Loading in a crosswind - traps for new players

[thylacene]

Had occasion to be more than slightly entertained and feel much sympathy follwoing a couple of incidents observed at the bermagui ramp over the easter.

On both occasions it involved loading boats in a crosswind.

The first saw a guy in a 24ft walkaround who trashed the skeg and then submerged the diff of the tow vehicle over a twenty minute period of trying to drive on the boat. The tow driver and the boat driver appeared to have no understanding of basic principles involved, and while annoying having to wait, was very amusing. The learnings though were easy, try different depths for the trailer in calm water to find where it unloads with a small push and then use the same when preparing to drive on, too deep and the boat slews, too shallow and the angle of the stern will result in scraping the skeg as the bow rides up on the trailer. Trimming the engine up as far as practical also helps, but does make it a little harder to manoeuvre. The same boat also copped a scuff up the side from where he ran into the pontoon letting the crew off to get the trailer.

The second incident was far more serious, and almost involved my mate who had backed the trailer down and was waiting for me to come in. Another crew, obviously in a rush, backed the railer in, the other skipper cut across in front of me at a rate of knots as he tried to use speed to overcome the effect of the crosswind. He approached the trailer quite quickly, and as he hit it, was not expecting the "jolt" causing him to slip while he had hold of the throttle, pushing it forward to flat out.

The result of this was the boat launching violently onto the trailer, bending the winch tree, driving the bow sprite under the open rear window of the 200 series cruiser and bending it severely, gouging a 500mm hole through the bow and the outboard (still trimmed fully down) jumping the rollers and becoming trapped in front of the last rollers as the boat sat at an angle to the trailer. The skeg was broken off, the prop was trashed and the gla hammered off the trailer by the prop as he tried to reverse off before realising it was jammed. My mate was almost crushed in the exercise. In their rush to get sorted, they decided to back the trailer into the water further to float the boat off the trailer, submerging the rear of the 200 series cruiser to the sills on the rear doors.

I would have detached the trailer, tethered it to the drawbar and allowed it to run back down the ramp rather than submerge the tow vehicle in salt water.

The learning from this is to approach the trailer slowly, straighten the boat using the engine and then using gentle acceleration to drive on to the trailer.

Strange thing was, neither of these incidents seemed to phase the owners.

The second incident could have resulted in a serious injury in addition to the estimated 50K damage done.

Once the carnage cleared, it took us just five minutes to get loaded and off the ramp, using a slow and careful approach (involving one abort due to a wind gust). This ramp is not subject to surf, being in a harbour, and 26' boats are launched regularly from it.

A little bit of common-sense seems to be missing these days, or is it just me? I can't see the logic in submerging a $150K vehicle in salt water, or suffering that much damage in an attempt to be 5 minutes faster out of the water.

Cheers

Thy

[tenzing]

Sound horrible.
You are quite right about the easy does it approach.
No shame in pulling out if you're not lined up.
I learnt a fair bit watching other boats go on easily in the screaming tidal run at 1770 when it was down to one lane. If you can get the nose on the end of the trailer( even with tow mans help in my case,) then you can use the motor to swing it around.
Thanks for the story. Cant help not feeling sorry all the time for people who cut in front and then stuff it up.
A fellow drove around us as we waited to launch at scarby a few weeks ago, then proceeded to undo straps , detach light board bla, bla bla. When he fell arse up and into the briny up to his ears I couldnt help but feel that it couldnt happen to a nicer guy.
Not very charitable of me I know.
Sorry to hijack, just been kinda saving that one up for an appropriate time.
Cheers
Brendan

[thylacene]

Must admit that I didn't have a lot of sympathy in either case, manners aren't expensive unless you don't use them.

Shame to see nice kit being treated poorly through senseless behaviour, but if they are looking for sympathy it can be found between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.

I have gleaned much from this forum and thought it worth sharing to provoke some thought for other newbies. I have always found it easier to learn from the mistakes of others, or at least much less expensive :P

Having damaged a prop thru my own negligence, the cost of missing four days fishing was far more expensive than the replacement prop, the wench still reminds me regularly :)

[truth stretcher]

I must admit i'm pretty crap at driving my boat on the trailer , but ive never owned a boat like ive got now before, and i'm definately getting better.
Havent broken anything yet and am all about taking my time and doing it safely.
If you see me or anyone like me at a ramp near you struggling a bit and can give me a little bit more time or even a bit of help or advice please do.

[thylacene]

Happy to give time and offer assistance, I did offer the first case some help (offered to tie off a line and hold the stern steady) but "they knew boats". I was floating around the harbour for twenty minutes watching the second.

