Fisher 660 maxi owner question please

[johncar]

Sorry to hassle you again Fisher owners, but I am considering lowering my engine by one hole and would just appreciate any feedback on how others have the engine fitted and what is the result.
Mine is a Fisher 660 Maxi design with the flat planing plank at the bottom of keel. It has a Suzuki DF250 on the back with a 16" x 20" three blade prop.

My engine currently sits when at approx half trim and cav plate set parallel to the keel, it is about 35 - 40mm above the boats keel plate. It runs quite well like that except I can't really trim any higher than the cav plate parallel to keel while out at sea and running into or with the swells and waves I tend to get what sounds a little ventilation through each wave. I tuck the engine in a little and fixes it but in a following sea I would like to get some more trim out to get the bow up a little more just for added safety.

So in a nutshell, as it is now I can only trim the engine out barely over half the trim range before it starts to get some ventilation on smooth water and in rough water I am definitely limited to half trim at best.

Not overly difficult for me to lower it and if not happy put it back but it is a bit of a pain not having slotted lower holes on these engines and having to remove the sealed rear inspection hatch to access the lower engine mount bolts. So it would be helpful to know how others are setup before I go to the trouble.
Can't really view the cav plate either on this boat while at speed due to the spray coming off the keel making it difficult.

Thanks in advance.

[robothefisho]

Could always get a little bit of cupping added to the blade tips. Might loose 100rpm though, if that.

[stue2]

Quick question JC. Can you see the cav plate at the back of the motor. That is the wide bit over the prop? This is the only place you can see my cav plates for splash and they sit right level with the water.

Cheers

[johncar]

Could always get a little bit of cupping added to the blade tips. Might loose 100rpm though, if that.

Thanks robo, yes I have done that and it did help.

[johncar]

Quick question JC. Can you see the cav plate at the back of the motor. That is the wide bit over the prop? This is the only place you can see my cav plates for splash and they sit right level with the water.

Cheers

Yes stue2, although there is a fair amount of spray over the cav plate, (the plate directly over the prop) I can't actually see it clearly enough but guaging the leg height out of the water and what I can see, i would say the the cav plate is above or close to the solid water surface and everything adds up to it being possibly a little high.
I was just interested what other owners experience is, before I bother changing it.

[rocklobster]

Have you tried a four blade prop?

[stue2]

Hi JC. I think I would be playing with props first. A bit of cupping is what was suggested to me if I got ventilation after raising the motors.

Cheers

[johncar]

Hi JC. I think I would be playing with props first. A bit of cupping is what was suggested to me if I got ventilation after raising the motors.

Cheers

Thanks rocklobster, stue2, yeah I have to come clean, I have been trying different props and although the 3 blade that was on the boat was performing quite well I just thought I would try and see if I could squeeze a little more performance and econonomy out of it. I have tried a couple of 4 bladers and the second one has had extra cupping done to it and I do like that prop best so far. It seems to be giving me a little better economy and a little smoother and engine seems quieter perhaps because it is spinning it a little easier than the bigger diam 3 blade.
Problem being with all the props I ran I get some ventilation creeping in at anything much above half trim. The first 4 blade was no good, just worse all round. it was replaced with a less pitch one with extra cupping and it runs nicely other than the symptoms that is possibly running a bit shallow. I believe that 4 blades can give a bit more lift so that is possibly why it starts to ventilate before the 3 blade but not by a lot.
I would just like to get a bit more trim range and was wondering what others are getting.

[stue2]

worst part about doing all the test is they will mst likely be different when you drop the motor a hole. But its not hard to drop the motor and there is not much better than a well tuned boat motor prop on the pride and joy. Nothing worse if they dont work well. It nice just to drive and not have to worry about what you can and cant do.

