My Etec has packed it in

[rcfisher]

Hi all
Just spent 2 weeks on North West Island and in the second week the Etec on our Bar Crusher packed it in. Have now taken it back to the mechanic and he says there are metal parts all through it. Even if we fix it i am not sure i would feel comfortable going offshore by myself. So what are my options? The motor is a 90hp 2006 with 370 hours on the clock.

[Chamelion]

ouch.. sorry to hear it. :(

If it were me.. I'd work out whether it's worth more to sell as is or to get fixed and sell as a reco'd engine. Then I'd go buy myself a Yamaha or Suzuki 4 stroke... But that's just me.

edit: If I had the money of course...

[SunnyCoastMark]

:argue:

Looking for the popcorn and a comfy chair..............

[JB]

Bad luck mate, 370 hours aint a lot... could do what i did... sell it and get a Honda :)

(could be popcorn time :))

[cormorant]

370hrs is not good enough

Metal bits all through it- What was the metal from? Do you know what failed?

What gave way and was there any symptoms or did it just let go?

[propdinger]

i would buy a new motor (any brand of YOUR choice lol ) if you are never going to have confidence in the motor again

[JB]

Come on Jeff we all know honda are the best ;p ...stirs the pot :)

[propdinger]

haha Jason SUZUKI are the best mate

[rcfisher]

Not sure what the metal was from. We are paying to get it pulled apart to find out exactly what and how much to rebuild. A new motor would be nice but i am guessing around 13k +-

[leonp88]

What sort of metal and how did it get there? Was it ever run low on oil etc etc? Would be good to hear more - I have the same model etec with similar hours.

Also, if you had it repaired why wouldn't you feel comfortable going offshore? Sounds like a pretty terminal failure which surely wouldn't be consistent with the make of motor? Least I haven't heard of other similar consistent failures.
More details please!

[SunnyCoastMark]

E-BomB :bomb::bomb:

At least that is what they say. Not saying they are all bad - like anything else I guess - but this one has certainly lived up (or down) to it's rep.

Mark

Certainly be interesting to find out the cause and if it is fixable (realistically)

Mark

[rcfisher]

No the motor has never run out of oil or no alarms have ever gone off. It was serviced the week before we went to the island.
The day it happened we were only 100 meters from the island so it was not a big drama but the day before we were 25 km away with a friend and his 4 year old son so could have been worse.

[Gazza]

Popcorn comment:
you should always upgrade your existing 4 strokers asap before they X-Plode !! ,or due for a MAJOR service.:LOL:

p.s. hmmm....service dudes didnt do a great "service" did they?? :-?
you got paperwork? ,they're prob ,not yours mate

[marto78]

No the motor has never run out of oil or no alarms have ever gone off. It was serviced the week before we went to the island.
The day it happened we were only 100 meters from the island so it was not a big drama but the day before we were 25 km away with a friend and his 4 year old son so could have been worse.

Thats a bloody big coincidence don't you think.

As for running them out of oil they will go into limp mode where they only run just above idle to stop any damage being caused to the motor.

[cormorant]

Not sure what the metal was from. We are paying to get it pulled apart to find out exactly what and how much to rebuild. A new motor would be nice but i am guessing around 13k +-


Not sure how they can see metal in it unless they can hear it rattling around but will be interested to hear what has failed and why. Be great if you can get some photos, plenty of piston and bores with crank and conrods. Even outside warranty I'd be having a chat to BRP if it is a item like a conrod or something that should never let go. Unless you can resolve the reason for failure rebuilding is not a option. There are full powerheads avaliable in the states cheaper than here but you still have to ensure your electronics didn't cause the failure. See what they come back to you with and go from there.

[Tracker]

Not sure what the metal was from. We are paying to get it pulled apart to find out exactly what and how much to rebuild. A new motor would be nice but i am guessing around 13k +-
some one post a link to new powerheads on ausfish about a week ago.maybe worth finding.

[CATchin'Em]

please tell me yeppoon dealer didn't service it. (I personally have no respect for them). How old is it in years??? I am very curious to see pics of all this. make sure you get heaps of photos of it all. were did they find metal???
usually would be in sump but 2 stroke so no sump( or did it spit it out exhaust!!!!)) not sure exactly how etecs work precisely. but they should definately last longer than 370hrs (or if a car at 100m/hr = 37000ks).

[seastorm]

Have you had a look to see if there is any water in your oil tank? I've got a 150 etec which had 160 hours on the clock, we went out one day lucky for me only down the Pin and not off shore, and it started to run rough and would stop at low rev's got back home and took it to the mechanic. He told me too sit down as the motor is RS, somehow it got water in the oil, insurance came to the party but not the full amount. If you go for a new power head they come complete with the lot computer and everything.

[hino310]

Not sure what the metal was from. We are paying to get it pulled apart to find out exactly what and how much to rebuild. A new motor would be nice but i am guessing around 13k +-

With the 90 E-TEC my guess is no.2 or the middle cylinder. Am i correct??

[rcfisher]

No Yeppoon dealer i am based in Brisbane. Not sure exactly where they found the metal. Hope to find out more and get some pics in the next couple of days.
Hey Seastorm did you end up replacing your powerhead? If so at what sort of $ ?

