What size trigger wires for winch solenoid - Maxwell HRC 6

[ozscott]

Hi all HRC 6 Maxwell unboxed today. Looks fantastic. It has a reversing solenoid and a switch. The solenoid goes up near the winch and is triggered by a dash switch. Min wire diameter is 6mm from batt and to winch but there is no indication of the up and down trigger wire size...they are spade terminals v pole terminals on the solenoid. What wire is suitable, just 2mm? Cheers

[Fed]

2 mm CSA should be fine but 2mm DIA might be a bit light.

Solenoids usually have a very high inrush current but after the iron core circuit closes the current drops to SFA.

Be aware if anything stops the magnetic circuit closing then the coil can burn out right before your eyes also overloading the control wiring.

Are the control (trigger) wires fused?

[peterbo3]

4mm will provide some fudge factor depending on the length of the wiring run. What does the wiring diagram/specs show as the solenoid amp draw? The 6mm seems a tad light for a winch. 6mm will handle about 50 amps, what is the max draw for the winch. If it is not shown, there will normally be a breaker/fuse size shown.

[ozscott]

Thanks guys. Max draw is 50 amp. I have heavier wire than 6mm on there now for the SouthPacific which is a much smaller winch but no solenoid. There is a circuit breaker to be installed near the battery and that's it. Cheers

[ozscott]

I just saw that cable length is from the battery to winch and back so that exceeds the 10m category which is 6.5mm squared wire and takes it up to the 10.5 or AWG 9. It does not give any specific size for the trigger wires. Cheers

[ozscott]

Another question... The diagram shows a spade terminal earthing back to the negative main wire from the battery. This is shown as a lighter wire than the battery wire. Can I just run this wire and solder it into the main negative battery wire going to the negative side in of the solenoid? Can't see why not. Cheers

[Fed]

I'm looking at the website & it shows a 3A circuit breaker for the control circuit.
79475

Is this what you're looking at?

[finga]

I'd be looking very closely to the size of the wire from the battery to the winch.
Even 10mm sounds very light for 50A at 5m route length especially if the wire is in any enclosure or bundled with other wires. Actually it sounds light if it was run in free air to me.
How far is it from your battery to the circuit breaker to the relay to the winch?
How is the wire run?? ie enclosed in a side pocket or cabinet or run along a shelf or run in the open, any other things with the wire?
All these factors affect how the conductor cools thusly altering the current carrying capacity of the conductor.

The wire can get to the 50A very quickly if the winch loads up and it does not take long for wire to heat up.

Cheers Scott
PS: I'd be going the 2.5mm cross sectional area or 4mm automotive for the trigger wires unless your boat is HUGE.
Better to be safe then sorry. Those relays are fairly expensive to blow up because of $5-10 worth of wire.

[Fed]

HaHa I found it again. Alt+253 = ²

Finga the website gives the power cable sizes subject the length and the circuit diagram calls for a 3Amp breaker on the control circuit so 2.5mm² would even be an overkill.
I only posted that to use the little ² sign. :)

[ozscott]

Thanks Gents - the circuit breaker provided is 50 amp. The wires will run up under the gunwales from the battery to the solenoid near the winch. It will run on top of the main loom and will have space above it, a few inches, but not below. So I would be better going heavier again than 10.5mm squared section...up another level or two. They recommend 10.5 mm squared, but I suspect the manufacturer wants to go with the easiest set up that will just get there. Rated output is 400W, so amps running would normally not exceed about 35, but presumably start up current would be higher. The wires on the winch motor are only about 3mm accross (diameter) but I dont want voltage drop from the battery which is about 6m from the solenoid.

Cheers

[Fed]

The 10mm² will be fine mate.
79476

[finga]

This may be of use
http://www.rpc.com.au/pdf/efn133.pdf
You'll have to gauge yourself the ability of the cable to cool down if the 50A is applied.

Yeah, the 2.5mm may be overkill for the control circuit but when you consider that bigger wires are less prone to breakage from vibration and also less prone to failure due to corrosion or verdigris.
And it's easier to get proper sized terminations for the 2.5mm (4mm automotive) wire.

I wouldn't solder the negative control wire to the main negative cable from the battery.
Just use a ring terminal onto the main negative stud at the relay.

