Review of jennies ban ?

[brush]

HAVE YOU READ THAT MINISTER WALLACE IS ASKING FOR FEED- BACK FROM FISHERS ON OVERTURNING THE 120 YEAR BAN ON THE TAKING OF JENNIES???
SUNDAY MAIL 23/10/11 PAGE 21.
I TRIED TO LOOK UP THE REPORT, AS STATED VIEW AT deedi.gov.au
I COULD NOT FIND ANY INFO IN THAT SITE.
CHEERS ,
BRUSH

[Cheech]

I saw that on TV. Use to having restrictions placed, not relaxed. If it is as they said that at a certain age the females stop producing eggs, then makes perfect sense to allow Jennies over a certain size to be kept. As long as they can come up with what that size is.

[Oh Gee]

I thought I heard Annas' lap dog, Andrew 1+1=3 Fraser, bumping his gums on this issue during the weekend. I wonder what they are trying to divert our attention from. Saltwater fishing licences mabey. Or am I just cynical.

[rando]

I seem to remember something about jennies continuing to breed I will try and find it .If it is supported then I don,t think taking jennies should be allowed.

[rando]

I seem to remember something about jennies continuing to breed. I will try and find it .If it is supported then I don't think taking jennies should be allowed.

[rando]

I cant find what i was looking for but here is food for thought. from a NT DPI paper

Stage one crabs are only about 4 mm wide, but frequent moults mean that they grow very quickly. It is
thought that wild mud crabs reach 100 mm carapace width in about a year and sexual maturity in about
two years. Maturation time varies according to water temperature, with higher temperatures accelerating
the growth and decreasing the time taken to reach maturity. The typical life span of a mud crab is
thought to be three to four years.

If they only live 3-4 years and reach sexual maturity at two years there does not appear to be a large window of opportunity to become non breeders

[Si]

i think it should be reviewed as with all management practices at some point. recruitment may not be spawner related at all and may be more of a result of the post settlement success of larvae - good available habitat quality, good currents and wind etc. This was actually found to be the case in other crab fisheries as there was no biological justification for no take on female crabs as recruitment was more dependant on other factors as stated above. Would be interesting to see if fisheries have actually looked into into this at all. I cant seem to find any. I think the precautionary rule applies with a better than safe than sorry mentality which is good i guess.

[rando]

aborted post

[krusey]

I cant find what i was looking for but here is food for thought. from a NT DPI paper

Stage one crabs are only about 4 mm wide, but frequent moults mean that they grow very quickly. It is
thought that wild mud crabs reach 100 mm carapace width in about a year and sexual maturity in about
two years. Maturation time varies according to water temperature, with higher temperatures accelerating
the growth and decreasing the time taken to reach maturity. The typical life span of a mud crab is
thought to be three to four years.

If they only live 3-4 years and reach sexual maturity at two years there does not appear to be a large window of opportunity to become non breeders

Rando mate i would disagree with that as i have seen that many gennies that are about 2 inches (50mm) wide completely loaded with eggs and i have never seen a gennie over the 100mm mark with eggs and i'm not saying that they don't breed but i have seen 100's of smaller ones eggbearing while i haven't seen any larger ones eggbearing

[Horse]

The research that I have found seems to support the idea that the big girlscan still breed. It was noted in some reports that egg bearing females do not enter pots, I'm not sure why this would be the case.
I'm against any change without concrete proof that they are not spawning

[Lucky_Phill]

It is extremely important that everyone responds to the Fisheries Qld request.

I have attached the link that will direct you to the email address.

http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/28_21087.htm


Here is the link on AF in the News Forum.




http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?179384-Proposal-to-take-female-mud-crabs



LP

[Lucky_Phill]

BTW. If the proposal gets up and allows 1 crab per Rec angler, how will that spill over to the commercial sector..?

Will they ask for a 10% of their catch ?

Will they be able to trade their catches ?

How long before the pro's lobby for greater quota ?

The crab fishery is already in a fragile state of sustainablity........ moreso north of the Central Coast and up to the Cape and Gulf.

Let's not get carried away with what this will mean to the recreatioonal anglers, but what it means for the whole industry / fishery.

Fisheries Queensland cannot control the black market now, what hope would they have if the rules were relaxed ?



