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Splash
26-03-2011, 09:57 PM
650 kg haines hunter hull - open water usage only.

Which one of these 2011 motors is more suited for me?

I am not considering any other motor.

I read elsewhere that Etecs are very thirsty on fuel on an open throttle - if true, how does fuel usage at WOT compare for the Suzuki4T?

which one of these motors is better for getting up on the plane quickly with a heavy boat/payload?

which motor has more low end torque?

which motor is better for limited fuel capacity?

E-tec 130HP - 184kg
Suzuki 140 HP - 191kg (edited - originally noted 194kg)


Splash

the baker
27-03-2011, 01:03 AM
Suzuki with a hydrofoil on it

Spaniard_King
27-03-2011, 06:50 AM
I recon your way to short on HP on a 650 Haines hull... should be looking for 200+

STUIE63
27-03-2011, 07:22 AM
Splash go for a ride in similar boats with both motors and make your own decision . the fuel usage will not be much difference
Stuie
Garry it was a 650kg haines not a 650 haines

Flex
27-03-2011, 07:29 AM
Whats the CC's of each motor? i usually judge a HP class by block size.

johncar
27-03-2011, 03:59 PM
Both engines would do well.

You shouldn't worry about WOT fuel consumption too much unless that ia what you intend to do?? Surely not.

I would mainly look at the consumption between 3000 - 4500 RPM

The 10kg weight difference between the two is not much of a concern if correct and not sure whether the Etec oil tank is factored in there. so they may be even more similar.

The Etec will probably a bit livelier and has lower service cost but that Etec oil is a bit costly and an extra component to deal with.
I believe that the modern 2 strokes are a bit fussier with fuel quality so you need to keep an eye on that.

Unfortunately the choice isn't just Black or White, many more things to consider, re warranty, purchase cost, resale potential.

Me personally would perhaps lean toward the Suzuki but could go either way myself.

You will just have to look at the whole deal and write out a set of pros and cons for each one and see how they stack up

Splash
27-03-2011, 04:11 PM
thanks mate - some good points raised.

the weight referred to for the etec does not include the oil container, so you are right - the weight differential is really minimal.

which one of these donks is better for trolling?

Splash

Splash
27-03-2011, 04:16 PM
Whats the CC's of each motor? i usually judge a HP class by block size.


df140 - 2044CC
etec 130 - 1727CC


big difference in CC.


Splash

Flex
27-03-2011, 04:22 PM
df140 - 2044CC
etec 130 - 1727CC
big difference in CC.


Splash

If money isnt a factor, I always go for the bigger CC engine within similar HP ranges. Bigger CC generally gives you a slighly better torque curve.

I own a 175DI evinrude(etec type). While its an awesome engine I hate managing the Oil.

Costs a bloody fortune I find. And if your headed away for 1-2 weeks fishing you need to take along enough as alot of fishing towns dont carry it.

the Suzuki 140 is a great engine, do you have a service/tech close to where you live?

While 4 stroke servicing is expensive, if your a heavy user the 2 stroke oil adds up fast.

If your a very light user(say once a month at best) It will be alot cheaper with the etec.

Splash
27-03-2011, 04:56 PM
good points raised flex.

at this stage i consider myself a light user.

can u elaborate on the hassles you experience with managing the oil in you donk?

which of these 2 donks are better for trolling?

yes, i do have a suzuki dealer nearby.

i a also looking at another donk - a 2002 Evinrude 200hp etec (see other active thread) and wonder is this 239kg donk woudl still be ok for my 5.4m haines??

Splash

aspherious
27-03-2011, 05:25 PM
good points raised flex.

at this stage i consider myself a light user.

can u elaborate on the hassles you experience with managing the oil in you donk?

which of these 2 donks are better for trolling?

yes, i do have a suzuki dealer nearby.

i a also looking at another donk - a 2002 Evinrude 200hp etec (see other active thread) and wonder is this 239kg donk woudl still be ok for my 5.4m haines??

Splash
for a light user the etec offers obvious benifits as far as the service interval is concerned and the costs, also the initial upfront cost is slightly lower.

personally i would go the suzuki only because i would be hopeless at remembering the oil and i know i would find myself at the ramp or even worse out fishing and stuffed with no oil.

as far as the 2002 evinrude 200hp etec goes most 5.4's are only rated to a max transom weight of 200kg and 90-140hp. there is some posts on here that seem to support over powering however the thought that im running the risk of damaging my boat through overwieghting the transom or twisting the body/transom with too much hp concerns me.

any ways just my thoughts

Splash
27-03-2011, 05:29 PM
many thanks for your frank feedback.