Cheers Scott
I can't get the alt+253 to work :(

[ozscott]

Thanks Finga - mate why dont they earth these solenoids internally? It seem odd to bring a wire out and then back, in effect, another external terminal...

Cheers and thanks again for your help Scott.

[ozscott]

Thanks Fed :)

[Fed]

Hold your Alt key down and hit 253 on the number pad. ²
Yeah 2.5mm² purely for mechanical strength.
Don't forget the 3 Amp circuit breaker ozscott.

[finga]

They don't link the negative internally because of the chance differing installation situations like 24v winch voltage with 12v control circuit or dedicated winch batteries and stuff like that.

I don't like the use of the e word (earth) for DC installations and especially for DC in boats. There's the negative and positive wire. ;)

[ozscott]

Thanks fellas. I just measured the cross sectional width of the existing run from the battery to the current winch - 5mm...so 10.2 area which is enough according to Maxwell, but I suppose going another 2mm up in diameter would be prudent.

Cheers

PS. Finga - earth versus negative noted :)

[ozscott]

Fed - mate the 3 amp didnt come in the pack - I only have the helm switch and not foot switches. As I read that diagram the 3 amp breaker is for the foot switches?

Cheers

[Jarrah Jack]

400 watts isn't a big motor. Drum winches start at 600. They must need the extra power because of the weight of the drum and rope and bigger gearing when the drum is full. HH565 aka Spiro knows all about the wiring needs for winches but it looks like you guys are getting it sorted. You changing your rope as well Oz. Anchoring in 1000ft ain't easy.

[ozscott]

Just spoke to a very helpful fella at Maxwell (I like their support). He says 10.2 area wire is minimum and those breakers are designed to break at over their stated rating to allow the winch to bog down to try to move the anchor before losing power....he reckons that I should go up to the next one in their book which is 16mm squared. He reckons the trigger wires can just be the usual twin core - they only draw 3 amp, so my 4mm square cable will kill that part of it...so off to get some new wire.

Cheers

[ozscott]

Thanks Jarrah - no same rope at the moment mate - 12mm 3 strand nylon. Might soak it in fabric softener to treat the new windlass to a head start though.

Cheers

[ozscott]

EDIT - I have 5mm diameter roughly measured, so that is 19mm squared...so I have the right wire (ie it is at least 16)....although that it way under the table recommendations that Finga provided.

Cheers

PS. This is interesting. The Muir 600 operators manual recommends 25mm squared or 8mm dia when running in a boat up to 7m in length...thats confusing because I thought 25mm squared equated to about 6mm diameter not the 8 (unless 8 includes insulation)-)

[finga]

And your 2 core won't do for the control wiring. You need 3 conductors don't you??
Well you will if you pick up the positive for the control wiring at the same place as the negative (ie at the relay).
2x2 core will do and give you a spare conductor

It's best to pick-up both negative and positive at the same place to save confusion and head scratching later when something doesn't work.

[ozscott]

Rang whitworths -they have 2b&s which is about 11mm diameter including insulation and is common for winch runs they reckon - I will get some of that to be on the safe side.

Cheers

[ozscott]

Thanks Finga - mate as i read the diagram the switch's third terminal is for the foot switches. Cheers

[ozscott]

The studs on the solenoid are only 5mm...I think the min cable lug for 2 b&s wire is 8mm...- the nuts would need to be tight!!

[Fed]

The 3 Amp breaker is to protect all the control wiring so you will have to buy one, notice the the one they recommend but you could use any breaker say under 10 Amps because your control wiring will be rated higher than that.

You need to get wire diameter out of your head and only talk in cross sectional area metric.

5mm diameter solid core copper is almost 20mm² cross sectional area.

To work out stranded cable if it's not marked you need to use a micrometer to measure 1 strand the pi x R² then multiply by the number of strands or cheat & use the internet.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-cross-section.htm

At 12 metres in total you're on the low end of the recommended 10.5mm² so 10mm² cable for the heaps and 2.5mm² will be heaps for the control circuit.

[Fed]

My BIAS catalogue lists 2 B&S (Battery & Starter HaHaha) at 390 Amps.

Settle down & buy some 10mm² cable.

[ozscott]

Thanks mate - the cable that I put in years ago for the old winch is tinned 5mm diameter which as you say is 20mm squared....so I have the right wire on that guide. What was getting me concerned was the guide that showed a need for over twice that given the distance!!! Cheers mate

[ozscott]

Fed - my diagram (in the manual that came with the winch) shows that breaker, but does not give an amperage. I have just emailed Maxwell for the low down.