[seastorm]

rcfisher the insurance company wrote the motor off and gave me market value 12.5k (three year old motor 160hr) when they write the motor off it belongs to them controls batteries,props. I had a $500 excess and had to buy the motor back off them for the bottom end it cost me 1k, new power head supplied and installed 13.8k

[Chamelion]

How did you manage to claim insurance on a mechanical failure?

[bobbyb]

bad news mate, just curious what oil you run in it ?

[seastorm]

Chamelion it is classed as contamination in the fluid system and this is covered with Nautilus marine insurance

[Magneto]

If u are considering a another motor, this site Ausfish has a poll running with results from our members is well worth a look here's the link http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/poll.php?pollid=372&do=showresults
One of the posts mentioned Etec's rep, u see why... cheers

[rcfisher]

I have only ever put xd100 oil into it.

[hooked up]

STAY AWAY FROM ETECS
If you dont want to spend 3-3500 on repairs on an 09 model etec stay away buy a decent 4 stroke just got my 130hp etec looked at for using to much fuel and not getting full revs only revving to 5000 rpm after propping it to rev at 5800-5850 i was told the exhaust actuator was broken at the shaft and only method of fixing it is to replace the whole middle section of the leg. Cost 2100for middle section of leg 3-3500 grand after labour these are endless money pits and not all their cracked upto be and also customer service from brp is non exsitant and be carefull dealing wuth a certain etec dealer in ashmore as the will not return my actuator saying i need to pay a $95 invoice for undoing 8 bolts holding my cowling on and 3 bolts that hold the actuator on after already spending hundreds of dollars with them to fix the problem in the past and not doing so only making it use more fuel and not fixing the problem they assured they had fixed to me now in the hand of fair trading qld BE VERY CAREFUL IF CHOOSING AN ETEC
There goes the start of the mackeral season

[Darren Mc]

hey rcfisher,

Sorry to hear about the motor.

I had a '08 150 etec and at about 80hrs did an injector then at about 120hrs the EMM died. So i had it fixed then sold the boat as that was the last straw and didn't trust the motor anymore. The reason i sold the boat was the dealer said they would give me $2500 for the motor, that was after i had it fixed. Unbelieveable, I will never go back to one of those again.

[Boat Hog]

No the motor has never run out of oil or no alarms have ever gone off. It was serviced the week before we went to the island.
The day it happened we were only 100 meters from the island so it was not a big drama but the day before we were 25 km away with a friend and his 4 year old son so could have been worse.

Yep, you're right it could have been a lot worse ...... you could have had twin etecs!

[bar raider]

Is the dealer/person who is looking "into it". the same dealer/person who serviced it before the trip?

If so they might be covering it up as we speak? Maybe a 3rd party should have a look?

[Jerk n Wined]

As another post said, seem weird after you just had a service. The Etecs are a good engine and alot are on the market right now so something is bound to happen. I have suzuki's and the etec are heaps quiter than traveling at speed with alot more go go getting onto the plain. Was the cap left off the oil bottle?
Another question, do you have a vhf radio on board? what are you doing at noth west island with 1 engine? On our last trip we had seen a couple of boats similer to yours 1hr past north west and i just couldnt believe my eyes. If it fails for whatever reason GAME OVER... Your a long way from home and i think people forget how far they have travelled. I am not saying your anything about your boating experience. Just a massive safety factor. Another way to get around this is 2 boats travelling together.

[WalrusLike]

I recall someone on here who volunteers with VMR saying its surprising how many towed skippers say "I've just had it serviced!"

Not saying that caused it... just that after my next service I will be making sure its a easy tow back trip. Just in case.... :)

[fisho64]

I recall someone on here who volunteers with VMR saying its surprising how many towed skippers say "I've just had it serviced!"


probably cause it sounds better than "I wish I filled the tank right up...."

[crab man]

i dont think there is anything rong with a boat running a single motor traveling out that far aslong as they have the right saftey gear , when you spend 15k ? on a motor you should have faith that you can travel any distance with out fear of not returning .
Cheers Craig.
Bloody boats !!

[rcfisher]

Just to clarify we went out there on a barge with 8 other boats and 30 people+-. We do this every year. We were in diirect radio contact with the other boats and fellow campers on North West.

[uripper]

If this is a genuine motor failure not resulting from inadequate maintenance or improper operation then I would be looking for a contribution from Evinrude or I would be posting story (reporting facts accurately) in every website I could find.;)
Mal

[rcfisher]

Yeah i plan on emailing the Australian distributor today but from what other people have said i am not sure of my chances.

[Lancair]

Have you posted about your failure on www.etecownersgroup.com (http://www.etecownersgroup.com) ?

There are some brilliant ETEC techs, like "Huey" from Sydney, who may have the answers you seek.

[rcfisher]

Thank Lancair will have a look.

[cormorant]

Pull the impeller ( installed right?) and check the temp sender and alarm was working if noel is on the right track?

What external fuel filter do you have? Did they ar service change it? Is it on firmly or was th4 fuel getting airated and caused lean ?

[goona]

As another post said, seem weird after you just had a service. The Etecs are a good engine and alot are on the market right now so something is bound to happen. I have suzuki's and the etec are heaps quiter than traveling at speed with alot more go go getting onto the plain. Was the cap left off the oil bottle?
Another question, do you have a vhf radio on board? what are you doing at noth west island with 1 engine? On our last trip we had seen a couple of boats similer to yours 1hr past north west and i just couldnt believe my eyes. If it fails for whatever reason GAME OVER... Your a long way from home and i think people forget how far they have travelled. I am not saying your anything about your boating experience. Just a massive safety factor. Another way to get around this is 2 boats travelling together.

