Rebuiding Signature > how to remove top deck

[diver dan]

I've started rebuilding my little Haines Signature 470df. The transom needs to be redone and I'm going to be doing it from the inside. I have pulled back the gunnel rubbers and started removing the staples holding the two decks together using a flat screwdriver and a hammer. I will cut the top deck across shortly but what I wanted to know was how to separate the hull from the top deck as they are also glued together? Any easy ways to do it?

[Noelm]

there is no EASY way, sometimes you can pry them apart, sometimes a thin angle grinder blade will carefully cut the bond, just take your time and it will come off.

[diver dan]

What can use to pry them apart? wedges, chisels, screwdrivers? I don't want to use an angle grinder if I can avoid it, too easy to stuff things up.

[Noelm]

yep, all those things, you just need to be carefull, do not "attack it" it will come off!

[FisHard]

I take my hat off to you guys that take on these jobs! That just sounds like a world of pain to me. Good luck with it :)

[finga]

http://www.treecaremach.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Chainsaw1.jpg

Pending on how they glued it sometimes you do more damage by trying to pry them apart. Unless it 'falls' apart when trying to 'pry' apart I'd be cutting.

But not with a chainsaw. I dunno how that got there. :-?

[Swanie1975]

Would a heavy duty quality paint scraper work? I use one at work for removing/cutting mouldings off cars etc and can carefully remove most without breaking them. It might be worth a try to see if you can work it apart bit by bit
Do you have any pics?

Cheers Ryan

[HOW BIG?]

I have never done it with a boat before but I used to work as an aeronautical soft tool maker making molds and modifying composite pieces and have always found a 4 inch grinder to be the weapon of choice when it came to works like you describe.
Just because a power tool is used it doesn't mean you have to go quick with it.
Take your time, steady your hand against the piece and concentrate on keeping the blade level/plumb/true...with the intended line of cut.Don't look at the grinder, look at the angle of the blade!!
Doing it like this you can get a very surgical cut with little effort.Using wedges and screwdrivers is just a recipe for a joint that will never go back together flush again given the indentations you'll probably cause along the seam .

[wave dancer]

Grinder, steady hand and a 1 mm cutting disk.

[upstart]

How bout 'The Renovator' from TV?

[EdBerg]

There are many different ways that boat hulls were joined to the deck, some were with a resin bog between the two, then screwed together or riveted, then the gunnel rubber was heated and filled with bog then stretched over the join then lastly glassed over from the inside to seal the join and also depending on the boat size and design, more strip ply or timber bogged into the join and glassed over again, other methods involved putting wet glass between the two and then also a combination of the other things I mentioned before. So hard to say which method yours was done without looking at it.

Since you have the rubber off and have started to remove the staples yours may be simpler and you will be able to tell which method was used on yours, just make sure to inspect the inside of the hull/deck join to make sure that there isn't any glass laminate that you have to cut first. Most descent manufacturers should at least have done that, in which case you will need a diamond saw preferably or a thin grinding disk to cut though that layer to get to the join, that in itself is a very dusty and messy job just on it's own. Once you have done that, then I would use two bolster chisels, one to wedge in and the other to increase the tension next to it as you move along the join. You may also need a couple of large flat screw drivers as well. I personally wouldn't use standard wood chisels. If it is only bog it should crack bit by bit and if it is a glass bond then it will most likely tear a bit off each edge but you must take care not to destroy the lip as you go along either by cutting with the blades or by too much pressure using the chisels or screw drivers. Good luck with it and I am glad it's you and not me doing it. ;D

[matt fraser]

Sounds like you are well into it. Most people don't take the whole top off to do a transom repair. They cut through the top section about a foot from the transom, and just remove the rear top section.

Once the transom is done, it isn't such a big job to replace the rear top section and patch up the join.

Good luck.

Matt

[cormorant]

I'm with Matt depending on what other work needs doing with it or just do it from the outside or do a smaller piece at the stern.

If you cut the lid off make sure you have the boat flat and support the sides as they can change shape and be a bugger to rejoin. Make reference marks before you cut with tape or something so you can align it properly when you refit it . Drill holes where a staple has been before you cut and when putting it back together you can wax a bolt up and slip it in and use it as a dowel and clamp at teh same time.

