Big brother is watching.

[outwide1]

I heard on one of the morning shows that the fedral government is requesting that all insurance companies submit the names and details of all boat owners in Australia that have purchased boats over $25000 in value to the tax office.This is being done for the tax department to scrutinize wether the owners can afford these boats and prove how they were purchased in relation to what we earn.Id say there would be alot drug dealers and tax dodgers worried when they come knocking.:'(lol:-?
Good old big brother is allways watching.;)
Cheers Mick

[PinHead]

big brother is always watching. They have industry standard percentage of wages to income etc..and you have some explainging to do if you are outside those. I know..been there done that.

earnings have nothing to do with what boat you can buy..how do they work that out ?

[Luc]

All based on benchmarks and profiling.

Lifestyle & financial commitments gives an indication of the benchmark $$ you need to support that lifestyle/commitments.

If you're significantly outside those benchmarks, you could expect a "please explain".

For example, you have a mortgage (say $350,000), supporting spouse & couple of kids (food, medical, school,power, water, rates etc...), lodge a tax return declaring income of $100,000 and you've just bought a $50,000 boat!!

[fishfeeder]

How about they audit our Polies and ask where there money comes from, MORE crooks in our Government then drug dealers on the Gold Coast if you ask me.
This just shows how screwed Australia is financially if they have to question the hard working because they save for years to buy a boat to enjoy a better relaxing life style. Then your classed as a TAX cheat or a Drug Dealer because your can afford a $50k boat. How many people have $30-$50+K cars in there drive ways as well as a $300K home loan, The answer is Most of Australia.

You would laugh if it wasn't so pathetic !!

[outwide1]

Im with you fishfeeder,they are the crooks and im tired of it.They (the government)have just deciced to give themselfs another
pay increase of $40000 to attract a better class of polie.Thats there second increase this year.
At the end of the day what can or will Australians do about it,nothing.
I sacrifised a lifestyle for 5 years to pay mine off

[MudRiverDan]

They mus be paying cash, because I always thought the tax department has a record of all bank transactions over $5000.00 sent from the banks.

[Mossy247]

They mus be paying cash, because I always thought the tax department has a record of all bank transactions over $5000.00 sent from the banks.

Not too many drug dealers with EFTPOS hey ;D

[outwide1]

I wouldnt know any dealers Mossy,especially ones with eftpos.lol

[nigelr]

Should have included Harley Davidsons valued at over $25K.........

[URAGANGI]

I've never used pollies as crab bait???
Let's see now.., They are slimy fat and oily..., Hmmm..,This might just work. Just a passing thought. If we went back into time, let's say during the bronze age, or even earlier. The so called peasant working surf, was alway's over taxed and whiped. Nothing has changed. The Modern working class still bears the brunt of the fat cats. I work two jobs and a total working week of 65 to 70hr week. If I own a nice fishing rig. I friggin worked for it and deserve it. And there are more before me, in a like wise situation. Julia if you took a pay cut, you'd learn too survive. The rest of Australia has.!! Why can't the rest of your white collared cronies cut the blue collars some slack.

Just a rant.. Time to move on!
Cheers.

[oldboot]

Ahh, serioulsy there has always been a connection with dodgy money and expensive boats....the tax department can already see our bank accounts, what they are looking for is expensive boats that have been baught for cash that does not show up as being from a legitimate source.

Or people who are crying poor and paying no tax but still own an expensive boat.

If you have scrimped and saved for a boat or you are indebt up to your eyeballs for a boat, that will be plain and obvious from your bank records.

cheers

[finga]

If you haven't done anything dodgy then you'll have no worries.
Even if you brought a $50,000 boat for cash and could show where the money came from you'd be right.
More then likely they'll interview you at home and take into account your whole lifestyle if they questioned you at all.
It's pretty obvious when people save and save and save.
But if your income is $12,000 and you live at Hope Island and your boat uses 80/hr and your car is worth $120,000 and you drink Crowny's all the time then your buggered :D

They also look into classic cars, motorcycles and near anything else that's insurable.
I've been asked about my cars and bikes etc etc and was never a worry.

[oldboot]

There arent many places that you'll find $25gorillas in legtmate unaccounted for cash lying arround these days.

Cheers

[pescados]

Going by the comments above, looks like the KGB is alive and well and putting their noses in other people's business
so they can see how much more they can screw the workers so they can have pay rises.
A lead sandwich comes to mind to send to Canberra, one for each. >:(

[Gazza]

No , just simplifying the list of target "possible tax-evaders" ;) ,rotating each year....to limit our collectible contributions

fingas on the money & worm-pulse :)

[oldboot]

Going by the comments above, looks like the KGB is alive and well and putting their noses in other people's business
so they can see how much more they can screw the workers so they can have pay rises.
A lead sandwich comes to mind to send to Canberra, one for each. >:(

How much you earn, and how much tax you pay IS very much THEIR business.....and there will always be those who think the rules don't apply to them and they should not pay their fair share.

If you think our tax department is intrusive...just thank your lucky starts you don't live in most other developed countries.

cheers

[PinHead]

How much you earn, and how much tax you pay IS very much THEIR business.....and there will always be those who think the rules don't apply to them and they should not pay their fair share.

If you think our tax department is intrusive...just thank your lucky starts you don't live in most other developed countries.

cheers

but what does that have to do with what boat you buy?

[oldboot]

Hey these are bean counting trolls, they don't care what boat you baught, only how much you spent, where it came from and how much TAX is owed.

OH and of course....if you have a large tax bill that you cant pay.....how much they can sell your boat for. :)

cheers

[PinHead]

and what if the money you bought it with is tax free..what the hell does it have to do with them?

[oldboot]

If that money is tax free, of course you will have the documentation to prove that...right.

Even if there is no tax payable on an amount of money...its still beans to be counted and zero is a number.

In this day and age any ligitimate transaction of $25 000 will not go unscrutinised, no matter the source or destination.

Just try drawing $25G in cash from your bank or getting on an overseas plane with $25G in cash.

cheers

[PinHead]

If that money is tax free, of course you will have the documentation to prove that...right.

Even if there is no tax payable on an amount of money...its still beans to be counted and zero is a number.

In this day and age any ligitimate transaction of $25 000 will not go unscrutinised, no matter the source or destination.

Just try drawing $25G in cash from your bank or getting on an overseas plane with $25G in cash.

cheers

some might and some might not. I have bought a boat with tax free money..if the ATO asked at the time they would havebeen toldto p off.

[Gordie]

There is no where to hide fellas. I recently sold my Tinnie to help finance an overseas trip for my Wife and I.

Being on the pension we have to tell the C.link office when you are leaving the country and when you return. Something like 48/ 72 hours or they will cut your pension.

We phoned within a day or so and they said yes they know we were back!

Their computers are linked to customs, so they know when you sneeze.

Gordon

[PinHead]

a nanny state Gordon..but I guess with the Govt we have what can you expect. They got rid of Howard's workchoices or whatever it is called..so they made an Ombudsman..fair work australia..that is staffed by nothing but incompetent idiots and I have the paperwork to prove that.

[oldboot]

Pin Head mate, they know where you live,:happy: they probley knew about your tax free dollars before you did and that cash you have stuffed in your matress....they snuck in and counted :sneaky:it while you and the MRS where down the shops.......because you are a dodgy bugger:brood: and self employed they have a toll:freak: living under your bed and he sneaks out and counts the money you tucked in your socks, while you are asleap.:stunned::uhoh::anxious::uhoh::shocked2:

cheers;D

[grave41]

Gazza are you just saying that about scotty because he likes worms for brunch. ASIO and the tax office get a look in at anything over $10000.
Graham

[finga]

If you reckon looking at boats is KGB stuff well have I got news for you.

Out here a few years ago some smart clown worked out how much bailing string went into a making a bail of hay.
They then went and checked how many bails of hay people declared they sold and how much bailing string they brought.
If the two did not match then questions asked.
The smart clown forgot about knots and rats eating the string etc etc etc and many other reasons a ball of string had to be thrown out. A few people had to 'please explain'.

[oldboot]

Don't kid ya self the tax department is not a stupid as some people want to make out.

In many industries they look for an "indicator", it might be bailing twine, chinese food containers, pizza boxes or whatever they think will make a good statistical indicator......something that may look insignificant but is critical to doing the business.

They do some rough calculations, then they do a bunch of audits to prove and refine that indicator......they will intentionally include in that bunch of trial audits, people they know are pretty straight players, as well a those they think are dodgy.

Over a couple of auditing cycles they refine that indicator and account for the wastages and irregularities.

Then they don't need to widely audit that area any more only a taxpayer does not fit the known variations in the profile.

So they continue thru the various industry sectors doing audits, sure they will catch a few and put the wind up plenty more, but these days the primary function of sector wide audits is produce statistical information.

From there they automaticaly via computer analise your tax returns and your financial information to see if it matches the profile.

You can bet your boots that the tax department profiling shows that there are plenty of dodgy bastards out there with expensive boats over $25K.

OR maybe they are just sturing the pot to see what comes to the top.

