Refueling

[hellfisher]

Yesterday I was filling up the boat at my local servo the same one Ive been using for years, when over the loud speaker the console operator(new to the job) told me to fill the tanks on the ground , I proceeded to so then went to pay and questioned him about this ( I have no problem with fueling tanks on the ground just curious) First I asked what the danger was with plastic tanks in a fibreglass boat , Dunno just doing what im told. Then asked him how he knew I didnt have an under floor tank , didnt know there was such a thing. then asked what happens when I come here with the mates boat with a underfloor tank his reply. You prob have to fill a bottle then tip it into the tank. (that would be nice 120L from a bottle) I told him we might fuel the underfloor tanks at the next servo up the road from now on.... Does any one know the correct laws in regards to refueling boats in NSW if there is any. I assume portable tanks are to be filled on the ground & underfloor tanks can be filled in the boat

thanks Luke..

[rowanda]

hi mate
any tank 25L or less must be placed on the ground when filling. I have personally seen 3 catch fire from static when not placed on the ground over the years.

[Crocodile]

Hello,
I have two 25l red plastic Sceptre tanks and always leave them in the boat to refuel because I have a bad back and cannot lift them when full.
I always touch the nozzle onto the aluminium boat to discharge any static electricity first.
I usually empty the egg-cup full or so that is left in the nozzle onto the ground so that it does not spill inside the boat.
I think that the attendant was over-zealous, as what happens with an in-built tank?
What happens to the static with a car? why is there no spark?

[4x4frog]

We've all experienced static from the car at some stage but IMO, in the m, middle of a tropical sumer? Not likely, just over zealous attendant I'd say.

[Kevaclone]

The Console Ops are only following Company procedures, any "Removable" fuel container MUST be placed on the ground as it is not earthed to the vehicle/boat, especially if it's sitting on carpet or other matting material, and of course fiberglass and Poly plastics are a great static generators


Fixed fuel containers(such as inbuilt fuel tanks) can be fueled as per normal as they are usually earthed to the boat through their mounting or fixings


If you do not place removable tanks on the ground(no matter how bad your health is) they can and may refuse to authorize the pump. If I am on site and I see you attempting to fill a container not placed on the ground and you refuse my request to do so I WILL shut down all pumps in the place via the "emergency shut off" this will leave you to explain to everyone else why you put their lives in danger


The "I will go elsewhere" doesn't really work either as ALL major fuel Companies follow the same procedure, only the dodgy independents don't and would you really buy fuel from them would you?


If you need help lifting your fuel containers ask someone for help, the Console ops will help as they are required to


And lastly, if you don't think it's that dangerous, go visit a burns unit at a Hospital......... Don't F**k with petrol or it WILL F**K YOU UP

[hellfisher]

Thanks for the replies, like I said before I have no problem fueling on the ground & will do so from now on. Just ammused how the attendant assumed i had removeable tanks without seeing in the boat & it will be interesting next time we go there with the mates boats with underfloor tanks when this operator is on duty,

[Crocodile]

Hello Hellfisher,

The console operator probably had a look via the surveilance camera.
Don't pick your nose or scratch your behind, it is all recorded.

As for asking the operator to help, I think that is very optimistic.

[Kevaclone]

Nahh you'd be surprised Crocodile. unless it's just the one op on duty and it's extremely busy
I've never met one that wouldn't give you a hand if you do the right thing, you may even get another customer willing to help you. better to wait for the console op to help than to wait for the ambos and fireys to arrive

[Mike Delisser]

While refueling I had the cops tell me to remove the red port tank in the small boat once (in Qld), at the time it was the 1st I'd heard of it.

[Kevaclone]

It came about a few years ago when ute manufacturers started using Poly plastics for tray liners or for the entire tray(Ala Ford) people used to fill drums in old metal ute trays and it wasn't so much of a problem but the new plastic trays and liners caused a lot of static build up, The number of Ute fires was climbing quite quickly and so the AIP recommended that all fuel drums/containers be placed on the ground and filled


This did two things
lowered the risk of static build up having nowhere to go but up the fuel nozzle'
And just as important, lowered the risk of petrol spraying all over the vehicle when the person filling the container jumped back when it went woof, Nozzle in hand and the trigger still open(imagine doing that in a wagon with kids in the back seat... Horrible thought isn't it)

[Kevaclone]

Hello,

What happens to the static with a car? why is there no spark?


