Selecting a Trailer and Tow Vehicle

[stevemid]

I've had such a laugh re-reading http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?184446-kevlacat-2400 that I almost missed the seriousness of the trailer and tow vehicle rating discussion with respect to choosing a trailer, buying a tow vehicle, and most importantly: staying legal.

Can I ask for some feedback on my preliminary sums:
The boat's weight when built and fitted out is called lightship weight and includes all the boat's gear (motors, electrics, electronics, anchors, etc) but no fluids or personal gear. This is estimated at 1250kg which includes only 190kg (2X95kg for 50 hp motors) of motor weight
For trailering, I have to add
Weight of trailer: ~750
Personal Load
Fuel: ~200
Ice: ~ 125
Water 100
Drink (10kg/slab): 10
Fishing equipment: 50
Food: 15
Weight of bigger motors (70 vs. 50 hp) 50kg
Say 550kg total
That should give me an estimated boat weight of 1800kg and a total AGM of (1250+750 +550) 2550kg
I assume tools could be carried in the truck.
So: 2 conclusions regarding towing and the trailer:

I need tow vehicle rated to tow 2550kg with no buffer 2800 kg would be better
I need a trailer rated to carry a boat of at least 1800 kg which is 200kg under the 2T limit where RTA rules on braking kick in.


I also assume that at trailer rated to 2T would have engineered into it a sufficient safety margin? Or should I buy more safety margin?
Comments on the above please?
More Questions:
How heavily do the police scrutinise weight WRT trailer and tow vehicle ratings? Has anyone ever been actually checked and weighed by the police?

How do trailer and tow vehicle manufacturers arrive at their ratings and is there anything I could do to "beef up" the rating of the tow vehicle? of the trailer?

If you are building your own trailer, I guess you take it to a certifier to get it rated.
...What parts do you beef up to get it rated higher?

Any other comments sincerely appreciated.

Steve

[Mister]

That should give me an estimated boat weight of 1800kg and a total AGM of (1250+750 +550) 2550kg
I assume tools could be carried in the truck.

So: 2 conclusions regarding towing and the trailer:
I need tow vehicle rated to tow 2550kg with no buffer 2800 kg would be better
I need a trailer rated to carry a boat of at least 1800 kg which is 200kg under the 2T limit where RTA rules on braking kick in.

I also assume that at trailer rated to 2T would have engineered into it a sufficient safety margin? Or should I buy more safety margin?
Comments on the above please?
Steve

Point #2 is not correct, (unless you carry absolutely nothing extra?) a trailer is rated to the max load and the weight also includes the trailer etc. At 2550kg you would be over the 2 tonne GTM weight requiring brake-a-way on all wheels / axles. At this 2 tonne mark you can split hairs all day re brake requirements but obviously there is really no difference in this regard between 1990kg and 2010kg in respect to stopping capability at max weight.

How police scrutinise trailer weights etc is really not the best question .... your liability and insurance if involved in an accident will be null and void totally if not compliant.

[johncar]

I think once you go over your 2Tonne ATM you may as well build the trailer to 3.5T spec. Pretty sure you can build your own trailer in Qld at least but would probably have to have it road worthy inspection prior to registering and also Qld transport inpection.
Yes I agree the police and transport department are the least of your worries if using anything overloaded or illegal. If involved in a nasty collision could really cost you a lot and not worth the risk IMO.
It is just better to buy a suitable tow vehicle to match your proposed max load with a little head room preferably. There are some ways to have certain vehicles upgraded I believe but it is not simple or cheap.

[EdBerg]

From my last experience building my 3.4T trailer in Qld., if you are building your own trailer then the onus is on you to make sure that you build the trailer to the required trailer guidelines, you can get them from the DOT, which I might say are generally ambiguous at best. If you build a trailer designed by an engineer, their out is that if it breaks they can and will most likely say that you didn't build it according to their specifications and/or the welds were not according to specifications, therefore wash their liability of it in case it breaks. So unless you are a qualified ticketed welder you would be hard pressed to prove that the welds were ok.

You, as the builder are responsible for it for all time. Hence most people overbuild them just to make sure and cover their butts, as for the certification, for the roadworthy certificate, the only things they check for is that it meets the requirements for trailers; IE it has brakes on all right sized and rated axles, tyres of sufficient capacity,the right amount of lights in the correct positions, chains etc and that's about it. They do not and will not certify that it is of sufficient strength, that the welds are good or that it is designed properly, that onus is on you. I seriously doubt that any of the testers have the engineering technical qualifications to determine that! I was the one who specified that it had a 3.4 ton capacity, but I could have said anything from 2T up to 3.49t, with 3.5t and above weight rating there are a lot more things to worry about.