But don't ever thing you are smarter than the tax department....you aren't.

cheers

[fishfeeder]

Oldboot, by "rough calculations", do you mean like statistical indicators the government used for the low Snapper Stocks.....
The seem pretty close to the same information they use to gather information on whatever they like. THEY MAKE IT UP !!!
How did the government get away with letting total scammers take millions out of our health system, Why didn't the ATO find that crook ???
That's right the ATO was to busy looking at Bailing twine Statistical Information and catching all the Boating tax cheats !!!

Cheers and Beers, Hangon we must be cheating the system, we can afford to buy Beer !!

[finga]

What about all those dole cheats.......
You'd think they could see fraud there.
How can someone who depends on the dole afford a 5 year old Commodore with 22" chrome wheels, smoke, go to the pub and have the latest, greatest mobile phone.
I thought the dole was for subsistence.

[oldboot]

Oldboot, by "rough calculations", do you mean like statistical indicators the government used for the low Snapper Stocks.....
The seem pretty close to the same information they use to gather information on whatever they like. THEY MAKE IT UP !!!
How did the government get away with letting total scammers take millions out of our health system, Why didn't the ATO find that crook ???
That's right the ATO was to busy looking at Bailing twine Statistical Information and catching all the Boating tax cheats !!!

Cheers and Beers, Hangon we must be cheating the system, we can afford to buy Beer !!

If the public servants in the health department or fisheries could do maths they would not be working there, they would have jobs in treasury or be working for the tax department.

As for why the federal tax department did not know what was happening in QLD health......the government does not pay tax and health is a state department.

The biggest insult is that someone so stupid could be allowed to transfer large amounts of funds out of QLD health on an ongoing basis in the first place.
He obvioulsy did not have a plan for getting the money or himself out of the country.


If someone in health did not ring the bell, federal treasury or the tax department would have caught up with the bloke pretty soon anyway......if they did not know first.

Come on $10mil pluss in one hit, ya think that does not go in noticed.

cheers

[Gordie]

I will offend a few people here I am afraid.

About 40 years ago I made a comment about the high quality of some trades persons in a sector of the state gov.

A friend corrected me and said if they had been the best in the college they would be in the private sector. He was right,. I have seen nothing to prove him wrong in the past 40 years looking at many levels of the public service.

Except for a few smart ones who work the system as we have seen in the last few weeks.

Gordon

[oldboot]

That may be true incertain parts of the public service, but there are certain areas of the public service that are very competitive with the private sector particularly these days.

There are some sectors of the public service that does certain functions at a level and at a volume that is simply not commonly done in private enterprise....Finance and economics are a good example of this.

The government owned power utilities such as energex and ergon and the railways certainly take the best pick of the electrical apprentices........their applications open first, their recruitment is rigorous and their training is very good....their recruitment is usually finished before the private sector even opens....but tradesmen arent real public servants, they are low paid and besides they are dirty and smell....this is why the government has got rid of, outsourced, corpritised or privatised most of its trade requirements.


There certainly is a pecking order in the public service, both state, federal and world wide....Treasury and Finance certainly sits at the top always has, it has the best pay rates and staff clasifications, highest status and the smartest people, folowed by administration, transport & infrastructure and then the irritating minor functions like fisheries and public toilets.....the only reason a public servant takes a job in health is because they could not get one somewhere else...its alooser department that can never win...if you want to get anywhere in the public service, get out of health before you get blamed for something

Don't think you can play the old joke and point at public servants and say they are all dumb and lazy.......That simply is not the case in many areas....especially the tax department..and they are agressivly corporate in their outlook.

cheers

[PinHead]

Don't kid ya self the tax department is not a stupid as some people want to make out.

In many industries they look for an "indicator", it might be bailing twine, chinese food containers, pizza boxes or whatever they think will make a good statistical indicator......something that may look insignificant but is critical to doing the business.

They do some rough calculations, then they do a bunch of audits to prove and refine that indicator......they will intentionally include in that bunch of trial audits, people they know are pretty straight players, as well a those they think are dodgy.

Over a couple of auditing cycles they refine that indicator and account for the wastages and irregularities.

Then they don't need to widely audit that area any more only a taxpayer does not fit the known variations in the profile.

So they continue thru the various industry sectors doing audits, sure they will catch a few and put the wind up plenty more, but these days the primary function of sector wide audits is produce statistical information.

From there they automaticaly via computer analise your tax returns and your financial information to see if it matches the profile.

You can bet your boots that the tax department profiling shows that there are plenty of dodgy bastards out there with expensive boats over $25K.

OR maybe they are just sturing the pot to see what comes to the top.

But don't ever thing you are smarter than the tax department....you aren't.

cheers

they sure do have their indicators and when they phone and ask why you do not fit inside their indicators and you tell them why..they just go silent and say they better rethink their indicators..been there done that.

I bought a boat that cost me almost 190k...not one cent was earned and nothing on a tax declaration regarding it..and not a peep from them.

[PinHead]

That may be true incertain parts of the public service, but there are certain areas of the public service that are very competitive with the private sector particularly these days.

There are some sectors of the public service that does certain functions at a level and at a volume that is simply not commonly done in private enterprise....Finance and economics are a good example of this.

The government owned power utilities such as energex and ergon and the railways certainly take the best pick of the electrical apprentices........their applications open first, their recruitment is rigorous and their training is very good....their recruitment is usually finished before the private sector even opens....but tradesmen arent real public servants, they are low paid and besides they are dirty and smell....this is why the government has got rid of, outsourced, corpritised or privatised most of its trade requirements.


There certainly is a pecking order in the public service, both state, federal and world wide....Treasury and Finance certainly sits at the top always has, it has the best pay rates and staff clasifications, highest status and the smartest people, folowed by administration, transport & infrastructure and then the irritating minor functions like fisheries and public toilets.....the only reason a public servant takes a job in health is because they could not get one somewhere else...its alooser department that can never win...if you want to get anywhere in the public service, get out of health before you get blamed for something

Don't think you can play the old joke and point at public servants and say they are all dumb and lazy.......That simply is not the case in many areas....especially the tax department..and they are agressivly corporate in their outlook.

cheers

I hope you better not mention that to the doctors and nurses if you are laid up in a hospital bed.

Not all public servants are dumb and lazy but the vast majority of DG's are totally inexperienced at running a department..just have a myriad of uni degrees.

The only dirty and smelly people who profess to be tradespeople are those that run data and sound system cable..unqualified slobs. The vast majority oif real tradespeople take pride.

[waterbouy]

Simple soultion. Go bush. That would mess with their system (we are just the new slaves). Sell everything, give the money to charity, then claim it on tax, then they owe you money, then see how quickly they contact you when they ow you money. There are too many parasites in the system. Thats why we go fishing to get away from this bull. Duck it, just go bush, and live off the land.

[finga]

The government owned power utilities such as energex and ergon and the railways certainly take the best pick of the electrical apprentices........their applications open first, their recruitment is rigorous and their training is very good....their recruitment is usually finished before the private sector even opens....but tradesmen arent real public servants, they are low paid and besides they are dirty and smell....this is why the government has got rid of, outsourced, corpritised or privatised most of its trade requirements.
cheers
Well bugger me. I was a pick of a bunch of badly paid dirty stinkers by the looks.
Gordy...you can tell your mate he was wrong. Very wrong. When I did my apprenticeship we were the cream of the bunch.
Actually we had to be within the top 5% of the State doing our TAFE or if we got below 80% in an exam we got to please explain.
Speaking of please explain.....Please explain tradesmen arent real public servants, they are low paid and besides they are dirty and smell....this is why the government has got rid of, outsourced, corpritised or privatised most of its trade requirements.
I don't know. I thought I was a public servant working for a supply authority...and I was a tradey. .....and I had a shower everyday (sometimes even two showers) and used underarm B.O. stink killer.
And we were paid pretty good actually I thought.

What is a public servant then??
I thought it was anyone working for any Government organisation whether it be Federal, State or Local. There's no discrimination as to what they did for that particular government.

I just read what Pinhead has said The only dirty and smelly people who profess to be tradespeople are those that run data and sound system cable..unqualified slobs. The vast majority oif real tradespeople take pride.

What's a tradey then??
I thought it was anyone with a trades qualification and completed an apprenticeship.
They're not calling people who simply complete a certificate course without completing a recognised apprenticeship a tradey now are they?? I thought that's how the name came about....Tradey=Trades Qualified.

When did Ergon, Energex and the Railways get rid of their tradespeople??
Who are those blokes who were the Ergon uniform working on power poles and driving Ergon trucks??

I just don't know what I was any more.....I just feel all dirty and smelly and rejected :(

Another thing Gordy....ask your mate why was it left for the trades qualified public servants to inspect all the other trades qualified peoples work if the public servants were so bad at their trade??
ie Sparkies had all their work checked by a public servant (me) and I was sure plumbers and builders and other trades were the same. That was the case wasn't it??

[oldboot]

they sure do have their indicators and when they phone and ask why you do not fit inside their indicators and you tell them why..they just go silent and say they better rethink their indicators..been there done that.

I bought a boat that cost me almost 190k...not one cent was earned and nothing on a tax declaration regarding it..and not a peep from them.