the static build up in a car is dissipated through the tyres believe it or not

the tyres having a very large amount of carbon in them does conduct electricity
The static shock you might get when you touch the car door etc. is a build up of static on you and it is being earthed through the car to ground


also the plastic fuel tanks are made of conductive plastics and have a static strap that connects to the car body


Although early XD Falcons didn't have this and there were some static fires caused by this, it was fixed by fitting a metal ring at the filler neck and connecting that to the car body

[White Pointer]

Hello,
I have two 25l red plastic Sceptre tanks and always leave them in the boat to refuel because I have a bad back and cannot lift them when full.
I always touch the nozzle onto the aluminium boat to discharge any static electricity first.
I usually empty the egg-cup full or so that is left in the nozzle onto the ground so that it does not spill inside the boat.
I think that the attendant was over-zealous, as what happens with an in-built tank?
What happens to the static with a car? why is there no spark?

G'day,

Sorry Crocadile but bad back or not, the plastic tanks have to be on the ground to ground them. They are insulated against your efforts to ground the boat before refuelling.

Don't empty the fuel gun before you start refueling. Take what's free. Evaporation losses are one of the greatest polluters with transport fuels so keep everything you can get - for the environment, mind. The greatest losses through evaporation are the rich fuel-air mixture expelled from your tank when you refuel. Pity it isn't captured.

Cars with plastic fuel tanks have an earth wire from the metal fuel neck filler to the vehicle chassis.

WARNING: If you bought a ute with a steel tub that has a plastic fuel tank and you have converted it to a tray back make sure there is and earth from the fuel neck filler to the chassis. This is not critical with diesels but is essential with petrols.

Regards,

White Pointer

[sleepygreg]

One of the things I love about Ausfish.....We have members who have the expertise and knowledge to be able to keep us all in line and informed of critical issues that could affect our wellbeing and lifestyle. Thanks Kev and WP.

Greg

[rowanda]

G'day,

Sorry Crocadile but bad back or not, the plastic tanks have to be on the ground to ground them. They are insulated against your efforts to ground the boat before refuelling.

Don't empty the fuel gun before you start refueling. Take what's free. Evaporation losses are one of the greatest polluters with transport fuels so keep everything you can get - for the environment, mind. The greatest losses through evaporation are the rich fuel-air mixture expelled from your tank when you refuel. Pity it isn't captured.

Cars with plastic fuel tanks have an earth wire from the metal fuel neck filler to the vehicle chassis.

WARNING: If you bought a ute with a steel tub that has a plastic fuel tank and you have converted it to a tray back make sure there is and earth from the fuel neck filler to the chassis. This is not critical with diesels but is essential with petrols.

Regards,

White Pointer

all new sites being built have to have vapour recovery systems in place and there is a date for all current sites to have them fitted aswell. It is a few years away yet, but it is coming.

[danners]

ive never heard of this before :o

is there no way to ground the static off the fuel tank to be able to safely fill while it's in the boat? where my tank sits it's kind of awkward access to pull the whole thing out (moreso to put it back in when full), not a huge margin of gap and requires a fair deal of contortionism to angle it through

[Kevaclone]

ive never heard of this before :o

is there no way to ground the static off the fuel tank to be able to safely fill while it's in the boat? where my tank sits it's kind of awkward access to pull the whole thing out (moreso to put it back in when full), not a huge margin of gap and requires a fair deal of contortionism to angle it through


don't worry there are plenty of people who don't know, though it has been a requirement for a few years now, ever servo has a "DOs & DON'Ts" sticker on or near the pumps, you should read it first.


As for your tank, if you mounted it properly in a cradle and used a(proper fuel rated) remote filler neck it would be a lot safer and a hell of a lot easier


One thing not mentioned is the fact that filling a tank inside the boat you are also filling the boat with fuel vapours. So if you then start moving stuff creating static or switching electrics etc. you risk igniting those vapours. Same as filling drums inside a car boot or wagon, you are filling your car with vapours

[danners]

thanks kev. the tank is in the rear corner, with a small piece of casting deck above but otherwise in the open (its an open tinny)

i'll definately look into a remove filler neck- what do you mean mounted properly in a cradle?

the reason it's a little difficult to remove is because there is a strut welded on (not even entirely sure what it's there for) which makes it a tight fit (22.5L tank)

nowhere else i can really put the fuel tank in my setup

cheers
Dan

[testlab]

ive never heard of this before :o

is there no way to ground the static off the fuel tank to be able to safely fill while it's in the boat? where my tank sits it's kind of awkward access to pull the whole thing out (moreso to put it back in when full), not a huge margin of gap and requires a fair deal of contortionism to angle it through

One only needs to look at how aircraft refuelling is performed. The bowser and airframe are connected together via a ground wire. The trigger nozzle and fuel tank filler are then connected together with another wire. All this is done before opening the tank cap.

