Grey Import Legal Concerns

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Guys,

As more and more people are starting to import their own boats and electronics, it has come to light that the person who imports the product carries full responsibility as an importer for the life of the product.

This means that the importer has to make sure the boat, trailer, wiring and electronics comply with all Australian standards and design rules.
Yes, there are Australian standards for building boats, wiring and electronics. When you start researching the Australian Standards it is like a mine field... hard to find all associated legislation and bloody expensive!

This also means that you are still responsible for any of these products after you have sold them to the next owner, and when he has sold it to the next etc, etc.

Check this out:
http://www.marineqld.com.au/grey-imports-buyer-beware

The personal importing of products has become a big part of the boating industry in Australia and for the forseeable future will stay that way.

Whilst I think the chances of being prosecuted for something going wrong are small, the consequences are real and would be huge... best off protecting yourself in the first place.

I don't have the exact answers to protecting yourself, but maybe:
- Contact the manufacturer and ask if the product meets Australian Standards.
- Contact MSQ and ask if the product meets Australian Standards.
- Insurance against possible non compliance?? (doubt this would happen)

Any other ideas?

Cheers,

Pete

[john b ward]

i feel that most of the usa product is as good as australian made and complys with all regulations here , perhaps a punt from thailand with an exposed diesel motor on a piviot pole might be a bit of a problem ,
but all the boats i have imported are top quailty and top brand names.I have had no problems putting my name on them and selling them on to more than happy australian boaties.

[Grand_Marlin]

i feel that most of the usa product is as good as australian made and complys with all regulations here , perhaps a punt from thailand with an exposed diesel motor on a piviot pole might be a bit of a problem ,
but all the boats i have imported are top quailty and top brand names.I have had no problems putting my name on them and selling them on to more than happy australian boaties.

I agree fully and I am more than happy with the construction of the USA, Chinese, Vietnamese boats that I have worked on / seen so far.
Both Australian and International boat builders have there good and bad points

BUT

The point I make is how do you know for certain that they comply with Australian Standards?

[finga]

A good point in hand is shore power on a lot of boats that are imported from the US and further a field.
Do they comply?? Usual answer is not a hope in hell and unless everything is ripped out and redone then it will never pass.
But what usually happens to most? A different socket put on the outside and power-points changed.

[Moonlighter]

To be honest, i think that this "legality of grey imports" biz is to a large extent a beat up, a scare campaign, being run by local manufacturs and, cynically,importers, to try to protect themselves and to shore up the ridiculous prices they charge us for these same goods when they import them themselves!

Why?

Because when it comes to boat building standards, the US boat building standards are recognized and in fact are often "called up" in the Australian standards. For example, the Australian Builders Plate standard cites the USCG and NMAA standards as acceptable standards. It also calls up the European CE standrds as well. Plus the US standards are recognized as more stringent than ours in many areas anyway, so the risk would be minimal.

When it comes to electrical wiring of boats, the USCG standards are very stringent. I have looked but I can't find any such standards applying to Australian boats? Perhaps someone else is aware of what they are and can cite them to us, if they in fact exist? Don't confuse that with the "tick" that electrical and electronic items such as GPS need to meet, that's a separate item. Grand Marlin does lots of boat wiring work, maybe he can point us to the exact standard document that sets out boat wiring requirements?

Also, when it comes to the Australian boat building standards, I think they are largely a joke.

Why?

Because there is no certification process! Compare that to the CE boat building standard where the builder has to demonstrate through exhaustive documentation that they have systems in place to ensure their boats are designed and built to a consistent standard, and they have to be independently inspected and assessed before they are allowed to use the CE mark on their boats, and are subject to random audits and inspections in other to maintain that accreditation.

The Australian boat building standard includes no such requirements...... None at all. Relies totally on the honesty and competence of the boat builder.

Boat buyer: Did you build that boat to meet the Australian Standard AS1799?

Boat builder: Sure mate, blood oath, guaranteed!