LP

[bundylundy]

It only takes 5 minutes of your time to have your say through the DPI/Gov. site. If you sit back and do nothing, then the powers at be will interpret for themselves what your opinion is. Wether you are for changes to the crabbing rules or against, it is your right to have your say. So take the time to let your opinions be known.

Jeff.

[chris69]

From what i know about mud crabs the older females dont breed to well or every year after they get older like 4years old and lots of smaller males that attempt to breed with larger females are destroyed by them attempting too , so i would have no problems with one large female being kept with a 21cm or large shell and drop the bag limit to 5 with one female per person ,theres a lot more pots out there these days and thats the pots with floats and just as many with out floats , even a closed season like the snapper for a few years to let then build back up .

And for those interested mud crabs spawn out to sea and grow up in the most important layer of the the ocean ,from the surface down to 2 fathoms and live there until they sink down to the ocean floor and move into the estuarys on the makeing tides on the makeing moon if i remember correctly.

[rayken1938]

"From what i know about mud crabs the older females dont breed to well or every year after they get older like 4years old and lots of smaller males that attempt to breed with larger females are destroyed by them attempting too"
Incorrect just a urban myth. When I did tour of DPI facilities that were experimenting with breeding mud crabs male crabs as small as 3 inches across were locked on to jennies about 7 inches across.
When the jennies are in breeding mode they have soft shells( Just after moulting is the only time they breed) and would be incapable of harming the males

[chris69]

Well rayken1938 that is interesting as any male sand crabs ive found locked up to a female have been firm , you would think that a male mud crab locking onto a soft female would not be good for the female mud crab and do it damage, they release the female just before the female molts and turn the female over to do so, interesting i think to see a small male mud crab flipping a 7inch female over to mate.

[justjack]

i believe and this is through my many years researching into breeding and dealing with them in a natural environment not just crabbing in a boat, i spend 10 hours a week atleast wondering through thick mangroves and that the bag limit for males be tightened in different areas of the state due to mating.... mating here from about fraser south occurs in mid october and will last till the end of december. Mating know matter where in the state lasts no more then 3 months and it happens like clock work. males will only mate with females 3/4 his size or less, a female shacks up with a male 1 week prior to mating in this time the male protects her as her new shell develops after a week the female mates with the male after moulting which occurs just after dark mating last 12hours (give or take an hour so he can have a smoke) this is the only time his claspers can well penetrate the area, by sun rise the females shell is reasonably hard. The male then guards the female for 1 more week this is because the process is not over the female needs time in the hole because during low tide when the hole is exposed to the air she can sit outside the hole to be exposed to the air this helps harden the shell on a side note females will never live in a hole when not getting ready to mate because they roam around alot more looking for protein to produce eggs.

All females, fertile or not, at the end of summer migrate to warmer currents to spawn on there way out the eggs develop into free swimming larvae once the right currents and tides occure they are released into the ocean to begin the cycle all over again, the females not fertile wont survive winter inshore temperatures and unlike males wont live in holes so cant hibernate safely, if they tried to stay past there welcome in the holes the males would eat them for added energy. so this is why these females usually the large non breeders also migrate with the pack, this is where alot of fertile girls are preyed upon because the eggs contain well needed energy to help the extra large crabs to migrate.

It angers me to hear uneducated approaches to how this fishery is going to be sustained so ill give you some of my reasoning ways to think, 1 male mates with 1-2 females once a year maybe 3 females up north where the seaon is longer, only a mature male around 14cm+ will mate now take into affect this female has to be 3/4 the size or smaller. so if female crabs are off limits the population is hugely lopsided so possibly 50% of all possible breeding age females stay infertile, hey ill take 10 crabs on the rare occassion but like alot of you guys with fish i catch and release more than 50%, i believe in a bag limit of 5 personally to maximise mating size males to females maybe even resrict this more during breeding season.