This may be impractical at a service station and would probably cause more concern from the console op and other customers if they see you trying to wire something to the bowser.

It only takes the vapour from one cupfull of petrol, in an enclosed space, to blow a 20ft boat to pieces (how many pieces is the question).

[Crocodile]

Hello All,

I really must wonder about this.
Every week there must be thousands of tanks filled and yet we don't see the burnt out hulks littering the countryside. I have been filling plastic tanks that sit in tinnys for twenty years now and never had any problems. I have siphoned petrol from the tanks to jerrys and back. No problems.
Have the laws of physics suddenly changed ?
How many people have actually seen a petrol tank go kaboom?
I understand that filling a tank in the boat displaces the fumes in the boat but you would only need to tow it 1/2 a KM to blow the fumes out of an open boat, cabins may be more of an issue.
Maybe I need to buy a flameproof suit(not asbestos, of course).

[Malcolm W]

Copy and paste from the QLD boatsafe workbook


Never refill portable fuel tanks in the boat—take them
ashore for filling and wipe off any spillage before replacing
them aboard.

[Crocodile]

Hello All,

clearly I need to find out how to ground my tanks inside the boat.
Any body know how to do this?
Where to find out?

[Kevaclone]

Hello All,

I really must wonder about this.
Every week there must be thousands of tanks filled and yet we don't see the burnt out hulks littering the countryside. I have been filling plastic tanks that sit in tinnys for twenty years now and never had any problems. I have siphoned petrol from the tanks to jerrys and back. No problems.
Have the laws of physics suddenly changed ?
How many people have actually seen a petrol tank go kaboom?
I understand that filling a tank in the boat displaces the fumes in the boat but you would only need to tow it 1/2 a KM to blow the fumes out of an open boat, cabins may be more of an issue.
Maybe I need to buy a flameproof suit(not asbestos, of course).


Nothing has really changed and the tank doesn't explode, it's the vapours around the tank(and you) that ignite

Most of the fires at servos don't rate a mention in the news because they are USUALLY small and quickly extinguished but I have seen plenty of the reports over the years to know it's not uncommon


Saying you've been doing it for 20 years doesn't mean it will never happen, you have just been lucky, one day the conditions will be right and you will hear the dog bark


Now with vapours in the boat, you are in the boat with ya thongs on filling the tank, you move about and your thongs rub on the carpet creating static, you put your hand near some bare part of the boat and a spark jumps from you to the boat, Dogs barks and you now have no hair


Just some info about me, I am a Tanker driver and have been for over 20 years and I take this stuff seriously, I've known some who have died from fuel fires. I did know the guy who died at Tintenbar on NY Eve also

here is just two from youtube of people filling containers in utes


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wiUBCMdO7Y

[Kevaclone]

Note the way he splashes more petrol around when he jumps back, imagine a Kid sitting in there watching as Kids are wanting to do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tYO4jvnJHw

[Crocodile]

Hello Kevaclone ,
Well put, you have the experience and training.
I usually stand beside the boat on the concrete and lean in.
Is my body acting as an earth?
Is that why I am still here?
Can anybody offer some science on how plastic tanks can be safely grounded?
Thanks vbmenu_register("postmenu_1238910", true);

[rowanda]

simple metal strap or wire to the ground from the tank is the easiest way. Some sites do have clip on earth straps but not many. Just a length of nice conductive cable, clip on your tank then lay on the ground, would cost about $5 i reckon....better than ending up like the guy in the video!
Also, remember to have the nozzle touching the tank when filling...very important or the static will build up in the nozzle as you fill and then when you touch it later on the tank....well.....

[PinHead]

if that happens to me I hope those people i nthe first video don;t come to help me..someone should have told to just put the shirts etc o nthe flames and not flap more air onto them.

I take my plastic tank out ofthe boat and take the crocs or thongs off also..earth myself to the ground first.

But then again..how many people do you see carrying gas bottles inside an enclosed vehicle..that is also illegal but many do it.

[MikeyS]

Took me a while Kev, but worked out that "Dog bark" is clearly a technical term used in the industry - WOOF. Luv it! although it's not something anyone wants to hear too often.

Interesting to see people in the video rushing to the guy's "assistance" only to fan the flames with their clothing rather than smothering them.

Good to hear from someone with authority and experience in these things.

