QLD Definition of Boat Length

[Obi _ Wan]

Hi All,
Hope someone here can help, i have just spent many hours trying to find a QLD Government link where they actually explain how the boat length is obtained for registration purposes.

I have had some people say that it is the water line length, others say overall bowsprite and pod, others say not including bowsprite or pod, but these are not official sources.

Surely there has to be a link (Gov,) where all the details are there for all to see??

Also, is there a link that explains boat trailers for rego purposes as well ????

Thanks,
John.

PS. Reason, this has a huge impact of fees charged by this Government, as much as a third with some rigs.

[TheRealAndy]

I have always assumed waterline length, as this is pretty standard measure in nautical engineering terms. Good question though, my money is on it not being defined anywhere, in which case I would use waterline length as it may put you down into a lower priced rego bracket!

[oldboot]

I cant quote chapter and verse, but it is "overall length" including bowsprit and pod if they are fitted.

My boat is classed as a 16 foot or whatever that works out to in metric.....without the bow sprit and pod it would come down to 14 foot.
and at the water line it would be 12 foot.


cheers

[Chris1984]

from bow to stern not including sprit or pod.

[PADDLES]

my whittley 660 is 6.6m waterline length and is registered as such.

even though someone could say something different on here obi_wan, i think we both know what the cheapest option is here. there's no point getting into a " my boat is bigger than your boat" debate if it is going to cost you more money, just use the model length as stated by the manufacturer. assuming it's not been built by you of course.

[Cheech]

Good question. Mine is registered as being 6.3m. It is a 21fter. But with a tape measure it is only 6m straight up the middle stern to bow (only had a small sprit so same). To get the 6.3m you would have to measure around the gunnel.

[oldboot]

The legeslation seems to indicate many things defined by AS1799

AS 1799 states that "L" boat length is defined by ISO8666.

don't you wish they would just cough up and say what it means.

Id it don't include the bow sprit and pod...hell, I need to update my registration, because it would save me some $$$

But I'm not hopefull.

This is a quote from a quote posted on boatdesign.net..a direct quote from ISO 8666

The length of the hull, LH, shall be measured in accordance with 5.2, one plane passing through the foremost part
of the craft and the other through the aftermost part of the craft.
This length includes all structural and integral parts of the craft, such as wooden, plastic or metal stems or sterns,
bulwarks and hull/deck joints.
This length excludes removable parts that can be detached in a non-destructive manner and without affecting the
structural integrity of the craft, e.g. spars, bowsprits, pulpits at either end of the craft, stemhead fittings, rudders,
outdrives, outboard motors and their mounting brackets and plates, diving platforms, boarding platforms, rubbing
strakes and fenders.
This length does not exclude detachable parts of the hull, which act as hydrostatic or dynamic support when the
craft is at rest or underway.
With multihull craft, the length of each hull shall be measured individually. The length of the hull, LH, shall be taken
as the longest of the individual measurements.

so if it is a permanent part of the boat that can not be removed..as is the case with my pod and my bowsprit.......that are measured..

I am going to get my tape measure out any way;D

cheers

[tropicrows]

John,

When I paid the rego on mine for the first time a few years back, i asked the same question, and was told it's the "water line length". Dont no where QLD transport got the info from but thats what I used and it made a big difference to how much it cost.
I dont think QLD transport care that much, just as long as you give them a length.;)

[Obi _ Wan]

my whittley 660 is 6.6m waterline length and is registered as such.

even though someone could say something different on here obi_wan, i think we both know what the cheapest option is here. there's no point getting into a " my boat is bigger than your boat" debate if it is going to cost you more money, just use the model length as stated by the manufacturer. assuming it's not been built by you of course.

PADDLES, Mate no pissing contest going on here, the boat concerned does not belong to me. I agree with your comment about the model length as stated by the manufacturer. One should never assume.

Oldboot, I reckon you are on the money with AS 1799 and ISO 8666, I've also had a look at those.

The reason i started this thread is, a friend of mine bought a new boat a couple of years ago, model length quoted and displayed on the hull says 470, he has been paying for a five meter plus length since it was first registered by the dealer, who obviously included the bowsprit and the pod in its length. He asked the Dept. about a ruling on fire extinguishers and life jackets which come into play for vessels over five meters. He tried to get info from the Dept, no help was forthcoming, he tried Marine QLD, same thing, bloody hopeless, he then rang Transport again and the woman said, after checking, the length is not including the bowsprite or the pod.
He was extremely concerned about being fined for not carrying a fire extinguisher and the wearing of life jackets.
He will not save money by having the listed length reduced as the registered length catagories are, up to and including 4.5metres, 4.51 - 6 meters, 6.01 - 10 meters.

I have emailed a direct request QLD Transport asking where i can find a link that defines vessel length for registration purposes, they state response in 15 days.

I imagine that this sort of event/mistake could affect a lot of boaters by making some things necessary by law and reducing requirements for others

Cheers,
John.