Now the big question "legal keep on females" i believe it should be allowed but only for females measuring 20cm+, im yet to have ever seen a female of this size ever breed, once a female moults with a male if she is exactly 3/4 his size which i said has to be the biggest she can be she will almost be his size after the moult any bigger and he will simply end up food, shes just spent 80% of her energy moulting and breeding and now shes hungry a male crab will not risk it, now a 20cm female to mate will need a 25cm boy..... i've caught many crabs biggest ive seen would max at 25cm. female crabs that size will also not fit in a hole and if they did a male could not flip her to mate making it impossible due to her size. (A female will not i repeat NOT mate outside a hole a male might be found carrying her around but this is because hes looking for a hole... this is not mating)

my second point is my biggest problem, i believe that large female muddies impact on the fisheries more then realised, in my terms i see them as a waste, crabs are hugely canabalistic large female usually hang in areas where all other females hang, more open rivers and bays rather then high in mangrove forests and so by them being here prey on smaller crabs... smaller breeding size crabs, have you even noticed when you get big girls in a pot you usually find not many others... this is because smaller crabs know there a big threat and wont enter or are missing claws or dead. big females also compete for food and habitat also decreasing how many crabs can be sustained by 1 area, these female are all to common and a ristricted bag limit on the take of these would actually benifit the fishery.

and dont tell me this will add to people taking all females for crying out loud if people want to keep undersize and female crabs there already doing it thats a seperate problem the taking of large females will in know way affect anything except increase the amount of breeding crabs, this would relieve pressure of breeding males more because they would not be the only primary target and will increase the chances of breeding crabs, i look forward to hearing what you think :)

[banshee]

i believe and this is through my many years researching into breeding and dealing with them in a natural environment not just crabbing in a boat, i spend 10 hours a week atleast wondering through thick mangroves and that the bag limit for males be tightened in different areas of the state due to mating.... mating here from about fraser south occurs in mid october and will last till the end of december. Mating know matter where in the state lasts no more then 3 months and it happens like clock work. males will only mate with females 3/4 his size or less, a female shacks up with a male 1 week prior to mating in this time the male protects her as her new shell develops after a week the female mates with the male after moulting which occurs just after dark mating last 12hours (give or take an hour so he can have a smoke) this is the only time his claspers can well penetrate the area, by sun rise the females shell is reasonably hard. The male then guards the female for 1 more week this is because the process is not over the female needs time in the hole because during low tide when the hole is exposed to the air she can sit outside the hole to be exposed to the air this helps harden the shell on a side note females will never live in a hole when not getting ready to mate because they roam around alot more looking for protein to produce eggs.

All females, fertile or not, at the end of summer migrate to warmer currents to spawn on there way out the eggs develop into free swimming larvae once the right currents and tides occure they are released into the ocean to begin the cycle all over again, the females not fertile wont survive winter inshore temperatures and unlike males wont live in holes so cant hibernate safely, if they tried to stay past there welcome in the holes the males would eat them for added energy. so this is why these females usually the large non breeders also migrate with the pack, this is where alot of fertile girls are preyed upon because the eggs contain well needed energy to help the extra large crabs to migrate.

It angers me to hear uneducated approaches to how this fishery is going to be sustained so ill give you some of my reasoning ways to think, 1 male mates with 1-2 females once a year maybe 3 females up north where the seaon is longer, only a mature male around 14cm+ will mate now take into affect this female has to be 3/4 the size or smaller. so if female crabs are off limits the population is hugely lopsided so possibly 50% of all possible breeding age females stay infertile, hey ill take 10 crabs on the rare occassion but like alot of you guys with fish i catch and release more than 50%, i believe in a bag limit of 5 personally to maximise mating size males to females maybe even resrict this more during breeding season.

Now the big question "legal keep on females" i believe it should be allowed but only for females measuring 20cm+, im yet to have ever seen a female of this size ever breed, once a female moults with a male if she is exactly 3/4 his size which i said has to be the biggest she can be she will almost be his size after the moult any bigger and he will simply end up food, shes just spent 80% of her energy moulting and breeding and now shes hungry a male crab will not risk it, now a 20cm female to mate will need a 25cm boy..... i've caught many crabs biggest ive seen would max at 25cm. female crabs that size will also not fit in a hole and if they did a male could not flip her to mate making it impossible due to her size. (A female will not i repeat NOT mate outside a hole a male might be found carrying her around but this is because hes looking for a hole... this is not mating)

my second point is my biggest problem, i believe that large female muddies impact on the fisheries more then realised, in my terms i see them as a waste, crabs are hugely canabalistic large female usually hang in areas where all other females hang, more open rivers and bays rather then high in mangrove forests and so by them being here prey on smaller crabs... smaller breeding size crabs, have you even noticed when you get big girls in a pot you usually find not many others... this is because smaller crabs know there a big threat and wont enter or are missing claws or dead. big females also compete for food and habitat also decreasing how many crabs can be sustained by 1 area, these female are all to common and a ristricted bag limit on the take of these would actually benifit the fishery.