Yeah, right......

Conclusion? Any boat built to USCG, NMAA or CE or similar recognized standards would hardly be likely to expose the importer, whether they are a private person or a business, to any appreciable level of risk compared to one built to the lax Australian standards. So that would be the message to anyone importing a boat - just make sure it's built to one of those standards and carries the certification on it's builders plate.

Cheers

ML

[Moonlighter]

By the way, converting a boat trailer from overseas to meet the Asutralian standard is pretty simple. Get a copy of the VSB and it sets it it out quite clearly, anyone with half a brain can work out what needs to be done with couplings, lights, brakes, tyres and wheels, don't need to be a ginger-beer or even a mechanic to understand it and make it comply. Plus, to get it registered, it has to be inspected and passed.

Once Transport has inspected and officially passed it for registration, then what liability issues relating to standards remain for the importer?

Cheers

ML

[Horse]

That is a nasty cheap shot from Marine Queensland. They are a local industry body pushing a scare campaign to support their own agenda. Obviously items such as trailers have specific requirements to be met but the rest is just cr@p. I would have no concerns picking up a boat from the US and onselling it. I can understand why local companies are getting concerned with parallel imports. I can purchase a boat from the US and get it delivered for a lot less than a comparable local product. I would certainly be more cautious about something untried from Asia as issues with wiring, fuel containment and flamability of components may have been designed to lower standards

[gofishin]

Quote excerpts from the link…
“Is it Legal?

Products are manufactured for specific markets (or regions).This product is manufactured to comply with standards and specifications of each market.”
This is True

“Product which is imported into Australia must be assessed against Australian Regulations and Standards. “
True but only Regulatory or Mandatory Standards. Not all Australian Standards are ‘Regulation’!

Hmmm, there is a bit of chest puffing and muscle flexing going on in their website Pete, maybe with a bit of bluffing too in some cases –as it depends a lot on the type and size of boat, and what it is intended to be used for. However, they also need to protect their members I suppose, as well as the general public, because in some import cases there would be definite areas for concern.

Some imports would be of concern (larger cruisers with 240Vsystems and permanent LPG appliances etc), and others not so (small pleasure craft). You see not all Australian Standards are what are called “Mandatory” or “Regulatory” Standards, which must be complied with by Law. AS1799 SmallCraft/Pleasure Boats is only an “advisory standard”. Obviously one would prefer that their import complies with this standard, as it may mean a better boat! As a matter of interest this Australian Standard has been around since 1975, however up until probably the late 90’s (or later!) most Aussie small craft builders would not have even had a copy, let alone knew there was one! Several sections of it have recently been revised to bring it in line with current US and EU Standards.

The Australian Builders Plate (ABP) is regulation, and has been for a while, however this is not a ‘Standard’. Builders have a choice of flotation standards to comply with, and it doesn’t have to be AS1799.

What a lot of people don’t know is that for many decades US, Canadian and European pleasure boat markets have had Regulated Standards for small pleasure craft covering flotation, loading, maximum power rating and fuel systems, among others – and we still have none! Their small boats have been built (and still are) to a lot higher standards than our boats have needed to be. What’s more, their flotation systems for sub 6m boats are far more stringent (safer) than our current regulations require, as all outboard powered boats under 6m need to have level flotation.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking the local product. Some of them (my Cruise Craft included) are built to a very high standard across the board, as they are exported to regions requiring these high standards. But in this sector our ‘Marine Industry’ has a lot more to go before we can say ‘watch out for imports’ from the markets mentioned above.

Cheers
Brendon

[Grand_Marlin]

The electrical, especially 240v is always a problem, as Finga pointed out.
The electrical standard is AS/NZS 3004 - this gives reference to 240v installations, marina installations / connections and also outlines ELV requirements.
This was upgraded about 3 or 4 years ago as there was a big grey area as to when the 240v (or 110v) became illegal. The consensus was that it was not illegal no matter what the installation, colour coding or origin if the boat was sitting in a marina, out at sea or on a trailer ... it became illegal when it was connected to shore power.
AS 3004 now regulates the requirements for onboard installations. (please correct me if I am not entirely right)

AS 4132 and AS 1799 are alive and working but as you say ML, there is no formal certification / checking process ... it is self assessed.