I am now leaning towards the Suzuki now.

THe weight differential is nothing when u consider the weight of the oil container and the actual weight of the DF140 is 191kg (not 194kg).

How does the DF140 handle low speed trolling for a reasonable amount of time?

Splash

antg2378
27-03-2011, 05:33 PM
I recently watched an episode of Escape with ET, they had a boat with dual motors, one E-tec and one Johnson both of same HP. They did a fuel consumption comparison at idle. Apparently the Johnson burnt 1 litre in 14 mins at idle and the E-tec burnt 200ml. I think the Johnson was in need of a decent tune up it was billowing smoke like an old Datsun.

OPTI
27-03-2011, 05:38 PM
I recently watched an episode of Escape with ET, they had a boat with dual motors, one E-tec and one Johnson both of same HP. They did a fuel consumption comparison at idle. Apparently the Johnson burnt 1 litre in 14 mins at idle and the E-tec burnt 200ml. I think the Johnson was in need of a decent tune up it was billowing smoke like an old Datsun.
that was an old carbie two stroke vs the direct injected etec;)

aspherious
27-03-2011, 05:40 PM
yeah the weights crazy when you see the 115hp is 3 kg's heavier. I was reading a post the other night regarding fuel consumption and handling in different applications and do you think i can find it now? i will repost when i find it, it included a full comparison of all the different brands at the 140-150hp range and the preformance of the suzuki was impressive.

siegfried
27-03-2011, 05:43 PM
Performance will be identical, go the Suzuki, take my word for it or do a search

johncar
27-03-2011, 05:45 PM
As far as trolling goes, it's not something that I personally do, but it is not considered good for engines generally so you still need to vary the revs a bit.

I doubt if one would actually be better than the other as far as wear and tear and performance go.

The suzuki may be slightly quieter and smoother at low RPM making it a better experience.
I currently own a Yammie 4stroke which is nice and smooth and quiet at low revs although the maker doesn't recommend prolonged low rpm use, but I have had no experience with an Etec.
I owned a 175 Evinrude Ficht Mk3 which I had no problem with whatsoever and it was very quiet and smooth at low RPM while hunting around for good ground and I figure the Etecs would be just as good also.

Splash
27-03-2011, 05:53 PM
thanks.

so, those who do troll - how do you manage the situation with your engine in terms of minimising harm to your engine? a second small troll engine?

Splash

Jabba_
27-03-2011, 08:14 PM
I have trolled for up to 10hrs straight with my 250 E-tec.. Used 105lts off fuel..
E-tecs are nothing like the old carby 2smoke or the DI it superseded, those motors would foul quiet easily, especialy the 2st when troll slow for long periods off time.. The E-tec will troll all day every day with out fouling or causing it any harm..

Splash
27-03-2011, 08:24 PM
thanks jabba.

amazing - what speed were you trolling at?

did u catch any fish?

splash

Jabba_
27-03-2011, 08:37 PM
1 black, 3 dollies. That was last year.. I haven't done much this season, been bussy with work and my boy's comps on the weekends..

My consumption was attained at 6-7kn @ 1700 -1800rpm..

If Im trolling live baits at 500rpm my consumption is even better, it goes down to 2-3ltrs and hour... I like trolling livies, makes for a very cheap day chasing pelagics...

marvin
27-03-2011, 09:22 PM
I have had 150hp and now 200hp etecs. When trolling at 2000rpm 6.5kts for 10hrs I used about 9-12lts an hour. In the 150hp a lot of black exhaust soot used to be blown out of the exhaust above the water outlet, this stained the outboard cover. So next time I did 40hrs of trolling in 4 days I left the cover off and polished it up before hand, then the black soot just washed off the engine cowls. Trolled well, no carboning up like the older carby donks. The etecs raise the billies!!! ;) The 200 doesn't put out as much exhaust soot, but I still take the cover off when doing a few days trolling, general 4000rpm cruising 25mile offshore, carbon soot is no reel problem. The oil use I get is 70 to one. 70lts fuel to 1litre of xd100 oil, at $15 a litre this needs to be facted into your running costs. What you save on services you spend on oil.... the 130hp might not use as much as the 150hp. If I had the choice and cash I would go the Zusi. I would try and buy brand new though, second hand is just someonelses problems that you buy off them, unless your really lucky to find a good one I would go a new one. Either way a new donk on the back will make you smile. I tried to trade in the 150hp etec and except for the local etec dealer no other dealers one would offer me anything over $2800 for it at 2 yrs old with 200hrs on it in perfect condition. So be informed and definently go for a run in another boat with the 4storke and the etec, this will help you decide. Good luck with it, Kev.

