Losing Driver's Licence & Marine Licence

[novice23]

Contrary to popular belief just had confirmation from qld transport that you can have your motor vehicle driver's licence disqualified and still maintain your marine licence.

[Lachie1]

Yeah but if you blow over 0.05 on the water you will lose your motor vehicle licence.. Thats the problem

Lachie

[Scott nthQld]

Yeah but if you blow over 0.05 on the water you will lose your motor vehicle licence.. Thats the problem

Lachie

Actually i don't think its a problem at all. I'm a firm believer if you lose one licence for wrongdoings, you should lose all licences

[white patch]

lose all licences. Would that include marriage?

[finga]

Do marriage licenses exist?

[bennykenny]

yeah only marriage celebrants have a license to wed!!!!

[spinkway]

Hi guys

If it is night time and you are all anchored for the night with your lights on, can you have a beer or 2?

And if you are anchored, go a shore, put up your tent and sleep there, can you have a beer then?

Is it common in QLD for people to get breathalised? How many police do you think would be out at anyone time?

Thanks

J

[Marlin_Mike]

Hi guys

If it is night time and you are all anchored for the night with your lights on, can you have a beer or 2?

And if you are anchored, go a shore, put up your tent and sleep there, can you have a beer then?

Is it common in QLD for people to get breathalised? How many police do you think would be out at anyone time?

Thanks

J

Master of the Vessel still responsible and cannot be over the limit.

Master of the Vessel still responsible for the vessel, even though you are on shore. What stops him having a few beers then getting back in the boat? Again, the Master is still responsible.

Last one, hard to say.

[Captain Seaweed]

I have been breathalized once

[Axl]

I have been breathalised twice in 9 years of owning boats. Once on the water and once back at the ramp.

[Maddac]

Hi guys

If it is night time and you are all anchored for the night with your lights on, can you have a beer or 2?

And if you are anchored, go a shore, put up your tent and sleep there, can you have a beer then?

Is it common in QLD for people to get breathalised? How many police do you think would be out at anyone time?

Thanks

J

If you are anchored there for 24+ hours, then you can be over .05. You would probably need provisions to substantiate the claim though.

[Scott nthQld]

you guys know what I meant, lose one licence to operate boats, cars, trucks, bikes lose them all.

According to the law, you are not allowed to register a blood alcohol level over 0.05 on the water UNLESS you are moored at a sanctioned and designated mooring, just at anchor does not count. If you are moored, and are having a few beers, you aren't allowed to cast off until you are under the limit. Bit like going to the pub, you can park the car, go inside and have a beer, but aren't allowed to go to your car until you are under the limit.

[ozscott]

From memory and I would have to look up the TORUM, in QLD you can be over the limit providing if at anchor you dont evince an intention to be under way...ie its different to having the keys for a car, in the car, whilst over the limit where you are charged with being in control of a motor vehicle whilst under the influence...its been many years though so please look it up. For me I would be reluctant to get on the sauce anyway with a boat, boat have done at Myora near shore an overnight mooring and no need or intention to get under way.

Cheers

[TheRealAndy]

The law states you need to be under the limit whilst driving or in charge of the vessel. I think you would be hard pressed arguing that you are not in charge of the vessel whilst at anchor, but magistrates are funny creatures and one might disagree.

The full legislation can be found in the Queensland Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995

Yup, says road use management but also covers boats (and animals :) )

[tigermullet]

Hi guys

If it is night time and you are all anchored for the night with your lights on, can you have a beer or 2?

And if you are anchored, go a shore, put up your tent and sleep there, can you have a beer then?

Is it common in QLD for people to get breathalised? How many police do you think would be out at anyone time?

Thanks

J

At anchor you would be classed as in charge of the vessel. Moorings are different.

Last I heard a tent could be classed as a 'dwelling' - same as your own home where you may drink to your heart's content. But if you decide to go for a drive in a car or boat then the .05 would apply.

I have been breathalized twice in ??? How many years has it been since breathalizing was introduced? I've never been breathalized on the water. Which is good, I'm not complaining.

[death_ship]

water police at tangas told me u must be under.05 at all times. they will and do turn a blind eye if u intend to stay overnight. but if your anchor drags for example and u operate the boat you will be charged.