Mine goes well but I recon there is more to get but not much.

cheers, Stu

[rocklobster]

I am not familiar with suzukis as i have only ever owned Yammys. I originally was running a three blade prop on my latest engine and had a reasonable idea because of the set up on the last engine . After a few swaps , I am now running a solas hr titan 14and a half x 15 inch pitch and it has noticeably raised the rear of the boat out of the water several inches ,going by photos of before and after . Revs are up and motor sounds good . I have had Michigan propellers on the past and they were also great in the 3 blade option , As i said i am not familiar with the suzukis knowing they run a larger diameter blade . It is unusual when a well known manufacture sets up a new boat /motor combination at the wrong height . After building so many boats ,most know exactly what suits best .Props are an individual thing and change with owners different requirements Try the exchange with solas and see if there is a hr titan that suits . It is an impressive prop . Make sure your revs hit the required 6100 ? This is where i would start before dropping the motor.

[johncar]

Yeah Stu I just know when it is all happy and it is nearly there, I will have to set up some sort of lifting beam in the shed so I can do it at home. Not that much drama to do it and try it at the end of the day.
That planing plank tends to make it harder to work out the best static engine height, meaning that if it had a regular keel it would be lower and the cav plate would be sitting about 80mm above the keel, so it just changes the rules a little. So the suck it and see method may be the best.

[johncar]

I am not familiar with suzukis as i have only ever owned Yammys. I originally was running a three blade prop on my latest engine and had a reasonable idea because of the set up on the last engine . After a few swaps , I am now running a solas hr titan 14and a half x 15 inch pitch and it has noticeably raised the rear of the boat out of the water several inches ,going by photos of before and after . Revs are up and motor sounds good . I have had Michigan propellers on the past and they were also great in the 3 blade option , As i said i am not familiar with the suzukis knowing they run a larger diameter blade . It is unusual when a well known manufacture sets up a new boat /motor combination at the wrong height . After building so many boats ,most know exactly what suits best .Props are an individual thing and change with owners different requirements Try the exchange with solas and see if there is a hr titan that suits . It is an impressive prop . Make sure your revs hit the required 6100 ? This is where i would start before dropping the motor.

Thanks, I had a 14 1/2" x 15", 4 blade Solas with a 150 Yammie on my last boat, I think it was HR Titan, it was perfect. That is the sort of performance I am trying to get now.
I don't know what options there are for the Suzi but i have left that up to the guys at Solas to recommend the best style of prop for me and this one does seem good other than the symptoms of the engine height. As i said in the previous post, it isn't that much drama just to drop it down one hole and see what happens. It's only 20mm, I think it will be good.

[stue2]

Yeah Stu I just know when it is all happy and it is nearly there, I will have to set up some sort of lifting beam in the shed so I can do it at home. Not that much drama to do it and try it at the end of the day.
That planing plank tends to make it harder to work out the best static engine height, meaning that if it had a regular keel it would be lower and the cav plate would be sitting about 80mm above the keel, so it just changes the rules a little. So the suck it and see method may be the best.

Good luck JC. I messed around with my old boat a fair bit and nailed it in the end. Its a good feeling

cheers

[Redhunter]

Hi jhoncar i run a 6.2 maxi fisher with a 175 suzuk i just had a quick look at me engine for ya and it is bolted in the second hole from the top, she runs sweet and i do not get any cavatation,even when i go past half trim i no darry use to fit these motors up and he nos his shit,just be careful with ya hights because it can stuff ya transducer readings up and that is the most inportant part of ya fishing.
steve

[DAVE_S]

John
I,am running a 16 x20 on my 6.8 with a 225 zuk and have never had it trimed out more then just over a 1/4 . My zuk mechanic said i should get it cupped and the boat should preform heaps better , a mate had his cupped and he said he could not notice any difference . My motor is set at the same height as yours, so i would be keen to learn what works best .

Next time i,am out i will trim it out as you have done and see what happens .

[Smithy]

Are you getting your WOT revs of 6000-6200?

[Chimo]

You will know you have your motor at the correct / sweet spot when the cav plate is just above the water surface and when trimmed out you could get your fingers between the water surface and the bottom of the cav plate (IF YOUR ARM WAS LONG ENOUGH AND YOUR WEREN'T WORRIED ABOUT THE TIPS OF YOUR FINGERS).