Thats why there is a :freak: trolll under your bed.:uhoh:

[oldboot]

Speaking of please explain.....Please explain tradesmen arent real public servants, they are low paid and besides they are dirty and smell....this is why the government has got rid of, outsourced, corpritised or privatised most of its trade requirements.


I just don't know what I was any more.....I just feel all dirty and smelly and rejected :(



Those clerical and management types have always looked down upon us tradesmen as if we smell, that is why equavalent clerical gradings have always been paid better than technical gradings.....you will always get paid more and have a better career path as a shinny bum clerical type working for any government.

Anyway, very few government departments actually employ tradesmen any more, ya don't get a start in a department unless you have at least one degree.
They are calling degree qualifications for fishing inspectors.....I read the last add..thaught I might apply.

The communication,transport, power and utility orginisations are now corpritised QUANGOs or government owned companies. If you are a tradesman with any of these you are no longer a public servant you are a corporate employee.....AND you are treated like it......alternativly you are a contractor and treated like it.

Believe me, the tradesman is being systematicly replaced by semi skilled labour where possible...even the trades are being dumbed down...most are now only Cert 3 level qualifications.
A full ticket sparky is now only a certificate 3 level qualification.
A total of 24 weeks( from memory) formal training.

Have a look around, a tradesman ( one that is clasified and paid as one) that is directly employed by the government is a very rare thing these days.

Feeling dirty, smelly & rejected....you are far from alone.

cheers

[PinHead]

Q Build employ heaps of tradesmen..they have theirown building section that tenders for work.

Tradesmen with the State Govt are classed as day labour. Prior to compulsory super they were not eligible for the State Govt super scheme or otherl urks nd perks such as flexi time.

[Gordie]

Sorry fellas , it appears that I am out of touch these days and some sectors are the Quiet Achievers. A concept that I admire.

Gordon

[finga]

Believe me, the tradesman is being systematicly replaced by semi skilled labour where possible...even the trades are being dumbed down...most are now only Cert 3 level qualifications.
A full ticket sparky is now only a certificate 3 level qualification.
A total of 24 weeks( from memory) formal training.
cheers
And how long is their apprenticeship??

Which apprenticeship did you do?

[oldboot]

Q Build employ heaps of tradesmen..they have theirown building section that tenders for work.

Tradesmen with the State Govt are classed as day labour. Prior to compulsory super they were not eligible for the State Govt super scheme or otherl urks nd perks such as flexi time.

Qbuild is a corpratised entity, that tenders and "competes" on the open market
with is primary customer as the state government.
It also contracts out a very large portion of its work, it is a mere shadow of the trade and construction component of "The QLD Department of Works" that it replaced.

Where the old state works took a very large intake of apprentices every year, Qbuild only takes on a handfull these days.

cheers

[oldboot]

And how long is their apprenticeship??

Which apprenticeship did you do?

These days there is technicaly no fixed term for an apprenticship, with the advent of competency bassed traing and self paced learning options, if the employer wants to push the process along an electrical apprentice can complete and be passed as competent in less than 3 years and that is without any recognition of prior learning component.

Energex are expecting a significant portion of their apprentices to complete and be passed as competent in 2 1/2 years or less, a lot of that time scale is dictated by the availability of the formal training components.

In private industry, it is more likely that apprentices will run the full 4 years, because an apprentice is cheaper labour than a labourer.

As far as what a trade qualifications is...it is a "Certificate level qualification", The notion of an indentured trade as it was 30 or even 20 years ago, where an apprentice learned at the feet of a highly skilled and competent tradesman who viewed the apprentice as his trade legacy and training that apprentice as a debt owed to the trade has long passed.

As far as what apprenticship I completed......a better one than you Finga :P;D ......

OH and as far as "tradies" these days.....Oh hell on average, less than half of the "tradies" you find on building sites have any qualifications at all, appart from a pair of steel caps and a "general safety induction".
AND a "working safely at heights" or an EPW ticket will get you more work than a trade ticket outside the "closed trades" ( plumbing & electrical).

cheers

[ShaneC]

Just remember Capone got away with murder.... he was jailed for tax evasion

[PinHead]

These days there is technicaly no fixed term for an apprenticship, with the advent of competency bassed traing and self paced learning options, if the employer wants to push the process along an electrical apprentice can complete and be passed as competent in less than 3 years and that is without any recognition of prior learning component.

Energex are expecting a significant portion of their apprentices to complete and be passed as competent in 2 1/2 years or less, a lot of that time scale is dictated by the availability of the formal training components.

In private industry, it is more likely that apprentices will run the full 4 years, because an apprentice is cheaper labour than a labourer.

As far as what a trade qualifications is...it is a "Certificate level qualification", The notion of an indentured trade as it was 30 or even 20 years ago, where an apprentice learned at the feet of a highly skilled and competent tradesman who viewed the apprentice as his trade legacy and training that apprentice as a debt owed to the trade has long passed.

As far as what apprenticship I completed......a better one than you Finga :P;D ......haha finga..notice..no dirct answer..LOL

OH and as far as "tradies" these days.....Oh hell on average, less than half of the "tradies" you find on building sites have any qualifications at all, appart from a pair of steel caps and a "general safety induction".
AND a "working safely at heights" or an EPW ticket will get you more work than a trade ticket outside the "closed trades" ( plumbing & electrical).

cheers

what a load of drivel that is. Wanna try my trade without the necessary qualifications?

So now you are also an expert of Works Dept now and then and also Energex's apprenticeship setup..amazing.

[Marlin_Mike]

i personally don't give a $hit if Big Brother is watching. I aint breaking any laws so I don't give a toss what he is doing, I am too busy enjoying life.

Mike

[oldboot]

No drivel at all.

the two major requirements and reasons for the closed trade of a "refrigeration mechanic" are the electrical component, because the electrical trade is a closed trade and the environmental controlls because you handle refrigerants which we all know, if they are allowd to escape will cause the sky to fall opon us.

Back a few years ago, when I was wiring service vehicles, there were plenty of blokes working on automotive & transport refrigeration that had no tickets......every other bloke had a set of gages, a pump and a bottle of gass.......I saw sheeties and boilies installing fridge units.......the only reason that stopped was because the government put controlls on handling and possession of refrigerants.

The reason I know about the government departments is that I have friends and relatives in them, I have in the past contracted to some of them and I have been considering training for a third trade.....and have made all the necessary enquiries.....I have actually made it to interview for some of these trades in the last year or two, but there are plenty out there younger, keener and more fearless than me with the same idea.

I thaught about going for a fridge mec position, it would be easier for me than the full ticket electrical trade.....I've been told I could complete in under 18 months......plenty of RPL.....but I've had enough of climbing on roofs and crawling in cielings...and ya still end up a poor relation to a full ticket sparkie..........so no improvement there.

Truck driving is sounding pretty good and it pays almost as well......that is considered a trade these days... most Greyhound drivers and even city council buss drivers have a Cert 3 in transport & logistics....that puts em toe to toe with a plumber or electrician.

If ya think the trade system of old still exists and appart from a plumber or electrician ( the closed trades) ya think ya trade ticket is work much...ya kidding ya self.

cheers

[PinHead]

No drivel at all.

the two major requirements and reasons for the closed trade of a "refrigeration mechanic" are the electrical component, because the electrical trade is a closed trade and the environmental controlls because you handle refrigerants which we all know, if they are allowd to escape will cause the sky to fall opon us.

Back a few years ago, when I was wiring service vehicles, there were plenty of blokes working on automotive & transport refrigeration that had no tickets......every other bloke had a set of gages, a pump and a bottle of gass.......I saw sheeties and boilies installing fridge units.......the only reason that stopped was because the government put controlls on handling and possession of refrigerants.

The reason I know about the government departments is that I have friends and relatives in them, I have in the past contracted to some of them and I have been considering training for a third trade.....and have made all the necessary enquiries.....I have actually made it to interview for some of these trades in the last year or two, but there are plenty out there younger, keener and more fearless than me with the same idea.

I thaught about going for a fridge mec position, it would be easier for me than the full ticket electrical trade.....I've been told I could complete in under 18 months......plenty of RPL.....but I've had enough of climbing on roofs and crawling in cielings...and ya still end up a poor relation to a full ticket sparkie..........so no improvement there.

Truck driving is sounding pretty good and it pays almost as well......that is considered a trade these days... most Greyhound drivers and even city council buss drivers have a Cert 3 in transport & logistics....that puts em toe to toe with a plumber or electrician.

If ya think the trade system of old still exists and appart from a plumber or electrician ( the closed trades) ya think ya trade ticket is work much...ya kidding ya self.

cheers

what a load of crap..a sparkie cannot be licensed to do refrig work..simple as that. a sparkie can get a ticket to install single splits..and boy oh boy..some are finding out the hard way about that lil enterprise. My charge to rectify a sparky or plumbers install stuff up starts at $500 and they have no choice but to pay when the pressure is on.