I regulary go out to the Swains with one motor which is some 120klms off shore. II give my cooridinates to my profishing buddy back on shore and radio in with the Coast Guard and advise them of my return time. If he doesn't hear from me within three hours after I should be home he comes a looking. Do I think this is fool hardy. Not at all. I get my boat serviced regulary and have the upmost confidence is my boat handling abilities and the motor. In saying that I do own a Honda!!!

[rcfisher]

Well as of today here is where we are at. The etec to fix is going to cost around $5000 - $7000 to repair depending on new or second hand parts. Even if we spend this sort of money on repairs i do not think i will ever have the same confidence as i used to have with it. If we sell the boat as is i assume we would get nothing for it or if we sell it repaired cant help to think we would be passing our problems on to somebody else. The only other option i can see would be a new motor but at around 15k +- it is an expensive way to go. What do i do now?

[Chamelion]

Can you afford the new motor? If so, go that way.. I'm in a potentially similar position, but a new 40hp would only cost me 4k. Unfortunately, I can't afford it, so I'm kinda stuck. lol

[Darren Mc]

hey rcfisher,

Brisbane yamaha have F100detl four strokes for $12452 Plus fitting. Just for your info...
http://www.##############.com.au/

Just incase you decide to go that way.

[rcfisher]

Would the etec be worth anything to anybody?

[Chamelion]

You could always donate it to me so I can part it out and use the proceeds to replace my 40! haha

It'll be worth something.. How much is anyones guess. If it were me I'd sell it off as parts. You'll make much more doing it that way when compared to selling it as a whole, but broken, unit.

[Darren Mc]

Well like i said earlier on i was offered $2500 for my '08 150 etec in full working order and in like new condition with 120 hrs on it. Problem is, once out of warranty no body want's them.
Ofcourse i didn't sell the motor for that price but i did sell the whole boat and ended up getting a good price that way for the motor.

So your motor probably wouldn't be worth much at all in it's current state.
You may be better off cutting your losses, atleast you would have peace of mind with a new motor.
I know i feel a lot better now i've got my new yamaha 4 stroke. I'll have to pay it off for a while but it's worth it to me.

I feel for you, it's a crap position to be in..

[fisho8]

I would run with a new engine mate that would be the way to go Yamaha are doing some pretty good deals at the moment I would just sell any usable parts off your engine and recoup whatever you can get to help cover a little bit of the cost for a new one. Sad to hear mate but I hope it all works out for you.

[Salad Fingers]

not to put too finer point on it, but of the 4 or 5 boats i've seen towed past me on our major rivers here over the past 2 years they have all been Etec's. All with terminal failures, blown headgaskets, chewed pistons, etc.
My FIL has one and I keep badgering him to get it removed and replaced with something halfway decent... he will learn - and i'll prob have to tow him back in.

Someone mentioned 100yammys are 12.5 or something plus fitting, well a new model 140 suzuk is only 14.8 is or something plus fitting. what is the boat rated to? (this could turn into a whole 'nother discussion)

[cormorant]

seems a crazy amount of $. How much is a fully dressed powerhead? What exactly was the estimate for - rebuild or fully dressed powerhead.

Are you dealing with a evinrude mechanic and dealership?

What did they find when they pulled it down"? What codes where on the computer?

[uripper]

RC
I had a youngish Southwind UB580 with a blown Yam 2stroke so had same dilemma as you. I decided to sell as is & was pleasantly surprised at demand. Suggest you try that as first option.
Bar Crusher has a good rep & should attract solid interest. What is model, age, extras of rig?
Otherwise shop around (takes time & effort) for secondhand motor.
What was cause of the Etec failure & what exactly is the damage??
Don't recommend repair - wont add any value so if your not going to keep it then definitely sell as is. Outboard wrecker may give you a few $$ :'(
Mal

[Noelm]

I was in one of my local dealers this morning and he has a great 100HP yamaha 4 stroke for sale second hand, you don't see too many of them second hand, mind you it is in NSW, but for the right price, it might just be worth a call, they might even do some sort of trade in, you never know.

[julian1]

yep maybe finding a late secondhand engine would be a good choice $$$ wise - you should be able to pick a cheap secondhand Etec ::)

[rcfisher]

Just recieved an email back from brp and it reads as follows

Hi Ryan,

I am sorry to here of your mishap and it likely ruining your holidays. Unfortunately after 6 years and 360 hours of good service one can hardly point at a manufacture fault.
Note that the following is purely suggestive as to possible causes and is not in any way ment as diagnostics.
There are a number of external factors that can cause failure, like poor quality or stale fuel, this can cause excessive carbon build up,creating hotspots in your combustion area which can lead to detonation and eventual failure. Perhaps a one time overheat (plastic bag around the pick up) small pick up on the cylinder that causes no immediate concern but that slowly got worse and eventually failed. Then there is water ingestion. Water in the fuel is frequently diagnosed for a variety of reasons. If not winter stored and serviced properly, ingested water from contaminated fuel or water spray or even condensation can stay on the cylinders and rings, causing rust, in turn causing damage to the engine at first start up after retrieving it from storage. (frequen occurrence)
Also, the problem is you really do not know what happened to this engine while the first owner either and often incidents happen that seem minor and are ignored and forgotten but become detremental in its later life cycle.
These are just a couple of suggestions i can make as to the possible whys. Let me reiterate that after these hours and years, manufacture faults are simply not on the cards and as such BRP is unable to offer any assistance.