If the manufacturer used epoxy glue it may be a better and stronger bond than glass so cutting may be the only option. Saying that some glues are very brittle and as others mentioned some just used a talc resin mix as a bond and glassed the inner joint

Use a thick blade or 2 together on a thick joint ( bad practise I know so watch hands and eyes) ) is a old trick as when you put it back together with resin glue it will be back to original thickness. Just depends on how teh original join was done and what thickness of glue they used. Quick wipe over with a 40 grit flap disk and it is keyrd up ready for reinstall.

[Noelm]

I thought he was only taking off the rear bit??? and as I said, an angle grinder with a THIN blade is what you need, it is simple (sort of) and you do not need to attack it like it is being scrapped, slow and steady is the name of the game.

[finga]

How bout 'The Renovator' from TV?
Fein type saws are very good heading towards excellent for this type of thing if speed of cut is not a priority.
There would be less dust then if you use an angle grinder and they're very safe to the operator as well.
Good thinking 99 :)

I just don't like the idea of pulling/poking/levering/wedging fibreglass apart. I reckon you could do a lot of damage to the hull and deck very quickly and not even realise it.

[diver dan]

Thanks for the info guys! Sorry, I wasn't clear enough in the first post but when I said I would cut it across, that means I'm only removing probably a metre or so off the back of the top deck so I can access the transom. I've had a look, being a typical haines, I don't think much effort went into joining the hull and the top deck as it looks like a little bog was used and that's about it.

I'm not used to using power tools and 1mm disc is pretty prone to snapping if I'm not super careful! I like the idea of the renevator, seems like a safe easy option.

[finga]

I'm not used to using power tools and 1mm disc is pretty prone to snapping if I'm not super careful! I like the idea of the renevator, seems like a safe easy option.
If that be the case use the round blade. Very forgiving. The square blades may do a little dance around the place if your not that used to tools while your doing a plunge cut.
There's many different brands of the saws. Just have a look at a few different ones. And price the blades for the machine as well. Some are not interchangeable with other brands and cost a motza.

[matt fraser]

Dan,

I don't know anything about the renovator tool, other than seeing the adds. As many have suggested, go the 1mm cutting blade, you have to be doing something pretty wrong to break them. They cut glass really well, you will chew through a few of them though. The are pretty safe compared to using diamond cutting blades. keep the guard on the grinder and make sure you wear a respirator and gloves, and a dust suit will reduce the itch.

Cutting the top off is just the begining, then you have to cut the inner skin of the transom off, and then get the wood out. Messy, dusty, filthy job - but someone has to do it, right!

Oh, and everything in your entire shed will end up with a layer of fibreglass dust on it.

Have fun,

Matt


PS I know a couple of blokes who can quote you on the job.

[cormorant]

Thinking about a lesser dust , more control option the reciprical saw may work if there is enough room for the blade on the inside to use it as so many blades are now avaliable. Just slower I've only ever used the small and large angle grinder and a vac attachment gaffer taked on in the early days takes a lot of mess away but not real good for the average vac.


Edit- have a mate wedge up your cut with a few small paddle pop size wood wedges or screwdriver as the only time I snap the thin blades is when they pinch or I am doing something stupid let alone the load I have stuffed putting the grinder on the ground . Big difference in disc quality as well. I have some you can watch flex a huge amount and not shatter ( well not straight away) and yet others are as fragile as can be.


Hi Finga - Yeah I need a fein ( don't we all) and they are now half price compared to a couple of years ago . For the small amount of time I spend on the tools these days I have to justify to myself anything else to add and I have a enthusiastic neighbour who's hobby seems to be collecting new tools and no idea what to use em for. Now to dream up a project where only a fein will do it.;D

[finga]

Thinking about a lesser dust , more control option the reciprical saw may work if there is enough room for the blade on the inside to use it as so many blades are now avaliable. Just slower I've only ever used the small and large angle grinder and a vac attachment gaffer taked on in the early days takes a lot of mess away but not real good for the average vac.
Maaaate I use my 'renovator' type saws heeeeaps. I love them. I even trim my toenails with it (just kidding. I still use the angle grinder for that)
You can use them in really confined spaces (I've used mine to cut wall studs off inside the wall so a top plate can be inserted without the need to rip some inside or outside wall linings off), they can cut flush against something else so can run down the side of the hull to pull out the rotten transom, you can plunge cut anywhere and there is a fraction of the dust as compared to a grinder. They also have a finish cut of less then 1mm.
With the rounder blades you can cut a fairly straight line (well as straight as an angle grinder can)

If you were closer you could grab one of mine and have a go. Brilliant they are. They would have to be just behind battery drills for usefulness I reckon.