[Vitamin Sea]

water police at tangas told me u must be under.05 at all times. they will and do turn a blind eye if u intend to stay overnight. but if your anchor drags for example and u operate the boat you will be charged.


Always thought that was the case with the blind eye, otherwise any given week end, not to mention xmas & New Years they could book 4 1/2 boats out of 5

[Crocodile]

The great Australian seafarer Alan Villiers said "Only fools and passengers drink at sea".

[Noelm]

I have never been breath teasted in my boat, or for that matter even know anyone who has been tested down here, so for some reason we are either lucky, or the Police don't care/dont have enough people/dont consider the problem to be big, or perhaps some other reason.

[timddo]

I can't see a problem with me at anchor - usually two anchors if i'm camp there for the night. Just take the keys out of the ignition and don't keep them in your pocket.

I saw on TV the other night - maybe a few weeks ago that you could be fined if your drunk passager tempory holds the steering wheel while you grab a drink. For him tempory holding it for maybe 1 sec, he is assume controll and will be tested and fined.

I wonder if i'm in breach if my 7 year boy holds the steering wheel while i watch travelling at 6knots.

[Noelm]

technically it makes no difference how many anchors you have out, you need to read the defintiion of moored and anchored, at anchor, YOU are in control/charge of the boat, and you need to be under .05, pretty clear and simple rule.

[TheRealAndy]

technically it makes no difference how many anchors you have out, you need to read the defintiion of moored and anchored, at anchor, YOU are in control/charge of the boat, and you need to be under .05, pretty clear and simple rule.

In Queensland there is no definition of moored or anchored in relation to alcohol, it merely states 'whilst you are in charge of a vessel'

[Noelm]

Andy, the law is quite clearly stated and is the same worldwide (like lights and markers) it refers to being made fast to permanent objects (like jetties and pylons and moorings) as distinct to being anchored which is a temporary device and requires an anchor light to be displayed at night, whereas moored/docked/berthed there is no light required to be displayed.

[the baker]

You are right! about being able to keep it but it comes down to the circumstances and the courts, this from the act.

Suspension of a marine licence
If the holder of any marine licence has been convicted of a drink driving offence in a road motor vehicle, their marine licence can be cancelled or suspended.

Alcohol rules

Recreational ships
The skipper must have a blood alcohol limit of less than 0.05, the same rules as on the road. The skipper is also responsible for the safety of the passengers and should be responsible for their alcohol consumption. The effects of alcohol are enhanced while on the water due to the sun, wind, waves and constant motion. Reflexes and response times to emergencies are slowed and swimming ability deteriorates considerably.

Skippers of recreational boats should also be aware that, when their boat is anchored, it may still be considered to be used for navigation, and the blood alcohol limit applies. The limit does not change unless the boat is securely moored in a marina, to a jetty or wharf or on a swing mooring.


Commercial ships
The rules for commercial ships are different to those for recreational ships. The blood alcohol limit for a skipper whilst in charge of a class 1 commercial ship is zero.

Section 79 of the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 (PDF, 1.2MB) refers to driving and so on whilst under influence of liquor or drugs or with prescribed concentration of alcohol in blood or breath.

Dave..

[oldboot]

The only place where there might be some argument is that if you were at anchor in a designated small craft mooring area.

Otherwise it is pretty clear, both in international rules of the sea ( that do apply in australian waters) and the state legeslation......that if you are at anchor, you are still in charge of the vessel.

Even more......because of your internationaly recognised responsibility as skipper.......you have a duty of care for any drunkards aboard........so if a bloke gets pissed and falls overboard and drowns.......you can be held responsible for his death.

Soo many people do not grasp the extensive and onerous responsibilities of a skipper.

cheers

[ozscott]

If you are at anchor, properly anchored, with the intention of sleeping overnight say, and the means to do so, you should be ok, but it always a risk. Its like sleeping in the rear seat of your car pissed with the keys in your pocket, as opposed to sleeping in the driver's seat with keys in ignition - the police have a policy of not charging then. Whether they charge or not though its up to a Magistrate to determine what "being in charge of" in relation to a vessel or vehicle means. You dont want to get yourself to that point obviously, but for me, I would be reasonably content to more up, say at Myora in a desginated spot well anchored.