[Gazza]

Sounds like back to "faulty service" mate....I "assume" they didn't advise you of metal fragments??....OR...compression issues??
jmo

[cormorant]

Hi Ryan

I am shooting from the hip here as no one other than yourself , your mechanic and BRP knows the full story. Some of the questions asked by people have not been responded to so there is a fair bit of info missing inbetween all the great advice that you bought a lemon brand and should have expected a failure which I am sure you were so happy and excited to read. No other brand will ever fail and the guys who have made the comments will happily pay up for you if it did I'm sure. ;D

I think that reply from BRP is pathetic. Looks like they are happy for their motors not to make 400hrs or 6 years. I understand what they are trying to say and have no idea what you wrote in your letter or if you provided details from your ECU and mechanic to them but a response that leaves you hung out to dry is pathetic and some of the worst coustomer service principals I have ever seen.
Mate I have no idea of the history of this motor and it's servicing by whomever , your mechanical aptitude or the way you treat your gear. However for a firm to say that they have a bag of generalised "outs " of which a vast majority should have in some way set of a alarm or the manufacturer should have a system in place so they can't occur is just plain crazy.

The motor has a water in fuel alarm doesn't it? If it doesn't work to protect the motor and injectors what is the point?
The motor has a temp alarm ? If it doesn't work to protect the motor what is the point?

I am totally oblivious to exactly what the manual now says in regards to how long the motor can be how a motor can be left without winterising it but claiming condensation rusting bores and rings leads to another question? Why aren't the metals used in bores and rings more suitable for such cirmstances? Should etec owners pull the plug and injector leads after flushing and turn it over to get some oily air in there? Without running will any extra oily air actually make it into the pots or do you have to pull the plugs and use a winterising agent?

After hours and years no help is given. Well BRP and any other manufacturer that doesn't wish to help their owners in any way at all . I can say is that eventually you are doomed and you must clue up to forums and the fact people now talk to hundreds of people in a millisecond not just their neighbours and mates.

Considering they were offering a 5-6 year warranty at times around the world I amazed they think it is to old to give a toss about a client.
No offer to determin the cause?
No offer to help on pricing of a used demo motor?
No offer to download full data and review it ?
No offer to have dealer look at set up and see if it has ever been properly installed etc etc. Was it making correct revs , correct fuel system etc etc.

Worse than all this they have done a absolute disgrace to the dealer ( if it is a BRP one helping you) as he will have no chance of getting another sale to you because of head offices first enquiry warranty palm off policy - get rid of crazy client who wanted more than 6 years and 400 hours so it doesn't show on our books as a problem.

There are ways to approach this and be persistant to get a better result in many cases if you were to follow it up and find the reason for failure.

As for other motors or repair. If you were able find a etec ( according to everyone here there should be thousands in the wreckers and hundreds for sale so should be cheap as chips) you would save a lot on set up and have correct prop etc etc Maybe even importing a powerhead direct from the states may be a option? I was interested to read with a failure caused due to water in fuel or oil that a contaminated fluid was settled under insurance policy on boat? May be a angle worth persuing as if BRP say it isn't the computer and is a contamination issue than you may have a valid claim

Not a happy situation and hope something falls your way and you can get back on teh water.

[The Woo]

Just recieved an email back from brp and it reads as follows

Hi Ryan,

I am sorry to here of your mishap and it likely ruining your holidays. Unfortunately after 6 years and 360 hours of good service one can hardly point at a manufacture fault.
Note that the following is purely suggestive as to possible causes and is not in any way ment as diagnostics.
There are a number of external factors that can cause failure, like poor quality or stale fuel, this can cause excessive carbon build up,creating hotspots in your combustion area which can lead to detonation and eventual failure. Perhaps a one time overheat (plastic bag around the pick up) small pick up on the cylinder that causes no immediate concern but that slowly got worse and eventually failed. Then there is water ingestion. Water in the fuel is frequently diagnosed for a variety of reasons. If not winter stored and serviced properly, ingested water from contaminated fuel or water spray or even condensation can stay on the cylinders and rings, causing rust, in turn causing damage to the engine at first start up after retrieving it from storage. (frequen occurrence)
Also, the problem is you really do not know what happened to this engine while the first owner either and often incidents happen that seem minor and are ignored and forgotten but become detremental in its later life cycle.
These are just a couple of suggestions i can make as to the possible whys. Let me reiterate that after these hours and years, manufacture faults are simply not on the cards and as such BRP is unable to offer any assistance.

Unfortunately for you, the BRP rep speaketh the truth. Assuming you advised them of the same info you've provided here? ANY electronically fuel injected engine, whether it be petrol or diesel is extraordinarily sesnitive to fuel quality, particularly water contamination. One drop of water in the wrong spot can mean a serious mechanical disaster is imminent. Given that sensitivity, we're all really pushing sh*t up hill given we boat on the water! Lots of care needs to be taken in the filtration side, and far too many boats are still set up using old carby engine acceptable practice.