and dont tell me this will add to people taking all females for crying out loud if people want to keep undersize and female crabs there already doing it thats a seperate problem the taking of large females will in know way affect anything except increase the amount of breeding crabs, this would relieve pressure of breeding males more because they would not be the only primary target and will increase the chances of breeding crabs, i look forward to hearing what you think :)


I have been trying to find a paper that I read previously on the subject for a while,no need to now,you have nailed what it said perfectly.Like you it also angers (sometimes amusses) me when the self appointed experts on here actually know SFA.

[Gazza]

Now the big question "legal keep on females" i believe it should be allowed but only for females measuring 20cm+, im yet to have ever seen a female of this size ever breedNice post , 17cms+ X 2units , and you have my vote... ;)

[rayken1938]

Sunfish Qld Media Release

MUD CRAB FISHERY NOT SUSTAINABLE UNDER A GOVERNMENT PROPOSAL

David Bateman AM Deputy Chairman of Sunfish said that he was amazed that the Government would even consider such an irresponsible act as allowing the taking of female mud crabs. In the past few years numerous meetings and a 2 day stakeholder workshop have been held to discuss this matter. Most of the stakeholders present had major concerns if this was to proceed and were not in favor of the proposal. At the workshop recreational fishers throughout the state unanimously rejected the proposal and there was only conditional support from commercial crabbers. To raise it again is just ignoring the wishes of the majority to benefit the short sighted greedy wishes of a few commercially oriented operators. I am surprised that the Government could be so naive as to expect support from the people of Queensland.

To add to the insult the Crab Management Plan is currently under review by a Queensland Fisheries Advisory Committee with all stakeholders represented and this proposal was not even considered worthy of consideration. It appears as if someone is trying to circumvent the normal consultation process.

Mr. Bateman said that the Queensland mud crab catches were stable and sustainable unlike other adjoining states where the crab populations were declining and females allowed to be taken.

Dr. Barry Pollock said that if this is introduced it will mean a major reduction in the female mud crab population. In Asian and Pacific Island countries mud crab populations have been severely depleted as a result of heavy fishing pressure on male and female mud crabs of all sizes. Mud crabs are an iconic Queensland seafood item and they must be carefully managed to ensure their sustainability. Female mud crabs can be fertile through their whole life cycle and crabs over 25cm across the shell are still capable of breeding. They store the male sperm in special internal receptacles until conditions are right to release their eggs.

Unlike recreational fishers, commercial crabbers have no catch limits and the female crab population will fall easy prey for export to the southern markets in Sydney and Melbourne Mr. Bateman said.

Again the recreational sector will suffer so that a few operators in the commercial fishing sector can make short term profits. Short term gain for long term uncertainty is not the way to manage a fishery. If the Government is really serious it would allow its appointed advisory committee to do its job and recommend responsible management arrangements.
All recreational fishers should contact their local state member and voice their objection.

SUNFISH QUEENSLAND IS TOTALLY OPPOSED TO THE TAKING OF FEMALE MUD CRABS and ANYONE REPLYING TO THE GOVERNMENT DISCUSSION DOCUMENT SHOULD JUST WRITE “NO CHANGE”.

Contact point-

David Bateman Deputy Chairman 07 38804261
Sunfish Queensland Inc

Dr. Barry Pollock, Scientific Officer 07 33989306
www.sunfishqld.com.au (http://www.sunfishqld.com.au/).

And below is attached an open letter from the East Coast Crabfishers Industry Network Inc. who are also against any change.

To whom it may concern

This proposal is not supported by the majority of industry without first introducing a sound management plan for the crab fisheries. The current management regime does not provide a sound mechanism to monitor and manage harvest levels nor does it provide for a robust indicator of stock abundance.

