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randell
25-01-2013, 08:16 AM
Just read this in Mackay paper.
http://www.dailymercury.com.au/news/companies-dump-dredge-great-barrier-reef/1729527/
Doesn't seem right...
The farmers around Bundaberg have been trying to reduce fertilizer runoff, and topsoil runoff here for years. New fertilizers to reduce effects on the reef if they wash out....

Just wonder if this sludge washes away or just clogs up the bottom in the area it is dumped, and kills it for a few years....

randell

morphias
25-01-2013, 08:39 AM
What a f$^&ing disgrace!

Of course it is legal...for a fee...as long as they get their money, they don't care.

No wonder we have just been added to the international list of shame for the treatment of the GBR and are being threatended with having it removed from the World Heritage listing.

Camhawk88
25-01-2013, 09:44 AM
Alright- a bit of typical sensationalist reporting going on there.
Time to look at some of the real facts.

Firstly the GBR WA is a very large area that includes much of the inshore waters inside the GBR lagoon. Basically any activities in the ocean from around Gladstone to the Cape are in GBRWA- it does not mean that it is in close proximity or on the reef itself.

The Townsville dredge spoil areas have been used for years and are approximately 20-30NM from the nearest reef (excluding island fringing reefs). These areas are regularly monitored and assessed for environmental impacts. A lot of money is spent doing this- as it should be.
The fact is the turbidity in Cleveland bay created by a few days of 15 knot SEers well and truely exceedes that caused by the spoil dumping and the same sediment that is dumped is the same sediment that is suspended during these blows- the bulk of it is from the shipping channel.

Second point is if you want a port- you have to accept that it needs to be maintained by dredging- its just an inconvenient fact of life. So short of closing the ports and all of the industry they support you need to realise that dredging and sea dumping will happen- its not new it has been going on for many decades and the only thing that has changed apart from volume is that it is now done with more consideration and awareness of the environment.

Payment for services. yes it looks bad doesnt it- 'Port company pays to dump their waste on the reef'. fact is the regulatory bodies impose a fee to pay for the administration of assessing the applications to ensure they are being carried out under the appropriate environmental guidelines. It is a long and costly process so either tax payers foot the bill or the Port companies do.

For the record I have no affiliation with any Port however I have worked within the regulatory sector and have experience with these applications and have seen the EIS studies of dredge spoil areas. There are bigger issues the GBR faces than routine dredge dumping and this is just a bit of slow day journalism that only dishes out a select few facts to get the community in an uproar and sell papers.

cheers,

Moonlighter
25-01-2013, 01:47 PM
Well said, Camahawk. Always useful when someone who knows the real facts chimes in on there kinds of media reports. As you say, a typical slow day report from a green-tinged reporter trying to make a name for themselves.

In other words, a complete beat-up.

Effectively, all that dregding does is shift naturally occurring material from one locaton to another, under careful guidelines and conditions. Noting to get all that excited about.

MudRiverDan
25-01-2013, 03:37 PM
I was talking to a guy who conducted a study some years ago of the effects the dumping has.
I was talking casually and I said "so does it affect the ecology?" and he said "It is a desert down there, basically it's something that should not be there".
Interesting, it's a pity there is no productive use for this fill.

Dan

randell
25-01-2013, 07:58 PM
thanks camhawk88,
That makes sense.
I see they are planning a second channel for Gladstone to cope with the traffic.
And I know the whole state benefits from trade.
It is a bit of an eye opener to see channels have to be dredged for ships to enter even the Brisbane River.
randell

MudRiverDan
25-01-2013, 08:04 PM
thanks camhawk88,
That makes sense.

randell
lol.....!!!

Lucky_Phill
26-01-2013, 08:13 AM
Nope.......... it's piss poor.

Dredge the crap up, load it onto trucks and use it for land fill / road works, civil works.

Who gives a flying garfish if it has been done for years. stop it and find another place to offload this stuff.

I bet my left one, that NO study has been done into the effects of dumping at sea. I mean, for every square inch of seabed there is a habitat of plant and animal species. Just because no one has caught a Red Emporer or Sweetlip in one spot does not mean there is NOT an abundance of life and that life is part of a food and evolution chain.

