Inboard Diesels-Subaru a possibility?

[Lovey80]

I see that VW is now in the inboard Diesel game and just recently looking at the new Subaru 2.0L Turbo Boxer Diesel punching out 108kw @ 3600rpm and 350nm @ 1800rpm, this may become a consideration for a boat builder. Being a boxer design it may be that little bit smaller in dimensions to get it to sit under the deck in some trailer boats? 108kw is about 155hp+/-?

your thoughts?

[TimiBoy]

VW have been at it since the War, but they've recently done a deal with Mercruiser, so we now see their gear here.

I've been wondering what their diesels are like. Are they the goods? Are they "just a marinised diesel?" I will certainly consider either the V6 or the V8 for my upcoming new tub, but will probably stick with the Yanmar...

Cheers,

Tim

[lethal098]

The Subaru boxer Diesel would not be a good one to have on a boat, They have complicated the diesel with a DPF and way too much electronics, Stick with the known brands, Yanmar, Steyr etc. Vw not sure yet, would give them a few years and see what happens.

cheers Lee

[Midnight]

I have always thought that the Suby motors would be great in a boat. Low profile for easy installation under deck as Lovey said, and plenty of low down torque even with the petrols. Remember the turbo petrol ones turn out over 200kw and massive amounts of torque with great reliability.

I would be very interested in a diesel version.

Since the old flat Perkins went the way of the dodo, there has been no other "low profile" engines made.

Cheers,
Myles

[Midnight]

Timi,
Most of the diesels available are just marinised auto or truck engines anyway, Yanmar 6lp(Landcruiser) 6bt Cummins (Dodge trucks), larger TAMD series Volvos.

There are not too many other than little engines that have been designed from the drawing board as pure marine engines. The small Volvo's (like mine) were never anything but a marine engine.

How well they are marinised is the key.

But I reckon you are on the right path Timi with choosing a diesel inboard package for you new boat. Great economy, better ride, great longevity if they are propped correctly (+100 to +150rpm over rated rpm) and well looked after.

You will never go back to outboard power for a maxi trailer boat.

Yanmar 6LP series and ZT350 drive would be my pick.

Cheers,
Myles

[lethal098]

Subaru petrol engine yes if you could find someone to marinise it. Seeing the failures go thru the workshop i would not have one in my boat. being at sea is all about reliabilty and periodic maintenance, the oil leaks that develop on some of these motors i would hate to be pulling an engine out every 12 months to fix.

The Subaru Diesel engine is experiencing a lot of problems at the moment due to the DPF type system that is part of the engine system, They are a very complicated engine and have a lot of sensors and systems that would not be very kind to a marine environment, the fuel qulaity would be the first concern, then the list goes on.

The inboard diesels i have had experince in is, Caterpillar, Volvo and Steyr. Out of all of these the Steyr (256HP)wins hand over feet for the smaller boats either in single or twin configuration and for the larger boats the volvo would be my pick.

Cheers Lee

[TimiBoy]

Timi,
Most of the diesels available are just marinised auto or truck engines anyway, Yanmar 6lp(Landcruiser) 6bt Cummins (Dodge trucks), larger TAMD series Volvos.

There are not too many other than little engines that have been designed from the drawing board as pure marine engines. The small Volvo's (like mine) were never anything but a marine engine.

How well they are marinised is the key.

But I reckon you are on the right path Timi with choosing a diesel inboard package for you new boat. Great economy, better ride, great longevity if they are propped correctly (+100 to +150rpm over rated rpm) and well looked after.

You will never go back to outboard power for a maxi trailer boat.

Yanmar 6LP series and ZT350 drive would be my pick.

Cheers,
Myles

Read it and weep, Baby!

http://www.yanmar.com.au/marine/lp_series/lpseries.htm#

Just a couple of ducks to line up and my 9 metres of fishing heaven will be on the way!!!

;D;D;D;D

Cheers,

Tim

[camboy]

VW have been at it since the War, but they've recently done a deal with Mercruiser, so we now see their gear here.

I've been wondering what their diesels are like. Are they the goods? Are they "just a marinised diesel?" I will certainly consider either the V6 or the V8 for my upcoming new tub, but will probably stick with the Yanmar...