Splash
27-03-2011, 09:46 PM
thanks guys.

some interesting points - and i am shocked at your story of the trade in value just after 2 years for the etec!!

splash

kizza1
27-03-2011, 10:11 PM
both engines should be ample performance.
we regularly run 115hp opti's on 650kg fibreglass boats and they perform quite well. brilliant holeshot and still 45mph top speed.
The suzuki would be the better choice out of the two due to oil consumption/price of the etec.
any particular reason you are looking at just these two engines? is it due to backup service?

Splash
27-03-2011, 11:34 PM
thanks kizza.

ideally, i am chasing optimal power to weight ratio.

i think both honda and yamaha are more weight for this same output range.

i like the self adjusting timing chain on the df140 as opposed to belts on the rest.

i have not read one negative thing about the df140 and i have looked hard.

i am tempted by the better low end torque of the etec 130 and obviously better holeshot - but i have read about the potential fickleness of the required fuel ratios and quality required for correct running which is a bit offputting, plus the usual management of oil mixing thing.

why have you chosen the opti 115HP for your boat?

Splash

Lucky_Phill
28-03-2011, 07:32 AM
Choose your prop wisely.

This can make all the difference in " hole shot " or top end and in the end.... overall fuel usage.

I have a 4 blade SS Solas on my 130 4banger honda and it makes 2 stroke skippers eyes pop with the hole shot..... :o ;D

Then again, top end speed is limited. Having said that, how many times can one travel at WOT on the open ocean ???? :-?

MY boat is propped for bar work, beach launching, hence bottom end grunt.

I cannot comment on either of the options you are considering for your boat , other than................ why would anyone go to the trouble of oil management ? 4 stroke all the way for me !!! ;D

good luck...............




LP.
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Jarrah Jack
28-03-2011, 07:43 AM
I have a 4 blade SS Solas on my 130 4banger honda and it makes 2 stroke skippers eyes pop with the hole shot..... :o ;D



No doubt the've had a big night the night before.:)

business class
28-03-2011, 08:10 AM
thanks jabba.

amazing - what speed were you trolling at?

did u catch any fish?

splash

I had a 140 Suzuki and never had any problems trolling ever, and ive done many of days at low speeds with her. Now i own a 225 Honda and still do alot of trolling and havent had any dramas and ill tow for 10 hrs a day somedays. You will find you will do around the 2300-2400 rpm to do 7knots on average and it wont hurt your engine at all so dont worry about that. IMO id go the Suzuki 140 as she is a very reliable engine and will do everything you need it to do.

Splash
28-03-2011, 08:35 AM
Thanks people.

If I went down the DF140 path, what should I be expecting from the dealer for rigging up new motor and supply of guages and controls and and what cost to do this rigging?

Splash

zakster
28-03-2011, 08:50 AM
Hi,
We had a df140 fitted complete for 15,500. Two months ago.

cheers.

johncar
28-03-2011, 09:46 AM
I had a 140 Suzuki and never had any problems trolling ever, and ive done many of days at low speeds with her. Now i own a 225 Honda and still do alot of trolling and havent had any dramas and ill tow for 10 hrs a day somedays. You will find you will do around the 2300-2400 rpm to do 7knots on average and it wont hurt your engine at all so dont worry about that. IMO id go the Suzuki 140 as she is a very reliable engine and will do everything you need it to do.

