Is there any reputable boat builders left?

[Hunt-N-Gather]

Without trying to start any misconceptions, I'm only back on the Coast for a couple of weeks, but catching up with family & friends last night & well into the early hrs of this morning,....sadly remember discussing that the legendary "Winning Yachts" may also be calling it a day.....My thoughts were..God forbid...will there be any reputable boat builders left?
With Captain Bligh's seemingly endless new restrictions/regulations overtaking us all, can you see an end to the BS?...what will it take for these clowns to wake up.....a Mutiny?
Their simply choking the life out of the Recreational/Amateur & even the Pro fisherman, that obviously has a flow-on effect to our already battling boat manufacturers.
Isn't it enough for them to compete with the strong Aussie dollar?...you now get more bang for your OS buck that ever before....Is it only a matter of time before this market will dominate the future of the "All Australian build boat" Sorry guy's, feel like I've still got the wobbly boot on, so please forgive me if I'm not making any sense, But I'm unable to sleep & feel a tad rattled, someone please tell me I've got it all wrong!:-[
Cheers Men
HnG

[finding_time]

There's plenty of reputable boat builders left!!! Just look for longevity, the sharks dont seem to last very long!!!;)

[maimai]

There's plenty of reputable boat builders left!!! Just look for longevity, the sharks dont seem to last very long!!!;)


Yes they do...they just know how to get away with it time and time again ::)::)::)::)

[mull dog]

i think that if local builders were able to pass on the savings they now get with the strong dollar when purchasing primary materials there wouldn't be a big discrepency with the offshore market.

[STUIE63]

it's not just Bligh it is all levels of government in my opinion
Stuie

[johncar]

To save our Boat Builders and everything that goes along with Rec boating/fishing we have to all fight together.

There are commercial activities going on in our bays and rivers everyday that are killing masses of juvenile fish including Snapper.
Our great Qld Gov is currently still supporting this mass killing at present with radio ads telling people to go out and buy Moreton bay sea food.

So at our end banning fishing, green zones, licences and what next.

At the other end supporting and encouraging an industry that is in direct conflict with us and allowing the mass kill of bycatch, oh and the live release BS. Don't believe it, they're all dead as they hit the water or not long after.

Not hard for me to see why there are no fish and why boat builders are struggling or closing shop.
I'm demanding answers now from my pollies hope you are too.

[Rodpal]

i think that if local builders were able to pass on the savings they now get with the strong dollar when purchasing primary materials there wouldn't be a big discrepency with the offshore market.

hey mull dog, i think the only way we are going to see savings handed on is to buy an over seas built or imported boat.

i have been researching marine electrics for the passed 6 months man and the only savings to be had are by buying direct from over seas. all the supplier in Oz still seem to have the same retail prices. its a screaming shame and you do wonder were the saving have gone

cheers rod

[mull dog]

i do agree rodpal. what i was getting at is that with the strong dollar, importing the ally and fibreglass etc should bring pre-production costs down. the savings aren't getting passed on to the consumer. i have spent the last 6 months researching and getting quotes on custom built boats and the variation in pricing in very similar hulls between builders is significant.

[Rodpal]

i do agree rodpal. what i was getting at is that with the strong dollar, importing the ally and fibreglass etc should bring pre-production costs down. the savings aren't getting passed on to the consumer. i have spent the last 6 months researching and getting quotes on custom built boats and the variation in pricing in very similar hulls between builders is significant.

totally agree mate, we should also be seeing significant savings at the bowzzer to but we're not, we should be seeing significant saving on a variety of aussie built products but we're not, there seems to be a lot of aussie boat builders closing up shop at the moment so it must be tough out there, maybe to tough to hand on savings?? ok yah i know i dont know what i'm talking about ok ok lol

cheers rod

[FNQCairns]

It's Australian business culture through and through, gone are the days of making a living profit, today relative to the past it needs to be a x5 or x10 even equivalent, the housing bubble was the catalyst and we are now caught firmly within the result.

Check out milk lately with a supermarket pushing the price down, on the face of it nothing could be better for all Australians but the problem is every single person the farmer deals with to get his milk to the farm gate is still charging the same for their service/part/supplies as they did before the supermarket moved the price down.