Cheers

PS. This view of course is my own personal one (not legal advice) and does not deal with the broader issues of skipper responsibility at common law or under other statutes. Cheers

[oldboot]

The regardless of what anybody might think, while at anchor and aboard, you are responsible for and in charge of the vessel.

There is no comparison to land bound vehicles........take any land bassed vehicle, pull it up somewhere safe and secure it by putting it in gear and applying the hand brake and unless someone comes and moves it, it will pretty much stay where it is put and cause no harm to anybody.
Should said vehicle all of a sudden burst into flames.....all you need do is get out and step away to a safe distance, where you can sit on a rock or under a tree and wait for help to arrive.

A boat at anchor on the hand, it is a far from secure item, even in the best of conditions with a good anchor it will move quite some distance on its anchor.

If there is some sort of problem and you have to get out, well that is a different story.

Remember too that the rules apply to all marine vessels regardless of size.

Every year, bad things happen to people who underestimate the extent of their responsibilities and the consequences arround boats.

Don't worry about the pissy little drink drive charge and loss of licence........if things go badly you could be liable for a great deal more than that.

If your boat causes damage, not only might you not be driving, you might be living in a cardboard box...iff you survive.

cheers

[TheRealAndy]

Andy, the law is quite clearly stated and is the same worldwide (like lights and markers) it refers to being made fast to permanent objects (like jetties and pylons and moorings) as distinct to being anchored which is a temporary device and requires an anchor light to be displayed at night, whereas moored/docked/berthed there is no light required to be displayed.

Reference please. All I can find is in TrantOp relating to alcohol whilst in charge.

With regards to anchor lights, this is ColRegs and has nothing to do with alcohol. Furthermore this requirement is for boats in navigable waters and does not specify anything about moorings

From what I can find, its interpretation, not explicitly written. When I have a little more time (aka when I hit the piss tonight!!) I will see if I can find some case law on this very matter.

[Noelm]

I will find a link to a reference, it is all quite clear in my old text book from when I did my Coxswains.

[Aussie123]

A skipper remains in charge of any vessel at all times unless the vessel is fixed fast to shore or anchored within the boundaries of a designated mooring area.

[TheRealAndy]

A skipper remains in charge of any vessel at all times unless the vessel is fixed fast to shore or anchored within the boundaries of a designated mooring area.

Where did this come from?

[TheRealAndy]

I have just emailed MSQ for a more definitive answer. Also trying to get hold of a laywer friend that knows this legislation quite well.

[Noelm]

call the "Centre for Maritime policy" at Wollongong Uni, or consult my text book, it is quite clear, and is what was just posted (more or less) it has to do with being made fast to permanent structures and such.

[TheRealAndy]

call the "Centre for Maritime policy" at Wollongong Uni, or consult my text book, it is quite clear, and is what was just posted (more or less) it has to do with being made fast to permanent structures and such.

Ahh, there ya go. QLD v NSW. Not written into qld legislation as far as I can tell so far. I did find some similar stuff in Victorial legislation though.

[Noelm]

no, no, it is NOT NSW, it is Australia/world wide, same is the lights and marker buoy system, I will dig out my text book and see if I can scan the page.

[ozscott]

...
...
Should said vehicle all of a sudden burst into flames.....all you need do is get out and step away to a safe distance, where you can sit on a rock or under a tree and wait for help to arrive.

...

Not if your car is under you house when it bursts into flames.

The TORUM does not distinguish between vehicle, tram or vessel. But clearly there are practical differences.

Cheers

[TheRealAndy]

no, no, it is NOT NSW, it is Australia/world wide, same is the lights and marker buoy system, I will dig out my text book and see if I can scan the page.

After the legislation though (and most international maritime law is legislated by the commonwealth and/or the states).

[ozscott]

You wont get a clear answer from your mate Andy - its not capable of pigeon hole stuff...in comes down to an interpretation of "in charge of" the vessel. I'm a lawyer (albeit no crime any more) and Im not giving straight answers because it depends entirely on the interpretation of the facts which are usually different (even subtly in each case). I would be keen to hear what you mate says though assuming he practices in crime. I have made some enquiries about what the water police view is in QLD though which might provide some more general and practical guidance.

