect the device via it's own harness direct to another battery, are you 100% sure you have the polarity correct? clicking usually indicates some sort of power supply fault, or a built in safety setup in case you have reverse polarity, or bad wiring.

[Fed]

There's plenty of conversion charts on the net that will swap all sorts of cable sizes (cross sectional area) & diameters with & without insulation.
To avoid any possible confusion I'll only work with metric CSA.

BIAS Boating sell both 4.0mm² & 6.0mm² twin tinned cable.

You need to work out what your final power requirements will be, Lowrance seem especially susceptible to voltage drop problems so even if you manage to squeak through with a smaller cable the unit will probably drop out when you hit the key to start the outboard.

Edit: Connect the Lowrance unit with its own little lead straight to the battery to prove there's nothing wrong with it.

[oldjoe]

Thx All, I have been thinking about final requirements...there are more devices to come ie. nav lights, bilge pump, bait tank so I will definitely need to beef up the cable, will check out online charts and go from there, will let you know how I go with the sounder....this arvo after work, I hope.
I have just relocated battery further forward in the boat and had to get a longer battery cable to the outboard to do this, would the old battery cable pair do the trick...not too much overkill??

[Fed]

Definite overkill Joe, work out what you want to put in & go from there.

[oldjoe]

Cheers
will do

[oldjoe]

I thought others may find this interesting.
I have done a quick search and found some helpful info on amp draws of various devices...aprox of course.
Bilge Pump (500 gph) ——— 2.0 AMP Draw
Bilge Pump (1000 gph) ——– 2.9 AMP Draw
Bilge Pump (1500 gph) ——– 4.9 AMP Draw
Bilge Pump (2000 gph) ——– 8.4 AMP Draw
Navigation Lights (3 mile) — 1.5 AMP Draw
Live Well Pump ————— 7.0 AMP Draw
Fresh Water Pump————– 4.0 AMP Draw
Refrigerator (12v) ———— 6.0 AMP Draw
Ice Maker——————— 6.0 AMP Draw
Head (Macerator) ————- 9.0 AMP Draw
Anchor Windlass (900lb) ——- 75 AMP Draw
12v. Housing Lighting——— 15 per 10 Watts AMP Draw
Spot Lights (100k cp) ——— 8.0 AMP Draw
Spreader Lights (3k cp)——- 3.0 AMP Draw
Radar (24 mile) ————– 5.0 AMP Draw
GPS ————————— 0.80 AMP Draw
LORAN————————- 0.70 AMP Draw
VHF Radio - transmit———- 6.0 AMP Draw
VHF Radio - receive———– 0.50 AMP Draw
Depth Sounder (LCD)———– 1.0 AMP Draw
Depth Sounder (Color)——— 3.0 AMP Draw
SSB - Transmit—————- 3.0 AMP Draw
INVERTERS*
SSB receive——————- 2.5 AMP Draw
Autopilot——————— 5.0 AMP Draw
Stereo (50 watt) ————– 0.50 AMP Draw
Fan————————— 1.0 AMP Draw
TROLLING MOTORS (12VOLT)
24lb Thrust——————- 27 AMP Draw
30lb Thrust——————- 30 AMP Draw
36lb Thrust——————- 36 AMP Draw
42lb Thrust——————- 40 AMP Draw
55lb Thrust——————- 55 AMP Draw
Total up your device draw.....mine would be approx 30 amp (well rounded up) once all devices are installed mutiplied by say 8 feet max from battery to switch and back
Using any of many charts available online, I need 10 gauge or 6mm2, so it appears I am seriously under wired, seems I should have read up more before starting.
Thanks all for pointing me in the right direction, will keep you posted on result and maybe some pics as I progress through the boats entry to the 21st century.
joe
yes, a very quiet day at work :)

[lbger]

I just spent two agonising days trying to figure out the exact same problem in relation to the sounder not working.. first up i thought it was the unit.. took it back to the shop put it on their head unit and it worked.. ok ruled that out. then the next thing was to rule out the wiring.. double checked and tested all good.. now i am thinking ok its the cable from the unit into my switchboard.. no that fine.. further head scratching. The last thing i had considered and this maybe your drama mate.. i had got sold a dud battery.. the unit wont turn on or work properly if it has a dead cell or wont hold the min required charge to run the sounder.. Its free to get it tested and sorted everything straight out for me.

from what you have posted Joe, i would say that the battery is your drama.

good luck.