As long as Australia's growth drivers remain nothing much higher than Ponzi schemes we are as trapped as we where in 2004....GFCII anyone?

[Squidlet]

So to the Question asked, Any reputable boat builders left,and who are they?
Don't care about over sea's stuff what's the good oil on local builders!

[dreamin]

Rip tide alloy boats at underwood

[Matt76]

Performance plate boats at Brendale. They have just done a ripper of a boat for me.

P.S. I run a small sheet metal business and we aren't getting any savings on our raw materials because of the dollar, so I doubt the boat builders are either.

[Hunt-N-Gather]

Yeah Dreamin & Matt76...there's still a few knocking about with some good ones amongst em. Matt I'm stoked for you with you newbie Mate, good on ya:tekst-toppie: ......unfortunately some of them aren't even qualified....there's a bit of a loop hole in the industry that allows them to tippy toe around the rules that others must abide to.

If we lose Winning Yachts however I feel that would be a real tragedy...he's been around for forever it seems & Peter strikes me as more of the quiet achiever, but IMO is clearly the outstanding & reputable tradesperson in the industry, he carries with him a wealth of knowledge, and accreditations for Marine Surveying, Boat Building & Ship Design.......anyone needing a purpose built survey boat usually see them first... Most of us have probably been on some of his Vessels cruising between islands on those Huge Cats /water Taxis around the Whitsundays.(FantaSea)
Anyway, enough depression for me for one day hopefully someone will tell me the boys heard wrong and all is well.
Have a good one people:thumbsup:
Cheers
HnG
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[Lovey80]

The problem is with wages. FNQ touched on it with the housing bubble. The price you pay a tradie for his hours has skyrocketed in recent years. Every builder wants the best tradies doing their work to keep a reputable business running so they have to pay top dollar. With the most over proced houses in the world, you don't begrudge them for demanding top doller either.

The bottom line is you get far far more bang for your buck in a US boat even at 80/100c conversion rate than you do in Australia. Add a carbon tax to everything and it just gets worse.

We are far past the one sided economy, huge amounts of our manufacturing is done off shore. Look at Noble boats, now made in China because to stay in business you have to find cheaper wages because the margins are just so tight.

[Steeler]

There is no right or wrong, all this rubbish citing high wages.Those citing wages as an issue would you have all employees working for an Australian business working for peanuts just so the masters can feel good about themselves.

Get with the program we live in a world wide economic environment now and if a local business cannot make enough of a quid to be sustainable then as the mad monk would say " Shite happens ". Its simple supply and demand on a world wide scale now.


How many blaming wages here would put there hand up for less remuneration just so we can pay less for the products or services there employers provide ?????????????????.

[Lovey80]

Your exactly right Steeler no one is going to put there hand up for les remuneration. And hence everyone is going broke and all of our production is being asholed off shore. It's a fact of life that we have to come to terms with. We are a one geared economy that is completely reliant on the resources sector. If that goes back to where it was in the 80's this whole shebang goes down with it.

Minimum wage increases+unions+stupid taxes = Higher unemployment FACT!

[Steeler]

Forget this myth that Australian made is best quality, its simply not true to apply this rule across all products.

Where not talking cars here where most driveways have at least one,Boats are in question here and put simply there is insufficient potential new boat owners to sustain a large number of manufactures then add to the equation the value that can be obtained from buying overseas and you have business here that simply don't have enough potential customers to survive.

Nothing to do with wages, unions that's just more political tripe.

Eventually we will have less boat manufacturers here in Australia and what this will mean is those who do survive will be financially viable.

Any industry that is overcrowded for manufacturers will see some go by the way side.

[Rodpal]

Your exactly right Steeler no one is going to put there hand up for les remuneration. And hence everyone is going broke and all of our production is being asholed off shore. It's a fact of life that we have to come to terms with. We are a one geared economy that is completely reliant on the resources sector. If that goes back to where it was in the 80's this whole shebang goes down with it.

Minimum wage increases+unions+stupid taxes = Higher unemployment FACT!

lovey80 that is such a spot on post man

[MyWay]

Rip tide alloy boats

[Steeler]

Yep we certainly have one of the worlds worst unemployment rates::)

[Lovey80]

Steeler tell us why as you explain that so much value can be obtained over seas?