Cheers

[Fed]

So long as the breaker doesn't exceed the cable rating you're good to go.

[Fed]

What was getting me concerned was the guide that showed a need for over twice that given the distance!!!
The guide said to use 10.5mm² for total runs of 10M - 17M or 5M - 8.5M from battery to the winch.

They double the length to work out the voltage drop, the amps have to get to the winch then back to the battery.

[ozscott]

Sorry mate - the guide that Finga posted. The one from the manual shows that my existing cabling is fine.

Cheers and thanks

[Grand_Marlin]

Some good advice in there Ozscott :thumbsup:

We use 6 B&S for the 50A circuits (rated to 125A) and 2 B&S for the bigger winches.
I have 6 B&S on the Maxwell Winch in my 800 Patriot and it works fine.
4mm for your solenoid trigger wires.

Remember you can't go too big with the wire but you can go too small.
As Fed said, if the breaker is the right size to protect the wire you can't go wrong.

Cheers

Pete

[ozscott]

Thanks Pete - I dont know if you can get 6 B&S in tin coated? Do you know the best place to get the 6 B&S and crimp/solder lugs to suit?

Cheers and thanks

[Grand_Marlin]

6 B&S is hard to get in tinned.
8 B&S is readily available but not big enough.

If you have to use non tinned wire, make sure you use good quality lugs and cover them right over the shank in heatshrink.
Non tinned in the bigger sizes is less prone to corrosion than smaller sizes like 4mm.
If done this way you wont have any problem with it.

Cheers

Pete

[finga]

Oi Pete. Your talking about 4mm automotive and not 4mm cross sectional area aren't you??

And as for the as long as the breaker suits the wire then dokky dokky. Well I disagree.
A lot of control circuits stipulate circuit protection size to protect the.......well.....the complete control circuit including switch and relay.
3A may be all you can use in that circuit to protect the guts of the relay.
If any more current then the 3A you may blow the sh!ter out of the relay or switch.
I don't know and Pete would know better then I. But.......you have to protect the weakest link which may be the relay or even the switch.
Just because your using 6 b&S cable for the winch is no reason to use a 125A breaker is it??
Same theory??

Cheers Alfred :)

[Grand_Marlin]

Oi Scalbert,

Yes, 4mm automotive sizing.
4mm and 6mm is commonly measured in automotive terms in the boating fraternity.
Above that normally B&S / AWG or CSA.

Re: breakers... You need stronger glasses :idea: ;D :clown:

I said so long as the breaker suits the wire ... maybe I should have said if the wire suits the breaker.... tomaato / tomarto
In this case we were referring to the correct wire size to suit the supplied 50 amp breaker, not the trigger wire.
The point was if the 50amp breaker doesn't exceed the capacity of the wire then you will be fine.
I agree, of course you have to protect the circuits... as per manufacturers recommendations.

It was refreshing to see someone attack another fellow Ausfishers professional credibility instead of their punctuation for a change ;D

Cheers

Pete

[finga]

Well if I stuffed it up so could anyone else.....couldn't they??
;)
I was referring to the 10A protection on the control circuit. It may be not good.

Cheers then matey......and get to work ;D

[Fed]

What sort of fault are you looking to protect against in the control circuit Finga?
Don't say 'blow the sh!ter' because that's in the critical cable length basket.

[TheRealAndy]

I don't like the use of the e word (earth) for DC installations and especially for DC in boats. There's the negative and positive wire. ;)

I dont like the word negative!!! Negative is below zero. positive is above zero!

I specifically stayed away from this thread, could not handle another wire size debate :P Could not help myself in the end ::) Had to check up on you lot.:-X

[Fed]

I've been waiting for this thread to hot up, where's Googleboot?

[finga]

What sort of fault are you looking to protect against in the control circuit Finga?
Don't say 'blow the sh!ter' because that's in the critical cable length basket.
Well it could blow the sh!tter out of something :)

Is there any electronics in the switch or relay??
About about the coil in the relay??
I don't know what's in the relay or switch but if someone recommends 3A protection on the control circuit I'd be using it. I wouldn't be using 10A because it was just convenient.