When it all seems spot on with testing in fresh water then try it in salt. I did this years ago and had to drop the motor one hole because in the sea and with the boats greater bouyancy the prop was just that little bit too high. Its a fine line but switching from fresh to salt really did prove the set up for me. Of course the prop has to reach the right revs as per the motor specs but unless the motor height is where it should be lifes is just too hard. IMHO.

Cheers
Chimo

[gofishin]

….Problem being with all the props I ran I get some ventilation creeping in at anything much above half trim. The first 4 blade was no good … Was this a 15 ¼ x 18 by chance JC?

….I believe that 4 blades can give a bit more lift so that is possibly why it starts to ventilate before the 3 blade but not by a lot... Yes and no JC.

4 blades have been very popular for offshore fishing boats in the US for many many years now, especially on their twin rigs with heavy bums. When setting up the boats the mechanics automatically install the donks one hole higher if 4 blades are being used – because they generally accommodate greater mounting heights, and suffer less from ventilation.

However, ‘not all props are created equal’, and probably will not behave the same in comparison on different rigs. Just because you get the Rec. WOT from a particular prop means nothing! Of course it is important, and you want it to get there, but ‘said prop’ can be a ‘dog’ around the mid range if the prop design doesn’t ideally suit the midrange torque curve of the motor, and, the boat load/speed (friction) curve.

Although they both work/act together, pitch is more relevant at WOT, diam is more relevant at cruise/mid range. Have too much of one or the other (or vice versa), and it don’t work so good.

I’m no prop expert, but have made it a bit of a hobby over the past 3 ½ years trying to find that ‘holy grail’ prop for my combination of boat & motor. Some might say I have OC'P'D (O.C. ‘Propeller’ D.) ;D, but I’m just trying to get the absolute best out of my rig. I have borrowed, swapped, bought and sold many props to try on my boat, as well as a few of my mates’ boats.

You are going down the right path of seeking out owners of similar boats, because what works/doesn’t work on the boats I (or anyone else) have messed around with may be the opposite on yours! Even if the boat is the same, different motors have different gear ratios, lower leg design & gear case diam etc etc

Here are the props (that I can remember anyway!) that I have tried on my Outsider 685 + Yam F250A, 2nd hole, +29mm above plank from memory. My motor is a tad low for my liking, just have not got round to raising it. I will be…soon…then trialling a few props ‘again’ to test my theories.

3 bld – Yam SWS2 15 ¼ x 19T, Yam SW4 ½ x 19M, Mirage Plus 15 ¼ x 19, maybe 1 other
4 bld – SOLAS; 14 1/8 x 18 HR Titan, 14 ¼ x 17 Torqumaster, 15 ¼ x 18 Overdrive
4 bld – Powertech; 15 x 17 ELE,
4 bld – Merc; 14 ½ x 17 Offshore (short prop), REV 4 (all 14 5/8 diam); 17 and 19 pitches

I have also tried most of these props on similar boats (plus some smaller), plus other props the owners had (OFS4 15 ¼ x 16 on a similar boat to mine for one). Every 4 blde bar one transformed these boats in comparison to the 3 bldes. The 15 ¼ SOLAS reached 6000 but was a dog in the mid range on my boat (too much blade area).

They (4 blds) all suffered less from ventilation, except the ELE, which was the worst on my boat. However, this same prop on a mates 625, with L4200 Verado mounted at ~+45mm (i.e. ~16mm higher) from memory, stuck like u-know-what – whether tight turns or plenty of trim. Amazing! Both the small SOLAS 4blds work well (plus on 625’s) but the 14 ¼ is better ‘all-round’ for me (the 14 1/8 drops economy significantly when loaded heavily, unlike the 14 1/4).