[Coontakinta]

if that happens to me I hope those people i nthe first video don;t come to help me..someone should have told to just put the shirts etc o nthe flames and not flap more air onto them.



I actually had a laugh at that video PH.
Wondered if they were trying to put out the flames or were kicking shit out of the guy for putting them in danger ;D

[ozscott]

I actually had a laugh at that video PH.
Wondered if they were trying to put out the flames or were kicking shit out of the guy for putting them in danger ;DThis British guide refers to portable tabks at Ch 5 but says if being used as permanent tanks they must comply with Chapter 2...Chapter 2 notes that metal tanks and metal fillers are to be grounded. You see very large plastic tanks being sold for boats with no earth straps. I would have thought touching the bowser nozzle to the tank before opening the lid and then having the filler nozzle touching the tank filler throat at all times during the fill would be the way to go with the tank still in the boat.

Cheers

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/180428/bss%2520guide%25202005%2520complete%2520web.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi9l4qU5rTXAhVEPrwKHUsYCO0QFggoMAA&usg=AOvVaw0McL9GOGif42hOOHmJeQl_


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[ozscott]

Also see here http://moellermarine.com/moeller-marine/fuel-containment/12-gallon-permanent-below-deck-boat-fuel-tank-032512/

This is a small but permanent plastic tank. The instructions don't mention an earth rewyirement. Cheers

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[ozscott]

Ok isn't this the final word on the issue...

If it's an approved container you can leave in situ...in context that means in the boat.

Cheershttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171110/98e6c49078afc6f55f7d45c3adc7a046.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171110/4f8b7ff70255617e47a4903f4f3fbc6c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171110/449ffce059ad74c3d87150f80644fb85.jpg

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[ranmar850]

Part of my job involves reading and understanding Australian Standards, and this excerpt (Note)does clearly state " approved portable fuel tanks for boats may be filled in situ" HOWEVER. when you are reading anything AUS/NZS, you must always be cognisant of the fact that you just can't grab the bit that suits you and run with it. There are disclaimers in every standard that effectively tell you to read everything that is pertinent to the particular sub-topic as there may be exclusions or exceptions elsewhere in the document. Not saying this is the case in this particualr instance, just saying.
And also, this is the minimum standard. Other entities may choose to apply higher standards, which exceed the minimum requirements , and these may be put into law. These entities can include State governments, among others. So if it's the law in Queensland , it's the law, regardless of what AUS/NZS may say on the matter. if it is used in a Code of Practice, those affected ( in this case, servo operators)by it are bound by it.
To those who say" I've been doing this for a hundred years, never happened to me or me mates, good enough for grandad, good enough for me, what's changed, blah blah, blah"--I run into this attitude a lot in my particular field, which is High Voltage electrical. One of the highest risks is Arc Flash, where an electrical arc caused by operator error or switchgear failure causes an instantaneous plasma cloud, which can approach 20, 000 degrees C ( puts a lousy petrol fire to shame) , and the operator is facing it. I have sufficient visual evidence at my disposal to convince the most hardened sceptic of the value of following procedure and wearing the correct PPE.
I personally fill my tote tanks in my boat , in the boat, ( fibreglass) and the operators at my local servo have never had an issue with it. I don't know of any codes of practice or legislation in WA that require their removal, glad to be informed other wise? The fact that the boat is still dripping wet, having travelled 900 metres from the ramp, would be a risk mitigating factor. ( I always fuel up on the way home, always leaving before servos are open) I have another annual scenario where I have to refuel 10 jerrycans ( ULP) in a remote town, driving in 150 k's from our remote campsite. Jerrys are on the back of a steel trayed ute, bottoms on a piece of carpet (bad corrugations) but backs against tray and all tightly tied together. I have a habit of resting one hand on the bowser and another on the jerrys before I even open a lid or the attendant ( non self service) lifts the hose, and get a nod of approval from him.

[tug_tellum]

Our servo wont even let me fill Diesel Jerry Can in the back of a ute. You can throw a match into diesel and it will just go out or am I wrong about diesel?
Mick

[ozscott]

Ranmar I agree. I cannot see any contrary statutory provisions nor advisory standards and as such the AS is probably best practice.

See also http://acapmag.com.au/home/2017/07/filling-diesel-containers-service-stations/

Overall I am satisfied about filling plastic approved containers in boats taking the precautions I referred to above. Everyone else can please themselves.

Cheers

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[docaster]

I think an important note is to keep the nozzle touching the filling neck. As far as i know the pump nozzle is earthed to the bowser, and i like to touch the boat when filling as well