Cheers,

Tim

Hi Tim,
Obviously a little early to comment, however suffice to say, if the marine versions are as good as the VW diesels I have had the pleasure of owning in my previous and current VW Touaregs they will be great. (V6tdi 3.0l 176kw and 550nm torque)
I guess time will tell.
Cheers,
Camboy

[Midnight]

Thanks Lee,
What sort of failures do you see with the Suby motors? Also, with the diesel one, what is DPF? Is that a Suby term? Any common rail diesel needs ultra clean fuel. The cr@p Racor filtration that is standard for most boat builders doesnt go close to being good enough. As you know, they will not handle any water or gunge at all.

Timi, what 9m beast have you got on the way? Have you done the deal on the Yanmar yet? Just make sure you prop it, fully loaded, full fuel,water, ice , men, gear, clears up and make at least 100 rpm over rated. Then she will run nicely for many years. Also check out Tony Athens "Fueltration" system as a standard of fuel filter set up for your new boat. Include the squeeze bulb for easy priming after filter changes. I have one on mine and it is a god send.

http://www.sbmar.com/Products/SM-FF_Main.php

Cam, my Uncle has the R50 diesel, and man that thing has torque like I have never experienced!:o ( I think they are 850nm??) Now that motor in my Berty would be something special!

Cheers,
Myles

P.S Timi, join boatdiesel.com and read read read. Also have a good look through Tony's website.

[TimiBoy]

I was tossing up between an Origin and a Riptide, but I think Riptide is going to win. Whenever I go out in Rhys Flamin' Riptide, I find myself saying she's the best 6 metre boat I've ever ridden.

Dave's Origin, Alchemy, was stunning too - it's a close race. But I must line up those ducks before I say "the race is on!"

Gimme two months, maybe less, here's hoping. I look forward to running the thread.

Cheers,

Tim

[lethal098]

Myles,

DPF stand for diesel particulate filter, this is part of the exhaust system on most modern diesel motors. Most Manufacturers have been able to get it right but Subaru has yet to be perfect it. A dpf Requires periodical Regeneration, this occurs once the exhaust temperature reaches a pre determined point, it then burns off all carbon and soot gathered in it. Imagine driving your car every day Albany creek to Brisbane city, around 50-70km round trip, traffic and about max 60km/h. Over approx 3 weeks the dpf would have accumulated enuf deposit to require a regeneration, a light will show up instructing driver to perform this.You need to then drive the car at 75km/h and above for minimum 15-20 mins, This does not guarantee a regeneration during this time. It may happen it may not. If the vehicle will not regenerate on its own its off to the dealer you go, Not warranty and about $60 to make it happen. Another clincher to this is the oil dilution rate, most engines not running at higher speeds for longer periods of time will generally need there oil changed every7-10000km, another $280 gone.
This is just the way the car engine operates due to emission standards and the like, if it was a straight thru exhaust not sure what emission levels would be like, but you would definately not want one of these in a boat that trolls along and very little Wide open throttle.

Failures well where do i start, big end bearings, oil consumption, head gaskets and general oil leaks. Now some of these are limited but some of them are quite common with some age to them, a lot depends on how well they are maintained, the service schedules are 6months 12500 km, stray from this and expect some failures down the track.

And yes bad fuel is the biggest killer of any diesel engine and the racor system is certainly not up to par, give a modern common rail diesel engine a little bit of water and bye bye engine.

Cheers Lee

[Midnight]

Good luck with the search and the spec Timi, good fun I am sure and the result will be worth it all.

Thanks Lee, any turbo diesel car I owned would get plenty high enough EGT's to burn off the soot;D


Cheers

[lethal098]

Myles,

Yep i am the same but some people buy turbo diesels for the wrong reasons, IE mums shopping car, just wont work in some modern day diesels.

Are you fishing the comp this weekend??

[MEGA'bite]

A new boat thats great timi, all you need to no now timi is how to fish ;)_

[PinHead]

I was tossing up between an Origin and a Riptide, but I think Riptide is going to win. Whenever I go out in Rhys Flamin' Riptide, I find myself saying she's the best 6 metre boat I've ever ridden.

Dave's Origin, Alchemy, was stunning too - it's a close race. But I must line up those ducks before I say "the race is on!"

Gimme two months, maybe less, here's hoping. I look forward to running the thread.