Cheers

[Aussie123]

Maritime rules and regulations are world wide.
USL and Colregs to name a couple and our maritime laws are a mix of both.
After that we have State and Federal laws
These sections are based upon USL Code but have been rewritten to suite our own waterways and are known or referred to as Hybrid USL Code.
Each state or territory has its own set of Hybrid USL Codes in which things like alcohol use and levels are written and gazetted as law but the main thing to remember is the full and proper USL Code is our maritime law.
It is within this full law that you will find who and when a person is deemed to be in charge of a vessel.
After that you apply the local Hybrid USL Code and you have your correct answer.

It really is a basic and common sense rule and not very hard to interprate if you think of any situation regarding anchoring and drinking.
If you are in/on a designated mooring(marina,swing mooring,wharf,jetty,slipway,hardstand,fixed to the shoreline)ect you are not deemed to be using the vessel or in charge.
In this situation you do not need to display nav lights after sunset.
Now if you are in any situation whether day or night think about if you would need to display nav lights for that exact same thing at night and you are then deemed to be still in charge of the vessel therefore subject to the rules and regulations of the sea/waterway that you are navigating.
In other words if you did that same activity at night and needed to display lights you are still in charge of that vessel.

[ozscott]

Aussie - that is your interpretation of the law, but it is not anywhere near that clear under TORUM which is the legislation in QLD that criminalises being in charge of a vessel whilst drunk. Can you point out to me where international law, as applicable in Australian territorial waters, makes it an offence to be in charge of a vessel and that being in charge is when the vessel is other than at a swing mooring etc?

Cheers

PS. There are some blurring of the lines here in terms of potential civil liability versus criminal too.

[Dignity]

even the lawyers disagree - when I used to camp at South Straddie we would be at anchor and have a stern rope back to land, now reading some of the arguements above it seems I would be safe but the Water Police told us to ensure that there was always someone who could take responsibility of the vessel in an emergecy, it didn't have to be the driver or passenger but could be one of the other campers. They were quite clear on this matter as it was not a mooring, fixed jetty etc.
This was brought home to us one day when a severe storm literally hit us out of nowhere and boats needed to be rescued/secured. Fortunately the club I was with were quite good at following the rules and there were enough sober people on hand to do the securing of vessels including those drifting houseboats that the hirers let out with almost no chain and tiny anchors that would barely hold a rubber duckie.

As a pleb I will go with what the WP told me.

[Shawn 66]

BLOODY HELL ,
Lost me.
Shawn:-? :-? :-?

[QF3 MROCP]

If the only licensed skipper on board was over 0.05 reading while you are out on the water, what happens to the boat? Would the QPS take you and it all the way back to shore?

At least a car you can park it on the road side and come back the next day..

[marto78]

If everyone is sitting in the boat fishing and drinking and no one admits to being skipper or in charge of the boat who are they going to book?

[Jabiru658]

who are they going to book?

I would assume that the owner of the vessel would be booked if on board, if not then the person that the owner rented or loaned the vehicle to.

[oldboot]

Some of these issues we have had before.

We can not rely on finding everything in the QLD legeslation, because it is assumed that agreed national and international rules and standards apply even if they are not specificaly called.

As I understand it "in law" there are 4 main differing positions.

1. What it is wise to do to be immune from prosecution.

2. What a police officer or government official has the will and or the ability to prosecute in a given situation.

3. What a lawyer can manage to sucessfully argue in a court in relation to something prosecuted under the letter and intent of the law in a given situation.

4. What lawyer can manage to argue in a civil case where you are acted on by another party, where even if you win it could be very costly.

There is only 1 position that puts you in a position of strength in this matter, and that is not being intoxicated in the first place.

There are more than a few people who are cheerfull and vigorous consumers of alcahol, but they will neither consume nor have alcahol aboard their boats.

We have seen what happens when someone in power gets a bee in their bonnet over an issue, with the Navigation Lights Blitz of a while ago.
The water police wrote so many tickets their pens were running dry.