Is it written specifically in either AS4132 or AS1799 that the USCG regulations are accepted as meeting our standards?
If so, then problem solved.

[Moonlighter]

AS1799 calls up a long list of ISO standards, amongst other things, and boats built to those International standards are stated to comply with AS1799.

I'm with Brendon on this issue, not knocking local builders, but there is a lot of huff n puff in this issue, and trying to scare people with claims of legal liability.

Does anyone really think that boats built to the US or CE standards would present a greater risk to an importer than a boat built locally to comply with AS1799? You can bet that our Seppo mates, who sue people at the blink of an eye, would have thoroughly tested US manufactured boats in their court system!

I notice that Marine Ql didn't cite any actual decided legal cases of privately imported marine product where the importer was found to have a liability to back up their claims. It is easy to make those sorts of generalizations but when you dig a bit deeper, there is often nothing much there.

Really, would a privately imported Seaswirl pose a greater risk than one imported by a Marine Qld member? Pardon me? Is that their argument?

ML

[Grand_Marlin]

Quote excerpts from the link…
“Is it Legal?
“Product which is imported into Australia must be assessed against Australian Regulations and Standards. “
True but only Regulatory or Mandatory Standards. Not all Australian Standards are ‘Regulation’!

Cheers
Brendon

Acts and Regulations call up advisory standards for the finer points or the "how to" part of the task.
Advisory Standards create the minimum standard to which a task has to be done and will most certainly be called upon in a court of law (and used as law) if it is to be proven that a product does not comply with the minimum accepted standard.

Great discussion Guys, but I am looking for concrete evidence that states any given imported boat meets our minimum Australian Standards.

A lot of the industry has decided to beat up the the negatives of grey imports instead of finding ways of dealing with it.
I step out on a limb by saying that because it is important to a lot of people and has affected a lot of people... some choose to do nothing about it, others have absolutely no choice and will / have gone out of business because of it.
I also fully believe that the world is on a lot more level playing field since the advent of the internet and more recently the global financial crisis.
Whilst the exchange rates remain comparitive around the world, people will continue to personally import goods.

As a personal thing for me, I find that our sales have only dropped marginally because of imported goods (mainly sounders / gps units), but our installation, maintenance and rewires have increased because of the work required on boats being personally imported.

[wirlybird]

I just got stopped by my compliance team from having a tinny mass produced in china. Why it didn't meet the compliance standards

I was spewing but what can you do us big company's have to comply with the standards

[Grand_Marlin]

AS1799 calls up a long list of ISO standards, amongst other things, and boats built to those International standards are stated to comply with AS1799.

I'm with Brendon on this issue, not knocking local builders, but there is a lot of huff n puff in this issue, and trying to scare people with claims of legal liability.

Does anyone really think that boats built to the US or CE standards would present a greater risk to an importer than a boat built locally to comply with AS1799? You can bet that our Seppo mates, who sue people at the blink of an eye, would have thoroughly tested US manufactured boats in their court system!

I notice that Marine Ql didn't cite any actual decided legal cases of privately imported marine product where the importer was found to have a liability to back up their claims. It is easy to make those sorts of generalizations but when you dig a bit deeper, there is often nothing much there.

Really, would a privately imported Seaswirl pose a greater risk than one imported by a Marine Qld member? Pardon me? Is that their argument?

ML

Very good comments.
The comment they make that all boats must meet the standard is true... should that statement go further to say that boats a, b anf c do, but boat d doesn't?
Do they secretly know that all USCG certified boats are better built and exceed our standards?
My comment is that it isn't their obligation to know... it is the importer that has to prove compliance.
I could also say that if they thought there was a boat that didn't comply they would be all over it like a rash with quotes from legislation, pictures and media coverage to push their case and that of local manufacturers.