WOW..you have friends and rellies in Govt Depts and that makes you an expert on them. Have you ever been employed by a Govt Dept? Have you ever sat down and talked to a DG about how a Dept operates etc?
Come on Oh sage..inform and delight us with your vast knowledge..inform us as to why the Deen bros demolished a certain hotel at night..why it needed to be demolished..why at night and who signed off on it..you know about Govt Depts..inform us please.

So please tell us also what wondrous trade qualifications you have?

[oldboot]

Plenty of dual trade qualified sparkie/fridgies out there, just like there are more than a few dual trade sparkie/plumbers...plumber/fridgies...hell I even know a diesel
mechanic/fridgie/sparkie.(all full tickets) he did a little plumbing on the side.........come on mate its not rocket science, if it was you would need a degree to do it.

A good mate of mine does actually have the appropriate degree, he worked his way thru uni working in the family refrigeration business, he's a mechanical engineer, specilaising in refrigeration & ventilation with a side interest in exlposives and computer networking...refrigeration wasn't chalenging enough for him..he works for a multinational these days.

Just because a plumber or sparkie cant do something properly, that is nothing new, they probably could not even be bothered reading the manual that came in the box, let alone downloading the manufacturers installation manual off the web site.

This is just typical of the trades these days, half of em don't know, half of em don't care. fortunately those two have a large overlap..leaving about 30% of tradesmen who are capable of doing the job properly if their employer will let them.

I never claimed to be an expert on government departments, but there are a few very basic facts that are well know to those are at all interested....most of this information every businessman and everbody even half interested in polotics should have a basic understanding of.

As far as current trade structures, every half smart school leaver should have an understanding of this particularly if they are interested in employment in the trades.
And the information is out there in volume..or just on the work sites if you just open your eyes and look.

If you are a qualified trainer (I am), you are required to know how the vocational training system works in particular how the various qualifications and levels interrelate to pass your exam.


As far as the Bel View and the Dean brothers, no i don't know every sworded detail of every dodgy thing that happened in the Bejelkie Peterson era or since.
Cloudland..well that was just a dodgy pile of toxic waste built on a pile of toxic waste.

I do know little about the Dean brothers....some of them used to live in Carina Heights remember, just up the road from where you and I lived as kids....Willard St, from memory....I also know a few people who have had dealings with them.

As for my trade qualifications.

I am not telling because I know that pisses you and finga off. :uhoh:...besides it does not matter, none of them are worth the paper they are written on..not these days any way.

cheers

[castlemaine]

I used to work for the public service, I worked with some great and talented people there. Unfortunately a lot of their talents was wasted there. Don't write all of them off though, public servants can get the best and most up to date training in their field, all paid by the public purse, of course.

Then there were some there that belonged in a home except they'd be rejected.

I was watching Fox TV on holidays some years ago and an American financial advisor gave some advise that in Australian terms ..."Don't jib the ATO or your HECS bill, because they will go to untold ends to reclaim it".

Cheers

[outwide1]

i personally don't give a $hit if Big Brother is watching. I aint breaking any laws so I don't give a toss what he is doing, I am too busy enjoying life.

Mike
It was just brought as thread after seeing it on the news Mike,as people have said why dont they target Harley owners etc.
I to enjoy life and have nothing to hide,simply a thread.
As for alot of other things,the government love people like you whilst there shoving pineapples up your you not what.
Keep relaxing man while there blowing hard earnt tax dollars on crap,it the Australian way.
Mick

[PinHead]

lol ob..I don't really care what your qualifications are..if you are too embarrassed to say that is fine.

As for the sperkies etc doing refrig work..they cannot get the appropriate Artick license..they get a lesser one to do splits..but if they get a leak they then have to pay a fridgie to repair it..many are opting out as they lose a lot of money from that. Plus the outlay for the equipment turns them away from it.

Qualified trainer..yeah Keating I think it was brought in the train the trainer garbage..went and did that..what a waste of time that was.

Nothing dodgy about the Bellevue demolition..had to be done if people knew all the details.

The Govt now employs people as DG's with a fistful of Uni degrees..but no indea of what goes on in the Dept below them..hence the Dept does not run as it should.

Back to big brother watching..there are many ways people buy items without earning the money..lotto wins, gambling wins, inheritance etc..none of these have anything to do with the ATO and nor should they.

The funniest mob to deal with now is the Fair Work Ombudsman..they have no idea what they are talking about..their own staff do not know the legislation.

[mikeaus]

Its a joke the way the government constantly monitor us. The real crooks are the ones at the top.

Like that Craig Thomson MP, paying for blow jobs on the union credit card and getting away with it.

Actually, I should not be so judgmental, there is a easy explanation for all of this.

Someone broke into his home and stole his credit card. Then when to a brothel and payed for a couple of blow jobs. When back to Mr Thompson's house, broke in again and put it back in his wallet.

Is this a gee up or what? The government much think the general public are a bunch of complete mugs. Time for a big clean up I say, get Bob K
atter in, lol.

[finga]

I've never seen anyone ashamed of their trades qualifications before.
I have 3 trades (all electrical based) and proud as punch in obtaining them.

Why does Energex (on page 6 in their apprenticeship booklet available here (http://careers.energex.com.au/getdoc/9c7ef5a9-a565-4179-a6e8-7a12f53647d1/3-1-2-2_Apprentice_Booklet.aspx)) say apprenticeships is for 4 years??

[oldboot]

As far as electricians being fully qualified refrigeration mechanics....yep there are plenty arround, In this day and age multi trade qualified people are quite common.
AND a lot of them are turning arround dual trade qualifications in the same set of indentures and in under 4 years.

Instrument fitters, communications trades, fridge mechainics, motor winders, auto electricians, maintenence fitters are being combined with a full ticket sparkies trade....even plumbers & diesel fitters are combining with a full ticket electrical trade either, doing the two trades at the same time or are being seperately indentured and turning the second trade arround in 18 months 2 years.

I know this because I have been in the market for these jobs.

I can see why...because other wise all of these trades have to have a full ticket sparkie to do even the most simple installations...The employers want a worker that is fully qualified to do the whole job.

Doing the two trades together usually brings the package up to a certificate 4 level qualification.


As far as what energex is doing........For the most part aprenticships are refeered to as being 4 years ( and this is normal), but when you get to interview and speak to the trainers and managers that look after the apprentices and run the programes you will get the real story.

Under the rules set down for competency bassed training the actual imposition of a minimum time on training is suposed to be illegal..after all it is "competency bassed training".

At the moment energex are short of full ticket sparkies and they expect this to continue, so they want their apprentices qualified as soon as they are competent.
To speed the plough, they have gone from block release to a single block of college, shortly after induction and assessment. Quite a few of the big employers are doing this now.

All the major institutional employers are very interested in talking about reduced terms bassed on competency.

As for the old " Train the Trainer" package, Yeh I did that one a long time ago.....its worth nuthin' now and was worth very little back then, it wont give you any credit in the current qualification.... The vocational training system has very much moved on since then.

As for untaxed money not being the tax departments business......think that if you like, but if it comes or goes in large sums they will definitly know all about it.

ALL legal gambling operators pay tax, and lots of it, so the tax department will be very interested in what comes and goes there...gambling used to be a major source of laundered money.

As far as inheritances.......all outstanding taxes have to be paid by the estate before the money is passed on and the banks will be reporting any large transfeers of funds.....In fact the banks wont release funds untill they are provided with ALL the paperwork....In fact if you fail to provide ALL the appropriate tax paperwork, the bank is required to remit tax payment direct to the tax department at the full top marginal tax rate...the tax department will know all about every cent of inheritance and mostly will already have their share before you do........been there done that recently.

If you were intetrested in the news, the tax department went thu the racing industry like a dose of salts a few years ago..and lots of people went down or eneded up with large bills.

Anybody remember "Brisbane Livestock Transport"..the tax department fixed him up real good..

The reason the feds, customs and the tax dpeartment watch money so damn carefully is that there are so many crims and people who think they are smarter than the government out there and it costs the government and you and me immense amounts of money every year.

ALL criminal activities at some point come down to money.....and for those criminal activities to function or be of benifit to the perpetrators they have to be able to move and spend their ill gotten gains....so ya cant shift more than $10 000 in a single lump without it being reported...and these days they want to know where it has come from and where it is going to, and why.

Which brings us back to boats......boats can be a bit of an inegma, the whole boating industry is still like the wild west, far less details are kept about boats than about road vehicles and there is no simple way of establishing the value if all boats.
Boats can also be easily moved arround and don't have to remain at a given address on land.

OH crims and tax cheats love boats, and the tax department know this.

OH and if you have a problem becasue you know less than me...thats not my problem :P

cheers

[PinHead]

As far as electricians being fully qualified refrigeration mechanics....yep there are plenty arround, In this day and age multi trade qualified people are quite common.
AND a lot of them are turning arround dual trade qualifications in the same set of indentures and in under 4 years.

Instrument fitters, communications trades, fridge mechainics, motor winders, auto electricians, maintenence fitters are being combined with a full ticket sparkies trade....even plumbers & diesel fitters are combining with a full ticket electrical trade either, doing the two trades at the same time or are being seperately indentured and turning the second trade arround in 18 months 2 years.

