How to start a flooded 2 stroke???

[fishnNauru]

Hey All,
Flooded the 91' Johnson 15hp again this morning and couldn't get her to go again b4 I gave up and went home.
She started and ran fine before i put it in the water, but then she was a no go.
She started and ran fine yesterday but whould not restart today.
I had no wd40 or any such starter help in a can.
Eventully the pull start jammed, so I was done pulling.

My usual start up procedure is:-
connect and prime fuel line
open choke
full throttle in neutral (it is locked out from full throttle by the gear lever)
pull a few times till she runs abit and dies
choke in
full throttle in neutral
pull a time or two till she starts and off we go.

I've started it many times this way, but every once in a while I flood it somehow and have no been able to re-start her once flooded.:(
Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks.

[finga]

disconnect fuel line.
full throttle and no choke until she fires.

Or take plugs out and pull the cord 20 times to clear the fuel in the bores and crankcase, reinsert plugs and have another pull.

Or leave it for 1/2 hour and come back and try again.

Or buy a Honda with a magic button on it that says START. Just press that and away ya go.

[nigelr]

Do you run the fuel out of the carbies after each trip?
If not, skip the bulb priming and see how that goes.
Also, make sure the fuel is fresh, is the boat standing for weeks between runs, if so drain the line and bulb of stale fuel before use.
Check your plugs, are they oiled?
How long since you changed them out?
Cheers.

[fishnNauru]

plugs are new, a couple of months ago.
I use it atleast once a week if not more, so the fuel does not go bad.
I run it at 50:1 like johnson recommends...FYI.
Hey finga if I draw on a little magic start button will that help??? Push on it too while pulling the start rope...:P ;)
I tried disconnecting the fuel line and giving her 10 pulls this morning but it did not help.
I did not have the tools for the plugs etc...If i leave them in the car they may not be there when I get back :)
Thanks for the Help and keep the advice coming.

[PADDLES]

mate, this is happening enough to make you suss on the carby surely? pull it down and make sure your jets are all nice and clean and double check your needle and seat and float height.

i've had a needle gum up recently which prevents it closing off properly and then floods the freckle out of your motor. use some carby cleaner and make sure it slides in and out of it's little hole nice and smoooooooth.

[FNQCairns]

have you disregarded the advice given in the last thread or have i got it wrong??

What is full throttle in neutral...full throttle?? or locked out full throttle??? How did you go getting the linkages properly synced?

[Roughasguts]

What makes you think it's flooding????
It doesn't sound like flooding to me, are the plugs dripping wet when you pull them out after trying to start the motor ? Is there a strong petrol smell?.

Anyway use 1/3 throttle to start with choke.
But it could be a switch Eg: cut out switch so it won't start in gear is sticky or similar.

By the way WD-40 won't help start a motor, unless alll the leads are wet.
Fly spray would be better than that stuff.

Cheers.

[NTMID8]

Im with roughasguts, if its flooded and you have it wide open throttle then a few pulls will suck all the fuel out of the bowl. It sounds more like an electrical fault ie not enough/strong enough spark.

[stue2]

Im with roughasguts, if its flooded and you have it wide open throttle then a few pulls will suck all the fuel out of the bowl. It sounds more like an electrical fault ie not enough/strong enough spark.

Me to.
New plug dont always mean good spark. 20 years of good service and now shes getting old.
If it's flooded you will get it started. If it's spark you may not........... untill it warms up....maybe

WD 40 = Water Dispersant batch #40

cheers Stu

[LittleSkipper]

From my past experience it sounds like your High Tension leads to the plugs have packed it in.

[fishnNauru]

So I busted the pull start and am waiting on the new part to get here...in the mean time I pulled off the carb and put a kit through it...though it all looks good and new like it was done recently, like b4 i bought it...
How do I check the float height Paddles?
I'm not sure on the sync thing that has been mentioned, I notice that as the throttle butterfly opens there are 3 holes in a line the 1st 2 look the same size and the last is bigger...obviously these have more air or fuel or both but not sure how these are meant to relate to the throttle and especially the full throttle lock out in neutral...I presume that maybe a hole or two are meant to open at full throttle in neutral, but not the last... anyone got any ideas with specifics on carbies???
The motor has no kill switch, the wires have been disconnected and hot wrapped or something.
Yes FNQCairns full throttle in neutral is locked out full throttle. It started and ran fine after I got it home when i did the same thing the other day, which made me think there was no major problem, and that i just flooded it and did not know how to restart it. I'm not trying to disreguard advice...but when it started and ran fine I assumed that nothing was broken.
Roughasguts I have been able to start it in gear b4 no worries, so I guess there is no cut out switch for that...or it was disabled like the kill switch on the tiller.
NTMID8 I was underthe impression if you had spark it was all good...are u saying there are degrees of getting spark and that it will run fine one time and within a few minutes the spark situation will change and it won't run then?
Twindragons are the high tension leads the plug wires that go from the coil to the spark plugs?
I've had the motor just over a year...so I wish I'd have had 20yrs of good service from it, stu2...i'd sure know more about it, and what i was doing if i did :)
Thanks for the ideas and keep em coming.