If you need a trailer that goes above 2t then the same sort of requirements are needed as mine at 3.4t, you will also need a weigh bridge certificate in addition to the roadworthy certificate to get it registered, to beef up the trailer you need to ensure that you use the appropriate sized steel and braking system to match the weight, I put larger sized hydraulic disk rotors and an electric over hydraulic breakaway system on mine connected to an in vehicle brake controller.

As for the vehicles towing capacity, just 'cause a vehicle is rated for a particular rating doesn't mean that you should tow at that rating, it may tow that weight but it might not do it or handle well when towing at the max rating! Just some points to consider and there is a lot to consider. That's the reason a lot of people just get a ready made trailer from a trailer company as then the onus is on that company for the design and construction and liability.
If you aren't a very good welder do you want to take the chance of the welds failing. I chose a turbo diesel SUV to tow mine that way I get good fuel economy whether I am towing or not.

Funny thing is that according to the regulations I can and am allowed build a large 8m 3.4t trailer, however I am not allowed to build a tow bar for the vehicle to hook it up to which is far simpler! >:( Go figure!!

[Jarrah Jack]

You're also allowed to build and renovate your own boat EB. My mate just finished his 5 mtr platey and had never welded before. What a wonderful freedom to have away from the nannies everywhere else I reckon.

PS I went out in the boat a number of times in croc infested waters I'm still here.;D

[EdBerg]

You're also allowed to build and renovate your own boat EB. My mate just finished his 5 mtr platey and had never welded before. What a wonderful freedom to have away from the nannies everywhere else I reckon.

PS I went out in the boat a number of times in croc infested waters I'm still here.;D

Insurance is another thing though, when I went to get my refitted boat insured, one company refused to insure it, even though my boat modifications were cosmetic or fittings, and no changes to the hull itself, things such as seat bases, duckboard or carpeting etc. as I am retired and do not have registered business any more, they didn't want to know me, despite me doing this sort of thing for most of my life. Another would only increase the value of the boat by the purchase price of the boat and the cost of my material, ie; $800 for the Fibreglass and $6000 for the 3.4t trailer I built, needless to say I declined their "generous offers".

Building a boat now probably requires a set of engineered plans and a engineers report that the boat is built to design specs and also a survey before some insurance companies will cover it.

It is getting harder by the day.

[Chimo]

Steve

Insurance and your liability if some clown runs into you are the issues that IMHO you need to address.

I was in the same boat, pardon the pun; with my trailer which had to have elec over hydraulic break away with in car controller to be legal and insurable!. If your at or just above 2000kg you cannot avoid it and if your intend on keeping what you have in retirement and not losing the house etc to pay some 3rd party claim thats it.

Did you go an further with that patrol as it or similar for minimum dollars, would seem the tow machine you will require ?

Cheers
Chimo

[stevemid]

Thanks guys,
Chimo, I had struck a deal on that one however I couldn't get it registered in NSW; they wouldn't recognize the Qld importation certificate. A real shame, so I'm still looking.
steve

[Chimo]

Unbelievable!!!!!

C
C

[Fed]

Build an alloy trailer, cable disks & rollers.
200Kg on the ball 1999Kg on the wheels.
Chuck the rest of your stuff in your car.
Go fishing.

(Firm up your weights before committing, ie weigh the boat)

A friend of mine has knocked up 4 alloy boats & trailers over the last few years and there are no special things to worry about with the RTA, if you want I'll PM you a contact link to him he's a nutjob but he will help you.

[PB]

Build an alloy trailer, cable disks & rollers.
200Kg on the ball 1999Kg on the wheels.
Chuck the rest of your stuff in your car.
Go fishing.

(Firm up your weights before committing, ie weigh the boat)



A friend of mine has knocked up 4 alloy boats & trailers over the last few years and there are no special things to worry about with the RTA, if you want I'll PM you a contact link to him he's a nutjob but he will help you.



Ball weight has nothing to do with GTM, the RTA wont deduct the 200kg ball weight from the total (trust me ive looked into it). its a 24 foot boat, your an idiot if you are going to tow it without breakaway and Electric over Hyd disk brakes.
we did a 21KC alloy trailer tow weight was 2.3t with half fuel and no gear.
don't know what the RTA in other states are like but ive seen portable way bridge set up on the side of the road weighting boats in VIC they disconnect the car and weigh the trailer separate.

Cheers Pelagic Boats.