I know this because I have been in the market for these jobs.

I can see why...because other wise all of these trades have to have a full ticket sparkie to do even the most simple installations...The employers want a worker that is fully qualified to do the whole job.

Doing the two trades together usually brings the package up to a certificate 4 level qualification.


As far as what energex is doing........For the most part aprenticships are refeered to as being 4 years ( and this is normal), but when you get to interview and speak to the trainers and managers that look after the apprentices and run the programes you will get the real story.

Under the rules set down for competency bassed training the actual imposition of a minimum time on training is suposed to be illegal..after all it is "competency bassed training".

At the moment energex are short of full ticket sparkies and they expect this to continue, so they want their apprentices qualified as soon as they are competent.
To speed the plough, they have gone from block release to a single block of college, shortly after induction and assessment. Quite a few of the big employers are doing this now.

All the major institutional employers are very interested in talking about reduced terms bassed on competency.

As for the old " Train the Trainer" package, Yeh I did that one a long time ago.....its worth nuthin' now and was worth very little back then, it wont give you any credit in the current qualification.... The vocational training system has very much moved on since then.

As for untaxed money not being the tax departments business......think that if you like, but if it comes or goes in large sums they will definitly know all about it.

ALL legal gambling operators pay tax, and lots of it, so the tax department will be very interested in what comes and goes there...gambling used to be a major source of laundered money.

As far as inheritances.......all outstanding taxes have to be paid by the estate before the money is passed on and the banks will be reporting any large transfeers of funds.....In fact the banks wont release funds untill they are provided with ALL the paperwork....In fact if you fail to provide ALL the appropriate tax paperwork, the bank is required to remit tax payment direct to the tax department at the full top marginal tax rate...the tax department will know all about every cent of inheritance and mostly will already have their share before you do........been there done that recently.

If you were intetrested in the news, the tax department went thu the racing industry like a dose of salts a few years ago..and lots of people went down or eneded up with large bills.

Anybody remember "Brisbane Livestock Transport"..the tax department fixed him up real good..

The reason the feds, customs and the tax dpeartment watch money so damn carefully is that there are so many crims and people who think they are smarter than the government out there and it costs the government and you and me immense amounts of money every year.

ALL criminal activities at some point come down to money.....and for those criminal activities to function or be of benifit to the perpetrators they have to be able to move and spend their ill gotten gains....so ya cant shift more than $10 000 in a single lump without it being reported...and these days they want to know where it has come from and where it is going to, and why.

Which brings us back to boats......boats can be a bit of an inegma, the whole boating industry is still like the wild west, far less details are kept about boats than about road vehicles and there is no simple way of establishing the value if all boats.
Boats can also be easily moved arround and don't have to remain at a given address on land.

OH crims and tax cheats love boats, and the tax department know this.

OH and if you have a problem becasue you know less than me...thats not my problem :P

cheers

thank you very much for the laugh OB

[pescados]

How much you earn, and how much tax you pay IS very much THEIR business.....and there will always be those who think the rules don't apply to them and they should not pay their fair share.

If you think our tax department is intrusive...just thank your lucky starts you don't live in most other developed countries.

cheers
I would think the Tax dept has a fair idea. And what is a fair share? ever worked out the amount you pay ?? you be very surprised.
Mind you the fat cats in Canberra are very much like companies dodging taxes, that's why workers are ripped off to the hilt.

You might not be aware but Australia is in the top 3 most taxed countries.
Work it out, tax on earnings, gst, tax of food, tax on fuel just to name a few.

[Oh Gee]

You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber...1. Hots on the left 2. Cold in on the right. 3. Sh1t flows downhill.

[PinHead]

You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber...1. Hots on the left 2. Cold in on the right. 3. Sh1t flows downhill.

LOL..classic

[finga]

As far as electricians being fully qualified refrigeration mechanics....yep there are plenty arround, In this day and age multi trade qualified people are quite common.
AND a lot of them are turning arround dual trade qualifications in the same set of indentures and in under 4 years.

Instrument fitters, communications trades, fridge mechainics, motor winders, auto electricians, maintenence fitters are being combined with a full ticket sparkies trade....even plumbers & diesel fitters are combining with a full ticket electrical trade either, doing the two trades at the same time or are being seperately indentured and turning the second trade arround in 18 months 2 years.

I know this because I have been in the market for these jobs.
cheers
Which job?? They're worlds apart. Are you looking for an apprenticeship??
I would have thought a bloke with your qualifications and experience and skills and knowledge would be able to stand on any corner and yell...Oi I want a job....and they all call running with the offers.
Actually with all the experts you talk there should not be a problem getting a job. They should all be pleased to give you a job or refer you to one of their prized clients seeing you know everything about everything.

Why are you looking at completing an apprenticeship?? You've already told us you have a better trade then me.
I'd have not a problem in the world getting a good job if I could work.
So what is your trade seeing it's hard to find work??
It might save somebody the bother of learning it....wasting time so to speak.

[PinHead]

Don't worry about it finga..Ob's problem is that he grew up in a dump..low socio economic area and has struggled to face reality and get out of that mindset..hnce the need to appear to be better than others..let him go if it makes him feel good about himself.

[oldboot]

Same dump you grew up in pin head.

Don't get me started about why I want to change the industry I work in and why I'd be looking for an apprenticship...and yes I could easily get work in the industry I have been working in for the last 20 years.......but it has a lot to do with the closed shop, restrictive trade practice that is the electrical industry in Australia.

In this country, you can have a masters degree in electrical engineering with experience designing, specifying and managing electrical projects, you can even own an electrical contracting company...but if you want to get a full electrical licence and actually do the work, you need to serve an apprenticship........AND they wont talk to you about RPL or course exemptions till you have indentures signed.

In this country it is illegal to put 3 wires in a plug without a licence, where other countries you can wire a whole house with no electrical qualifications.....AND the safety statistics here are no better.

cheers

[finga]

Same dump you grew up in pin head.
The same dump Greg and Bruce grew up in and look at what they have achieved.

Don't get me started about why I want to change the industry I work in and why I'd be looking for an apprenticship...and yes I could easily get work in the industry I have been working in for the last 20 years.......but it has a lot to do with the closed shop, restrictive trade practice that is the electrical industry in Australia.

In this country, you can have a masters degree in electrical engineering with experience designing, specifying and managing electrical projects, you can even own an electrical contracting company...but if you want to get a full electrical licence and actually do the work, you need to serve an apprenticship........AND they wont talk to you about RPL or course exemptions till you have indentures signed.

In this country it is illegal to put 3 wires in a plug without a licence, where other countries you can wire a whole house with no electrical qualifications.....AND the safety statistics here are no better.

cheers
There's a reason for that Oldboot.
The world is full of experts who have not got a bloody clue.
There is a reason why the electrical trades is one of the hardest to complete
There is a reason why there are huge penalties for unlicensed work
There are reasons why appliances have security screws in them
There are reasons why there are house fires and it's the same reason I used to have to sort through a home after a fire to figure out what happened. The reasons usually are all of the above.
Nobody can know the electrical industry without serving an apprenticeship before hand and then after about 20-30 years they may know something....but no where near everything.
Nobody can learn the manual skills required to be an electrician without serving an apprenticeship.
There are reasons why the umbrella of electrical trades is be broken down in specialities. Nobody can have the knowledge base or skills to carry out every duty involving electricity.
Could an Instrument fitter be able to change an insulator on an 11kv line while it's alive or could the bloke who changes that 11kV insulator be able to terminate a 66kV cable going into a substation or could any of them bung a 10A 3 phase outlet in the Darryl Lee shop??

...... and dead is for a bloody long time. Electricity+person=usually dead

I started my apprenticeship in 1983. I have 3 trades within the Electrical umbrella and still know bugger all about the electrical trades.
I still have to consult with people with the relavent knowledge base.
You cannot find out about everything by googling.

You can get restricted electricians tickets to carry out duties such as a straight hot-water swap over and for testing and tagging and for bunging a plug on and they're restricted for a reason. You cannot know the trade without doing an apprenticeship.
The same applies to any bloody trade.
Greg has sited a classical example of how these restricted tickets can be a pain in the posterior for the consumer.
An electrician has a restricted fridgy ticket to install splits. If they have a leak or something is not right they have to call in Greg. Greg has the poos for been called in on short notice when he probably has better things to do so he charges a minimum of $500 to go and have a gander. That would be minimum.
Who pays that?? Does it come out of the sparky's pocket?? Nope.
In my books it's not worth the hassle to have a restricted ticket.
Just call Greg in from the word go. He does his bit. I'd do my bit and the world is a happy place.
Another example is a plumber doing a hotwater change-over. What if there is old wiring there. What size is it?? Does it test OK??? Is the circuit protection OK and appropriate?? Would he notice the burnt fuses or breakers??
Too many questions he may not know the answer to. What does he do??
Separate trades....separate skills.

Easy solution for yourself to get an electrical trade under your belt is move out of the country. Get a job in one of these countries where no qualifications are needed (where are they??) and move back after 6 or 7 years. Prior knowledge and experience may get you there.