[PADDLES]

hi john, don't get me wrong mate, i wasn't intending to be rude. i'd be maybe using the model designation length at 4.7m because that's what the water police will be looking at when they come and check your gear, the model designation will be on the side of the boat. does it state the length differently on the builder's plate? good point about the safety gear requirements, i ignorantly thought you were referring to a cutoff for a cheaper rego price.

[Aussie123]

I had NSW Waterways re measure one of my boats for Survey and at the time they said there was 3 ways to legally measure a boat so i'd guess Queensland would be quite similar.
1- Directly down the centreline from the point of the Bow to the rear edge of the Stern and not including any addons.
2- Measure around the gunwhale line from point of Bow to stern and not including any addons.
3 - Measure from point of Bow down along the keel line to lowest point of the stern and not including any addons.
The method of choice was up to me at the time so we went the centreline method due to the boat not being on the slipway to measure the keel line.

[mick smith 1168]

i just got mine rego and they went bow to stern and no pod
on mine the pob adds an ex 1m on the boat whitch is not on the rego pappers

[dww13]

It is an interesting topic.

Another view to consider

While it may be only the diffrence of dollars for registration that change in most of the boats involved on this forum there are some major implications on having the known, determined, registered or actual length of the vessel if or when the vessel is to be put into survey.

We ran a Blackwatch 40 prior to the rivera and as the model indicates it was know as a 40 foot vessel, however the registered hull length was only 11.99m. The conversion of feet to meters works out at 12.1 or thereabouts and while it may seem insignificant wether it was 11.99 or 12.1 the requirments for saftey systems etc change dramaticaly once the registered vessel is 12m or greater as do the requirments of the skipper and crew to operate under survey.

I understand that the manufacturers all have to provide a registered hull length for each model and that is the length to be used for registration and survey requirments etc. I understand that the blackwatch 40 hull was measured from the inside of the hulls/moulds to keep the dimension less then 12m however for the marketing they used the overall dimensions and rounded it to 40 foot.

[Obi _ Wan]

hi john, don't get me wrong mate, i wasn't intending to be rude. i'd be maybe using the model designation length at 4.7m because that's what the water police will be looking at when they come and check your gear, the model designation will be on the side of the boat. does it state the length differently on the builder's plate? good point about the safety gear requirements, i ignorantly thought you were referring to a cutoff for a cheaper rego price.

My mate asked them at QLD Transport what the Water Police or the Fisheries would look at, the registered length or the length shown on the side placed there by the manufacturer, they could not tell him, thats what started this hunt and why i have asked the Dept to give me the link where i can find their measurement method, i had hoped that someone here on this forum would have the answer.

As Aussie123 says there are many ways to measure the length of a boat, all i want to find out is the method used by Qld Transport for rego purposes and i want it in writting. It should not be hidden away or used and or altered as a tool to gouge more money out of boat owners through rego or as an opening for applying fines though unclear and muddie definitions.
The same sort of thing applies to flares, i asked the question a couple of years ago, no one could answer, a few said oh thats a good question and that was it. The question i asked was, The expirey date on flare is month and year, i asked was it intended to be the end od or the begining of the stated month??? You try and find and answer on the internet or in any litrature produced by the authorities, they don't have ant trouble fining you one way or the other and you no recourse.
Not sure about the builders plate i'd have to ask, but does that plate state the length?? all the samples i have seen of a builders plate don't carry the length??

John.

[oldboot]

I think that is the whole point of ISO 8666..and that is to standardise the methods and terms used for measurement.

I think to....the definition in ISO 8666 makes sense for unqualified people measuring boats.

The end to end measurement of whatever is a permenent part of the hull.

NOW..remember it is only very very recently that it mattered a cracker...until this last money grab a 20 footer would have cost the same to register as a 10 footter for recreational purposes

I can see where the issue is with the bow sprit.....becsue on a small (ish) power boat the bowsprit, is actually and anchor sprit will be quite small and definitely a permanant part of the hull... but on many sailing boats the bow sprit can be meters long and not realy part of the hull proper.

There have always been different ways of measuring boats, and for centuries these different measurements have been used for mischievious advantage.

Mostly either in pissing contests or to get on one side or the other of a government regulation.

I recon it will change the way boats are built too..

for instance... would you put a anchor sprit on a 4.5 meter boat, if it was included in the measured lenght for the purposes or regestration......be buggered.....unles it was bolted on.

Say.....who recons we will see a 4.5 meter boat with a bolt on anchor sprit;D .

The state labour government probaly have not thaught too much about this.

The politician would have asked treasury, not the department of transport when these fees were propose.......all off the statistics.
Like so many things......the only thaught about how the length was measured would have been......is there a standard about this......then well use that, not realy caring what it said and how that influences the public.

cheers

[Moonlighter]

Another thing to throw in the mix on this question is the much maligned "Australian Builder's Plate".

Since the requirement came in for new boats to have one of these plates, it plays a role in this debate too.

