Glass hulls with Wood

[Whitefin]

Hi to the Forum,

Reading through posts it appears wood or ply in fibreglass hulls can rot a need repairs. Are new boats still built with timber in them? I am looking at Cruise Craft, Signature, Hunter around 6 metres (or a bit less), but happy to consider anything. Don't want a boat that rots though.

Cheers
David

[Kill Bill]

All of those brand listed still use timber in their construction - additionally they are also 3 of the most reputable brands in the country. I think the proofs in the pudding as all of them still have boats on the water that were built in their early days. To add to that the manufacturers now have superior timbers, resins, glass and gelcoats available to them as oppsoed to what was available in the 1960's, hence there is no real reason why boats built using timber stringers today wont live to see the next 40 or so years.

[googarra]

Eventually water will claim the timbers in all boats using standard timbers and plys. Unless it is some exotic timber it eventually rot, some quicker than others.

I purchased a 1991 Haines Signature 700L, not a mark on the hull, great original boat, but it developed a crack along the keel just forward of the transom. I took the floors out and went down to the outer skin to re-build it so I knew what I was floating in 100 km outside

I was very dissapointed in the quality of Signature's build. It only had one layer of glass and matt over all of the critical joins, all stringers and cross sections were cracked through front to back, side to side, and no water tight floatation chambers were sealed from factory. The boat would have sunk very easily.

All cross bracing was rotted because all of the drain holes from front to back were drilled after glassing which exposed the timber to water from day one.

The underside of the top floor, 20mm ply, was not sealed with resin at all on the underside and the first two layers of ply were gone.

Being 7 metres long and needing stringers longer than the standard 2400mm ply sheet size, all stringers were joined with a backing plate with only one layer of glass over them. This would have been fine if they had staggered the joins at different ends of the boat, but no, they were all in the same place, about a metre forward of the transom right across the boat and all cracked.

In summing up, all joins that were cracked were soft and rotted, but only minor. 60 kgs of resin, a sheet of high density foam, and I cant remember how much matting and flowcoat later, it is better than new.

A friend of mine just down the road works from home (rural area) and has made his living for the past 30 years from glass boats that have timber stringers. At any time he could have up to 20 boats in the yard awaiting major repairs exactly as described above.

All the top names, mostly Haines though.

A Haines 2050 hull is there at the moment exactly the same lower hull section as my boat. All stringers rotted out and were removed down to the skin. $10,000 later it will be back to 'as new' again.

The guy that bought it paid top dollar for it and the previous owner would not have know what was under the floors.

He would be out of a job if they did not use timber and ply in hulls of glass boats.

His favourite saying 'they are all doomed from the day they leave the factory'

Dont let this put you off glass boats, just have a real good look at what you are buying. The only real way to know what stage of 'doomed' the boat is at is a camera into every crevice and bung hole and that will still be only some idea of what it there.

A few pics of my re-build

63146
63147
63148
63149

Cheers

[Roughasguts]

I have to concur with goongarra, My Signature' bung holes are just drilled in to the transom not sealed just leaving exposed ply to sit in water and start the Rotting process.

Mind you there sealed now but you would think Signature would do it for you when they build your boat.

Cheers.

[Jarrah Jack]

The yanks haven't used timbers in their glass boats for years, the same as they don't have welded alloy trailers. I know that coutacraft, a small manufacturer of quality boats ,don't use timber any more so there is no good reason for the majors to be using it.

[Noelm]

There is a compromise between cost and ease of build, and the ability to sell the boat when finished, if a manufacturer built a boat "properly" it would be very very expensive, and as such, no one would buy them, so they would disappear, but some manufacturers go too far to save cost, the example above is "normal" no treatment on the underside of the floor, indeed one very popular brand of boat used masonite for floors, it is possible to build a boat without timber, some used foam, that just got water logged anyway and fell to bits, some have proper moulded kind of stringers and so on, but these are a premium price and most wont pay it. I guess in a way it is the same as cars, not everyone drives a Rolls Royce do we?