Anyway, I do really feel for you. If a fully dressed new powerhead isn't attractive to you (remembering to check EVERYTHING pertaining to the engine around it) then I'd buy a new one. As someone else said, at least that will add value to your boat, and you can use in confidence.

I'm also very keen to see the diagnostics/fault codes etc......

[The Woo]

Hi Ryan

I am shooting from teh hip here as no one other than yourself and BRP knows the full story.

I think that reply from BRP is pathetic. Looks like they are happy for their motors not to make 400hrs or 6 years. I understand what they are trying to say and have no idea what you wrote in your letter or if you provided details from your ECU and mechanic to them but a response that leaves you hung out to dry is pathetic and some of the worst coustomer service principals I have ever seen.
Mate I have no idea of the history of this motor and it's servicing by whomever , your mechanical aptitude or the way you treat your gear. However for a firm to say that they have a bag of generalised "outs " of which a vast majority should have in some way set of a alarm or the manufacturer should have a system in place so they can't occur is just plain crazy.

The motor has a water in fuel alarm doesn't it? If it doesn't work to protect the motor and injectors what is the point?
The motor has a temp alarm ? If it doesn't work to protect the motor what is the point?

I am totally oblivious to exactly what the manual now says in regards to how long the motor can be how a motor can be left without winterising it but claiming condensation rusting bores and rings leads to another question? Why aren't the metals used in bores and rings more suitable for such cirmstances? Should etec owners pull the plug and injector leads after flushing and turn it over to get some oily air in there? Without running will any extra oily air actually make it into teh pots or d you have to pull the plugs?

After hours and years no help is given. Well BRP and any other company that doesn't wish to help their owners in any way all I can say is that eventually you are doomed.

Considering they were offering a 5-6 year warranty at times around the world I amazed they think it is to old to give a toss about a client.
No offer to determin the cause?
No offer to help on pricing of a used demo motor?
No offer to download full data and review it ?
No offer to have dealer look at set up and see if it has ever been properly installed etc etc. Was it making correct revs , correct fuel system etc etc.

Worse than all this they have done a absolute disc=grace to teh dealer ( if it is a BRP one helping you) as he will have no chance of getting another sale to you because of head offices first enquiry warranty palm off policy - get rid of crazy client who wanted more than 6 years and 400 hours so it doesn't show on our books as a problem.

There are ways to approach this and be persistant to get a better result in many cases if you were to follow it up and find the reason for failure.

As for other motors or repair. If you were able find a etec ( according to everyone here there should be thousands in the wreckers and hundreds for sale so should be cheap as chips) you would save a lot on set up and have correct prop etc etc Maybe even importing a powerhead direct from the states may be a option? I was interested to read with a failure caused due to water in fuel or oil that a contaminated fluid was settled under insurance policy on boat? May be a angle worth persuing as if BRP say it isn't teh computer and is a contamination issue than you may have a valid claim

Not a happy situation

You do make a lot of good points re BRP's flippant attitude. Dare I say they've become immune to these types of emails from end users?

[cormorant]

Yeah Woo there is always a reason for a failure. It isn't that hard to find in most cases. You like I know in the real world fuel isn't perfect , so does BRP, and to use that as a excuse is beyond me. Teh problem is teh dealers and BRP for not setting it up to accept teh fuel that comes out of the bowser and is in general use in the country they sell the product in. Does BRP sell external filters and systems and install them when rigging as part of the quote? Maybe they are going to lose that excuse with the new rules OS about sealed fuel systems just like cars and then what do you do - keep every fuel receipt and let BRP and shell/ BP ? caltex decide who pays the bill . Yeah I'm sure that will work.

The plastic bag one is a classic. If the engine ever had a temp issue it should have gone into slow / limp mode. Oh what the temp is in the water system not on the head and metal of the barrels - Bad design - ie design fault - not fit for sale as a water blockage leaves air in there that doesn't transmit the temp till it is cooked. So does it protect your motor or not?

[rcfisher]

Hey guys thanks for all your replys.
The engine never sounded an alarm before it died but may of went into limp mode for about 15 seconds before it died completly. We then tried to restart it and it died after about 10 seconds. The boat was serviced by a brp dealer in Brisbane before we went away and we have a copy of the computer print out from that service. I do not have a lot of mechanical knowledge hence why it is serviced more than specified by an authorised etec dealer. The mechanic tells us that the big end bearing is shot and the crank shaft is shot which has push pieces of metal up into the head. The idel fix would be a new power head which cost around $9000 + fitting.

[Moonlighter]

$9K PLUS fitting makes the decision easy. Get a new motor. Not worth spending anywhere near that and have a half old/half new motor at the end of the process.

There are good deals on Suzukis and the new lightweight 90A is a great motor that would do the job perfectly for you. Or go to a 115 and max out on hp on the Barcrusher. Call Jeffers Motorsport and Marine at burpengary if you are on Northside, or Jon Eadie at Cleveland on south side. They will sort you out.

With a brand new motor you will have confidence and you will always know how it has been treated for its whole life.

Easy for us to say of course, but forget the new power head, that is just a rediculous amount to spend on a motor that age.

[Chamelion]

I bet you'll never own another Etec.

I've done a LOT of reading on outboards the last couple of months. More than I care to admit. From what I've read I won't ever be touching an Etec unless it was free.

