Making upholstered fibreglass box/bait tank. Advice wanted..

[deckie]

Hiya. After about a year of work induced distractions on this project i'm hoping to finish it off for this summer, and was hoping for some advice re fibreglassing. Doing a bit of research now and will make in a month or two after learning/deciding best way to go. Done my share of amateur glassing but never used any sort of mould and wondering if its easy enough to do, in which case whats the best way to attack it ?

Quick search around the house found a couple of 50-60l plastic bins i trialled in various positions to get a feel for it. I want to build a livey tank that doubles as a place to plonk my arse. Upholster myself a comfy seat/lid for it. If it works i might build another as a utility/storage bin, and if sweet result i might make bigger ones as seat pods who knows. Happy with just a livey tank/seat right now to learn.

Water/fittings for livey tank and deckwash all ready done. Want it to fit normally down back with a simple overflow when in use, but also fit snuggly between bunks in cuddy cab where i can shift weight fwd if wanted or just get out of the way, and attach a Y piece to the existing anchor well drain i can access easily and use that for the overflow up front.

I keep coming back to an oval shape so it fits both spaces planned...i.e. invert the white bin in the piccy. Roughly 60-80l overall, about 500-550mmH, 500-550mmL and 350mmWidest point of the oval. Too small ?

Should i wax/polish the inside of a suitable plastic container about 70l, gelcoat/flowcoat then apply a few layers of glass ? Will it pop out ok from this type of poly/plastic mould ? Not bother waxing ? Should i stick with original plan of using thin bendy ply to make exact oval(ish) shape to fit, glass both inside and out then grind/sand/flowcoat ? Is there a material i could make a mould out of or just as easy to glass and flowcoat some thin ply then sand to finish ? I have some leftover 4-5mm bendy ply i can treat which will easily do an oval shape this size.

Looking for a fairly schmick factory type finish by the end. Any easy way to do the top and bottom ? Cpl of pics of some house bins in the rear slot...oval one seems to fit very nicely evrywhere but can do any shape/size. Light weight is very important. Could be a nice winter project and learn heaps.

tx in advance for any wise words. 8078580786
Steve.

[Chimo]

Hi Steve

Use the white one. Fit a male hose fitting (spout to the outside) to the base and fill the insides of the fitting with wax so you can lay up over top of it.

To get your moulded frp product out hook up the garden hose and blow the new box / tank out of the mould.

Dont forget the release agent on the inside of the mould before you apply gell coat etc.

I used to get lazy and leave out the gell coat and just mix flocoat (5 to 10 % ) with the resin and then the colour goes right through what your making. If you lay up on the resin rich side of things you will get a smooth rich finish and may not even need to paint flocoat on to finish off.

Cheers
Chimo

[cormorant]

Just some ideas
You need huge outlet fittings with grill so squid don't escape ( more than outlet so 1 squid don't block it) ) on a livey tank as you want good flow of water and you don't want it to overflow in the boat especially if it is not self draining as you will soon fill a bilge with water. A anchor well drain will never ever be big enough. You will sink??? I am not a fan of livebait tanks inside non self draining decks for this reason and better off for one mounted over the back where a overflow won't sink you. If mounted on deck all hoses must be accessible and easily seen so you can see and hear if you are sinking and have a auto bilge pump to warn you. I know of at least 3 boats sunk by livey tank overflows including a $200k cat with sealed decks but a bad fitting whick was left overnight at a wharf with tank running for a early morning fish. One pesky squid, one poor engine box seal , and one bad fitting made a intersting insurance claim for that.


As for using things as moulds you need to determin if they were blow moulded , rotationally moulded or injected and if the mould originally used was not a complicated many piece one otherwise you may not get yours out. Some very fancy moulds out there to get fancy edges and complex shapes. They look injected so should be ok but hard to tell from the photos if they have decent tapers and large rounding on all edges. FG is harder to get a better finish on tighter corners. A lot of plastic containers distort a lot as they cool after manfacture , are very thin and not very solid so you need to either make them solid / flat ( glue / screw on supports , battons or box it up. ) or get a thicker container. Many plastics will soften as the heat generated by a thick FG layup so you may need a slow lay up to keep it cold.

You need it strong and you need some safe way of securing 100kg tall object to boat whan it is full of water. For a smichk finish top and bottom you will need a decent mould and decide if you do it all in one piece. No end on ways to cheat

For all the above reasons is why a lot of people decide on square ones and make up a mould box themselves out of MDF or such , use plasticine to get nice curved corners as the base mould. I know some liveys are not bright and swim into a corner but a square one and shallower makes it easier to have a divider screen to keep separate squid and liveys.