For your info, the definition of a boat's length in this Standard, which applies nationally, is as follows:


　
"length—
a term having the same meaning as "length of the hull" in ISO 8666.
Note: The length that is used for the purpose of applying any relevant national or international standard is the "length" as defined within the particular standard."

It then goes on to define the "relevant national standards as follows:


　
"relevant national or international standard—
a standard having similar objectives and safety outcomes to those of the specific standards specified within this standard. Such standards shall be either published by a national or international standard setting organisation or expressed within the legislation of a jurisdiction having similar notions as to the value of life as Australia.
EXAMPLES
Examples of national and international standard setting organisations:


The American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC),
the European Committee of Standardization (CEN),
International Organization for Standardization (ISO), and
Standards Australia. Examples of relevant standards within legislation:

The National Standard for Commercial Vessels; and
US Federal Code of Regulations 33."
So I guess the answer is in there, somewhere - no wonder you can't get a straight answer from the authorities - you'd need to be a QC or naval architect..:-X

If your boat has an ABP or a Builders Plate attached to it that states the Standard to which the boat has been built, it seems rational that you'd cite the length of your boat measured according to that particular Standard.

Whilst the ABP does not require boat length to be stated, some builders plates do include this info so I'd imagine that you'd cite the length as stated on that plate....to be consistent.

Does that help? Sorry!:'(

ML

[PinHead]

when I had the 30' boat it was always a 30' boat UNTIL..the berth.
As the boat had to fit entirely inside the berth then add on the sprit and duckboard and presto..boat now had to live in a 35' berth..which was an extra $500 per annum dearer than a 30' berth.

[White Pointer]

G'day,

I've had to learn this a bit and it's as vague as you all say it is. There is a formula for working out boat length in the Australian Standard and it is basically (as it seems to me) to be the length of the hull that is sealed by bulkheads and a weather deck to create the flotation chamber - which may not be level or sealed across overlapping decks.

Now, on my (nominally) 6M boat that excludes the anchor locker and the bow sprit at the bow but it may also exclude the whole transom, depending on how the transom is built. Sometimes it's a separate flotation chamber and sometimes it isn't.

The upshot of all this is that my 6M boat measures around 7M OAL and the whole BMT is 8.5M which makes for a very expensive garage.

I suggest that if you need the number to register the boat measure the weather deck. If you are designing a garage measure the whole BMT including engine up (because you will forget one day and drive the prop through the wall).

If you are working out what to buy ask the seller for registered length, weather deck length, OAL and OAL of BMT and work it out from there.

Regards,

White Pointer

[stue2]

This to has puzzled me for a long time.

A mate has a boat with molded bow sprit and molded transom steps measures 6.4m

Other mate has platey welded sprit and no steps 6.7m

My boat bolt on steps and sprit 6.2m

But they are all exactly the same center line length:confused:

Go figure!!!

[Matt76]

Good question. Mine is registered as being 6.3m. It is a 21fter. But with a tape measure it is only 6m straight up the middle stern to bow (only had a small sprit so same). To get the 6.3m you would have to measure around the gunnel.

My 5.3 measures 6m from tip to tip. Seems they can be marketed as anything the manufacturers want.

[oldboot]

As i said this fiddling with boat length will have been going on since Ogg and Grog were trying to out do each other about how big their log canoe was.

I recon this is why the ISO 8666...trying to get some standardisation.

SHHHUUUSH......keep it quiet......because next time the pollies are looking for more money that might reailise that a whole heap of boats should be bumped up a catagory.

cheers

[Captain Incredible]

I'm with DWW 13 when it comes to survey vessels. My 500 Brooker SAFARI is 5.1 metres long on the recreational rego sticker and 4.9 m long on the Certificate of Commercial Registration.

Apart from the significance in being able to log commercial sea time (vessels must be 5 metres and over for sea time to be recognised in Qld), the length is whatever you want it to be. Just be aware that when you are buying a vessel that you take your tape measure as oranges ain't oranges.

My old 27' Sharkcat was morphed in to a 3100 series when rebadged a couple of years later. (31') Really? And so are kevlacats also measured from the back of the shed not the back of the boat to make you think yours is bigger than it really is.

Keep it simple. If it is not costing you money, enjoy the bigger measurement. If there are any disadvantages, then whinge like mad. I had an issue with MSQ last year which I referred to the OMBUDSMAN and had a good result. (A resounding win, but that's another story.)

If you are not happy with the measuring of your boat and the Departmental response, give the Ombudsman a call. They are excellent.

[Jarrah Jack]

If you are not happy with the measuring of your boat and the Departmental response, give the Ombudsman a call. They are excellent.

Second that. I put the ombudsman onto the Vic marine board once. It was like putting the cat amongst the complacent pidgeons.

[oldboot]

Now now chaps, lets not stur up the trolls unless we realy need to.

If the public servants start getting too much greif from the ombudsman, the pollies will get wind of it...next thing we will be having boat length audits and all sorts of foolishness.

cheers