[uripper]

…. the big end bearing is shot and the crank shaft is shot which has push pieces of metal up into the head.

…. ANY electronically fuel injected engine, whether it be petrol or diesel is extraordinarily sensitive to fuel quality, particularly water contamination. One drop of water in the wrong spot can mean a serious mechanical disaster is imminent.

For me this again highlights the issue of making high tech performance engines available for a mainstream fisho market. Great when they work but $$ disasters when they don’t. Without wishing to distract this thread, I see it a classic argument for the good old carby 2 stroke banger. Yeah, it uses more fuel but is ultra-reliable, & is cheaper to buy, maintain & fix. Each to their own. ;)

Mal

[ozynorts]

I own a carby two stroke and whilst it is bullet proof I can't fish where I want without carrying a heap of extra fuel in jerry cans on board. I can't wait to go 4 stroke.

[cormorant]

Hey guys thanks for all your replys.
The engine never sounded an alarm before it died but may of went into limp mode for about 15 seconds before it died completly. We then tried to restart it and it died after about 10 seconds. The boat was serviced by a brp dealer in Brisbane before we went away and we have a copy of the computer print out from that service. I do not have a lot of mechanical knowledge hence why it is serviced more than specified by an authorised etec dealer. The mechanic tells us that the big end bearing is shot and the crank shaft is shot which has push pieces of metal up into the head. The idel fix would be a new power head which cost around $9000 + fitting.


On your service did they replace the diaphram in the fuel pump? Does it have a hole in it now and was fuel pushed into the crankcase via the pulse line washing the oil out?

Brilliant news in some ways . Need to find the cause. Get a printout of the emm computer and all codes and times now it has failed. Are the alarms functional and if not why not? Did the dealer servicing do compression checks ? Big end bearings are lubed via air and oil in a etec. No fuel ever goes into a etec crankcase to wash oil out so there is always a oil film on everything.

So that means the BRP ETEC oiling system failed or the crank/ bigend is faulty or there was so much detonation in one cylinder it screwed a bigend????. Not something a owner has any input into? Were the oil lines all still connected? No air in the system? Did they knock or pinch a oil line at service? Is the oil filter sock not clogged in the oil tank? Is there lots of carbon on the piston crowns ( are they all the same) and in the exhaust ports? Were the bearings blue - had they all got hot?

The cranks and bigends like on most 2 strokes are so overengineered it is crazy. Very few fail if there is oil.

There is no alarms to say the oil system was faulty?

Could you ask if there was any sign of rust in the crankcase. If there isn't it can't be moisture that has caused it. Another strike out for the BRP - go away client , not our problem response.

Keep on your mechanic and find out cause of failure. If he is honest and genuine it isn't hard and it won't affect his relationship with BRP if he finds it is a manufactureing fault, computer error etc etc.

At 9k reatail installed the powerhead is a crazy joke. Your failed motors gearbox, tilt trim , guages and controls are all worth something and so are all the parts on the motor . There will be someone out there with a failed EMM who can't afford BRP replacement prices etc etc.


This may or may not be a good motor and a straight swap on ? Tells you what one running is worth and the crazy powerhead replacement cos that I still can't believe. Shame it isn't local but...
http://fishingterritory.com/boats-motors-f10065/2006-90hp-etec-for-sale-t30606.html

[Salad Fingers]

Not sure why you guys are all expecting BRP to do something?
If your 6 year old hilux shat a bearing out its arse do you think toyota would do anything?
MAYBE if it was serviced every 15k at a toyota dealership you might get goodwill for parts only (or more usually cost price on parts) - you'd still have to pay labour. If it was serviced elsewhere toyota would tell you tell someone who cares "bad fuel".

Mechanical faults happen in modern motors everyday, sometimes from neglect, sometimes from mechanics doing dumb sh!t and sometimes from a manurfacturer fault.
They really do seem to happen alot more commonly in etecs though, lol.

[rcfisher]

Hi Cormorant
Thanks again for your help. I will speek to the mechanic in the next couple of days to get some more answers.

[rcfisher]

Hey Salad Fingers
I guess my main gripe is that it has been serviced by an autorised dealer more than they recomend and BRP do not want to know about it. A new 90hp etec is around 12k this one is around 10k to fix so i guess if Toyota were to quote $40000 to fix a $50000 hilux which was only 6 years old i would like to think that Toyota would a least want to find out what went wrong .

[honda900]

Not sure why you guys are all expecting BRP to do something?


Salad Fingers,

My Honda cbr1000 1 year out of warranty, 12000k on the clock. Honda replaced the stator no questions asked, Good business if you ask me..

Regards
HOnda.

[Shawn 66]

…. the big end bearing is shot and the crank shaft is shot which has push pieces of metal up into the head.

…. ANY electronically fuel injected engine, whether it be petrol or diesel is extraordinarily sensitive to fuel quality, particularly water contamination. One drop of water in the wrong spot can mean a serious mechanical disaster is imminent.