Imagine what would happen if someone got a bee in their bonnet over alchol and boats..... I recon the government could solve its debt crisis over a weekend and lots a blokes would be walking to work on Monday.

Non-compliance on soo many issues at a range of levels is indemic in recreational boating and everybody knows.......its like the recreational boating community is standing there bent over with its trousers down saying "spank me".

Some day, someone will and hard, all it will take, is someone close to a politician to get run down by a drunkard boatie and it will be on for young and old.

Meanwhile, get pissed and go boating, so many people seem to think it is a good idea.


cheers

[ozscott]

...

Meanwhile, get pissed and go boating, so many people seem to think it is a good idea.


cheers

I dont disagree with most of your post but as to this last bit I assume your acerbic comment at the end is aimed at others as opposed to anyone who has posted here. I dont see anyone on this thread advocating getting pissed while on a boat. It started with the question of loss of one affecting loss of another. Having said that knowing the position under the State Criminal law is a useful bit of info.

Cheers

[robsue]

bit of a different case, but i heard the ranger over straddie had his rod set, went back to his vechicle on the beach, opened a stubbie and along came a new copper to the island, breathtested him, couldnt get him there as it was his first beer, so booked him for drinking in a public place
who doesnt have a drink on the beach over the island while camping/fishing on the beach............

[TheRealAndy]

You wont get a clear answer from your mate Andy - its not capable of pigeon hole stuff...in comes down to an interpretation of "in charge of" the vessel. I'm a lawyer (albeit no crime any more) and Im not giving straight answers because it depends entirely on the interpretation of the facts which are usually different (even subtly in each case). I would be keen to hear what you mate says though assuming he practices in crime. I have made some enquiries about what the water police view is in QLD though which might provide some more general and practical guidance.

Cheers

Lol ozcott, you never get a clear answer from a lawyer! I have read a few first year law school books in an attempt to decide if I want to study law, so I kinda understand why. The books worked btw, doing my QTAC entry now!

Not really after a clear answer though, just after the relevent bits of legislation. All law is open to interpretation, and I guess until there is case law specific to the situation at hand one will never really have a better answer.

Anyhow, cant get hold of my mate, so tried another laywer friend, cant get hold of him either. I do have a contact for a guy at MSQ who I think is a lawyer, so will dig up his details and fire off the question.

[the baker]

Section 79 of the Transport Operations Act, it is all there and some common sense too.

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/T/TrantOpRUA95.pdf

[ozscott]

Section 79 of the Transport Operations Act, it is all there and some common sense too.

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/T/TrantOpRUA95.pdf

Mate I have referred to TORUM (the Act's acronym) as others have but the answer is not there - just part of the answer. Cheers

[oldboot]

I dont disagree with most of your post but as to this last bit I assume your acerbic comment at the end is aimed at others as opposed to anyone who has posted here. I dont see anyone on this thread advocating getting pissed while on a boat. It started with the question of loss of one affecting loss of another. Having said that knowing the position under the State Criminal law is a useful bit of info.

Cheers

Alas...... so few appreciate satire.

One thing I have learned in life......trouble and sorrow always accompanies alcahol......if you must indulge in alcahol....... best to do so at a time and in a place where you are able to cope with a little more trouble and sorrow.

cheers

[Pirate Pete]

no, no, it is NOT NSW, it is Australia/world wide, same is the lights and marker buoy system, I will dig out my text book and see if I can scan the page.

That is not entirely correct it is not the same worldwide, Australia operates in an IALA A Buoyage system which basically means Red (Can shape) to your port side when entering a harbour, however, IALA B (system used in Japan, America etc.) have a Green (Can shape) to port when entering a harbour.

Pete

[oldboot]

Yes it is the same world wide...almost the only difference is which direction of bouyage standard is chosen......both bouyage standards are specified in the international rules.... the rules do not change.

It is simply a matter of the bouage direction convention being entering or leaving port.

The bouyage convention has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of " being in charge of a vessel" and "being in a fit state to be in charge".....both are internationaly mandated...and very very long standing concepts.

the only difference is that in this country we have specified a specific level of intoxication by alcahol that someone is considered to be unfit at.

cheers