[PADDLES]

a general rule of thumb is to just make sure the needle/seat valve moves freely and works ok. to set your float height properly you'll need a manual to get the correct method as it's usually different for different carby's, but it's not rocket science either and is usually just an angle of the float for when the needle hits the seat and stops the fuel flow. for most carbys the needle just gets pushed up by a little steel flap that is part of the float and you just bend the flap up or down to adjust where the needle hits the seat in ralation to the angle of the float. i've probably just made things sound way more difficult than they are, but if you've got half a mechanical mind just take the float bowl off the carby and you quickly figure out how it all works.

I'm with you on the spark though, i've only ever had spark or no spark with cdi ignitions and nothing in between. check for a nice blue spark though.

[oldboot]

Um... my first course of action would be to get a service manual.......clymer and seloc will still publish a manual suitable ( arround $40-70 australian ) ( there are sources on line) or get a CD rom off ebay....most of these manuals will cover a range of similar motors...and they take younthru most things step by step.

A good read of one of these will guide you thru and set you straight on many things.

You realy do need to work thru a proper fault finding sequence systematicly.

starting with.....are you using the correct starting sequence.......throttle wide open may not be correct.

By the time I count up motorised power tools and a couple of outboards, I have like 10 or so 2 stroke motors arround here.....none of the start easily if the starting procedure is not correct and some differ.........my wifes EX always had problems starting the brushcutter.......it starts for easily for me every time and has done for the last 15 years......correct starting sequence.

cheers

[Jarrah Jack]

Um............my wifes EX always had problems starting the brushcutter........

cheers

I'm hopeless with the washing machine......

Nauru...Go to manuals.com you should be able to find a manual there for about $8...I've found it better than the seloc for the zuk.

[stue2]

I'm with you on the spark though, i've only ever had spark or no spark with cdi ignitions and nothing in between. check for a nice blue spark though.

And if its not blue what does that mean? Not enough current?
Could it be gap? wrong plug ie. too hot or too cold??

What about the fuel mix. will it run better on the higher quality oils with their thinner mix. The motor bikes here like it.

If the leads are buggered they may not carry enough current.
As Oldboot says "starting sequence" . My old 135 merc liked routine and couldnt handle someone else trying a different way.

There are gurus on here that will know all about this job.

cheers Stu

[fishnNauru]

A mate on island let me borrow a book that covers johnson/evinrude 9.9-30hp. It's not exact but close enough.
I just checked the float level according to the book and all was ok...I do not have that gague thing for when u turn the carb upside down to check the float level that way...so i'll just assume that that is ok.
As for the start procedure...I have no owners manual and I figured if it stared I was doing it right... and the procedure hasn't changed so something must be amiss...what that is is what i'm trying to figure out...I'll do a search for an owners manual and see what I come up with anyway.
run it on the valvoline 2 stroke outboard oil of the right tcw3 whatever grade mixed 50:1. not much of an oil selection here anyway...valvoline...or valvoline :)

[LittleSkipper]

Gidday fishnNAURU

YES! The HT leads are the ones that go from the coils to the plugs,you would be surprised how such a small part can cause so much problem.

Regards
Wayne.

[stue2]

Gidday fishnNAURU

YES! The HT leads are the ones that go from the coils to the plugs,you would be surprised how such a small part can cause so much problem.

Regards
Wayne.

yep. you may see very fine cracks in the wall of the leads where moisture has got in over time.
tuff about the valvoline.

Good luck mate, Stu

[fishnNauru]

So after searching high and low I cannot find a start up procedure for a Johnson 15hp anywhere...anyone owned one or remember the owners manual recommed starting procedure?
I'll check the plug wires and see what's what

[stue2]

I think your start up should work.

plugs and leads, check them out.

hope the wave doesnt bother you too much.


stu

[fishnNauru]

Nah, no worries about the wave...some say it gets from deep deep to shallow so quick a wave could not run up it...who knows...I live on one of the highest parts so we get abit of traffic up our way when we get a Tsunami warning.
Had to fix the genset today and will get back to the outboard tomorrow ;) will definately check the plugs and plug wires though.

[stue2]

I did wonder how some of the smaller islands survived. Anyway good luck with the leads and stuff.

Cheers Stu

[Lovey80]

Have you removed the spark plug and connected the lead to the plug and earthed it out on the block and cranked it to check if you have spark?

My way of dealing with flooding is similar to Finga. Take the fuel line off and continue to pull with the throttle closed. The theory is that the spark plug will eventually fire once the right amount of fuel is in there. If it fires and runs momentarily I will connect the fuel line and prime it in an attempt to keep it running. If it fires and dies again, connect the fuel line and give it a quater prime, pull a few times, if no fire, pump a few more and so on until it is right to go.

Some outboards like choke after it fires initially and some dont.

Cheers

Chris

[Dignity]

My mate usually starts with one quarter throttle, 1 -2 pull swith choke on, then choke in and pull - always starts on this pull. He also couldn't find a start sequence anywhere and found this method through experimentation. Not necessarily correct and may not solve your problem either. I have a 150 hp which easily floods and my trick is to tilt the motor right up for a short time and then down again, usually starts.