….I would just like to get a bit more trim range and was wondering what others are getting. The best prop(s) for ‘trim out’ I have found are the REV 4’s. The 17 I could get to ~8 bars trim, the 19 to 6/7 bars before they start to let go. The 17 provided slightly less transom lift than the 19, and the 19 is slightly more in pitch than the 2” difference suggests (I think). They have a different design to a ‘normal’ 4 bld, with a blade design (rake/skew etc) more like a ‘long’ 3 blde really.



…That planing plank tends to make it harder to work out the best static engine height, meaning that if it had a regular keel it would be lower and the cav plate would be sitting about 80mm above the keel, so it just changes the rules a little. So the suck it and see method may be the best. Do you have any pics of your plank JC? Plus showing height of A/V plate above plank when trimmed parallel?

From memory the suzy’s have a lower gear ratio and can spin larger props (than my Yammy), plus your boat will be lighter and behave differently – so maybe none of my info will help! However, if I were you I would test a few more props before lowering your donk, as you may find one that really works.
Cheers
Brendon

[Skusto]

hey johncar i just use a piece of timber under skeg wind jockey wheel up to lift motor after taking out and loosing blots or wind down to lower.

[johncar]

Are you getting your WOT revs of 6000-6200?
Yes Smithy, WOT rpm is good, either 3 or 4 blade props reach 6000 + RPM. 4 blade is highest at about 6100RPM

[johncar]

Hi jhoncar i run a 6.2 maxi fisher with a 175 suzuk i just had a quick look at me engine for ya and it is bolted in the second hole from the top, she runs sweet and i do not get any cavatation,even when i go past half trim i no darry use to fit these motors up and he nos his shit,just be careful with ya hights because it can stuff ya transducer readings up and that is the most inportant part of ya fishing.
steve
Hi Steve, Thanks, I was hoping to get that sort of feedback. Mine is on the centre hole so dropping it one will be same as you then second from the top hole. Looking like the way to go.

[johncar]

John
I,am running a 16 x20 on my 6.8 with a 225 zuk and have never had it trimed out more then just over a 1/4 . My zuk mechanic said i should get it cupped and the boat should preform heaps better , a mate had his cupped and he said he could not notice any difference . My motor is set at the same height as yours, so i would be keen to learn what works best .

Next time i,am out i will trim it out as you have done and see what happens .

Thanks Dave_S, I am surprised that you have never trimmed out more than 1/4, but I guess it depends on your boats design and how you use it. I just know that if I get out there in a big following sea I want all the trim out I can get, but not at the cost of normal running either. Just trying to get the balance as good as possible. i will let you know how I go.

[johncar]

hey johncar i just use a piece of timber under skeg wind jockey wheel up to lift motor after taking out and loosing blots or wind down to lower.
Have done that in the past with OMC and Yammie motors with the slotted lower holes but my Suzi has non slotted holes so the engine has to come right off and therefore will need support from above, but I am working on that ATM putting a lifting beam in the shed roof, I am sure it will always be handy.

[johncar]

OK yesterday, had the engine serviced and decided to bite the bullet and lower the engine by one hole (approx 20mm)
On advice from my service tech, I also agreed and decided to cut off and remove the extension of the planing plank come transducer mounting plate, for anyone not familiar with these, they are a flat plate welded on behind the central keel area planing surface to take a through hull style transducer. I am not using it for that purpose and because there is some chance of it interfering with water flow to the prop, it is now gone. There was a slight step down where it was welded also which was probably a mistake when originally fitted. 1st photo shows it gone, but still there in the 2nd photo down.

Pic below of engine height after I dropped it down. String line on planing plank/keel which looks better to me but the proof will be in the water tests which hope to be doing today or tomorrow.

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/johncar/Fisher%20660/engineheightmod1.jpg

Just a couple of pics rigging up a lifting beam in the shed and slinging the engine. I put the turn buckle in the third sling to give some fine adjustment if the engine tilted at all. Doing it on my own so I didn't want to have to wrestle with it during any time in the process. Happy to say it went floorlessly and lifted off dead true and therefore slid straight back on. Took the weight of the engine on the hoist, being just a small linesmans type, then did any fine adjustments up and down with the trailers jockey wheel and just pushed the trailer forward and back, all pretty easy but still taking care not to make any mistakes.