The unemployment rate is a government manipulated figure that they change the goalposts for its numbers all the time. You should know that Steeler.

[TimiBoy]

Riptide Alloy Boats in Springwood.

We smelt our own Aluminium and Steel don't we? I'm not sure whether the exchange rate is going to help in that area.

Cheers,

Tim

[Lovey80]

Exactly Timi, and as far as glass goes, the Americans have been doing a far superior product than us at a cheaper price for years. In fact I am suprised our manufacturers havent adopted their methods wholesale a long time ago.

So if the building materials are not the issue, and obviously by the rate that boat builders go under in Australia they cant be making that much money where is all the dollars going for boats that are 30-40% dearer for a similar product?

Wages Maybe? I went to the Kevlacat factory last year I think and was given a tour of the factory. I mentioned that 2100KC's were selling second hand for more than what they originally cost to buy new. The answer I got was wage increases had gone through the roof. I am sure that KC is making more per boat now than back then but it seemed to me to be a genuine answer.

[La Vida]

Evolution boats victoria, very well built and a factory which listens.

I still believe one of the biggest problems with a lot of australian boat building has been too many have got into it looking a make a buck, and thus the quality of the product has been affected.

There is very few boats out there these days where the employees put their heart and soul into it, take pride in their workmanship. doing the best they can and every day on every job. Having been involved in the marine industry now for the last 9 years I have seen the the best of the best and the worst of the worst.

Much of it is to blame with the general attitude of society these day, classic example kids finishing school starting a trade and expecting pay rates that you would only be payed to the top tradies who have experience and the know how.

The old adage of near enough is good enough or why should I do that because I am not paid enough rings true..

But there is some great builders out there who build with pride and passion - Evolution, Powercat, AMM and rip tide to name just a few

[NAGG]

This is an interesting thread with some interesting comments -

I'm curious to know why we are seeing a decline in the boat building industry when boat ownership in Australia is actually increasing. :o How much of the slack is being taken up by imports ?

some interesting figures from NSW show that there has been an average increase in registrations over the last 10 years by on an average 2.9% with a forecast increase from 221,000 - 351,000 in the next 15 years. :) Now I can only assume that this would be similar right around the country.

So if this trend is correct ..... why have we got such a problem (the strong Aussie $ would have something to do with it ...... imported new boats cheaper)

Anecdotally - I hear that there are some long waiting periods for those ordering new locally made boats ....... 6-8 months on some .
So are we seeing the inefficient - non reputable manufactures go under or is the cost of the fitout killing us (chandelry) - with local suppliers screwing the manufacturers ............ most is imported yet prices remain high against a strong A$

Chris

I

[DTHCoCo]

Allison seem like a decent built boat.

[Shawn 66]

Exactly Timi, and as far as glass goes, the Americans have been doing a far superior product than us at a cheaper price for years. In fact I am suprised our manufacturers havent adopted their methods wholesale a long time ago.

So if the building materials are not the issue, and obviously by the rate that boat builders go under in Australia they cant be making that much money where is all the dollars going for boats that are 30-40% dearer for a similar product?

Wages Maybe? I went to the Kevlacat factory last year I think and was given a tour of the factory. I mentioned that 2100KC's were selling second hand for more than what they originally cost to buy new. The answer I got was wage increases had gone through the roof. I am sure that KC is making more per boat now than back then but it seemed to me to be a genuine answer.
I am intereseted to note that you are putting forward the line that "Wages are going through the roof" I can only comment about my industry ,(Construction ) however I can asure you that I am earning less now than I was 5 years ago . Might not the answer to increased production costs have something to do with , the fact of spiralling utility costs , company charges , banking costs etc , or is it just easier to blame employee wages and entitlements for the reason.
Shawn.