Yes. You can own an electrical contracting business without having an electricians license BUT you have to have a qualified electrician nominated to say they're the ones who will be responsible for the work.
Can a structural engineer weld a pressure vessel and have it tested?? Can a mechanical engineer build a 150 ton crane and have it certified?? So why should an electrical engineer be able to wire up anything at all unless they have the qualifications??

As a side note I'm also qualified for doing communications (another one of those easy to get certificates on the wall) up to and including fibre optics. Would I consider working in that industry?? Nope. I simply do not know enough nor have the practical skills to carry out that job. I actually had an Austel license but never used it commercially. Not worth the hassle.

Personally I can see why you cannot get an apprenticeship within the electrical trades. It's attitude.
Would I ever had employed you??? Not a hope in hell.
Actually I may have given you a job but not for long. Especially not after you telling me how to do my job

And you probably would have harped on about critical length.

Another example of Big Brother watching?? Yes and thank God for that.

[Feral]

Taxman would do better going for a drive around the boat ramps and taking down all the names of company cars, utes and 4wd's towing boat trailers and matching that against fringe benefits and log book declarations.

[tunaticer]

What job are you after OldBoot? You might have a job finding a job where your qualifications and IQ are not greater than the prospective employer.

Why did you leave the Govt job you had?

[oldboot]

The world is full of experts, lots of them are electricians and they simply don't have a clue, and wont be told.

The electrical trade is syetematicaly pulling the various allied trades under its controll, so the electricains sphere of influence and over confidence continues to grow.

most of them are barely able.....even if they can be bothered......to do the basic work of an electrician to the letter of the regulations. Then they take work off the allied trades, by pulling it into electrical umberella contracts that the reast of us cant bid on....then do the work they don't understand at a very very low standard.

Come on if ya cant install a simple single split system air con after you have done the required traing course and been passed as competent and issued a licence, ya musn't be very clever or interested in doing the job properly.

For over 20 years I have worked with a sat in training courses with electricians and the majority of them ARE dull, lazy and wont be told, even by their piers....... but they still live and work under the mis apprehension that they are smarter and better than everybody else.

Lots of them cant even calculate voltage drop using ohms law, hey Finga.

Lots of them have very little understanding of "electrical principles" as taught outside of the "electrical trade" and depend on the standards and regulations.....which they often chose to ignore and usually don't now as well as they should.

The electrical safety authorities have proven by survey, that a very large proportion of electricians do not even undestand the MEN earthing system....a key pank in electrical safety.
This I was told on a skills maintenence course for full ticket sparkies, and shown the document.

This is why there is now a skills maintenance requirement for licence renewal in QLD, lots of the older electricains have either failed to renew or cheat by getting one of their relatives or apprentices to do the on line exam for them...I know because I've been told to my face by those that have done it.

Don't try and tell me that because they have an electrical trade qualification that the work will be tradesman like and compliant.

Just about every day that I walk onto a work site, I see things done by "full ticket electricians" that are non-compliant, not nit picky marginal stuff, but dogs ball obviously wrong.

I know it was done by an electrician because they have either just done it, the customer knew who did it or it has a tag on it with their licence number on it, and full ticket licence numbers don't have an R in front of them.

The most stupid thing that ever happened was to allow electricians to self inspect.

Don't try and tell me that the electrical establishment are the protectors of public safety.......they are the protectors of their own self interest.

Untill recently New Zeland, that works under the same standards, uses the same hardware and electrical system design had a very much more flexible attitude and allowed private individuals to do certain work.........their safety record was in fact better than ours.

In the UK and europe, many appliances come without a plug fitted, the purchaser commonly fits the plug. In the UK, you can wire you whole house yourself as long as it passes inspection all is fine. They don't seem to be having a rash of electricutions and fires.

As for the "critical length" thing.
In every field of material science, it is understood that when testing materials you have to have a sample that is big enough to provide a reliable result and not influenced by outside factors.
In electrical wire, that means the piece has to be long enough.

Sorry you could not find any information on that on google, and no one mentioned that in your electrical trade.
But you would have to be pretty thick to not grasp the reasons why, and then keep arguing about it.

Finally I am sick to death of being picked on by a couple of idiots who are only motivated by their own ego and the threat that there is some one who knows more than they do and is happy to share it freely.

If you did not come to a forum with the object of a helpfull, free and amicable exchange of information ...WHY ARE YOU HERE.

I apopogise to others who's benifit and enjoyment is ruined by these idiots, every time I try to post something usefull or informative.

cheers

As far as where I would get an apprenticship...I would not be taking one up with a small or medium electrical contracting companies unless I knew their standards to be high ( almost unknown)......because dangerous work methods, ignorance and straight out flouting of the standards & regulations is the norm...ya don't have to go far for proof, because so many electricians will proudly tell you.....we don't bother with that, or no one bothers doing the other thing.

I have however been asured that If I want to enter the electrical trades, the labotomy is optional, however having one is suposed to increase career prospects.

[PinHead]

The world is full of experts, lots of them are electricians and they simply don't have a clue, and wont be told.

The electrical trade is syetematicaly pulling the various allied trades under its controll, so the electricains sphere of influence and over confidence continues to grow.

most of them are barely able.....even if they can be bothered......to do the basic work of an electrician to the letter of the regulations. Then they take work off the allied trades, by pulling it into electrical umberella contracts that the reast of us cant bid on....then do the work they don't understand at a very very low standard.

Come on if ya cant install a simple single split system air con after you have done the required traing course and been passed as competent and issued a licence, ya musn't be very clever or interested in doing the job properly.

For over 20 years I have worked with a sat in training courses with electricians and the majority of them ARE dull, lazy and wont be told, even by their piers....... but they still live and work under the mis apprehension that they are smarter and better than everybody else.

Lots of them cant even calculate voltage drop using ohms law, hey Finga.

Lots of them have very little understanding of "electrical principles" as taught outside of the "electrical trade" and depend on the standards and regulations.....which they often chose to ignore and usually don't now as well as they should.

The electrical safety authorities have proven by survey, that a very large proportion of electricians do not even undestand the MEN earthing system....a key pank in electrical safety.
This I was told on a skills maintenence course for full ticket sparkies, and shown the document.

This is why there is now a skills maintenance requirement for licence renewal in QLD, lots of the older electricains have either failed to renew or cheat by getting one of their relatives or apprentices to do the on line exam for them...I know because I've been told to my face by those that have done it.

Don't try and tell me that because they have an electrical trade qualification that the work will be tradesman like and compliant.

Just about every day that I walk onto a work site, I see things done by "full ticket electricians" that are non-compliant, not nit picky marginal stuff, but dogs ball obviously wrong.

I know it was done by an electrician because they have either just done it, the customer knew who did it or it has a tag on it with their licence number on it, and full ticket licence numbers don't have an R in front of them.

The most stupid thing that ever happened was to allow electricians to self inspect.

Don't try and tell me that the electrical establishment are the protectors of public safety.......they are the protectors of their own self interest.

Untill recently New Zeland, that works under the same standards, uses the same hardware and electrical system design had a very much more flexible attitude and allowed private individuals to do certain work.........their safety record was in fact better than ours.

In the UK and europe, many appliances come without a plug fitted, the purchaser commonly fits the plug. In the UK, you can wire you whole house yourself as long as it passes inspection all is fine. They don't seem to be having a rash of electricutions and fires.

As for the "critical length" thing.
In every field of material science, it is understood that when testing materials you have to have a sample that is big enough to provide a reliable result and not influenced by outside factors.
In electrical wire, that means the piece has to be long enough.

Sorry you could not find any information on that on google, and no one mentioned that in your electrical trade.
But you would have to be pretty thick to not grasp the reasons why, and then keep arguing about it.

Finally I am sick to death of being picked on by a couple of idiots who are only motivated by their own ego and the threat that there is some one who knows more than they do and is happy to share it freely.

If you did not come to a forum with the object of a helpfull, free and amicable exchange of information ...WHY ARE YOU HERE.

I apopogise to others who's benifit and enjoyment is ruined by these idiots, every time I try to post something usefull or informative.

cheers

As far as where I would get an apprenticship...I would not be taking one up with a small or medium electrical contracting companies unless I knew their standards to be high ( almost unknown)......because dangerous work methods, ignorance and straight out flouting of the standards & regulations is the norm...ya don't have to go far for proof, because so many electricians will proudly tell you.....we don't bother with that, or no one bothers doing the other thing.

I have however been asured that If I want to enter the electrical trades, the labotomy is optional, however having one is suposed to increase career prospects.

OB..if you are going to supply and install a 15kw ducted system what is the first thing you would do ? Then perhaps you could tell us all how to do the job..how about it is in a small shop with the cond unit on the roof. I would be interested to hear how you would do it.

[Vitamin Sea]

Q Build employ heaps of tradesmen..they have theirown building section that tenders for work.

Tradesmen with the State Govt are classed as day labour. Prior to compulsory super they were not eligible for the State Govt super scheme or otherl urks nd perks such as flexi time.