I still haven't seen some concrete evidence to make me 100% satisfied that imported boats meet our required standard.

[IcyDuck]

Certainly sounds like a bit of scare mongering to me. I guess they are just doing their job and looking after their members. I wonder who this warning is really intended for. Is it the private individual importing a 5 to 10 year old Striper to save a few bucks? I wouldn't call that grey importing. Or is it those importing new boats manufactured overseas from non Marine Qld members or going outside of the authorised dealer network for a particular brand. I thought grey importing only referred to new products.

Regards Phil.

[Steeler]

Funded by its members for its members own interest.

[finga]

The electrical, especially 240v is always a problem, as Finga pointed out.
The electrical standard is AS/NZS 3004 - this gives reference to 240v installations, marina installations / connections and also outlines ELV requirements.
This was upgraded about 3 or 4 years ago as there was a big grey area as to when the 240v (or 110v) became illegal. The consensus was that it was not illegal no matter what the installation, colour coding or origin if the boat was sitting in a marina, out at sea or on a trailer ... it became illegal when it was connected to shore power.
AS 3004 now regulates the requirements for onboard installations. (please correct me if I am not entirely right)
If I remember it comes down to the ability to be plugged into shore power.
If it's possible to be plugged into shore power then there is a reasonable expectation of the vessel complying with relavent Australian standards.

A lot of these grey imports are bigger boats otherwise it's just not worth the hassle of going through the import rig-moral.
As such a lot have the provision for shore power connections.

[Stuart]

That’s right. Take my business for example. I build game rods and sell a large % of these overseas. If by any chance one of my rods snap and the angler or some one else is injured due to the rod breaking I could be potentially liable for injuries or damage resulting in the rod breaking. My friend is a lawyer specialising in International law and he said the same about importing boats or indeed any products. If that said product fails and causes damage to personal being or property then the importer is the first stop when the lawyers get involved. I contacted a company the other week about a product they import “grey is the term” and I asked about warranty “I already new the answer to this question” but I wanted to hear their response.

Just as I thought they said if a warranty issues arises then you need to take that up with such and such in the States. In fact any company that says that is not rite and is misleading. If you have warranty issues then by law you deal with the company you purchased it from and NOT the manufacturer. When you make a purchase you have just entered into a contract with that business and NOT the wholesaler and or importer so there for any issues you my have need to be directed to the place of purchase. This also seems to be the case these days with most retailers in this country, the say if you have a warranty you need to contact the importer of that product. I have reminded several shops that this is in fact illegal and misleading but they just shrug there shoulders.

[Feral]

Meeting Australian Standards is not compulsory unless they are called up in legislation. Most manufacturers of goods in Australia do not seek compliance against Australian standards because it is not mandatory. Those who work with Australian Standards will also know that many of them are garbage, no longer get updated, and are generally put in place by self serving industry bodies and are often more about protectionism rather than a genuine need for a local standard.

This mob are the industry body for Oz boat builders and in my opinion its just scare mongering to protect their market. Its a load of crap.

Also has outright lies, for instance - go have a look and see if you have an ADR compliance plate on your legally registered home made trailer.

[Moonlighter]

I understand your point, Garry.

Ultimately though it is all about risk.

For the private individual who imports a US or NZ built boat for their own use, and where that boat is built to USCG, NMAA or CE standards and has appropriate mark on the builders plate, it would seem to me that the risk of anything happening that was caused by a fault in the design or manufacture of the boat and the owner/importer being sued as a result would be very, very slim. And no more likely than for a boat built to the As1799. Probably much less risk compared to an Aus built boat in fact, because as Brendan points out, their mandatory standards are higher than ours and require certification and inspection as well.