What if there is a fault in the control circuit that places a 10A load on the control circuit (circuit protection 10A) and the contacts of the switch are only rated to 4A??
The fuse doesn't blow but the contacts in the switch melt together.
End result....Switch is buggered. A 3A breaker or fuse instead of 10A would have protected the switch.
What's the switch worth against the price of the correctly rated circuit protection from word go?
That scenario would be commonplace now as more and more switches become smaller and smaller and more expensive.
The same could be said about the coil in the relay. Circuit protection that's too high could melt the coil in the relay if there is a fault that doesn't blow the 10A fuse. How much are those reversing relays worth??

Why don't we use 10A fuses or breakers in GPS's or Sounders or radios seeing the wire going to it would carry the current no worries at all.

Yeah. Your right Andy. What should it be called then??
Ground gives some people the idea it goes to the main body of the hull of the boat....especially aluminium boats. Negative does mean minus but the terminal on the battery says N or Negative.
Maybe they're negative and positive relative to the median voltage??
I'm buggered if I know.

[finga]

I specifically stayed away from this thread, could not handle another wire size debate :P Could not help myself in the end ::) Had to check up on you lot.:-X
There's no debate Andy. Just making sure we're all talking about apples instead of apples and oranges. There is always confusion in cable sizes. Some use cross sectional area and some use automotive sizing. No-one is wrong.....as long as we know which one is used :)

Where is Googleboot??

[timddo]

Ozcott

Try googling up Solar cables - Tinned cables

http://www.springers.com.au/product.asp?SKU=936

However they are saying there 10mm2 cable is 21.74 auto cable
So there 16mm2 cable is 34.78m2 @ 9.90 twin sheath.

[Jarrah Jack]

Where is Googleboot??

Can you give us a googleboot impersonation Finga :D

[Fed]

I agree Finga, a 3 Amp manual circuit breaker was specified and a particular brand was recommended so sticking to the manufacturer's specs is only common sense.
Generally speaking C/Bs & fuses are only for cable protection but I know you already knew that.
Did come across a little snippet a while back, I had a tiny spark when I disconnected my battery & thought I wonder where that's coming from?
I tracked it down to a very small leakage in my rectifier/regulator and a much bigger leakage in my GME radio even when it was turned off.
I rang GME & the techi guy explained they put a diode directly across the incoming power before the switch designed to blow the little 3 Amp? fuse in case of reverse polarity so in that case the fuse also played a role other than cable protection.

Don't get me started about cable sizes, who in their right mind makes a cable then decides to make up their own sizing system?
SWG, AWG, B&S, they may as well named their sizes after animals or something, "Hey you, pass me a roll of Giraffe Twin & Earth".

[finga]

Can you give us a googleboot impersonation Finga :D

Wellllllll.......NO!!
:D

Now don't upset me today.
We start a whole lot of debt at about 2.15pm. We take over the farm and I'm in a good mood.....so back off bucko >:(


You bugger Fed. You just wanted me to type all that mumbo jumbo didn't you??
I took me bloody ages too it did :-?
;D;D
Cheers Alfred :)

[Fed]

I was hoping by agreeing with you it would take the wind out of your sails Finga.

Another little snippet in the winch manual it also said the 50 Amp mains breaker will offer 'some' protection to the motor so you do have a valid point.

[HH565L]

Haven't been on here for a few days otherwise I would have congratulated you on your purchase and offered some support earlier.

Correct cable sizing takes in to account length of cable run, cable resistance and voltage drop. In addition we consider all aspects of winch operation winch operation (including pro-longed use in fouled anchor situations and anchoring in deeper water), and anticipate installation issues such as the proximity of the cables to each other and that they may pass through a conduit or duct.

Taking all of that in to account, and assuming a boat length of 6-7m, we recommend MAR 3B&S which is equivalent to 25mm^2 in Australian Standard electrical terms for our smaller drum winches ie fitted with a 500/600W motor.

As for the control cables, we also tend to use 1.5-2.5mm^2 depending on the length of run between the solenoid and switch. The control circuit to the solenoid is generally protected by a 4 or 5amp fuse so there is no chance of the cable being compromised if a short circuit occurs.

[Grand_Marlin]

Well if I stuffed it up so could anyone else.....couldn't they??
;)
I was referring to the 10A protection on the control circuit. It may be not good.