Close but not quite correct Greg, QBuild are not permitted to tender for work in the open market.
Yes, there are prob 2000+ or there abouts tradies across the state.
Flexi time is under the Public Service award (act), tradespersons do not come under this award.
Super was made available to field staff in about 1980 or there abouts, don't know if that coinsides with compulsory super.

In days gone by the tradies were regarded in a way as the poor cousins, however this is not the case anymore, in most cases a tradie has to drop wages to come into an office position.

Some previous comments (not from you) about completing sparkie or fridgie trades in 2-2 1/2 years is rubbish, have seen some bright boys complete in 3 1/2 years though on the competency system.

Have been on both sides of the fence.

Cheers

Bill

[PinHead]

Bill..I was working for Q Build in 1984..no super for tradies at that time. I was working out of the Cribb St workshops.

I believe they do tender for Govt work Bill.

[choppa]

Sh%%6,,,,,,,, i've run out of chips

[finga]

2kg of hot chips here for $10.
Or one of the supermarkets chains has 4 packs of Smith's chips for $6 Chop.

[Vitamin Sea]

Bill..I was working for Q Build in 1984..no super for tradies at that time. I was working out of the Cribb St workshops.

I believe they do tender for Govt work Bill.

Hey Greg

1984, so was I.
I got into super 29/04/85, so it musn't have been far away from being offered when you were there, I came out of my time in '84.
Cribb St is now the Transit centre, I'm there now:-X

You are correct, we used to tender on projects up until about '93-'94, somewhere around there, that came to an end when Joe Blo contractor (s) made a complaint to up "there" if you know where I'm talking about, bitching that they were losing work to the PS, no more tendering afer that, still in effect now.

First hand experience, trust me::)

Cheers

PS: still gotta talk to you about the young fella:-X

[oldboot]

OB..if you are going to supply and install a 15kw ducted system what is the first thing you would do ? Then perhaps you could tell us all how to do the job..how about it is in a small shop with the cond unit on the roof. I would be interested to hear how you would do it.

Im not going to waste time telling you how to do it.

But the first two things I would do is

1. establish that there is sufficient electrical supply to support the air con unit in question in addition to the existing load....this would require a peak demand calculation.

2. establish that the building structure is capable of supporting the equipment to be installed...this may require the input of a strucrual engineer.

[PinHead]

Im not going to waste time telling you how to do it.

But the first two things I would do is

1. establish that there is sufficient electrical supply to support the air con unit in question in addition to the existing load....this would require a peak demand calculation. Let the sparkie do that..not my problem.

2. establish that the building structure is capable of supporting the equipment to be installed...this may require the input of a strucrual engineer. a what? for a cond unit that only weighs about 100kg.

the correct answer is..for a job of that size..make sure you have the appropriate BSA License first

anyway, dop't stress over it OB..you stick to wiring the AV stuff and I'll do the air cond.

[oldboot]

Some previous comments (not from you) about completing sparkie or fridgie trades in 2-2 1/2 years is rubbish, have seen some bright boys complete in 3 1/2 years though on the competency system.

Cheers

Bill

Sorry but I have had it from several sources that is is possible and is being done.

1. a mate that I have known since we were teenagers, is a trainer and assessor teaching electrical apprentices....I spoke to him before I even considered the matter.

2. People who manage apprentices and whom I have faced in interviews were quite clear on the matter

3. a couple of people I have met or know who have done it....I even know a plumber/gas fitter who had himself apprenticed to to an electrician his family business was employing.

Some bright people without similar trade experience are completing all sorts apprenticships in arround the 3 1/2 years.

The 3 1/2 years is not all that hard when you consider that some apprentices dont get their first block release untill after 6 months after they start......If the employer starts training in week 1 ya six months ahead already.

Then an employer does all of what was once block release, in on single block starting at week 1, that shifts things along no end.....Energex now does this, as do many of the mine related employers.

Those comming from allide trades, with plenty of RPL, relivent trade experience and use of self paced learning can easily complete in 2 to 2.5 years.... but that is dependent on the employer pushing the matter and scheduling the training.....there is a much better chance of that when the employer is acredited to do some or all of the training in house.

Employers like, Energex, QR, komatsu and Hasting Derring (Catepillar) do some or all of their training in house and or have preferential arrangements with other RTO's.
Every apprentice that starts with Hastings Derring, completes, heavy vehicle driving, working at heights, EWP, forklift and crane tickets & can still finish ahead of time.

Training is moving ahead and there have been some changes in the last year or two.

Remember too that there are heaps of mature aged people with relivent trade experience and qualifications applying for these jobs.....I've sat trade tests and been in interview ques with these guys.......the employers want these people because they are cheaper to train and can be competent as tradesmen faster.


cheers

[oldboot]

the correct answer is..for a job of that size..make sure you have the appropriate BSA License first

anyway, dop't stress over it OB..you stick to wiring the AV stuff and I'll do the air cond.

1. Now ya would not even be pitching the job or even driving arround in a van with "air conditioning installed" written on the side, if ya don't have the correct licences would ya.

2. so you would sell a customer a system and contract the work without knowing that it was possible to get sufficient supply.

3. 100Kg for the equipment, pluss 2 times 120Kg for a pair of installers plus 30Kg for their tool boxes and ya looking at well over a quarter of a tonne......there are plenty of roofs that would not be considered safe with that.

cheers

[finga]

Hey Oldboot. One thing I cannot work out is with all your mates and all these contacts how come your looking for work?
Why hasn't any of them offered a job or apprenticeship to you or found one for you?? Trainers and assessors have contacts. Lots of contacts.
You've been to interviews but they don't give you an apprenticeship or job. Why??
Also...how come you want to be in an industry so full of corruption and stupidity??



3. 100Kg for the equipment, pluss 2 times 120Kg for a pair of installers plus 30Kg for their tool boxes and ya looking at well over a quarter of a tonne......there are plenty of roofs that would not be considered safe with that.

cheers
Bloody hell Greg. Time to diet I reckon. 120kg fridgy's working all day in a roof?? Or they must all simply be big fit b@stards lugging all those 100kg units about. Built like David Taylor so to speak...(but David, the nancy boy, Taylor is only 120 odd kg's isn't he??)

Do you carry a tool box into the roof Greg??
I know I've never carried a toolbox into a roof...but I was only a dumb sparky.
I don't think I'd be able to get a 30kg tolbox into the roof when I think about it.


As for electrical work in Great Britain (or where-ever the hell you said) Googleboot.
What work is allowable with no license and can, say you, come and put a power point in for me??
What has to happen to a house before it is sold if any electrical work has been done by an unlicensed person?
Can you work commercially as an electrician with no license any where in the British Isles??

I'm still buggered if I can find any information about critical length. I would really appreciate any referencing towards the subject so I may understand it. Any at all. Books, links....anything.

PS: I waiting for an email to confirm the time my nephew took to complete his fridgy apprenticeship.
He was the quickest to complete it in the NT.
He has now completed his overhead linesman's apprenticeship (top of the state) and now starting his electrical apprenticeship with a supply authority.
I should have asked him how long do they expect for the really smart ones, and the really smart ones with lots of prior knowledge, to complete it I suppose.

Sometimes I'm really glad to have big brother watching over us

Did you get any chips Choppa???
I got 4 packs yesterday and a carton of beer.

[choppa]

Did you get any chips Choppa???
I got 4 packs yesterday and a carton of beer.

Mrs Choppa got em mate,,, i was too busy helping Chop Jr rewire the motor in his electric reel,,,, it kept on overheating when under stress,,, so we installed a fan in the system to keep it cool

choppa

[finga]

Some previous comments (not from you) about completing sparkie or fridgie trades in 2-2 1/2 years is rubbish, have seen some bright boys complete in 3 1/2 years though on the competency system.
Cheers
Bill
So what's your exposure and experiences with apprentices if I may ask Bill??
What knowledge or experience do you base this opinion on??

[Feral]

And how long is their apprenticeship??

Which apprenticeship did you do?

Trades have always been Cert III qualifications, since the AQF framework was introduced.

Apprenticeships these days are rated on when you get the skills, not how long you have been holding the nail bag for someone else. It is possible to do some apprenticeships under some systems in as little as 2 years.

But I agree tradies have priced themselves out of a lot of work, just look at how many handy men are around working in the sub $3k market (where builders licences are not required). It is only the "closed shop" trades where there are legal requirements that are holding their own. Even they are being eroded by common sense changes, albeit they are only small. EG we do all our own test and tagging in house now, sent our blokes along to TAFE to do the relevant course. Only get the electrician in once a year to do the RCD's.

Equally amusing is the amount of tradesmen touting themselves as technicians, to be a technician requires a cert VI level qualification. Which can be achieved through vocational training, but usually requires formal study, as the management criteria are hard to meet for RPL'ing on the job.

[finga]

T
Apprenticeships these days are rated on when you get the skills, not how long you have been holding the nail bag for someone else. It is possible to do some apprenticeships under some systems in as little as 2 years..
What apprenticeships would they be?
What systems would they be??
Do they have any prior knowledge, and if so, what??

[PinHead]

Trades have always been Cert III qualifications, since the AQF framework was introduced.