[Mister]

Ball weight has nothing to do with GTM, the RTA wont deduct the 200kg ball weight from the total (trust me ive looked into it).

Well yes (ball weight) certaintly does have something to do with GTM as ATM is the sum of GTM + Ball weight so the higher the ball weight a tow vehicle can handle then the lower the GTM will be. The RTA doesn't have to deduct anything, all they have to do is weigh the rig over the axles and that is GTM, more than 2000kg then over-ride break-away etc is required.

These are national regulations so any state (including the RTA) who tries to pull anything different is not following the National trailer standard



its a 24 foot boat, your an idiot if you are going to tow it without breakaway and Electric over Hyd disk brakes. yes would definately agree with that and as previously mentioned 1999kg GTM might be technically legal but really not very smart .... at all.



don't know what the RTA in other states are like but ive seen portable way bridge set up on the side of the road weighting boats in VIC they disconnect the car and weigh the trailer separate.

That's fine and as long as they know the difference and can determine the relative differences between ATM & GTM then no problem.

[Fed]

its a 24 foot boat, your an idiot if you are going to tow it without breakaway and Electric over Hyd disk brakes.Well that's a bit harsh PB, it's a very light 24' boat, did you read the thread?

I say if it's legal then do it I'm sure there would be a good safety margin between legal & dangerous.

BTW PB, you're wrong about the weighing stuff.

[PB]

That's fine and as long as they know the difference and can determine the relative differences between ATM & GTM then no problem.

Thats the problem they don't understand. we went down this path with Edencraft and there gall trailers, they put 250kg on the ball and that brings the weight done to about 3450kg, i spoke to a Highway copper and he looked in to it for me, they are now weighing the trailers not hooked up to the tow vehicle.. i believe it has something the do with the 3.5t & 2.0t couplings

[Mister]

Thats the problem they don't understand. we went down this path with Edencraft and there gall trailers, they put 250kg on the ball and that brings the weight done to about 3450kg, i spoke to a Highway copper and he looked in to it for me, they are now weighing the trailers not hooked up to the tow vehicle.. i believe it has something the do with the 3.5t & 2.0t couplings

Ball couplings are related to ATM and that is exactly the way they should be weighed, disconnected from the vehicle and scales under all axles and jockey wheel to determine 3.5t & 2.0t couplings etc.

And I think they do understand as 3450kg + 250kg is 3700kg and that is over 3.5t ATM hence beyond the capacity of a 50mm ball and a whole new ball game.

[PB]

Well that's a bit harsh PB, it's a very light 24' boat, did you read the thread?

I say if it's legal then do it I'm sure there would be a good safety margin between legal & dangerous.

BTW PB, you're wrong about the weighing stuff.

Yes it did sound a bit harsh but wasn't meant to be sorry if i offended the Author. at the end of the day its still a big trailer boat and is a very fine line between over or under, for the saving of a few $$ its not worth the risk. we are starting to see a trend with some new trailers, people are fitting 4 wheel disk brakes with breakaway an trailers under 2t they just work so much better and a lot easier on the tow vehicle.

[PB]

Ball couplings are related to ATM and that is exactly the way they should be weighed, disconnected from the vehicle and scales under all axles and jockey wheel to determine 3.5t & 2.0t couplings etc.

And I think they do understand as 3450kg + 250kg is 3700kg and that is over 3.5t ATM hence beyond the capacity of a 50mm ball and a whole new ball game.

Yes you are spot on, thats the way it should be done but from what i was told they are not.

[stevemid]

OK.. Thanks to everyone for running the ruler over this. As it stands, The boat and trailer will be well over 2 ton so in my mind, there is no question about the trailer: brakes on all four wheels, break-away braking, battery on the trailer and in-car controller are all in the plan. Where I really needed precision in the figures was the tow vehicle. At 2550 AGM, I can easily keep the weight within the capacity of some very economical tow vehicles http://www.beadelltours.com.au/tow.html, instead of competing with every Tom Dick and Harry for a decent Patrol. Mind you, I'd still jump on a decent Turbo Diesel Patrol, but I'm not confined to that.

So, the plan is: spend the budget on building the boat, put it on a mooring where there's some visibility from the foreshore to keep the thieves away. Next: build or modify a trailer to suit the boat. Once I get that underway, there are heaps of potential tow vehicles to choose from. BTW I've got a 1996 Saab convertible 900s 102,000 kms, that I've owned since new. Happy to trade for a great tow vehicle!

Again thanks to all who responded. I can't believe what a helpful fraternity you all are.

Steve