[finga]

So are we seeing the inefficient - non reputable manufactures go under or is the cost of the fitout killing us (chandelry) - with local suppliers screwing the manufacturers ............ most is imported yet prices remain high against a strong A$

Chris

I
Guess where most of the stuff for a fitout comes from??
[/URL][URL]http://panu.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6007000441050/Showroom/3000000149681/ALL.htm (http://panu.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6007000441050/Homepage.htm)

[NQ FISH]

Mate i have a 7.2 seaprowler built under survey done 350 hrs now as is a great sea boat have not had any major probs can not praise the boat enough, now looking at a 8mtr which will be built by seaprowler boats also.


cheers

[NAGG]

I am intereseted to note that you are putting forward the line that "Wages are going through the roof" I can only comment about my industry ,"Construction " however I can asure you that I am earning less now than I was 5 years ago . Might not the answer to increased production costs have something to do with , the fact of spiralling utility costs , company charges , banking costs etc , or is it just easier to blame employee wages and entitlements for the reason.
Shawn.

Wages are an easy target ....... but the reality is that the actual impact would not equate to the hike in the price of a new boat ........ even in such a labour intensive industry like boat building.
I reckon you will find the real reason would be supply & demand

Chris

PS - I wish I could use wage increases as a justification for a price increase ::)

[Lovey80]

Wages are an easy target ....... but the reality is that the actual impact would not equate to the hike in the price of a new boat ........ even in such a labour intensive industry like boat building.
I reckon you will find the real reason would be supply & demand

Chris

PS - I wish I could use wage increases as a justification for a price increase ::)

Nagg I agree that supply and demand is a large part of it. Take the Kevlacat example. If they werent such a good boat and in such high demand for people to continue to pay the ever rising prices of them then they would have been stuck and maybe folded with others.

Freshwater, 5 years isn't a big deal in the scheme of things, take your wage 10 years ago and compare it to the same job going back 10 years before that and you will notice a steep increase especially in relation to other jobs. The poor fact of the matter is the cost of living is still going up faster than wages and that is a problem no one seems to care about in our gov't.

[Shawn 66]

Nagg I agree that supply and demand is a large part of it. Take the Kevlacat example. If they werent such a good boat and in such high demand for people to continue to pay the ever rising prices of them then they would have been stuck and maybe folded with others.

Freshwater, 5 years isn't a big deal in the scheme of things, take your wage 10 years ago and compare it to the same job going back 10 years before that and you will notice a steep increase especially in relation to other jobs. The poor fact of the matter is the cost of living is still going up faster than wages and that is a problem no one seems to care about in our gov't.
Mate,
Could not agree more with your statement re cost of living . You are also correct in your statement about my industry versus others . I just find it a simplistic statement these days to blame the cost of procuring goods / services solely on rising wages . As you have yourself stated wage rises have not kept pace with the cost of living, and for that successive governments have to take the majority of the blame.
Shawn

[hakuna]

Goldstar platies in Perth for my vote

Australia is now a part of the global market and businesses must become smarter in the way they do things, this will include using a combination of off shore construction
Scream all you like with loosing Aussie jobs but we are no longer protected and the average Aussie is willing to buy off shore so it is a double edged sword

We can employ an Aussie at $80k/year, with all the unions, sick days, maternity leave etc, or overseas in a country I will not name , pay 8k for same quality person with no extras, no work no pay, and they have by far a better working ethic

This is where our government is forcing us to go

[Steeler]

Lovey80 what sort of vehicle do you drive, would it be an imported one because it represented better bang for buck ?.

[Jarrah Jack]

Coutacraft....A small builder in Malacouta who don't take any short cuts. There will always be small artisan type builders, Camcraft in Hastings is another and Mako, also in Hastings, who do alloy custom boats..

[Lovey80]

Absolutely, and for the record I am more than happy to see blokes in the building industry make a go of it and get their fair share. For too long roofers, sparkies, chippies, painters, aircon techs etc, lived on the seat of their pants doing jobs that lawyers and doctors couldnt do but got paid a 10th to do it.

The housing.credit bubble is one thing. Maybe if we hadn't got hooked on consumer items at the same time and or credit regulation wasn't relaxed so far as to let everyone tick all this BS on credit then maybe we wouldnt be in this situation today.