When are we going to stop shitting in our waterways..... this does go for fertiliers, dredge soils, landbased pollution, bilge and ballast waters and every other piece of crap that makes its way into the ocean and down the throats of it's creatures and habitats ?

Whether it is a slow day day for journalism or not, dumping this crap from its natural place to another place is nothing short of vandalism !!

( edit:- the crap that sits at the areas that are dredged are topped with runoff, heavy metals, pollution, sludge etc... and this is the crap I am talking about being dredged up and dumped in our waters )

LP

MudRiverDan
26-01-2013, 09:25 AM
I bet my left one, that NO study has been done into the effects of dumping at sea.
LP

:o:o:o:o,,,,,,,,,,,

Lucky_Phill
26-01-2013, 09:32 AM
I'll qualify that......... NO serious, independant or complete study.

There may have been a Govt Funded, " friendly " study done... ?

LP

odes20
26-01-2013, 09:40 AM
Hey Phil just remember youve only got 2 of those up your sleeves (i mean trousers) . Did you lose the right one in a bet? maybe put your house up first ? :)

Feral
26-01-2013, 09:49 AM
Its much cheaper to dump in the Great Barrier Reef marine park than in land fill sites. Someone put up a post about the fees no to long ago.

tunaticer
26-01-2013, 10:27 AM
Some of the ports are expanding my reclaiming adjacent areas and building levels for the port with those dredge spoils. That may be good but the costs are horrendous in the end.

Lucky_Phill
26-01-2013, 03:29 PM
Money Vs Environment ( Fishery / Future )

Strange how the Greenies have been amazingly silent over this, in fact, I have not heard a peep since March 2012.

" FOR EVIL TO PREVIAL ONLY TAKES GOOD MEN TO DO NOTHING "

To say the dredged material will be dumped only in a certain area is BS !,,, With currents and extreme weather conditions, this pollution will spread far and wide......


Where is the study ? Where is the science ?


Answer........ Follow the money trail......:bomb:


LP

Camhawk88
27-01-2013, 01:27 PM
;


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Here is some light reading for you Phill.
Good thing you have a spare (or use is now redundant- whichever applies;))

Camhawk88
27-01-2013, 01:46 PM
lol.....!!!


Good to see your useful input again Dan- maybe why job market is tough mate?

Phill, Dredge spoil dumping is far from impact neutral of course any human intervention in the marine environment has an impact- even you wetting a line mate.

However we as humans go about our business making ports roads etc. and unless you want to withdraw from civilisation you need to accept your part of responsibility towards environmental impacts. This is why greenies so often fly off at things they dont know much about to appease their consciences.

Ok so dredge dumping is moving sediment from one spot to another and the dumping of it does smother the benthic infauna in that area which has an impact on the food chain. You mention all of the chemicals etc- the great majority of dredge spoil is shipping channels that hold the same sediment composition as the waters around it- and very similar to the areas they are dumped. There is generally a negligible net transport of toxiants. Dredging out old port swing basins etc is more fraught with danger as these are areas that have a build up of heavy metals, hydrocarbons, dioxins etc. These types of dredgings (such as is going on in Gladstone atm) are rarely if ever dumped at sea in Australia and if it is it is thoroughly tested before dumping. Gladstone pumps that spoil into bunded areas for dewatering and it is then tested to determine how it can be used.

Will the spoil remain exactly where it was dumped? Most of it will but some of it will be transported by currents, tides etc- the same vectors that create the need for maintenance dredging. This transport has little environmental effect as it happens in small volumes and is no different from sediment transport and deposition from non dumping sites.

Dumping sites these days are specifically selected to minimise harm. Usually on areas of small ecological value- so not close to reefs, seagrass beds, fern beds etc. Old sites perhaps were not so selective however once dumping has occured on a site the benthic infauna composition adapts and recovers much quicker than new sites so it is not sensible to move to a new site. However knowing the surrounding ground around where the Townsville spoil sites are - there is little chance that they were on fertile shoals or weed beds anyway.

Where possible dredge spoil is used as fill on port projects for reclaimation etc. But to truck the sort of volumes you are looking at from maintenance dredging would probably create more overall waste of resources and environmental impacts.