Yeah sorry, in my post re trolling, I was just refering to the Yamaha owners manual where it stated prolonged low engine revs is not recommended and I take that to mean idle speed or very low speed trolling.
I doubt if it would be relevant to offshore trolling which is at higher speeds and RPM's.

johncar
28-03-2011, 09:50 AM
I also fitted a 15" x 4 blade Solas prop to my 150 Yamaha and like the performance. A little top end speed loss but great low down grip and holds the boat nice and steady in the rough.

kizza1
01-04-2011, 03:24 PM
hi splash,
the reason we run the opti's is because of the power to weight ratio, the fuel consumption, the warrenty and the price.
when your talking $13700 fitted they are good value for money. with a built in troll facility in the guages it is a perfect all rounder


a 135hp v6 opti will give you maximum performance to weight as they are 195kgs but a 2.5ltr engine.

like i was saying above though on a 650kg hull you will find that the right 115hp will be ample.

just so you know the mercury fourstroke runs a timing chain that doesnt need to be serviced also

NQ FISH
01-04-2011, 03:56 PM
Hi Splash
I run 2 130 e-tecs both done just on 300 hrs have not had a single problem with them, dont have a problem with oil either. Individual choice 4 or 2 stroke have had both, 4s were also good but i am more impressed with the e-tecs at the present time will tell.

Cheers

Michael Sharp
01-04-2011, 06:08 PM
Go with the 140suzi you will be thankfull in the long run, qauranted

Splash
01-04-2011, 08:21 PM
.......... some great posts......... thanks

kizza1 - why is the suzuki much more expensive (than the opti) for the relativley same weight and output?

splash

mlaagtho
02-04-2011, 02:08 PM
I have two DF140 motors and do a lot of trolling. Some times I will troll for 8 hours at a time with no problems at all .In fact they are quieter than trolling with a 8 hp kicker motor. There is mention that you could have oil dillution (petrol in the oil) but I have not yet heard on anybody here having that problem

Splash
05-04-2011, 09:38 PM
i have decided i will be importing a new suzuki 140.

i have liaised with many suzuki dealers in usa and i can have an imported motor for around $9k usd - excluding prop, guages, etc.

at $1.04 AUD = $1.00 USD, i can get it for less than $9k.

There is no import duty on outboard motors from usa, add $400 for shipping and around $860 GST, it is still a damn cheap deal.

i can get the gauges, prop, etc. and install at a different time.

Splash

Flex
06-04-2011, 06:19 AM
Well done splash. who did you end up buying from and importing with?

As for duty are you 100% certain. When I imported my boat I found import duty is only exempt on things actually built in the USA, is the suzuki built there or do they import them?

Splash
06-04-2011, 07:45 AM
no dealer selected yet - still wheeling and dealing to get the best deals form 2-3 dealers.

i have it in writing from Australian Customs that due to free trade agreement we have with USA, marine outboards that are imported from USA are exempt from duties.

Obviously, GST is still payable though.

I do not know if the suzuki is built in USA.

SPlash

cormorant
06-04-2011, 07:48 AM
Is there a reason not to buy gauges controls and cables overseas. I see them a lot cheaper than here ? Get a few waterpumps and all service stuff along with a manual to top the deal off.

You may also be able to buy the software and lead so you are not bound by the local dealer. Tell em you are in a remote area.

Get an agreement that you only need to send the part that is broken back for warranty not the whole motor. Have seen a friend have to export his complete motor after a failure. Would have been a lot cheaper and quicker if he only had to airfreight the powerhead.

As for props. If you know a sistership here in Aus that has the same set up you should be able to get very close with teh correct prop. They are a 1/3 the cost so no big deal buying one that gets you very close.

ozscott
06-04-2011, 07:50 AM
Make sure you have good insurance too mate - transport insurance.

Cheers

Splash
06-04-2011, 08:19 AM
i plan to buy the cables, etc from OS, but at a later time.

This way, I do not have to pay GST on these items (if < $1k in total) if they are not included with the shipped motor.

For the imported motor, I understand Suzuki will only cover warranty of their parts/motor if I buy from a USA dealer and have it installed on my hull by them.

So, I do not think I will be able to claim anything on warranty as I am importing the motor in a shipped box.

Definitely will have shipping insurance!

Do Suzuki make their motoros in USA?


SPlash

Jarrah Jack
06-04-2011, 08:24 AM
Good on ya Splash. there are some good valid points by both Cormorant and Ozzie. I buy parts for my zuk from the US so I'd be looking at all the things cormorant mentioned as the dealer should be able to fit a lot of goodies in the crate with the motor.

Good luck with it and thanks for keeping us updated on the process.

Edit...Just saw the GST reason which makes sense but no reason why you couldn't include those purchases in your negotiation and have them sent seperately on different invoices.. perhaps.

oldie
06-04-2011, 02:23 PM
Do Suzuki make their motoros in USA?