I strongly support you taking your time, but also recommend that you observe the variables and understand what is going on as you load your boat. The depth for the trailer, the angle of the ramp, the wind direction and the load in the boat all affect the launch and retrieve, requiring slightly different amounts of throttle and approach. It is better to have a plan when loading in adverse/poor conditions and be sure that your tow man, or woman as the case may be, is aware of it, including any assistance in managing an aborted attempt, ie being ready to stand you off the pontoon if required.

a tonne of boat at 5kmh can do some serious damage, make it 10kmh and the potential damage is up by a factor of 3 or more.

[tenzing]

" if they are looking for sympathy it can be found between shit and syphilis in the dictionary."


Love it!!

[Lovey80]

Thanks for the read. I drive both of my boats on and can say I have it down to less than a minute some days from the time the trailer has halted in the water to the driver getting back in and driving up the ramp.

I will disagree with you on one point though. I learned this through trail and error. If you have your trailer at the right depth, I ALWAYS trim my motors right undeneath. I know this sounds counter intuitive but even if the trailer is a little too far out of the water or you have one of those tilt jobbies it is the nose rising up in the air that gets the skeg and props busted up. Best way to counteract this is to tuck them under so the ass end stays higher in the air like when you take off to get up onto the plane.

Just my thoughts

Cheers

Chris

[Dave_H]

In this "age of impatience" at ramps a thread like this one tends to be quite thought prevoking and always elicits people emotions and stories about how somebody did this or that etc. In fact the agro most of us have seen at some ramps from others when someone decides that the crosswind or current (or combinations of such) is too strong to drive on and actually does the right thing and winches the boat on with a mate to guide the bow/stern never ever ceases to amaze me and yeah, I've even seen the loud mouth smart rrs waiting to get onto the ramp cop a flogging from someone doing the right thing and taking their time to get it right and protect their investment.

Lovey80, there are right ways, wrong ways, your ways and others ways. Different boats and different trailer construction require different approaches. No single way is always right and in fact I continue to learn new things every now and again even though I've been doing this launching/retrieving thing myself for over 30 years now. Some people though (as outlined in the original posters story) just don't get it and will continue to keep pushing into a bad decision no matter how stupid they eventually end up looking.

Ultimately we are all there to have a good day, why so many have to go out of their way to stuff it up for everyone never ceases to amaze.

Regards,

Dave

[Chimo]

So much less damage and lack of drama with a winch even it may take a little longer, except if one pulls the stunts as above.

Nothing wrong with a boring launch and retrieve.............

Cheers
Chimo

[peterbo3]

Thy has highlighted one of the really bad outcomes from drive on recovery. There are some ramps which, in the wrong conditions, make drive ons near impossible even for very experienced skippers.
I generally try to drive Drumbeat on but being a high boat it really feels a strong wind & gets blown around. In places like Spinnaker Sound with adjacent sandy beach & little tide it is pretty easy. Scarborough or Mooloolaba next to the CG will vary.
I cheat.;D;D If it is blowing I keep a bowline hooked up & deckie #1 will toss the bowline to deckie #2 at the trailer & he will gently pull the bow into the first set of rollers with me applying some very low revs. Hook the winch line up & do a combo power on/winch on. Not pretty but not much slower either. And no chance of prop damage.
Better to be yelled at for being a tad slow than laughed at for wiping out a $700 prop.;);)

[Baithoven]

Nicely summed up an entertaining thread peterbro3....have to agree 100% with you - 30yrs on the water, and I still taking the launch/retrieve with care. Drive on most times, but the winch hook/drive combo works great for me in a windy spot.

[Out-Station]

Entertaining thread!!

I think some of the problem comes from the fact that boating as a past time continues to grow and subsequent inexperience. There are allot of people stepping into 6 and 7 meter boats straight from the dealer that have never owned a boat or spent no real time on the water. As such they havn't earn't the unspoken laws of the way things work out on the water and at the ramp let alone the skills required in handling their craft in a nasty cross wind. So when you get a super green skipper with no real idea, a bit of attitude and poor manors thrown in it all does downhill for themselves and potentially anyone else close by.

The amazing thing is there is so much to be easily learn't simply by watching those who have been doing it forever and know their stuff but allot of these newcomers don't seem to recognize that, gotta learn the hard way!!

Scott

[Chimo]

True Scott, but in many cases they don't, they just blame the conditions, nothing to do with the wham bamm mentality exhibited by many young whipper sappers!

Bring on Xmas at the ramp!