[oldboot]

A critical thing to understand about starting conventional two stroke motors is that the carby does not feed into the cylinder.

The carby feeds into the crank case from there into the cylinder.

So for a two stroke to start we have to have the cranke case filled with "correct" mixture before the cylinder can get a charge of correct mixture

Most two strokes need to be cranked with the choke or richening device engaged before they will start regardless of air temperature, for the first start.

Many 4 stroke motors will start fine in warm weather with no choke, first start.

what else has to be done varies with the engine.

Most chain saws a brush cutters have to be cranked with choke till they fire a little and then open the choke and crank..all with the throttle wide open...

both my evenrude 3 cylinder and my brotherin laws merc 2 cylinder need to be cranked with the richening device engaged and the throttle closed until they fire, then the throttle opened a little.

It all depends on how that motor is set up.

cheers

[fishnNauru]

Well the motor ran well today. I put the carby kit through it, and removed the plugs and cleaned the black junk off them and put em back in as they are only months old. The leads seemed to be fine, no cracks or obvious wear.
Same start sequence i'd used worked.
I may have been primeing the bulb too much, till it was rock hard and force-fed and overloaded the engine before...not real sure...just went abit easier on it this time ;)
I ran it getting out of the channel, then she died and came back to life with a few pulls and abit of choke.
The motor seemed to have more power and get up and go and planned easily where it has struggled b4, I did change the trim to the 3 hole out from the transom...so that may have made some difference too...did not return it to the 2nd hole to see what the difference was though.
I did notice as I was running it, it seemed to pop abit every once in a while...but was not willing to fiddle with the mix incase i messed something up. I set the mix needle to what the book recommends 3 turns anticlockwise from the seat (the needle is tight anyway...so the seat was abit hard to find). Would popping seem to indicate abit of a lean mix??? It seemed to not have much exhast smoke either...again maybe a lean indicator in my opinion...
I checked where the thermostat should be the other day and found none...but i was going to pull it out anyway...our water temp is 28deg all year round here so I think it should be fine. Better than it locking up and overheating :)
How long should you get out of a set of sparkplugs in a 2 stroke...presuming it's tuned ad running right??? My motor has no hour meter so how frequently in months should they be replaced??? these have only been in 3 or 4 months tops. Thanks again for all your help.

[dnej]

There was a comment passed earlier in these replies, that WD40 will not help you start an engine.
In actual fact, it can be used to spray down into a carbie,of a MV, while cranking over the motor.
It fires well, and will give enough turn over, to pull fuel through the system, if the issue is an out of fuel one, and you have refueled the vehicle.
David

[fishnNauru]

Well I ran it again today, richened the mix needle abit and the popping departed. She ran like a charm, plenty of power left in the old girl yet ;)
Still curious how long you guys leave your plugs in two strokes???
No fish, but if the boat runs well I don't feel so bad about no fish ;) I was abit late getting to a flock of feeding birds and all the action was over by the time we got there...day late a a dollar short...alas until next time ;)

[oldboot]

How long your plugs last depends on quite a few things.

brand and quality of plug.
type of running the engine does
quality of fuel and oil used
oil mixture used
the hours run
I am sure there are others.

how long is a piece of string.

most boat shops will replace the plugs at service..when ever that is

cheers

[fishnNauru]

So...assuming you guys do your own services...how long do you leave your plugs in then? How frequently do you service a 2 stroke? It has no engine oil to change like a 4 stroke...
And if you don't have an hour meter, how do you know how long? I keep a fishing log, so would every 50 hours or 100hrs or 200hrs be a good service time? Every day is boat season here...so It's not like I can service it at the end of the season like some down south in oz.
FYI the little '91 15 horse Johno is going like a dream, starts easy, planes the boat in a hurry and is running flawlessly...not sure exactly what I did that fixed it but it sure worked ;)

[oldboot]

Mostly the recomendation is the average recreational boat owner should get their engine serviced every 12 months.

At this time the spark plugs are changed.
the cooling impeller is inspected and probably changed
the oil in the leg is replaced
and a few other things like seals & thermostats are checked and replaced.

If you wnat definite hours recomendations, the service schedules in the workshop manual will give you details of what should be done at what services.

Cough up and buy the appropriate manual...worth every cent.

cheers

[fishnNauru]

Hey Oldboot,
thanks for the info. I think I have done most of these since running the motor, except the gear oil in the leg whick I have been thinking about doing.
I'll check the manual I have, though it's evinrude it should give me some ideas.
Any other of you DIY'ers got anything to say???

[oldboot]

Mate... for most purposes, the only difference between Johnson & Evenrude, is the colour of the paint and the name on the sticker....in that period both sold by OMC.

All the after market manuals for those motors are Johnson/Evenrude, and are near verbatum coppies of the originals.

From what I understand even the part numbers match up.

cheers

[stue2]

mmm. This is starting to sound suspiciously like a fuel problem.

Does your fuel tank cop a spray of water or rain from time to time?
Are the O ring seals on the fuel line connections in good nick?
Can you see any discolouration in the bottom of the fuel tank?

Can you borrow a clean tank to try?

back in a week, Cheers Stu