No Suzuki Motors are made in Japan

cormorant
06-04-2011, 02:41 PM
10% - I'd just have it all in one crate in one shipment and know I have it . Shipping is done on a volume basis as much as weight. Freight for seperate package will exceed the $100 easily.

Are you going to get the USA dealer to run the motor and predeliver it so you know it is perfect? Do they do that? Feel like buying a cheap old $100 hull to have it fitted to to get warranty?;D With no official warranty those prices are getting rather fine on the benefits if you encounter a manufacturing fault? A stuffed head or something it it will be a big issue. Still wouldn't stop me as very very few would be dead out of the crate.

A few local dealers are getting really snotty and not fitting and setting up motors they haven't sold . Make sure you have a dealer of good marine mechanic who will do it and knows what they are doing.

ranga7
06-04-2011, 02:42 PM
no dealer selected yet - still wheeling and dealing to get the best deals form 2-3 dealers.

i have it in writing from Australian Customs that due to free trade agreement we have with USA, marine outboards that are imported from USA are exempt from duties.

Obviously, GST is still payable though.

I do not know if the suzuki is built in USA.

SPlash

Hi splash i'm looking to import a 175 4s suzi, when you find the best dealer could you P.M me with there details, be much appriciated. thanx mate.

business class
06-04-2011, 03:16 PM
[quote=kizza1;1268773]hi splash,
the reason we run the opti's is because of the power to weight ratio, the fuel consumption, the warrenty and the price.
when your talking $13700 fitted they are good value for money. with a built in troll facility in the guages it is a perfect all rounder

:-? Ok.... Not too start a whole 2 vs 4 issue here but when you say fuel consumption do you mean that the opti is better then the 4 stroke on fuel? I have had this arguement with a few people now who own opti's and say theres is better then a 4, however when we finish the day fishing and head back to the fuel jetty i always see an extra 50 to 60 ltrs enter there tank:o . Same size boat and i have a bigger engine:-?

Astro
06-04-2011, 03:40 PM
DF140 here on 700kg boat, went through the same process in 2006 and ended up getting the DF140 johno, never looked back since. Not one single problem with it in over 4 years. We got around 55mph out of it without the targa top. Our boat only has a 55ltr main tank and a 30ltr spare and we make numerous trips out to the banks for a fullday on less then one tank, and thats going around a few spots, and only once did we have to plug in the 30ltr spare due to really rough conditions.

Super Quiet, Reliable with Heaps of power, there's a reason alot of charter operators use this engine.

Splash
06-04-2011, 08:17 PM
thanks people.

fantastic responses by all and it has been a very healthy thread...

i still have not selected the dealer.

i have shortlisted down to 2 dealers, and on thinking what Cormorant states about the extras, i may well consider the deal for the whole lot as one package..

i will let u all know what i decide over the next few days.

i love the fuel stories - and i am absolutley sold on the suzuki df140!!

running on that sort of efficiency you all speak of - is still 'pie in the sky' stuff for me and to have that sort of fuel effciency Astro speaks of - would be one my ultimate life's dreams in life believe it or not.... :-)

Splash

White Pointer
06-04-2011, 09:56 PM
good points raised flex.

at this stage i consider myself a light user.

can u elaborate on the hassles you experience with managing the oil in you donk?

which of these 2 donks are better for trolling?

yes, i do have a suzuki dealer nearby.

i a also looking at another donk - a 2002 Evinrude 200hp etec (see other active thread) and wonder is this 239kg donk woudl still be ok for my 5.4m haines??

Splash

G'day,

The 140HP Suzuki or ETEC equivalent should be plenty of power for a 5.4M boat.

A 200HP engine would be over the top and I doubt that the maximum transom weight would allow it, but I may be wrong.

The two critical things are what Haines says on the Australian Builders Plate (ABP) (1) the maximum HP and (2) the maximum engine weight. You must not exceed these maximums.

If you boat doesn't have an ABP check your Owner's Manual or contact Haines and ask them.

Let us know what you find out.

Regards,

White Pointer

Splash
07-04-2011, 07:24 AM
thanks.

i will not go with the 200HP motor anymore.

I will go with a 140HP which is under the specified max HP and weight.

SPlash

Swanie1975
13-06-2011, 12:09 PM
how did you get on in the end? any updates?

cheers ryan