And even then, it would have to be shown that the boat was not built to meet AS1799 and that was the cause of the injury or contributed.

I think that it is a different ball game if a private person imported numerous new boats and started to sell them.

Actually, maybe I am wrong on that point. Because if that person forms a business and joins Marine Qld, then those boats he imports are suddenly and miraculously OK to sell here. Yes, the importer bears responsibility, but now that he's been appoint as the agent, it's all ok, he just gets a bunch of Australian Builders Plates made up, gets some docs from the US manufacturer to back him up and all is good.

Hmmmmmm.....

ML

[PinHead]

That’s right. Take my business for example. I build game rods and sell a large % of these overseas. If by any chance one of my rods snap and the angler or some one else is injured due to the rod breaking I could be potentially liable for injuries or damage resulting in the rod breaking. My friend is a lawyer specialising in International law and he said the same about importing boats or indeed any products. If that said product fails and causes damage to personal being or property then the importer is the first stop when the lawyers get involved. I contacted a company the other week about a product they import “grey is the term” and I asked about warranty “I already new the answer to this question” but I wanted to hear their response.

Just as I thought they said if a warranty issues arises then you need to take that up with such and such in the States. In fact any company that says that is not rite and is misleading. If you have warranty issues then by law you deal with the company you purchased it from and NOT the manufacturer. When you make a purchase you have just entered into a contract with that business and NOT the wholesaler and or importer so there for any issues you my have need to be directed to the place of purchase. This also seems to be the case these days with most retailers in this country, the say if you have a warranty you need to contact the importer of that product. I have reminded several shops that this is in fact illegal and misleading but they just shrug there shoulders.

Not quite correct Stuart..was involved in something similar a while back with a mob I worked for. A/C unit supplied and installed. Installation warranty - 12 months. manufacturers warranty - 5 years. The client placed a call after 2 years..was informed he would have to pay for call out. The bloke inspected the unit and deemed it to be manufacturers warranty..for the client to contact the manufacturer. Client refused to pay the call out fee etc. It went to court..the client lost and had to pay the fees and costs. he then contacted the manufacturer and the unit was repaired at nil cost to him as it was under manufacturers warranty..and not by the supplier/installer

[PinHead]

If I remember it comes down to the ability to be plugged into shore power.
If it's possible to be plugged into shore power then there is a reasonable expectation of the vessel complying with relavent Australian standards.

A lot of these grey imports are bigger boats otherwise it's just not worth the hassle of going through the import rig-moral.
As such a lot have the provision for shore power connections.

Scott..when the Chaparral arrived..it was wired for 240V AC but the importer still had to get a certifier here to sign off that it complied with our standard before I could take delivery.

[Horse]

Larger vessels will not get insurance without a surveyor giving the all clear. This means getting gas and 240v signed off. I would want to get these items cleared on any boat for my own sense of safety

[Apollo]

Mine will be on the ship next week (barring any unforseen issues) from the US. You can buy the boat new in Australia from an Aust rep/dealer, it swings a yamaha off the back and uses off the shelf gear aboard. Nothign is shore based powered. The trailer is new to Aust specs, so I feel I will be sweet. Article was a wind up.

[Greg P]

Nothing new in this scenario and it goes across a lot of industries - not just marine. We recently had instances in one of our business divisions of probably the biggest earthmoving equipment auction house in Australia/world importing "new" mobile crushers for sale during their latest round of auctions. I pity the guys who buy these things as they think they are picking up a bargain (not really even that much cheaper - plus no warranty/spare parts/service support) but that auction house as "importer" of the equipment is liable for all damages etc if it all goes pear shaped and someone gets injured or worse.

I think the electronics thing is a beat up but as a major importer of mining/quarrying machinery I know first hand that there is a lot of EHS requirements/responsibilities and legalities that are covered by the OEM for equipment to come into Australia and meet the relevant local mining standards. Dont start me on MDG15 and the like ::):'(:'(:'(