For me this again highlights the issue of making high tech performance engines available for a mainstream fisho market. Great when they work but $$ disasters when they don’t. Without wishing to distract this thread, I see it a classic argument for the good old carby 2 stroke banger. Yeah, it uses more fuel but is ultra-reliable, & is cheaper to buy, maintain & fix. Each to their own. ;)

Mal

Ye Hah ,
As well as an etec thread , we have managed to slip in a post about 2 stroke v's 4 stroke .
Where is the popcorn?
Shawn

[ozscott]

I think his post was about old tech v new tech. Just so happens that all new 4 strokes are new tech. What he said is true its just that where some people fish its impractical and way too expensive give you fuel usage to have a carb 2 stroke. I see modern motors as being a wonderful under warranty ownership proposition, especially for pro guys and those who don't let their fuel and motors sit idle...

Cheers

[Camhawk88]

…. the big end bearing is shot and the crank shaft is shot which has push pieces of metal up into the head.

…. ANY electronically fuel injected engine, whether it be petrol or diesel is extraordinarily sensitive to fuel quality, particularly water contamination. One drop of water in the wrong spot can mean a serious mechanical disaster is imminent.

For me this again highlights the issue of making high tech performance engines available for a mainstream fisho market. Great when they work but $$ disasters when they don’t. Without wishing to distract this thread, I see it a classic argument for the good old carby 2 stroke banger. Yeah, it uses more fuel but is ultra-reliable, & is cheaper to buy, maintain & fix. Each to their own. ;)

Mal


Optis dont seem to have anywhere near the dramas that Etecs do so obviously the Etec FI system is fundamentally flawed.

[weeman]

Salad Fingers,

My Honda cbr1000 1 year out of warranty, 12000k on the clock. Honda replaced the stator no questions asked, Good business if you ask me..

Regards
HOnda.

What year was the bike?

[myusernam]

american quality assurance is pretty shxt if you ask me, in a lot of things they manufacture. that siad, mercs do seem to be pretty good on the whole. I guess being the worlds largest outboard manufacturer helps. I work for a national brand of comletely unrelated stuff and our american built systems and components are never as good. I think it's a cultural thing. Too good a lifestyle, not enough pride in their work, too much competition. Cant beat the anal japs for manufacturing reliability and design IMHO

[Moonlighter]

The other option is a Tohatsu TLDI 90. I had one on my last boat and it was magnificent, and very very fuel efficient. Quite a bit cheaper than any of the alternatives at the time I bought it. Probably still is. I think Jon Eadie can probably get one of them for you too if you were interested.

Made in Japan, so quality was never a question. I received a recall notice for a minor issue well after warranty had expired and done at no charge.

A further option you might like to consider is as follows. I am thinking of upgrading my current Suzuki 115 4 stroke, still over 2 years warranty left, to one of the new 140's. Motor has just over 150 hours on it and in perfect condition, stainless prop. It is on my Surtees (boat pictured in my avatar) which is much the same as a Barcrusher 530C which sounds like what you have.

PM me if interested and we can talk a deal!

Cheers

ML

[kizza1]

90 opti is only $12000 fitted.

first thing you need to do is detimine what caused the failure.

i have had a few insurance claims approved for contaminated fuel before.
if it still leads back to mechanical failure i then i would be contacting brp via phone and request if you can purchase a powerhead at cost or if they have a demo engine you can purchase.

[BazzaD]

Really sorry to hear about your issue.

This has me confused: could some one 'please explain' how contaminated fuel could cause a big end failure in a direct injection engine?

I am sure if you provide BRP an indication of the findings they may provide a list of potential causes other than fuel quality. One would suggest the oil system needs a thorough going over by an independent mechanic, you can be sure your dealer won't put his hand up if it's something he did wrong.

[cormorant]

Bazza contamination of the oil be it with air or water is where I was headed. Lots of toluline, paint thinner, acetone in fuel can kill the pulse lift pump diaphram and wash oil from the crankcase at a longshot. Also cause detonation / knock and extra load on big end. Big ends are so oversize to start with in that motor and rarely ( if ever) fail so unless there is a oil pump/ injector failure, with alarm failure etc etc it might just be a bearing collapse from badly manufactured bearing or one that for some reason had a oil pipe kinked at some point in the motors life.
A badly dribbling injector may at a long shot or computer EMM injecting late and sparking too early?
Too much fuel causing carbon , then hard carbon and bore scoring then overload big end?
Water in fuel, injector siezes. No combustion means no gasflow so reeds don't open much so little oil / air mix vaporises and bearing after many hours gives up due to extra loads an dbore scuffing due to lack of oil.


BRP know the big end is overbuilt and unless it was a manufacturing fault, no oil or water in there they should last forever so are doing the blanket - "not our problem" . Sort of sucks especially if over serviced by them and if on further ivestigation a cause can be found like the EMM is stuffed. Colour of bearings , type of piston scoring , impeller condition and so on should tell a good mechanic a little about what has happened and should be able to find the cause.
Stuffed airflow sensor - emm puts in wrong mix.
This could be a simple stuffed impeller ( badly fitted, cracked housing, no key in it) with a dodgy engine temp alarm , wire not attached and the big end just happened to be the last thing that broke before it stopped .
Barometer in EMM amy be stuffed giving wrong fuel oil map.
Replaced injector without EMM coefficients being updated
Dodgy fue - 20 % ethanol fuel - EMM runs it lean and as boat is heavy for a extended journey piston expands or just gets too hot scores and overloads big end eventually kaboom- failure.
Head gasket failure, water washes oil off bore , scores, binds
Sucks the screw that holds the butterfly on in the plenum - jambs in main or scores bore. Reed sucked in.