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/johncar/Fisher%20660/engineheightmod3.jpg

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/johncar/Fisher%20660/DSC01648reduced.jpg

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/johncar/Fisher%20660/DSC01649reduced.jpg

[johncar]

So I did use that keel trannie plate for my engine support bracket and quickly had to knock up an alternative solution last night, pics below should work alright. used some of the plate I cut off, welded a couple of bits of scrap allly rod and some hose to protect the hard surfaces.

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/johncar/Fisher%20660/enginesupport1reduced.jpg

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt187/johncar/Fisher%20660/enginesupport2reduced.jpg

[Redhunter]

Should be spot on now with that 20mm drop . Just remember to keep ya trim tabs up and ya motor just over half trim in a big following sea.


steve

[DAVE_S]

John
Where you have the engine now is where mine is . ( sitting on top of the ballast tube )

[gofishin]

Well done John! Did you happen to take a measurement up from the stringline after you lowered it?

...There was a slight step down where it was welded....I guess that may have contributed to your issues too!
Cheers
Brendon

[johncar]

QUOTE=gofishin;1384227]Well done John! Did you happen to take a measurement up from the stringline after you lowered it?
[/QUOTE]

That would have been smart but for some reason no I didn't, think I was getting tired towards the end of the day. I think it would be around 15mm at the front of the leg.

I took it for a good run today and did lots of backward and forth terrorising everyone in the Pumicestone Passage, but got some figures with both props and different trim.
There was actually negligable difference between the 3 blade and 4 blade props over the whole rev range but at 3600RPM the 4 blade seemed very nice and engine sounded happy.
With the lowering of the engine, it doesn't seem to have reduced WOT or any performance but has definitely increased my trim range now allowing me to trim out to at least 3/4 before any hint of ventilation. Very happy about that..
With the transducer plate removed, I don't think it made any difference with just as much turbulance created by the planing plank which does seem to get cleaner the faster I go. Being on my own I wasn't too keen to go back there too much in case something went wrong, particularly reluctant at WOT, made sure I was aiming at some mangroves before leaving the helm and hanging on rather tightly trying not to loose my glasses. The joy of getting old lol..

80245

[gofishin]

So what is full trim out on a zuke John, 8 or 10 bars I assume? I guess if it is better you've got to be happy with that :). Does that mean you were running around at -ve trim before to prevent ventilation (if you can get 3/4 now)? Interesting that you didn't drop any revs too!

PS. The first entry in the 3bld stats has a typo in the figures I think; 22.9 L/h @10kn = 2.29 L/nm.
Cheers

[johncar]

Yeah some of the figures could be a bit off, I was on my own, boats everywhere zooming around, not a good choice, Bribie Passage on a nice Saturday.
Bouncing around at times trying to write legibly. I just read it off the GPS and at 3000RPM everything was less stable with figures fluctuating and by the time I would write one figure down it would change, opps look out for that sailing boat!. Yes there was a sailing regatta going on in the passage as well just to make it harder, jet ski's being their usual menace going all directions. So that was the first one where it was a bit busy and I got further up the passage and away from all the traffic for most of it.
All readings were just taken off the GPS as I was travelling and I haven't done the maths on any of them, so there may be some variations between reading and writing figures down. I would do it differently next time.
I know the speed was just under 10KN being minimum planing speed, so my guess is the fuel flow jumped around by the time I read it. 2.29L/NM would be most likely. I edited the table.

A great exercise none the less as it is very clear that the engine with either prop is most effecient between 3500 - 4000RPM and 3600 about the best.
I glanced down at WOT consumption at about 2L/NM which didn't seem too bad really and no worse than doing 3000RPM consumption wise but 40 + knots is not relaxing lol.