Apart from waxing a mould over and over again we have used watered down pva glue in a spray pot and a few coats . It skins up and gives a OK finish on the gelcoat and saves a lot of bashing or destroying a weak mould with lots of air or water pressure. It just washes of both the mould and the item but won't give you that professional lustre which will need a quick wet and dry and then a not so quick cut/ polish with a buff.


Gotta work out how much your time is worth and just what finish you will get. Just done a quick search and there is some well priced options already out there you may have already have looked at? You are up for $300 in materials for FG if you don't have stuff and tools lying around.

http://www.pmmarine.com.au/livebait/index.html

These guys already have moulds

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Boat-Seat-Box-Small-/270986478324?pt=AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f180d82f4

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Reefrunner-Live-Bait-Tank-Brand-NEW-/150780690852?pt=AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item231b3ac1a4

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LIVE-BAIT-TANK-MARLIN-FISHING-BAIT-SPORTS-GAME-FISH-BOAT-TACKLE-PARTS-AC-NEW-/190680753975?pt=AU_Accessories_Tackle&hash=item2c65756737


This one sold a week or so ago - Bargain - about the size you wanted split in 2

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item4165f27c3d&item=280883264573&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&rt=nc&si=M9%252Bg%252B9%252FWRf%252B16x0FOMNoliO4AWg%253 D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Alloy a option? Draw it up and use a local fabricater for cash and get exactly what you want.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-boat-seat-box-590L-x-400W-x-365H-rear-lounge-/221035648132?pt=AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3376c05484

[deckie]

Hey tx for getting back guys. Bit short of time atm but had a quick glance and brilliant advice for a novice like me looking for a project and learn.
Will get back a bit later. tx again for your time. Steve

[deckie]

Tx Chimo and cormorant. Fills in most of the gaps. Doesnt sound too difficult, but the more i now think of it the more i think it might be just as easy to mock up a thin ply frame, hit it with everdure, then glass in and out, flowcoat and sand down thru the grades. Might be stronger too for little extra weight. I've got leftovers of poly resin, thin ply, bendy ply, everdure, flowcoat and even some dark blue tint.
Did another search and willow make a cpl of damn useful looking bins about 50l that look great as a tank...but i really want it to fit snug on both slots back and front. I think i'm no chance to even get the dimensions close. The ultimate shape to fit is a chopped off oval shape so it slots right up between bunks fwd and easy to secure strong, as well as being able to secure using the 1inch s/s uprights down back. More i think of it the more fiddly the mould is getting...i was thinking it might be the easiest and learn something new.

Other thing is that its just as much for storage and seating as a livey tank, so really wanted it out of the way but able to xfer down back if catching bait. Not always going out to fish on this rig and mainly inshore work it'll see this time around. Figure if its handy for other things it'll go out every time and i;ll never be short a livey tank and it'll never be in the way.

If i just glass over thin ply how many layers of what type of glass would u recommend in and out ? Not going with epoxy resin or even vinylester. Will reinforce thicker subframe on base plus wherever hinges attach, bungs/inlets/outlets and handles etc.

Is peel ply worth the effort for the finish ?

Hey cormorant...cheers for the reminder about sinking the boat. I can see how it can happen geeeezus. Yes its a sealed deck and there's a small 1100 pump with float switch above deck already in place at transom. You've also got me thinking i could get away with just a recirculating tank...fill it with deckhose and shove a small pump in it to aerate, replace water occasionally. Easy enough to increase skin fitting for anchor well to 1 1/2 inch as a dual outlet..you got me running scared of squid blocking the outlet now ;D..and waking up on the beach looking out and seeing the boat sunk at anchor. Can see how it can happen.

Any more hints/tips i'd love to hear...i guess i;m now leaning away from the mould but would like to be convinced either way.