Cheers then matey......and get to work ;D

Sorry for the late reply... I was at work!
I knew what you were referring to but I could not help pulling the chain that was left dangling ;D

Always good to clear up any confusion, thanks for pointing it out.

Cheers

Pete

[finga]

Oi Pete....have you ever heard the saying...
Don't let your dingle dongles dangle in the dirt or you might have to pick them up and wipe them on your shirt.

[TheRealAndy]

Generally speaking C/Bs & fuses are only for cable protection but I know you already knew that.

Can I correct you on that?? Fuses are to prevent electrical fires due to overload! :wiseguy:


Don't get me started about cable sizes, who in their right mind makes a cable then decides to make up their own sizing system?
SWG, AWG, B&S, they may as well named their sizes after animals or something, "Hey you, pass me a roll of Giraffe Twin & Earth".

Dont forget metric, then the dodgy auto sizes!! And the BWG.

This all came about from different manufacturers from different companies in different countries. It should all be standardised to metric, like everything else in the world outside the USA.

Speaking of B&S, it always annoys me when I look at the bias catalog and see it refered to as Battery and Starter rating :furious2: Its Brown and Sharp aka AWG.

[Grand_Marlin]

Oi Pete....have you ever heard the saying...
Don't let your dingle dongles dangle in the dirt or you might have to pick them up and wipe them on your shirt.

Can't say I have, but it sounds nasty :evil:

Point taken and understood ;)

Cheers

Pete

[ozscott]

Thanks again gentleman. HH565L thanks mate. Before I saw your post I bought the 6B&S. It should be sweet at 145amp and with the motor at 400w so under yours bigger ones. If Pete's Maxwell runs well in his Patriot which is a little longer than mine and presumably same size winch my set up should have very little voltage drop even when working the winch for a long time. Cheers

[finga]

What point??

I thought it was meaningless crap you try to say ten times whilst drunk. :D

[ozscott]

Just pulled the side of my windlass before installing for a little look. Its a beautifully engineered windlass. It runs clutch plates both sides of the gypsy like an auto gearbox and you fan adjust freefall speed with it. The gearbox is sealed, and full of oil and to be drained, cleaned and re-oiled every three years. The thing is seriously heavy too.

I noticed that the motor is made in Milan, Italy. I also noticed the motor is the 600watt, not the 400 watt. One of the windlass guys I spoke to mentioned there was a recent upgrade to the HRC 6 FF to a 600 watt motor. Interestingly the manual still says it should be a 400 watt with the HRC 8 getting the 600 watt.

Anyway I have mounted it and the drop for the rode looks pretty good - not the deepest part, but just out from it and the rode should fall nicely down the steep hull wall. I ran out of tin coated wire, so I will have to grab some to finish it all...whitworths isnt open on Sunday, so it might be a next week job unfortunately.

Cheers

[Jarrah Jack]

Anyway I have mounted it and the drop for the rode looks pretty good -

Cheers

I presume you're talking about the winch......

Must be a seriously good bit of kit. Will be interesting to read your impressions after a few trips with it compared to the SP. I thought 400w was a bit light for your size boat.

The good thing about gypsy type winches compared to the drum type is that you can anchor if there's a failure somewhere. I can't access my rode if the power out doesn't work.( flat battery etc) With some mucking around I could get the chain off but I need to carry extra rope, which I do.

[ozscott]

Haha - mate I should have a drop for the road too.

The only difference between the HRC 6 and 8 is the motor power - the rest is identical and you can get the HRC 8 in a 6mm gypsy...there is nothing on the box, windlass, nor instructions to say HRC 6, and the motor is 600w according to the motor plate...so its probably a HRC 8 with a 6mm chain gypsy....so...is my 6B&S still an appropriate size...

Cheers

[ozscott]

...actually just thinking about it - 600w rated pull is over 400kg...it will be working so under its capacity (unless snagged) that it will never constantly draw its full 600w capacity...so the wire should be fine (the 6b&s is rated at 140amp, but that would be max short term before melting I guess - but even if it is say 80-90 amps constant capacity, thats still heaps).

Cheers

[Fed]

The Maxwell table says that up to a total 10M run (2x5M) you can use 6.5mm².
If you plug that into the Voltage drop calculator you will see that they accept a voltage drop of up to 1.3 Volts.
http://redarc.com.au/handy-hints/calculators/voltage-drop-calculator
You are at 12M in total (2x6M) with 13.29mm² (6B&S) cable which would only need to be 7.85mm² to keep within the guidelines of the Maxwell table I posted earlier.