Cheers
Chimo, GOM

[PADDLES]

i've only been driving on/off for about 18 months and our ramp is into a river so we suffer from tidal run and a bit of wind pushing to one side, but the number one thing i've learnt is patience and going real slow gets me on easy every time.

[trymyluck]

Can not understand why the impatience at boat ramps, or the agro. Launched at Tin Can Bay yesterday morning and after coming back from parking the car and trailer was confronted by an argument between an guy next to us and a couple of young blokes, seemed the older bloke was waiting for his mate to back the trailer down and when he did the young blokes had their boat in between his and the trailer so he asked if they could move their boat. It got quite heated for a minute or 2.


Mark

[goat boy]

as much as common sense is missing, it's also the 'green-ness' of the people mentioned. Everyone knows it's entertaining to go to a boat ramp at holiday time or a summer weekend. But consider this, for all these people that do go out and buy these boats with no experience, then where do they gain it to begin with?
When I got my boat licence I had no idea what to expect, imagine my surprise at a days worth of pretty much explaining how to read the beacon to beacon and the waterway rules followed by the only practical handling being a 2min stint at the wheel performing a figure 8 move.
I followed this up with Bill Cortens bar crossing course which was miles ahead of the supposed boat licencing course. I could have trolled the internet for half a day and passed that 'exam'. In this era of the nanny state and certain groups calling for more and more marine safety (as what recently happened in NSW regarding life jacket laws) I can't believe all you have to do to get a boat licence is go and sit in a classroom for a day. I'm not an advocate for more laws or rules or anything, but even if the insurance companies lowered your premium for doing something like Bill Cortens course... and I'm sure there's a market for some sort of launch/retrieval cse, sort of like the sand driving courses for beach newbies in their fourbies?
It's funny and entertaining to watch, but it's only going to keep getting worse!

[bigjimg]

As entertaining as it may be but if someone is having a bit of a hard time how hard is it to lend a hand or offer some advice while having a chat after the event.I let my deckies know that if someone is struggling give them a hand before we retrieve.But courtesy while waiting to launch some people don't understand and i'm not one to hold back.Jim

[Timfishin4fun]

It is amazing in bad conditions how much easier things are with a rope to the tail.

And yes some people just won't listen.

Timbo

[peterbo3]

It is amazing in bad conditions how much easier things are with a rope to the tail.

And yes some people just won't listen.

Timbo

Timbo,
You have let the feline escape from the sack :o:o so I will expand.

What Tim has alluded to is the use of rear cleat lines to keep the boat straight. This works for winch on, drive on or combo.
So every time you approach the trailer you slow down, & the wind or tide or both will push your stern right around. You cannot give the engine heaps to correct it because you are in shallow water. Solution.
If the wind/current is going to push the stern to starboard (if you cannot work this out approaching the ramp you should not be driving the boat ;D;D ) tie a line to your rear stbd cleat & run it across the stern, around the rear port cleat but not fastened or looped & up to the bow. 10 or 12mm is fine but you need a bit of length. By pulling on the line from the bow, on the ramp where the trailer will be, the stern will come back to port & the boat will straighten up. It is pretty simple & saves you, really your deckie, getting in waist deep to pull the stern around.
Swap cleats if you are going to be pushed to port. But you need to do this before you get to the ramp. Preparation is the key. Plus it will not work without a body to pull on the rope.

Ya happy now Tim............. that is like giving out wreck marks.:o:o;D;D;D;D

[dan12345]

little bit off topic, but put my boat in today at the seaway ramp,arivved watching a fellow an mates trying to launch a 685 outsider, reversed down put my boat in parked my trailer an walked back,these fellas are still trying to get it off::) watched for about five more mins as they fully submeresed the trailer then gave the engine full noise still no movement,two blokes pushing full engine trailer sunk nothing, :-? then fell over laughing as i noticed the saftey chain still on;D a kind old fello walked over an said he wasnt sure how to launch such a big boat but when he launches his tinny he normally takes off the chain that connects it to the trailer off an that normally helps:D the look on there faces was priceless 3 ppl an not one remembered thec chain

[samsnap]

Peterbo3 "Drumbeat" Thank you for the above - I had a rotten time over Easter trying to "Drive On" my 6.5 Walkround and being a novice dosen't help and not having a Drive-on Trailer makes it even more interesting - I missed 3 times over Easter and everyone just stood by smirking! Time to bring out the old Telecom rope me thinks, when the wind is blowing - Ha more work for Hubby :)>
Thanks for the hint - any more :)?
Cheers Sammy

[mitchdemeanor]

Still nice and green at this but I learnt to drive on first and never had a problem. Funny thing is even though it takes more time I have decided just to winch my shark bait on every time now. Yes its boring and has no showmanship to it, but it's consistant and I'm happy it being that way :)

[PADDLES]

hey sammy, i find that getting the front end into the right spot is 80% of the battle. once you can get the vee onto the first set of rollers you can use the thrust of the motor to swing the rear wherever you want it to go. try driving into the wind/current even if it's parallel to the bank and then just using the motor to swing the rear end around. i usually have wifey standing by at the back of the trailer to give the bow a quick shove if i need it.