[feral cat]

8081880824808178082280819808238082080825Deckie i had simular ideas,room,storage and esky live bait tank was allways an issue.So i ended up pricing some seat boxes off noosa cat and kevlacat and nearly fell over when i was told the price.The ones on ebay are to small for my liking so i had to make my own.This how i went about it.After lots of ringing around i found a place called vanglass in yandina.They have offcuts from sides of carravans (windows doors and so on)the offcuts are polar white gelcoat then 3 layers of 450,23mm high density foam then 2 layers of 450.I grabbed a heap of offcuts and got started.Best part was i can custom make to suit my boat.80816You can see on the edges they are butted together.talc and resin with 1 layer of 450 on edges to give a smooth finish on outside then inside is 3 layers of 450 on edges.
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/misc/pencil.png
80817On left is 220ltr esky and the right is 100 ltr storage up front and 100 ltr live bait tank80821808308082980829All glassed in floor and new seats.Going this way has made much more room and comfortable.It now has 220ltr esky and 100 ltr storage come esky plus 100 ltr live bait tank come esky as well.This is just a very quick rundown on what i did and how you can change your cluttered deck into a deck where there is now plenty of room.cheers justin.

[Jarrah Jack]

The boats looking good Deckie, didn't you have a thread on it somewhere?

[cormorant]

Good boxes and look great when you can make exactly what you need.

I know I am anal and come from a moored boats background but any fitting that is bringing water into or out of a boat would be better double clamped and any hoses would be better to be uv , fuel proof quality like your inlet not that crap flexible stuff on the outlet. I hate the low quality black stuff with a passion as no one ever looks to see if it is OK, clamps cut it . If it is smooth bore propper sullage black hose ignore my comments. Cheap clamps are another disaster waiting to happen as they have sharp edges and not quality stainless etc. . . At least with the other type of hose you can see sun damage and squeeze it to check it is still flexible - much better long term and can't be as easily kinked.

[EdBerg]

Just a quick note to remind you that the bigger the tanks the more weight you are carrying, add approx 1kg/lt seawater ( it is actully a lilttle it heavier but it's good enough as a rough calc.) plus the weight of the tanks to hold it in, so 2 x 70lt is approx 140kg and the 2 tanks may be about 50kgs so you may end up with just under 200kg extra in the boat, also consider the shape and size as when you are travelling or going through waves as the boats action will cause the water to slosh backwards and forwards and the water may even slosh out of the tank, which also means you will need to put some sort of seal on the lids to keep the water in.

[deckie]

cheers guys, hey Feral you do great work mate. Thats such a great setup with big arse storage and tanks. Looks great as well as practical. This is a scaled down version and no need for a big tank or a lot of extra storage tho cant ever have enough cubby holes to stuff things out of the way. Tis why i was hoping this little tank could double as a storage box/seat when not used for fishing.
Cormorant..it doesnt read like you;re the anal type, just sensible after seeing worst case scenario's. Good reminder for everyone and a bit of common sense prevail.
Jack...after doing about 90% i got a bit distracted and ended up nearly a year since doing anything much on it. Should have it on the water for this summer though, a few threads around showing a cpl of bits and pieces of the refit and additions, but will do a proper one at some point. Had it since new and designing everything for solo trips or two at most. Mates with everything from 12ft to 38ft rigs and i'm out there often...but the best boat is the one that gets used the most and is easy. I need this rig easy to manage/light and ready to go.Trying to make the ultimate bay scooter thats light and easy to handle by myself so i can just head off at a moments notice for a turn of the tide. Just back the car up and go. Had the hull from new so i know every little irk and quirk with performance...just a challenge with weight distribution to change a boat designed for a lighter 2 stk to a slightly heavier 4 stk...as soon as these new lightweight 60's and 70's started coming out a few yrs ago it was finally possible...will be an F70A going on.
Edberg you've addressed one of the big big issues i;ve tried to get right from the start. Weight distribution. This cuddy has carried big and little tanks before both down back and upfront and never liked the extra weight down back, BUT the last tank (just a sizeable converted chlorine container) when placed fwd between bunks made it ride like a dream. Trying to allow for added weight of a 4stk. Like many rigs adding the weight of one person to the cabin is a huge help except maybe in any decent following sea. Tis why i'm thinking of getting this right up snug just fwd of helm and dead centre. Will be maybe a 60lt tank but carry only 40-50 ltr water . I need some size for garies and slimeys but nothing thats gonna be a pain. Inside i;ll be adding a lip facing back down to help stop the slop and hatch seal type top under seat. You;re spot on about the slop factor and water movement..its not a big tank and being lengthwise up the middle up forward in an oval shape rather than square if i can...less water movement sideways and should actually improve performance, holeshot, fuel economy etc without changing ride much. If it does it goes. Rather build it so its easy to go front or back and easy to anchor solid. If i can get the overflow height right i can easily drain out the anchor well fitting if make it bigger, but it might even just be a recirc tank with no direct in/out feed. Knowing the rig well and having had a similar weight tank fwd before i know the added 50-60kg total in centre just in front of helm only improves things a little. Lid will be recessed as well as hatch seal foam.
Mainly inshore work this time. Its done its share of offshore fishing and dont really need a rig for that...just need a Hawkesbury/Cowan scooter coz i'm not happy unless i'm on that stretch of water.