[ozscott]

Thanks Fed - the problem I was raving on about was that this motor is actually a 600w not the 400 per the manual - ie I have a higher model up - HRC 8 which sets out the following specs:

HRC-FF 8 12V Systems
Cable Length

Cable Length Cable Size
mm² - AWG
Up to 10m (33') 16mm - AWG 5
10m - 17m (33' - 56') 26mm - AWG 3
17m - 27m (56' - 88') 42mm - AWG 1

So according to the manual the 600 watt motor is min 16mm squared. I am going to suck it and see how the 6B&S goes I think. The manual also says you can use lesser sized wire, but not to go under 6.5mm squared for the 50 amp breaker...so it appears that 'acceptable' voltage loss can be pretty high. I have double the minimum for that breaker (setting aside the motor size) so I should be right even if the motor may not be able to use all its 600w rating...

Cheers

[Fed]

Download the manual from the Maxwell website.
79659

[ozscott]

Thanks Fed - mate thats another winch - its confusing because they call mine a HRC also, but mine is the HRC 6 FF...http://www.maxwellmarine.com/support_manuals.php and its the one under HRC 6 and then the sub menu HRC FF. I dont know how to post up the image like you have done but that manual shows the HRC 6 as 400 watt and the HRC 8 as 600...

Thanks again mate.

[Fed]

So you have a HRC 6 FF?
I don't see any listing for it.
It doesn't matter anyway because you have a 600W motor with a 50A circuit breaker and any cable over 8mm² will still fall into their voltage drop guidelines.
Your 6B&S is equivalent to 13.29mm², way over the minimum.

[Fed]

but mine is the HRC 6 FF...http://www.maxwellmarine.com/support_manuals.php and its the one under HRC 6 and then the sub menu HRC FF.
I must be going blind or something or senile more likely???
Where exactly is the HRC FF?

[Fed]

Found the sucker, that one is still only calling for 10.5mm² cable for a 10-17M total cable length.

[ozscott]

Thanks mate. The 10.5 is for what the manual says is he hrc 6 400watt but my motor is marked 600watt - even though I ordered the HRC 6. The hrc8 is 600 watt and it calls for 26mm squared wire for the 10-17m run. I have emailed Maxwell about it but I will still suck it and see with the 6b&s I think. Cheers

[ozscott]

Thanks mate. The 10.5 is for what the manual says is he hrc 6 400watt but my motor is marked 600watt - even though I ordered the HRC 6. The hrc8 is 600 watt and it calls for 26mm squared wire for the 10-17m run. I have emailed Maxwell about it but I will still suck it and see with the 6b&s I think. Cheers

Ps a seller and installer mentioned to me that he thought Maxwell had upgraded their motors to 600w. This post also refers to it. http://www.mrfisho.com.au/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=148&jfile=viewtopic.php&f=7&t=10746&p=88972


Thing is Maxwell have not changed their manuals nor their advertising!!!

[Fed]

Your 6B&S will be more than enough but you should send an email to let them know they are mistaken.
Don't forget @ 12M you're at the very bottom end of the 10M->17M scale.

400W -> 600W should increase the mm² cable size by exactly the same proportion.

Using their own table on a 10M-17M run they say an increase from
10.5mm² to 26mm² is required..... it's just not right.

Refer them to the voltage drop calculator I posted, tell them to lift their act and correct their documentation.

PS: I just went out the back & kissed my anka yanka.

[ozscott]

Too true!! Cheers and thanks again mate.

[ozscott]

Ok so the windlass is a beast and the wires are proving spot on even with extended use. This is a very understressed winch and bloody quick . Cheers and thanks

[Jarrah Jack]

Ok so the windlass is a beast and the wires are proving spot on even with extended use. This is a very understressed winch and bloody quick . Cheers and thanks

A guy who sells winches asked me why I put one in my boat. I said because I was a lazy bugger and so are my deckies. Welcome to the club Scott.:)

[HH565L]

Glad to hear its all working as expected Scott.

Terry, the bloke you're talking about probably just wanted to know what motivated you.

People install winches for a number of reasons. Being Slack is just one of them. ;)

PS: It was good to catch up mate. ;D