[Fed]

I keep the rear roller at water level, walk the bow out, hook it to the cable & pull the powerwinch string. It starts off with the boat at right angles to the trailer then pivots on the rear roller as the winch pulls it straight.
If I always had 2 people I wouldn't even bother with a powerwinch but it sure is easy when you're on your own.

[TheRealAndy]

For those learning to drive on, dont stress if you miss the mark a few times. You will get there. If I am in an unknown place I tend to to a test run up to the ramp before the trailer is in, just to gauge the effects of wind and tide.

Was anyone up at Hervey Bay yesterday? Must have been fun for the casual observer with 158 trailer yachts being retrieved throughout the afternoon!!

[fishfeeder]

I don't have a problem driving on, I just take note when I drop off the deckie to go get the trailer how much the boat is effected by the wind/current and then I allow for it when lining up the trailer and If it doesn't look right I just reverse back and try again, the trick I found was to give myself a bit of room to approach the trailer and the first few times I got the Deckie to point left or right to line me up the center of the trailer
I found I needed to make sure I was going forward at about a slow walking speed and then I just apply enough throttle to make the boat go slowly up the trailer, then hold it with the motor as the deckie hooks up the winch cable then I turn the motor off and raise it up as he does up the safety chain. easy and all done in less then 5min.

I cant see why it should take 10-20min to put a boat on a trailer its crazy and not needed with a bit of practice and little skill.

Cheers

[samsnap]

mmm - powerwinch (or wench?)::) may need to be next purchase, any ideas on converting a trailer to "drive on" or do I have to sped big $$$ to go to a custom trailer maker?? Any ideas of one around North Brisbane that may give good advice? I usually dont miss but when I do I get all "girly" and it goes to $h!T from there :( (I always imagine on-lookers saying stupid Btch) I guess it all comes with practice & patience as you say
Thank you all for helpful ideas
Sammyxx

[hakuna]

Peterbo3 "Drumbeat" Thank you for the above - I had a rotten time over Easter trying to "Drive On" my 6.5 Walkround and being a novice dosen't help and not having a Drive-on Trailer makes it even more interesting - I missed 3 times over Easter and everyone just stood by smirking! Time to bring out the old Telecom rope me thinks, when the wind is blowing - Ha more work for Hubby :)>
Thanks for the hint - any more :)?
Cheers Sammy

For the bigger boats try jack knifing the trailer to the direction of your drift/ wind, instead of driving on perpendicular to the drift you are come up it at an angle, you will be supprised at how much easier it is. Yes, some other useres of the ramp will remain patient as you will use a double lane but In my experience most people are happy as they understand you have a task to retrieve a big boat and normally it only takes a minute anyway, less than hand or power winching the small boats even.

For the experienced, have a chat if you someone having trouble, you are waiting anyway

I was at the ramp a few weeks ago and 2 teenages were trying to launch their dads boat, could not back it down the ramp for quids, just said to the kid try turning the wheel towards the mirror you see most of the boat, keep equal amounts in each mirror, took him 2 mins and it was launched. he was happy, I could then launch my boat

Nobody frustrated


cheers

[lethal098]

Its amazing how many people dont want help, I have been down there and seen people struggling, you ask politely if they would like some assistance to be abruptly told, nope dont need your help, now i just dont bother, i watched funnily yesterday a father and sons trying to launch there old school sharkcat at Scarborough, i timed them 28 minutes then i had to leave, they still had the boat attached to the trailer, lucky for them it was mid morning and wasnt super busy. DOnt think they ended up getting on the water as one of their motors would start.

Launching is one of those things that should only take a minute or two. For me the day before i go out i always start the motor and let it run for a few minutes to make sure all is working well. nothing worse than getting to the ramp put the boat in, go to start motor and nuthin, saw that 3 times yesterday as well. Pre trip checks are important, battery, oil etc etc. for some reason some people just expect everything to work everytime. Saw some very disappointed faces yesterday when the weather was sensational and they turned around and went home.

Cheers Lee

[TheRealAndy]

And most important thing when driving on, you must have some speed otherwise you cant steer. I think most people's problem comes from the fact they are moving to slow.