[Shawn 66]

Goldstar platies in Perth for my vote

Australia is now a part of the global market and businesses must become smarter in the way they do things, this will include using a combination of off shore construction
Scream all you like with loosing Aussie jobs but we are no longer protected and the average Aussie is willing to buy off shore so it is a double edged sword

We can employ an Aussie at $80k/year, with all the unions, sick days, maternity leave etc, or overseas in a country I will not name , pay 8k for same quality person with no extras, no work no pay, and they have by far a better working ethic

This is where our government is forcing us to go
Just out of curiosity , what research did you undertake to come to this conclusion .
Shawn:-?

[Lovey80]

Steeler I drive a 1992 Subaru brumby, because it was all I could afford at the time and did the job I wanted it to.

But lets assume the answer is yes I drive a new imported vehicle because it represented better bang for buck. Why does it represent better bang for buck?

[hakuna]

Just out of curiosity , what research did you undertake to come to this conclusion .
Shawn:-?

I employ both overseas and Aussie workers

[Lovey80]

Hakuna, I agreed with every bit of your post. Although I am yet to see a better workethic overseas but in saying that I havent seen a factory in china or the like either. Better work for dollar? sometimes yes sometimes no.

[Hunt-N-Gather]

It' sure is a touchy subject, I'm glad i brought it up.....so thanks for all the comments men, I'm sure glad I'm not the only one showing grave concerns for an industry that is essential for many Australian Industries & Aussie workers, it's also a major R&R pastime for most of us...so there's a lot at risk if it keeps going the direction its heading.
For me...It's been getting worse for years funny how you seem to shrug it off until something happens a little closer to home...and then reality kicks in.
At the very least this thread my highlight some interesting statistics and Our so called Governing body or associates may actually listen for a change.
Yeah I know...I'm dreaming again :hammer: :wut:

Cheers for now.
HnG

[Steeler]

God it must be a sad existence when before logging on to AF you have gotta get your daily fix of politics and how you can lend those views to threads on here and run off to news ltd publications for quotes and google your little finger tips off looking for any link you can to support those views.

Yep blame wages and taxes thats a nice neat answer to everything.


Heck i reckon you can be the lamplighter Monday and tell your employer that your so convinced this country is going to the shitehouse because of high wages that your willing to turn up for half from now on.

Businesses come and go all the time in all areas and that can be put down to many many reasons not just wages and unions.

Lets not even dare suggest other reasons such as poor planning and forecasting or an existing abundance of players in an industry because that would be to lay some of the blame at the business owner or the management charged with the responsibility of making the correct decisions. Nah just easier to bash up the blue collar worker when a business fails.

Stick half a dozen butchers or shoe shops in a shopping centre are they all going to survive, do they have a legit claim to blame wages and taxes and unions when some of those fold.

As for government manipulating figures well that goes back a long long way doesn't it ?.

I forgot its Sunday morning and the ABC has been on and Piers has probably given his sermon and rallied the troops, might bail out for the day not sure i am up for the disciples of the right.

All these political overtones have become quite tiresome and frankly my foots asleep.

Perhaps send me a PM when you are posting something that does not have some political overtones to it i do actually enjoy reading them but as for now, please wake up foot.

[NAGG]

Politics ::) what will one blame once we have a LNP government & a Federal coalition government ..... in the next couple of years - besides the legacy of the previous labour governments ;D

Seriously though ..... we probably have too many boat builders & certainly cannot match the economies of scale of say the US - Just look at the poly boats that they build (outstanding finish) - but you just cannot expect the same from the local guys unless you are willing to pay the amortised price of the technology required to produce such a gem.
compare our local attempts to build a bass style glass boat - it's nearly farcical when compared to US offerings......... but what do you expect in a market that is several hundred boats / year many thousands in the US.
sure we do some things well ...... & these are the survivors.

Chris

[Lovey80]

Oooh Steeler, sounds like you got your nose out of joint. Did you have to go to one of your fellow Union colleagues for that retort?

I don't generally google for links that support my view unless I feel I have to. Ie the QANTAS thread where several members were calling BS. I also hate just about every publication in this country and News is at the top of it.

You have some very good points about responsibility of the business owners and at the end of the day the majority of the blame lays with them for not reading the market well enough and deciding appropriately. I dare say that many of the bussinesses that were kicking ass in the good times were paying well over minimum wages to keep their staff. But thats how the cycle goes, spend big, live it up in the good times leave nothing on the side for the rough times because you can just fold up shop and start again when demand picks up. Who cares who gets burnt in the process. It's bloody bullshit!