Thinking i really am best to make up a light frame the exact dimensions to fit snug, and glass in and out then flowcoat. Rather than the mould i assumed would be better/easier. Really want an oval chopped sqaure at both ends. Dont know. Hmmm.

[Jarrah Jack]

Jack...after doing about 90% i got a bit distracted and ended up nearly a year since doing anything much on it. .

Something to do with your avatar perhaps? :o

[deckie]

Nahhh Jack..women are only a distraction when they become ex wives. Was a time i thought different 8-). BTW..if u need an ex wife yell out, anyone else for that matter. Still got two i'd like to see married off to good homes. Both still in excellent condition, only slightly gravity effected and not tooo many miles on the clock. Any high maintenance issues and whats under the hood can be covered over a single flathead drift. Dont delay ;D I'll change that avatar to something better. Nahhh, work is always the distraction these days.

[cormorant]

These probably aren't what you are after but.....

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/blacktown/boats-jet-skis/live-bait-tank/359098452

Seapower the boat 2nd hand place had a plastic moulded tub one the other day you could put a folding seat over
Seapower boat locker
16/2 Apollo Street Sydney NSW 2102
(02) 9979 8278

[deckie]

Hey tx for getting back again cormorant. Yeah not really what i was after but cheers. Looked at the ones u showed earlier and some good stuff. Still not decided yet and laying the deck covering right now so can get heights and mount points right for any tank i whack in. Still leaning toward making it to exact dimensions to make it fit exact and secure when it cuts up ruff. Looking at ways of anchoring it which i pretty much know now so not far from doing something about the tank itself and deciding on water in/out. Still contemplating increasing size of the anchor well drain skin fitting and experimenting...by draining out the front it might also stop me wating to take a piss every few minutes from the sound of running overflow out over the back ;D (yes i know i could lengthen the o/flow hose but that would be smart and i aint ;))

Really like the idea of it being a seat as well as storage when not needed....this isnt a big boat and will double up uses for anything i can. An oval shape or chopped oval shape definitely looks the most space saving and practical solution.

Here are some of the candidates i saw in my interweb wanderings. Some good stuff. The Dynaplas one (last pic) thats about 50L you put up earlier, is probably the hot favorite off the rack one available locally that might fit well. If only we got the kind of stuff they make in the states.
tx
steve
8129181288812928128681290812878128981285http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/misc/pencil.png

[deckie]

tx fir the help guys.
After measuring a few times i chose a ready made job that fitted nicely. Last one in the previous pics, got it off ebay for about $150 which i was happy with...v v solid tank. Put a comfy lid on it and a keep alive recirc aerator pump that can be put inside and removed at will. Worked out well coz fits all three spots just right, seat, storage and livey tank in one. Might plumb it into the transom pump and pickup but at this point not fussed.
Got ideas for securing it in all spots but that'll need to wait. heading to Darwin for a week to thaw out...sick of the cold.
Steve.

[cormorant]

A bargain worth waiting for and a cheap short ratchet strap and a couple of eyelets or holes and it will be tied into all three spots and seconds to remove.


Out of interest what was your number on the floor or who did ya clear through? Knew rambo, Kit, Brad all teh MAC boys and a whole bunch of the bridge players etc for years and a very small world.

[deckie]

Yeah they aint cheap out of the factory and saw one on ebay they described as a "factory second" but i cant figure out why..good tank just the right size. I;ve already fitted a cpl of hooks to the sides and will take 6mm shock cord down to bunk sides for when its upfront. Fits perfect under the seat and also when collapsed...dont use the seats much and like them out of the way.

Ahhhhh good ole rambo. I wont say my number on the floor coz its a giveaway to I.D. but i remember Johnny M's number very well, 63. Before then i had an open line to the bill pit on my desk and i could hear him clear as a bell thru it. Unmisakeable voice. Got along very well with him unlike many..never a mate tho. Interesting guy, hellova personailty and bit of a legend of the floor. He'd take on some massive volumes. We both cleared thru McIntosh with their poofy red mesh jackets till they went west. He'd probably know who i am based on that.

Yeah tis a v small world matey.