[Muddy Toes]

And most important thing when driving on, you must have some speed otherwise you cant steer. I think most people's problem comes from the fact they are moving to slow.


Spot on....i've seen a lot of people trying to steer the boat onto the trailer with the engine in neutral or at a very low speed.While the boat will 'eventually' swing around, most of the time it is too late as the speed of the sideways drift is just too much.With the motor turned in the right direction a quick squirt of the throttle is all that's usually needed to bring the bow or stern for that matter in to where it needs to be.Not constant speed but a quick squirt here and there can make all the difference to get it lined up.This works particularly well in area of close confines such as ramps that are close to loading pontoon and the likes.
Another easy way to combat the forces of the wind when launching and retrieving is to lower biminis or at least fold them up and if the boat has clears roll them up...its amazing how much windage can be avoided by doing this.;D

[thylacene]

When loading I approach the trailer at minimum forward throttle, allowing for the drift due to wind, and select neutral until the bow rests between the rollers, and then use a small amount of throttle to allow the boat to centre before applying enough throttle to allow the boat to roll up the trailer slowly, edging it the last bit to the post. Never shy about aborting and having a second go.

With each of the boats we have bought, we have gone to the ramp on a weekday mid-morning and with calm weather, tried various depths for the trailer from a starting point that has the rear of the cine about 4 inches under water and unload and load, and then adjust the depth of the trailer until it feels right.

When unloading, the boat should require only a slight "shove" or a rev to about 1500 rpm to reverse off the trailer, and starting with the engine at the top of the trim, as the boat starts to go back, tilt it up but not so far that the water intake comes out of the water.

Before the winch wench undoes the winch, I place the boat in gear at minimum forward throttle to avoid jammed fingers as the winch is unhooked and the safety chain undone, and with a "thumbs up" from the wench, select reverse and allow the boat to move backwards off the trailer.

When loading, if there is no abort, we are usually less than 5 minutes from the time the trailer stops. Being relatively quick just required a little bit of testing and practice to get the setup and system sorted. We launch from a great ramp, deep, inside the seawall and a pontoon to swing a tail rope in ordinary conditions. No-one even gets wet feet. Its not as warm down this way as it is in Qld, starting an 8 degree day with wet boots sucks.

I applaud the suggestion for providing training, although getting a suitable variety of conditions/ramps etcetera might be difficult. I do think people should be encouraged to practice and test in a range of conditions when there aren't another 30 trailers lined up behind them. It is a commitment of time that pays off everytime you launch or retrieve, and it is better than panicking or getting embarrassed when it is busy and you just want to go fishing.

As for reversing, go find a carpark or a paddock on a sunday, and practice there too. Most boats are great to reverse due to the length between the towbar pivot and the axle, so the trailer turns slower. I have taught numerous people to back trailers, up to and including semi-trailers, and articulated buses this way, and everyone that "couldn't back a trailer" could within half and hour. A couple of orange cones or even beer cartons make better boundaries that gutters and rock walls, and no time pressure means they relax and concentrate on the job at hand. Basic competence is achieved through practice and repetition.

Our current hull is 6.3m and weighs around 1500kg, I have winched it on once at the lake ramp, and it is bloody hard work, even with a 10:1 winch. Taking the time to learn how to drive on confidently is well worthwhile in my mind.

YMMV

Thy

[Fed]

I dug up an old video of a launch late last year...

Top of ramp, reverse down, get out of car & stand at winch post = 45 sec
Undo safety shackle & winch hook = 40 sec (shit shackle)
Launch boat = 5 sec

I have since replaced the shackle with a snap hook (I know, I know) so I'm probably doing the whole launch from ramp top to floating boat in 60 sec now.
I'll get a retrieve video to check the times against.
I strive to be solo, fast, any ramp in any conditions.

[oldboot]

I think most of these boat launcing problems come down to a large number of boat users having not take the time to have "thaught 1" about launching their boat.

They certainly have not taken the time to realy think about it and work it out, and definitely have not taken the time to practice or develop a system.......these sort of people would not take any instruction unless it was compulsory.

I think too, there are lott of people who have good properly thaught out drive on systems.... but there are also quite a lot of people who drive on simply due to being lazy or trying to show them selves as heros.....where with their capabilities or lack there of, they should be winching on.

There is a video called " precision boat handling made easy", this shows a drive on method with the winch cable attached that would get you on under almost any conditions.
It may not be as fast as just driving straight on... but it will get you on every time and no problem with lining up and getting on straight in any conditions, and very very low risk of any damage.

As for me...I'm happy to keep winching on.

cheers