Cheers,

Tim
bloody big difference between a 6 m boat and a 9m boat..like chalk and cheese.

[Midnight]

No Lee, unfortunately I will miss it. I am going back to work on Thursday arvo until Monday arvo:'(

[lethal098]

Bugger ah well, not sure if its gonna happen yet, waiting on the answer tonight

[wakakiwi]

would love to put a td42 turbo nissan motor in mine just got to find a bell housing to mate up to the volvo leg i am not ready to give up yet

[Midnight]

Good luck with it bro

Is the Volvo leg off a petrol or diesel originally? The petrol ratios would suit the vehicle engine torque and HP curves, but unless it is a 290 duo-prop leg I don't think it will handle the torque of the diesel for long.

What revs are peak torque for that motor Waka? If you can cruise at the peak torque revs, you will be kicking goals. Propping can make up a bit for the wrong ratios in the box.

How do you plan to marinise it? I am interested to see how it works out. Our forfathers marinised plenty of truck or car engines for boats over the years and they worked just fine.

Try Dellow Automotive for a bell housing, they always used to be good for oddball vehicle conversions.

An old mate of mine used to pull the motor out of his Ford truck and fit it to the boat to go to Moreton for weekends8-) They were the days....

Chur cuz;D

[Lovey80]

How does the DuoProp work, and what are it's advantages?

[BM]

Chris, the duoprop (or Mercs version which is called the Bravo 3) has two props on the one leg. One prop is right hand rotation and the other prop is left hand rotation. There are 2 driveshafts (one inside the other) so one spinning clockwise and the other counter clockwise. The concept is that the counter rotating props reduce cavitation dramatically which greatly improves grip and responsiveness.

The duoprop setup is fat superior to a single prop leg.

[rat_catcher]

There are not too many other than little engines that have been designed from the drawing board as pure marine engines. The small Volvo's (like mine) were never anything but a marine engine.
Yeah the Volvo D Series engines were all designed from the ground up as marine engines only.

[rat_catcher]

Yanmar 6LP series and ZT350 drive would be my pick.
A good solid engine, but a little old from a technology perspective. I would be looking at the Volvo D Series. But yes they are common rail and fuel quality is a concern, but you do get more bells and whistles with the electronic readout for fuel usage etc.

I second the advice to get onto boatdiesel.com and do a bunch of research. Some good info on that site.

[Midnight]

Thanks Rat-Catcher,
yeah I consider the D series in the "small" Volvo range. I guess the D6's aren't really small in HP. The TAMD range I had in mind was 122's etc.

Volvo have had some issues with the D series electronics that have caused some dramas around the place and I have gone off them. I was all for a D6/DPH drive package as the drive is outstanding.

The Yanmars are older tech but they are still available in full mechanical diesel, but with great efficiency, and this would make them the pick for me for a single installation. They require no power to run once they are started, and if they stop, then the normal mech diesel trouble shooting can be followed.

I have driven a few boats now with common rail diesels in (QSM11's etc) and they are awesome. No smoke ever, even on a cold winters morning, and the response and efficiency is a thing to behold. 14L/hr total for both donks trolling at 8kts in a 46 foot Deep V game boat. Very impressive.

Cheers,
Myles

[The-easyrider]

The other day while waiting for a plane I was reading a mag and there was a note about hyundai diesel marine engines producing a range of smaller motors suitable fro trailer boats that would upset the market price wise

[Lovey80]

Thats interesting. I wouldn't be the one to test the market without a very big warranty.

[TimiBoy]

Volvo. They chased me away when I couldn't get ANY info off their website. Damn thing is a dog. When I get to "buy time" I will be having a chat with them, but...

I like the Yanmar for the sake of reliability. Also it's power, torque and fuel usuage curves rate well against the common rail stuff, though the V6/8 Volkswagen gear is still in the mix for me, and if it is substantially quieter it is likely to win.

Here's a question: Once running, will a common rail be less smelly than old tech or will there be little difference, given the Yanmar will be pretty clean anyway?

The Yanmars read very well on Boatdiesel.com!

Cheers,

Tim

[Mr__Bean]

Read it and weep, Baby!

http://www.yanmar.com.au/marine/lp_series/lpseries.htm#

Cheers,

Tim


Yep, the very successful 4.2 litre turbo diesel from the Landcruiser.