Apprenticeships these days are rated on when you get the skills, not how long you have been holding the nail bag for someone else. It is possible to do some apprenticeships under some systems in as little as 2 years.

But I agree tradies have priced themselves out of a lot of work, just look at how many handy men are around working in the sub $3k market (where builders licences are not required). It is only the "closed shop" trades where there are legal requirements that are holding their own. Even they are being eroded by common sense changes, albeit they are only small. EG we do all our own test and tagging in house now, sent our blokes along to TAFE to do the relevant course. Only get the electrician in once a year to do the RCD's.

Equally amusing is the amount of tradesmen touting themselves as technicians, to be a technician requires a cert VI level qualification. Which can be achieved through vocational training, but usually requires formal study, as the management criteria are hard to meet for RPL'ing on the job.

not even classed a refrig mechs any more..Cert III in Engineering - Mechanical Trade.

There is talk now that the Govt may introduce the banning of air cond units coming pre charged..only have a charge of nitrogen in them. That will make all those split licenses worthless if that does happen. That does not worry me as I am not actively involved in the domestic market except for people I know. The other change being mooted is no more flares on units..all solder joints..yippee for that one.

[outwide1]

Mrs Choppa got em mate,,, i was too busy helping Chop Jr rewire the motor in his electric reel,,,, it kept on overheating when under stress,,, so we installed a fan in the system to keep it cool

choppa
I dont think there hearing you Chop.
This thread has gone wild and so far away from what i originally started.
Cheers Mick.

[Muddy Toes]

Mrs Choppa got em mate,,, i was too busy helping Chop Jr rewire the motor in his electric reel,,,, it kept on overheating when under stress,,, so we installed a fan in the system to keep it cool

choppa
So i suppose your a fully qualified reel mechanic technician professor electrician with the appropriate training from a RTO without using any RPL to obtain your Cert III in this highly specified field?

[finga]

So i suppose your a fully qualified reel mechanic technician professor electrician with the appropriate training from a RTO without using any RPL to obtain your Cert III in this highly specified field?
Chop???????
http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-045.gif

But I mean that with the utmost respect that you deserve matey ;)

You'll have to tell of some more of the adventures of Chop Jnr matey. I loved them :)
When do you go back to work Muddy??

[Muddy Toes]

I go back on the 15th of Jan mate.......I'm predicting there is a good chance that it's the exact date the weather will become good again.

[theoldlegend]

Yeah, I read something from a weather forecaster that fine weather is expected from mid January.

Winds 5 - 10, seas smooth - slight. Mondays to Fridays.


TOL

[webby]

They are watching you everywhere;D

[oldboot]

Hey Oldboot. One thing I cannot work out is with all your mates and all these contacts how come your looking for work?
Why hasn't any of them offered a job or apprenticeship to you or found one for you?? Trainers and assessors have contacts. Lots of contacts.
You've been to interviews but they don't give you an apprenticeship or job. Why??
Also...how come you want to be in an industry so full of corruption and stupidity??


.

Well mate...I'm a bit fussy about who I work for..if I am going to take on an aprenticship due to complete in my early fifties, I want a quality employer with some decent prospects and pay rates or I simply wont bother.

Ya think I want to yank wires arround ceilings the rest of my life....na forget it.

By the time you narrow it down to employers that I consider acceptable and will take 40 pluss year old apprentices..that narrows it down to a handfull of employers.

Considering all the technicians out there in their 30s and 40s who have nothing to fix, becaise its all thrown away when it breaks or who's jobs have been de-skilled and taken over by electricians......there are plenty of people similar to me with the same idea....

And why would I want to join the corrupt and stupid electrical trade
very simple.......because of the deskilling & increasing strangle hold the electrical lobby have on the allied electrical trades, ya realy don't have a choice....if ya want to continue in a field related to the electrical field you either have to be content with being paid and treated as little better than a labourer or join "the dark brotherhood" and become a "prince of darkness".

Make no mistake, it is very much a deal with the devil.

I have been told that if I act dum and develop a vacant stare, I should get by OK.

Don't worry, I have other offers...and I have accepted one..it will do for now.

As for the load required to support 2 installers.....you will note that all industrial ladders are rated at 150Kg or higher.....because this is accepted as the standard for a single workman and the tools he may carry.

And there are plenty of tradesmen out there walking arround on roofs that easily weigh the 120Kg

As for 30Kg of tools..what does a colt22 oxy rig weigh..that may be needed to sweat off some pipes...ad to that a swaging tool, a tube bender, some spanners and probably a decent sized power drill

As for the "critical length"..keep looking...but google wont help you.
You could even read " Materials, their properties, testing and selection. by P.A.Sheedy" but ya wont find it there either , because it does not cover the prepartion of samples, or detal exactly how its done.

But anybody with an interest in materials testing will understand the principle of a sample phyicaly large enough to produce accurate test results.


cheers

[PinHead]

Well mate...I'm a bit fussy about who I work for..if I am going to take on an aprenticship due to complete in my early fifties, I want a quality employer with some decent prospects and pay rates or I simply wont bother.

Ya think I want to yank wires arround ceilings the rest of my life....na forget it.

By the time you narrow it down to employers that I consider acceptable and will take 40 pluss year old apprentices..that narrows it down to a handfull of employers.

Considering all the technicians out there in their 30s and 40s who have nothing to fix, becaise its all thrown away when it breaks or who's jobs have been de-skilled and taken over by electricians......there are plenty of people similar to me with the same idea....

And why would I want to join the corrupt and stupid electrical trade
very simple.......because of the deskilling & increasing strangle hold the electrical lobby have on the allied electrical trades, ya realy don't have a choice....if ya want to continue in a field related to the electrical field you either have to be content with being paid and treated as little better than a labourer or join "the dark brotherhood" and become a "prince of darkness".

Make no mistake, it is very much a deal with the devil.

I have been told that if I act dum and develop a vacant stare, I should get by OK.

Don't worry, I have other offers...and I have accepted one..it will do for now.

As for the load required to support 2 installers.....you will note that all industrial ladders are rated at 150Kg or higher.....because this is accepted as the standard for a single workman and the tools he may carry.

And there are plenty of tradesmen out there walking arround on roofs that easily weigh the 120Kg

As for 30Kg of tools..what does a colt22 oxy rig weigh..that may be needed to sweat off some pipes...ad to that a swaging tool, a tube bender, some spanners and probably a decent sized power drill

As for the "critical length"..keep looking...but google wont help you.
You could even read " Materials, their properties, testing and selection. by P.A.Sheedy" but ya wont find it there either , because it does not cover the prepartion of samples, or detal exactly how its done.

But anybody with an interest in materials testing will understand the principle of a sample phyicaly large enough to produce accurate test results.


cheers

good luck with getting an electrical apprenticeship OB..I really do hope you get one cos by your comments you would not do too well in the refrig/air cond game.

[ThePinkPanther]

They mus be paying cash, because I always thought the tax department has a record of all bank transactions over $5000.00 sent from the banks.

Nah Mate, I am 99.9% sure that it is only for overseas transactions in excess of $10,000.
If you send or receive cash above this figure the Reserve Bank passes it onto the Reserve Bank.

Doesn't apply internally in Oz though I guess the ATO can always do a random check of anybody's account.

[ThePinkPanther]

Nah Mate, the only time a record of transactions is passed from the Reserve Bank to the ATO is for anything above $10,000 either going out or coming in from overseas!

Doesn't apply to any such transactions made within Australia.

[choppa]

Nah Mate, I am 99.9% sure that it is only for overseas transactions in excess of $10,000.
If you send or receive cash above this figure the Reserve Bank passes it onto the Reserve Bank.

Doesn't apply internally in Oz though I guess the ATO can always do a random check of anybody's account.

close but not close enough,,,, the "$10,000.00 Cash Transaction Act" is governed by AUSTRAC, and it has been in force for donkey ages with little adjustments,,,,,

this act requires any person (retailer) who receives a total of $10k or over for any purchase within (i think) 30 days must fill out the relevant form and send it into them

now for the stupidity of this act,,,, walk into your bank and deposit OR withdraw 10k,,, no form

walk into a bank's accreditated agent (Post Office for example) and you must sign off of the form if you are depositing 10k or over?????

walk into a car dealership for example and place $9,999.00 down as deposit today,,, come back in 30 days with an extra $2.00 in cash,,, form must be completed BY LAW

the act was going to be part of the reply i placed in my thread about "Identity Theft",,, the questions that are placed in the form are harmless enough,,, BUT it really depends on who fills the form out,,, as in most cases it's done via the retailer,, you just sign it,,,, but to anyone wishing to use your identity and access $$$ from you,,, it's not hard to do

http://www.austrac.gov.au/2a.html

choppa

[choppa]

Nah Mate, the only time a record of transactions is passed from the Reserve Bank to the ATO is for anything above $10,000 either going out or coming in from overseas!

Doesn't apply to any such transactions made within Australia.

Pink Panther,,, i just replied to your prior answer,,,, your wrong on this one buddy,,,, i haven't a clue how many of these transactions i have had in the years of being a Finance Manager,,,, but its a %^&$ lot