I'm with you I would have had the dealer check warranty history of the motor,check all the service work just done, pull it down with a independent engineer beside him and discover exactly what went on and why starting at the beginning proving all alarms were working, downloading the EMM report , checking external fuel , filters, all startic injector and drop tests etc etc and then oil system check, oil quality then start the wrench work stripping it.

A quick look at thngs can rule out 90 % of possible causes by someone who wants to know the right answer.

The thing about all the directed injected motors is the computers on them are really smart and compensate when power is lost in one cylinder by adjusting the timing and injecting more fuel to try and make the same power output at the % throttle position from the other cylinders. They are so smooth and balanced and adjust the idle automatically Etec don't have a exhaust temp or burn sensor / oxygen sensor so the computer assumes all is OK if it makes teh revs and doesn't overheat. It just asumes a extra 10 fat blokes got on board with eskies or you are running it just off the plane . Even other brands only have one combined exhaust sensor so one cylinder can still have a problem and if within in the parameters in the Computers map no alarm sounds. In a perfect world you want to know the correct oil , fuel and air mix actually made it into each cylinder and combusted to produce exact power not a average combined guestimate from all cylinders and a assumption that a single temp sender will tell the whole story quick enough to stop a implosion. .

[Fed]

A shot big end would have been banging its head off well before any rollers or large enough metal escaped to stop the engine.
Did you hear any noise, like BANG BANG BANG BANG?

[uripper]

another thread with second hand motor purchase http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?187724-New-boat-project

Keith Falkenhagen from Jeffers MotorSport Marine at Burpengary is a Suzuki dealer and originally sold this motor to one of his clients who wanted to upgrade to the new DF140a with lean burn. I paid $8500 fitted and serviced. It's an '07 model with 560 hrs in very good nick and had been regularly serviced by Keith since new. I was very impressed with Keith and his team. I suspect there will be more on the market soon as others will no doubt want to upgrade also.

[NQ-FISH]

Gazza
I think cormorant is on right track i would be talking to BRP i have two 130s done in access of 600hrs done a starter on one at just under 600hrs spoke to BRP though my local dealer and they replaced it under warranty worth a try.

[rcfisher]

85908859078590685905
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/misc/pencil.png

[Fed]

Use the 'Go Advanced' button to post your pics RC.

[rcfisher]

85913859128591185910

[Chimo]

Why is it so?

C
C

[ozscott]

I thought anti corrosion coating had got a little better than that.

That's some serious pitting in the piston.

Cheers

[Chimo]

But why? Is it lack of oil or what?

C
C

[rcfisher]

Sorry guys just put the pics up between customers at work.
I went and picked up the boat yesterday afternoon and the mechanic told me it is nothing to do with lack of oil or water it was just a bad piston. From what he tells me the small bearing up inside the piston would of went a long time before the one at the end if it was from lack of oil and also the marks around the outside of the piston would have been a lot more extreme. I am going back early next week to pick up the rest of the engine and to get the emm report which will show any fault codes.

[Spaniard_King]

Looks to me like the piston ring locating pin has come adfift and floated around inside the combustion chaimber, seen this before in the mid 90's V6's

The sandwhich plate looks consistent with salt build up not corosion

[Fed]

Have you had it since new RC?
I'm surprised you never heard anything I was standing about 20' away from one at the ramp & couldn't even hear it running so you'd think you could hear that kind of damage going on.
It got me thinking of retro fitting an etec muffler on my old bomb.
Broken bearing cage letting the rollers out? You'd think they would just fall to the bottom, there must be a hell of a cyclone going on in there to push them up to the combustion chamber.
Terrible thing for a relatively new motor.

[Salad Fingers]

that looks like classic detonation damage to me - pitting in the top of the piston would have been from a small corner of the piston coming adrift.
a faulty piston does not cause your bigend to go - detonation will.

If i was a gambling man i would put my money on it running lean on one cyl. faulty injector perhaps.
Post up a picture of the spark plugs.

that thing must have been making such a noise.

[Fed]

Not mine just a file photo to compare.

Detonation possibly caused by an overheat?
85931
Check the swollen deflector blocking the top cylinder off.

To me the etec piston looks like hammer marks from rollers suggesting the bearing failed first.
Same thing happened on my previous 70HP (gudgeon bearing) but it was 30 years old.

Does anyone know how an etec oiling system works, how the oil gets to all the parts that need it?

[cormorant]

Hi

Mechanic said it was a bad piston? Does he mean part of teh skirt or top edge broke off ?

If that is what he thinks then I see it as 100% warranty claim?? Not like you can affect a piston failing as it had no codes so it had oil and is a manufacturing fault. .

Spaniard is right about the pin possibly causing those marks and have seen part of a ring do the same.

I have seen same physical marks on a piston when the conductor off a spark plug has broken off then eventually spat out the exhaust port. Not sure how that can combine with a bearing that gets chewed up?
If it is the bearing that chewed up and it is only the big end and there is no oil codes and assuming teh damage on teh piston is a piece of bearing spat through then again it is not a consumer fault but a manufacturing fault. If all teh other bearings from teh other pisyons are in a1 condition and oil system was OK then it has to be a manufacturing fault be thata bearing failure or crank issue.

Were none of the other pistons/ bores and head affected ?

Be interesting to see what teh real diagnosis by the mechanic is and why BRP won't consider it?