Having read some of Minister Wallace's comments, he is sorely misguided that harvest of the species is currently under control. The two main control mechanisms for this fishery being restricted apparatus use (50 pots) and the voluntary logbook program are widely abused with some operators running in excess of three times the allowable pot numbers and over reporting in the logbook in the hope to gain from future management arrangements. QB&FP report that they cannot detect and control excessive pot use in the fishery & in addition there is still a high degree of latency within the fishery with potential effort being two to two and one half times current levels.

Any robust control over harvest levels in this fishery is non existent with economic failure being the most common control over commercial participation. To remove the restriction on female harvesting will remove this barrier in the short term driving down prices and stock levels simultaneously until the point where economic indicators prevail and the fishery becomes again unviable.

The introduction of harvesting of female mudcrabs will remove the last buffer that is keeping the fishery somewhat viable in the face of increasing recreational pressure inline with population growth and commercial effort in line with attractive prices. To remove this buffer without putting in place a control over harvest levels will see decimation of stock levels in the mud crab fishery.

This fishery is currently under management review and a panel of industry, recreational fishers and fishery management experts is working through the process of determining the most suitable management arrangements for this fishery, once that process is complete only then may this proposal be considered. Further, a process exists for consideration of management changes for Qld fisheries being QFAC. The Minister should follow due process and/or convene a panel of industry and recreational fishers to examine the issue rather than indulge himself as an expert and engage in ill informed meddling which will surely result in poor decision making.

Further dialog is invited

Bruce Sutton

Secretary
East Coast Crabfishers Industry Network Inc. Ph. 0417 613424

I do not proclaim to be an expert but base my opinions on what i have seen with my own eyes and been told at the DPI research station where I observed small male crabs attached to large females. The DPI person conducting the tour did not state that it was not possible for a small male to mate with a large female.
I have also attached info from Sunfish and the pro crabbers assn.
Things have to be a bit sus when even the pro crabbers assn are against it.
CHeers
Ray

[justjack]

ive gone to the dpi research station many times when they set up the breeding program mainly because i have bred many marine invertabrates for the aquarium trade and have worked with several marine biologists and aquaculture experts. I supplied them brood stock for breeding, small males in a controlled runway designed tank in a temperature controled environment will breed because the situation they have been put in is unnatural to what the encounter in the wild, the reason the small males were used was because of the lack of larger males and to cut down on the size of the runway boxes in the tanks they would need, these females were also added to the males after the moult and removed straight after the mate to stop canabalism, i mearly said this is impossible to occur in the wild.

unfortunetly if sunfish oppose the lifting of the rule ofcoarse they will get marine biologist on there side to back there claims, and of coarse pros will not want this lifted what would they rather.... people having to buy mud crabs due to people not being able to catch a feed due to the lacking supply of legal males apposed to the taking of females being made legal, the market price would have to fall due to more people being able to catch there own because there would be a better chance of catching either sex, i know alot of marine biologist that would see it as a wise move to legalise it in a controlled state but unfortunetly they wont have there opinions written about due to them disagreeing to sunfish... also not saying marine biologists arent experts but we are talking about one species of crab here just because you have a degree in marine biology doesnt make them mud crab experts, there are a few around especially those in dpi and csiro and i know they have mixed opinions aswell. Ive also heard in reports marine biologist not nowing much at all about mud crabs but comparing another crab fishery in the world to the situation.... thats like comparing ducks to chickens. unfortunetly an unbias review into this will not happen because frankly $$$ talks. The fishery has been increasing from about 200 t of legal males in 1988 to around 1000 t in 2000-2001. Commercial catch rates remained relatively constant at about 20 kg/day until 1997, increasing to 26 kg/day in 2000-2001. The high value of the fishery ($10.4 million) now if this price was to drop what sort of stink do you think it would cause, personally i shouldnt be even wasting my time on what i think because its wasted words to the bigger better cause. im not saing i think my idea will work im just plain saying it will its common sense and plain understanding of the species at hand.

[bondy99]

All scientists disagree with one another as they all have their own philosophies irrespective what discipline it is. Architects would argue about the design of a house even though it has the same functuality.

Statistical data can be manipulated to suit the cause depending who is buttering their bread.

All I can say is don't believe everything one reads in newspapers and the media in general as being gospel. An old saying which is true..."today's news is tomorrows fish'n'chips"

Bondy