On our low grade Australian diesel it should pump out about 295 hp.

- Darren

[Smithy]

Duoprops also eliminate the prop torque effect too. My new boat heels over a bit with the single but it swinging a 21" prop!

[TimiBoy]

OK, so here's a question:

If the 100 Series Cruiser diesel (Yanmar 315 HP) is such a cracker, when is the 200 Series V8 being marinised? Now I'd buy THAT for a dollar!

Cheers,

Tim

[Midnight]

Timi,
Propped correctly, 100-150rpm over rated fully loaded, and with a clean airfilter and aftercooler you won't see any smoke.

Even with my old jigga, set up as above, only hints at a whisper of smoke. Any direct injection diesel should not be black smoking underway. A bit of a puff if you are heavy on the throttle, and the turbo hasn't had a chance to spin up is normal, but it certainly should never be blowin black smoke in the cruise.

I thought that there were plans afoot to use the V8 Toyota motor.

Interestingly, have a look at the HP and torque the 6LP equivalent in a Landcruiser produces. The marine ones are seriously pumped up by comparison and that is why the propping and air and cooling system maintenance is vital.

Demand raw water and exhaust temp alarms be fitted during the engine fit. They are cheap insurance. If you overheat one of these donks through lack of raw water flow, they are anchors.

I have a "tell tale" plumbed into the raw water to the exhaust, that way I know the water has made it all the way through the coolers and out to the exhaust. Cost me next to nothing, but has saved me once so far. It is great peace of mind to look over your shoulder and see the water shooting 3 feet out the side underway.

Cheers,
Myles

[TimiBoy]

Timi,
Propped correctly, 100-150rpm over rated fully loaded, and with a clean airfilter and aftercooler you won't see any smoke.

Even with my old jigga, set up as above, only hints at a whisper of smoke. Any direct injection diesel should not be black smoking underway. A bit of a puff if you are heavy on the throttle, and the turbo hasn't had a chance to spin up is normal, but it certainly should never be blowin black smoke in the cruise.

I thought that there were plans afoot to use the V8 Toyota motor.

Interestingly, have a look at the HP and torque the 6LP equivalent in a Landcruiser produces. The marine ones are seriously pumped up by comparison and that is why the propping and air and cooling system maintenance is vital.

Demand raw water and exhaust temp alarms be fitted during the engine fit. They are cheap insurance. If you overheat one of these donks through lack of raw water flow, they are anchors.

I have a "tell tale" plumbed into the raw water to the exhaust, that way I know the water has made it all the way through the coolers and out to the exhaust. Cost me next to nothing, but has saved me once so far. It is great peace of mind to look over your shoulder and see the water shooting 3 feet out the side underway.

Cheers,
Myles

I read about having a "water gallery" in the hull for the engine to draw water from - no scoop to get blocked up. Anyone know much about these?

Myles, the tell tale's a great idea. It should be remotely aimable, too, so it can be used to wake up a sleepy deckie!

Cheers,

Tim

[Midnight]

Good idea Timi, I didn't think of that. But I have managed to squirt a few unsuspecting folks in their tenders or at the wharf:)

Sea chests used to be the old term from that style of water intake. They work very well. All you need is a box an inch deep and say 12" By 8" built into the hull with a screen flush with the bottom. If you can have the screen made removable, even better.

For the tell tale, I just made a 316 stainless T, 1" to match the raw water hose from the outlet of the last cooler to the exhaust elbow, and I have a 3/8th inch nipple welded into it that runs out to a small skin fitting.

One day sitting in Days Gutter I further modified it with an old rubber bung with a 1/8th hole drilled through it pushed into the skin fitting so that it squirts a bit further out, making it visible at idle from the helm, even when sitting down. With the 3/8th hose to the 1/2 inch skin fitting it didn't shoot out far enough at idle and I had to walk down the back to check it.

1/4" hose and fittings would probably be spot on.

Have fun with it all mate.

Cheers,
Myles

[rat_catcher]

Volvo. They chased me away when I couldn't get ANY info off their website.
Not sure where you are looking, but try this;

http://www.volvopenta.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Penta/Engine%20range/Marine%20Leisure/ML_engine_range.pdf