[diver dan]

Dan,

I don't know anything about the renovator tool, other than seeing the adds. As many have suggested, go the 1mm cutting blade, you have to be doing something pretty wrong to break them. They cut glass really well, you will chew through a few of them though. The are pretty safe compared to using diamond cutting blades. keep the guard on the grinder and make sure you wear a respirator and gloves, and a dust suit will reduce the itch.

Cutting the top off is just the begining, then you have to cut the inner skin of the transom off, and then get the wood out. Messy, dusty, filthy job - but someone has to do it, right!

Oh, and everything in your entire shed will end up with a layer of fibreglass dust on it.

Have fun,

Matt


PS I know a couple of blokes who can quote you on the job.

I know some people that can do the job for me too but I've always been interested in learning to glass myself. I have another boat I can use in the meantime so no rush anway. I'm thinking about putting a plastic curtain around the boat to minimise glass powder going on everything else.

Most boat rebuilders refuse to use anything but timber in the rebuild whereas I plan to build it with core matt and nema board.

[cormorant]

Timber is cheap , quick and easy , comes in the right thickneses and if done well should last another 30 plus years . There is a bit more skill in using newer products properly and with many designed for vac bagging etc you can save a lot of weight and they should also last a long time.

[diver dan]

Timber is cheap , quick and easy , comes in the right thickneses and if done well should last another 30 plus years . There is a bit more skill in using newer products properly and with many designed for vac bagging etc you can save a lot of weight and they should also last a long time.

This Haines is only 15 years old and choc full of rot, it just goes to show how poor their build quality is out of the factory. My local boat shop is rebuilding all of their boats with synthetic materials that work out to be a similar price to timber anyway. nema board is probably easier to use than timber, similar price and will never rot either. I just want a boat that I don't have to stress about drilling to add ladders and transducers etc. into the transom and washing the inside out with fresh water.

[diver dan]

Also, resale will be better without timber if I ever was to sell it. I think I'll be buying the renovator!

[cormorant]

Have you got any details on bonding to nema and the strength? Is there a special marine nema that bonds with epoxy or glass? I've not used it as a structural element in a transom so interested in how it is done.

[diver dan]

your standard polyester resins stick very well to nema board, my local boat shop has tested it and found it sticks better to the nema board than timber. The nema board comes in various thicknesses so I'll probably use the 28mm for the stringers and 12mm for the floor. I wouldnt recommend nema n the transoms as it might crush esp when using heavy motors. I was planning on using core matt in the transom making it basically solid glass.

[juggernaut]

Similar to the Renovator I've use the Bosch multitool (250 watt version) from Bunnings for odds and sods during my boat reno.

For cutting though a 5 inch grinder with 1mm cutting blade will leave it for dead in terms of cutting speed. Will cut through fibreglass like a hot knife through butter. The only time I've broken a disc is if I've stepped on it!!

The multitool is great for internal cutouts when installing such things as for radio's, stereos etc. For everything else the weapon of choice is the 5 inch grinder with thin cutting disc.

[finga]

Similar to the Renovator I've use the Bosch multitool (250 watt version) from Bunnings for odds and sods during my boat reno.
That's what I have for the rougher type work where it doesn't matter if I drop it etc etc etc. I also have a Fein that is.....well special and I only use it for very detailed work.
If you have a mulitool or any of those sorts of saws this website will be of interest. It's a website full of cheap blades that are extremely good quality.
Instead of $30 or $40 for a blade how about less then $10.
http://fitzallblades.com/

[Stewey]

Thanks for that finga. Have had a bosch multitool for work for the last couple of years. Fantastic tool. I am a tiler and use it daily for cutting door jambs etc off to height. Bosch blades must be gold plated the prices that they charge. Like the look of their range of blades also.

They are a fantastic tool, very versatile.

Stewey

[diver dan]

Just bought a Rockwell multitool from supercheap last night for $49! tried it cutting some excess glass and it worked amazingly well. Very precise and next to no dust! Highly recommend them for anyone with a boat.