Previous engine height only allowed a trim range to a little above half way on the standard analogue guage with the 3 blade and a little less with the 4 blade, about half way. The Cav plate is parallel to the ground at slightly above half way on the guage so I am not sure how they should be calaibrated but I would think cav plate parallel should be about the centre mark on the guage.

Yesterdays run with the engine lowered 20mm allowed me to trim out to the highest upper mark on the guage, about 1.5 divisons more, before I could detect any ventilation which is a good amount of trim I didn't have before, not that it has a drastic effect on the boats attitude as it seems to change very little from trim in to trim out but there is enough to know that it will give me that bit of bow lift in a bigger following sea when I need it.
It certainly hasn't effected the WOT range by lowering the engine as it reached 6000 easily with both props and both directions and at one stage was actually hitting 6200RPM at 42.8Kn when I let it wind out a little further.

Anyhow my next run offshore will be the true test and to be honest, in this case and at this stage I can't see a significant advantage with this 4 blade over the Suzuki 3 blade even though 4bl does have a nice sweet spot around the 3600RPM, it's not really enough to warrant the expense. I will talk to Solas though regarding a 4 blade with a bit more surface area, because I think that's what it needs rather than more pitch or cupping alone. The engine feels like it could take a little more load and getting a couple more knots out of that 3600 - 3800 RPM range should give a fuel saving and keep it around the 1.2L/NM, but for what it is it's not bad anyway, just a bit of fun trying.

[Jeff72]

Hi John, i have been meaning to give to a call to give you an update on my progress with the origin evo7700. Thanks also for your help. There's no doubt about your attention to detail! This thread has been great reading. I had very similar issues with the cruise craft when i had it (lack of prop bite in a following sea). Whilst i never got around to changing props, i always suspected there may have also been boat balance contributing to the problem. I had a 100l water tank in the hatch between driver/passenger and if anything at rest i never considered the boat to be stern heavy. You certainly have a fair bit of superstructure fore in the fisher so don't discount this as a possible factor in all of this. If anyone can sort it you will

Jeff E

[johncar]

yeah Hi Jeff, just left a post in the Origin evo thread and here you are.
I am pretty happy with the boats offshore performance and it hasn't put a foot wrong even in a bit 3 odd meter stuff a few weeks back with 25kn of wind. She just poked along nice and steady.
I just thought that it may be handy to have a bit more trim range for going downhill as it has only been able to trim out to about mid way before some ventilation. lowering the engine one hole has sorted that out nicely with no apparent significant changes to performance figures. It feels like it could still handle a slightly larger prop as it flies up to 6000+ rpm with either the 3BL 16 x 20 or 4BL 15 1/4 x 20, but that is good for running offshore as it feels like it's doing it easy.
yeah I have a bit of weight up forward which has it's advantages but time at sea and differing conditions will tell, not that I can do a lot about it, but I can always add weight to the stern easy enough.
Anyway it must be getting the intersting stages now with your OE750, can't wait to see it, I will be envious as hell though..

[Jeff72]

The 250 zuk has a rev range from 5500 to 6100 so you are right in at the top end but definitely in there nicely. I assume the 6000 is close to normal operating weight? If its going to be heavier, fuel, water family its probably bang on. Could always run two props? Fishing 1 or 2 up and full cruise weight (current prop)? If you don't need to that's 700+ dollars on other goodies!

[johncar]

The 250 zuk has a rev range from 5500 to 6100 so you are right in at the top end but definitely in there nicely. I assume the 6000 is close to normal operating weight? If its going to be heavier, fuel, water family its probably bang on. Could always run two props? Fishing 1 or 2 up and full cruise weight (current prop)? If you don't need to that's 700+ dollars on other goodies!

Lol better not take the family out at 6000, might be the last time they go but you never know. You are probably right about the loading as those tests were done with moderate fuel and water but just me on board so there could easily be another 200 - 300KG on board with people and their stuff plus extra fuel and water.
I am already really committed to the second prop so I am just hoping that Solas may help me out a little more and supply something with a little longer legs that I can use in light trim days, will give them a call later in the week.