Johhnys super cycle in Credit and Housing right on top of a mining boom got the financials of this country in pretty good shape. There were many many hidden consequences of this (some discussed here). Labor failed to correct those mistakes when given the opportunity and are equally complicit in where we sit right now.

[Lovey80]

Oooh Steeler, sounds like you got your nose out of joint. Did you have to go to one of your fellow Union colleagues for that retort?

I don't generally google for links that support my view unless I feel I have to. Ie the QANTAS thread where several members were calling BS. I also hate just about every publication in this country and News is at the top of it.

You have some very good points about responsibility of the business owners and at the end of the day the majority of the blame lays with them for not reading the market well enough and deciding appropriately. I dare say that many of the bussinesses that were kicking ass in the good times were paying well over minimum wages to keep their staff. But thats how the cycle goes, spend big, live it up in the good times leave nothing on the side for the rough times because you can just fold up shop and start again when demand picks up. Who cares who gets burnt in the process. It's bloody bullshit!


Johhnys super cycle in Credit and Housing right on top of a mining boom got the financials of this country in pretty good shape. There were many many hidden consequences of this (some discussed here). Labor failed to correct those mistakes when given the opportunity and are equally complicit in where we sit right now.

[finga]

Best way to find a reputable boat builder is look at the contract.
If the contract is worded to protect purely the builder then he's not reputable.
If the contract is worded to protect the builder but mostly the buyer then they're one to consider.
If the builder only needs a 'token' deposit until boat is finished then they're doing something right
Word of mouth is also an indicator.
But the only way to find out is usually the hard way. When a problem crops up.
If the builder is reputable then problems sorted. If not they close up (usually giving no indication to the public), take your money and run.

Look through all court records available (which is easy now-a-day with the QLD courts system having e-courts http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/esearching/party.asp and other states would surely have a similar setup) and also look in the ASIC, Fair Trading and ABR systems at company histories and history of the directors and/or owners.
Usually alarm bells will ring if something is adrift or things are changing all the time. The changes may be subtle but why change at all.
As an example try doing the searching for a boat maker (and it's directors/owners) who has just closed up shop up Caboolture way. We all know who they are but cannot be mentioned otherwise the thread will disappear.
There is a web of company changes with ASIC and a list of items in the e-court system.
Alarm bells should be ringing.

[nickstock]

When I was looking for a new boat a few months ago, many builders came recommended and many didn't. For every 10 blokes that said (insert brand name in here) were the best boats, another 5 said that they had dramas with them.

What I will say is that I could not find a bad word about Rip Tide boats other than the wait to get a boat built may stretch over 12 months. Well IMO this is a good thing as at least you know they are busy and a desired boat.

I was too eager to get into a boat and did not want to wait at the time. If I had been patient 18 months ago when I first started getting a boat built, I would be fishing today in a big Rip Tide.

I will either look at a second hand Platey or a new glass boat when I start looking for a big boat again. If I could outlay say 15% deposit and pay the rest on arrival, I would love to import a boat from the States.

Fingas advice in the above post is 100% right IMO and I should have heeded this advice when I attempted to get my last boat built.

Cheers,
Nick Stock

[Steeler]

Foots still asleep

[Hunt-N-Gather]

.....When they decided to get rid of the rat bags out of the (Housing) Building industry they introduced a process of compliance to receive a now recognized QBSA licence (Queensland building services authority)
Builders & Plumbers in those days were the only ones i can remember that were required to hold a licence....however....pool builders, brickies, plasterers, cabinet makers, landscapers, and so on...were not.....all had to prove their ability in not only trade skills but business & bookkeeping before a licence was issued.
This was great because if you had a issue with any tradie,(free of charge) you were able to involve the QBSA to assist in resolving the problem....hence problem not resolved, licence was suspended or in some instances cancelled.
I'm puzeled as to the current minimum requirements for starting a new business (boat building) and basically hang a sign out the front and away you go. "shiftiest boats built here"
I'm sure there was a requirement for all ali boat builders to hold a welding certification (1665?) but they don't seem to have enforced it yet!
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Is anyone aware of any way of checking, these requirements (online) or even the trade skills of the said owner/employees of some backyarders. We don't only risk our lives' but those of family and friends...If the home roof leaks you call the plumber....if the boat leaks the Coast Guard, small amount of difference in the urgency!!
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.P.S. Would love to see a similar system introduced in the Marine Industry.
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How does NBBA sound......"National Boat Building Authority"
Later;)
HnG
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[Steeler]

Please understand Lovey80, and i am typing real slow so you can keep up.