[ericcs]

with regards to the clicking noise, do you have a separate hour meter. these things click once every several seconds when the ignition is on

[oldjoe]

Thx, Ibger and ericcs.
yes I do have a separate hour meter and will get battery checked, although sounder specs state 10-17v and the battery is reading around the 12.4v
I plan to up the ante on my wiring from battery to switch first then see what happens, hopefully tonight if the rain here stops......still dreaming of a shed for the boat.

[oldjoe]

@ericcs...you where spot on with the hour meter, that is what is clicking, I can see it jump a little when click happens

[oldjoe]

A few select swear words this evening, I managed to get out between showers, used the old battery cable to up the ante on gauge as I didn't have time to by anything else, tried new heavy cable via switch and direct to unit with no joy, will have sounder and battery tested tomorrow, battery cranks the boat ok though but hasn't had to run any devices while motor is off before. Will see what tomorrow brings, thanks for everyones help, this really is a great forum.

[timddo]

Did you check the fuse.

[oldjoe]

Yep, fuse checked...several times now.
I have made sure there is always a fuse in line when hooking up the power, I don't want to fry my new toy, which I haven't been able to play with yet >:(

[Noelm]

does it have one of those silly twist to onlock plastic fuse holders? if so, they are notorious for not making contact, but it does seem to be a bit of a funny one, if the battery kicks over the motor, then it will be OK.

[WalrusLike]

It's gotta be the sounder it seems.... You've tested the fuse connectivity haven't you..,.

So if battery kicks motor over it should've managed a sounder ok with the direct connection.

Hopefully a quick swap and Bobs your uncle.

[lbger]

yeah surely then its the sounder if it kickes the motor over.

[oldjoe]

Sounder and battery tests ok, so I am at a loss.....starting to put a ding in the console from head banging
I must be doing something (probably really basic) wrong, so I am getting a sparkie to come over and check it out and most importantly teach me how to use the multi-meter correctly and how to interperet its readings.
I'll let you know how it goes and what the issue is (besides ME) in a day or two, I strongly suspect Cormorant is on the money with the switch panel, but at the moment my opinion is worth jack s*it and I am a bit strapped to upgrade switch....maybe next payday :)

[Noelm]

Hi All
Newbie question
.
Switch negative goes to neg bus bar, for back lit switches.
Sounder/GPS combo - positive connects to swith panel, negative to bus ba
joe

switch negative???????

[oldjoe]

There is a negative wire coming off the switch (the cigarette lighter in fact) Whitworths guy said it should go to the neg bus bar to enable back lighting to switch.
I have tried it both connected and disconnected .........no difference.

[WalrusLike]

Joe when you test the sounder it worked ok? So how was it tested...

What was the connection made through the inline fuse?

I hope you get a good result here... it sounds impossible.

[lbger]

Easy way to wire it then.... connect the positive wire direct to to the positive off the battery not through the switch, the negative that goes to your bus bar.. bypass it and connect it direct to the negative off the battery. When you hook the sounder up it will automatically power up when you plug it in.. put in an isolator switch and use that as your switch .. it cant not work?
When you said the battery tests ok, who tested it? Did you get a batteryshop to test it or do it yourself?

[juggernaut]

Buy a cheap test light and through a process of elimination probe each positive wire in the circuit to the sounder. If you have power up to the switch but not after it, the switch is either cactus or you've wired it incorrectly.

Even if the voltage is insufficient for the sounder the light will still have a dull glow.

[oldjoe]

The saga is finaly sorted, many thanks to everyone.
Before I gave up and got a sparkie involved, I had one more shot and rewired the whole thing, Thanks Fed for the 6mm2 advice, the under sized wire was a main factor in why it was failing.
Cormorant, you where on the money from the start, it was the switch in the end, but other factors as well, the wiring I did on the DSI filter was dodgy as well, once I eliminated wiring issues I was able to confirm the switch was the culprit.
It was tricky though as some switches on the panel where ok, others weren't, using the continuity function all appered ok at the switch, but what I found once the feed to it was good, was voltage drops to some switches on the panel, but they where intimitant...which was causing conflicting results and confusion.
You guys kept me perservering and we got there in the end......many, many thanks, it not only saved me some dollars, but it is so much more fun sorting it out yourself.
I even got a PM offering assistance which is outstanding, what a great community ausfish is....Steve @ Redcliffe, you are a champion.
Once again...many thanks.

[WalrusLike]

Good on you Joe. Thanks for the update. Nothing beats fixing it yourself eh!

[oldjoe]

Thx Walrus, it was very frustrating but I learnt alot and yep, it feels good when you finally get there...now I have to work out how to use the sounder :)
That will be fun, pottering about checking out regular haunts like Nudgee Creek and the Pine River with the sounder, seeing the difference between my imagination and fact and hopefully sniffing out a couple of secret spots:)