Bottom line is that while yes dredge dumping does have an impact, the dredge spoil dumping of the ports in question in the article will have simply no measurable effect on the surrounding GBR and the story is clearly a beat up.

MudRiverDan
27-01-2013, 02:03 PM
Good to see your useful input again Dan- maybe why job market is tough mate?


Obviously you are still sore about you spawning barra theory.. ;D

MudRiverDan
27-01-2013, 02:09 PM
You mention all of the chemicals etc- the great majority of dredge spoil is shipping channels that hold the same sediment composition as the waters around it- and very similar to the areas they are dumped. There is generally a negligible net transport of toxiants. Dredging out old port swing basins etc is more fraught with danger as these are areas that have a build up of heavy metals, hydrocarbons, dioxins etc. These types of dredgings (such as is going on in Gladstone atm) are rarely if ever dumped at sea in Australia and if it is it is thoroughly tested before dumping.

Of course it just gets better and better.. ;D

Is that why that mining guy wanted to dump his tailings dumps in the sea?

Camhawk88
27-01-2013, 02:11 PM
Not sore about anything- it bothers me not that you cant comprehend plain English buddy.

Go and have a re-read of it, work it out, then do everyone a favour and forget about the past and try to base you comments on the thread at hand and if you have nothing useful to add then don't type.

That is all.

Camhawk88
27-01-2013, 02:21 PM
Of course it just gets better and better.. ;D

Is that why that mining guy wanted to dump his tailings dumps in the sea?

You mean Clive Palmer?

Again comprehension is a challenge dan. The first highlighted section is maintenance of shipping channels. The second is dredging swing basins. Very different as I have clearly pointed out.

MudRiverDan
27-01-2013, 02:33 PM
You mean Clive Palmer?
such intuition..

Again comprehension is a challenge dan.

What do you actually want people to comprehend? Your saying that nothing like Terra-firma or anthroposal soils make it to the sea?

Great posts, thanks for the laugh.


Dan

Camhawk88
27-01-2013, 04:40 PM
Feel free to offer your take on the matter Dan- I'm sure it would be much more insightful. You have plenty of time on your hands buddy- go hard.::)

MudRiverDan
27-01-2013, 05:29 PM
Feel free to offer your take on the matter Dan- I'm sure it would be much more insightful. You have plenty of time on your hands buddy- go hard.::)
Great answer, lacks some substance but I'm sure its the best you could do without Google.

Dan

Moonlighter
27-01-2013, 07:08 PM
Camhawk

Good informative posts.

Dunno whats up Dan's nose...... Whatever it is must hurt, though.........

I think the word "spoil" is what cunjures up images of bad stuff for many people. The reality is that most dregding material from channels is, as you said, very clean and much the same as the areas to which it is relocated. And yes, there is no such thing as "no impact" from that process - it impacts the area dredged, and it impacts the area the material is transferred to. Needs to be done carefully.

It is areas such as marinas and industrial harbours where the material dredged can have abnormal concentrations of contaminants. Ask the people at Manly harbour how difficlut it is to get permits to dispose of material from there!

At the same time, there have been efforts to get the channel into the William St ramp at Cleveland dredged for many years and the single biggest hurdle has been getting EPA approval to take the spoil to the long established Mud Island spoil grounds. You know - thats the area where many guys here on Ausfish catch so many of those snapper........grassies, cod etc....

Of course the EPA are applying the same thinking to the Cleveland channel as they are to Manly harbour, but the two simply cant be compared because there are no moorings in Cleveland and the spoil that comes out will be uncontaminated by anti-fouling etc as a result.

So dreding not only benefits businesses, it benefits us recreational boaties as well. Gee, im sick of bumping rocks in that channel at low low tides, as I am sure that many other boaties and the VMR Raby Bay team are as well.

Hey Phill - want to see how well spoil stays where its put? Go just off Cleveland point to the spoil groungs where Raby Bay spoil went and youll see it on your sounder quite clearly. if you cant find it pm me and ill give you a gps mark right on top of the peak of the mountain!

And as anyone who knows the area will attest, the current that rips through there with the tides every day is quite amazing! But 30 years after it was placed, still there!

MudRiverDan
03-02-2013, 07:38 PM
Post removed.