I am a salaried employee out on the road as a account manager, i do not belong to a union of any description and when the time comes i present my case for an increase all based on my performance and value i add to the business i work for.

I do however have the luxury of calling on businesses every day where if there was not a collective to negotiate there remuneration some would quite frankly be railroaded big time.

I see a lot of union bashing on here but i see no takers quick to forfeit all the good things they have received over the years such as penalty rates and shift allowances just to name a few let alone a just and reasonable weekly wage.

Please let it sink in this time, i live in hope.

[Matt76]

If the builder only needs a 'token' deposit until boat is finished then they're doing something right


Might be getting off topic a bit but I am in small business (not boat building) and you have no idea how much money I have lost over the last couple of years by people ordering stuff that they don't have the money to collect. We custom make so it it generally useless to anyone else so not sellable to reclaim moneys. So you may think I am not reputable but I will not take on a custom job on a 'token' deposit anymore. Boats may be a bit different but I dont see why reputable builders shouldnt be entitled to progress payments just the same as house builders get.

[thylacene]

Time for a bit of bias based on personal experience. International Marine build the Caribbean Range. We ordered a Reef Runner in October, once we had sold our Quintrex and had the $$ to proceed.

In the course of construction they kept me informed to the expected date of delivery to the dealer, and met their commitments.

The finished product was built to the level of quality expected, and from my recent experience cutting holes and fitting out, the build quality is very good. We have only managed to put 75 hours on it since we picked it up in January, and to date, it has met expectations.

The company has been in business for an awfully long time, and that combined with the number of their boats that frequent Bermagui ( I counted twenty bertram/caribbean in the marina) were significant in making our choice. There were also practical advantages to the design and layout that suit South Coast NSW off-shore fishing in a trailerable boat. If we were buying a ski boat, then our choices may have been different.

I agree that there is room for improvement, but also understand that R&D is a very expensive proposition. The price of the product was reasonable, and while there is an opportunity to import to "save" some money, we chose to buy Australian made. Maybe we are out of pocket a bit, but we both have kids who will need jobs in the future.

I choose not to comment on the political implications, but admit to being less than happy with the financial management of our country over the past twenty years.

So that said, you can note my vote for Caribbean even if they are considered "old school" in comparison to some of their competition.

[Lovey80]

Might be getting off topic a bit but I am in small business (not boat building) and you have no idea how much money I have lost over the last couple of years by people ordering stuff that they don't have the money to collect. We custom make so it it generally useless to anyone else so not sellable to reclaim moneys. So you may think I am not reputable but I will not take on a custom job on a 'token' deposit anymore. Boats may be a bit different but I dont see why reputable builders shouldnt be entitled to progress payments just the same as house builders get.

Matt, I understand your anger at these shonks but you have to understand there have been that many "reputable" boat builders that have taken progress payments on boats and intentionally lead customers on to continue payments knowing they are never going to get delivered. I would never give progress payments on a boat. If the boat builder wants that then I wont buy his boat. The only way I would get a custom job done is below

1) Up front deposit pays for the materials for the hull which he stamps serial plate on once the hull is pulled from the plug (or hull tacked together)and gives you a reciept for the hull (you now own that hull).

2) Next payment is when it is time to purchase the motors (supply them yourself if you like) and he receipts you for both motors (you now own a hull and two engines)

3) Third and final payment is on delivery after the water trial.

Once that hull has been plated and receipted, if for what ever reason he was to go broke then the administrators would have to give you the boat.

Thats the best system I have seen yet.

[Getout]

Why shouldn't boatbuilders be forced to use a trust account system?

[Lovey80]

I would have to problems using a trust account to prove I had the cash but the payments would come as I stated above.