[tropicrows]

In the end it all comes down to money and what there rivals are doing.
Most manufactures (not only boat manufactures) see not reason in changing how they made something for years until they have to.
You can buy ply manufactured for use in wet damp area, it wont "rot" even if you drill holes in it as each layer of ply is treated before their glued together, but I bet not many boat manufactures use it because of cost, the same goes with using high density foam instead of any timber..

[FNQCairns]

Wood has been shown consistently over and over to be overall the best boat building product all the way throughout warranty periods.:)

Outside of this through the life of the boat and on a sliding scale all of the other replacement materials start to catch up.

[Cootac]

The yanks haven't used timbers in their glass boats for years, the same as they don't have welded alloy trailers. I know that coutacraft, a small manufacturer of quality boats ,don't use timber any more so there is no good reason for the majors to be using it.




Yes we do not use any wood in our boats what so ever.;)

Guys this is 2010 time to wake up no wood no rot simple realy

I have seen same boats 6-10 years old and with rot transoms , floors etc.:-[

There is a better product on the market but it is $$$$ , and wood will
outlast your warranty on a new boat , so the big boys are not going to spend big $$$$ for better product for you @ the end off the day it comes saving $$$$

Just ask Kill bill ;D

[surveyor]

Hey Couta roughly what pecentage of cost does high tec materials compared to wood add to a new boat (you pick a size for equivalent) does it raise the cost also in labour??:)

[sharkcat one]

Hi Guy's ,

I own Attack Boats, I also don't use timber in our boats.

Surveyor--- Their is really no high tec materials used , it's more of using your high tec brain to work out another way of doing things. For example-- replacing stringers and under sole bulkheads with solid glass is not that hard to work out, you can either do as I do and build a moulded stringer system ( spider mould ) or lay-up flat sheets of fibreglass and then cut and use them as you would use ply.

In the transom area you can use high den. foam around 300kg or just keep laying fibreglass until you reach the thickness you need .

Having a mould for our stringers and under sole bulkheads makes life much easier , eg-- the time it takes to lay-up in a mould is around 4 times faster than someone cutting ply from templates , flashing the ply, fitting and glassing it to the boat. And with a moulded stringers the part comes out of the mould the same every time. You cut out human error .

When people try and sell you a boat and say it cost more because the boat has no ply . Their feeding you lies.

The only exception is when the boat has foam sandwich floor , this is costly. For example ply cost around $25-$40 per square mtr and foam costs around $60-$80 per square mtr.

It is true that per square mtr fibreglass costs more than ply, BUT if you have moulds and include the cost of labour to make and fit ply V glass , fibreglass is cheaper by a long shot.

The biggest cost in boat building is not materials , it's LABOUR . So if you have moulds for everything your material costs will be slightly higher , but your labour cost is greatly reduced. Their is also less waste , as the moulded part comes out of the mould the same way everytime and the manually cut item can look different from boat to boat depending on who is doing that job that day or how many drinks he had the night before.


hope that helps

[Jarrah Jack]

Well done sharkcat one....Should lay to rest the argument about timber in glass boats for good. if the majors don't turf the wood out then they are simply being lazy about changing old practises and is just another sad example of poor thinking altogether..

At the cost of the consumer again. Easier to increase the marketing budget than do anything meaningfull. We're also not the most demanding of consumers either.

[sheridan]

I have a 1974 163c haines hunter it still has original transom & floor thats 36 years old what a great boat

Geoff

[sharkcat one]

Hi Guy's

On the other hand I can see why some of the major companies don't change from ply stringers and floors. For example -- to change to moulded stringers you have to spend lots of money on tooling which includes making plugs and moulds and re-training staff on the new system , this can be costly if you have alot of different models. But if they have new models comming out I don't see why they cannot use moulded stringers and floors on the new models .

Maybe think of this------ Maybe this is one of the reasons that they don't change from using timber---- If they have new models comming out every year , they need more customers , so why build a boat that will last a life time , why not build a boat that lasts only 5 to 10 years before replacing the stringers and floors ? Because most people won't replace the stringers and transom , they will just sell it and buy a new one . Because in the big world of making lots of profit it doesn't make sense to build something that will last forever. Most of everything in our lives is made to break , because the big companies know that when it breaks the average Joe Blow will just go out and buy another one , and we do ( we don't question why it broke , we just think it's broken and I need a new one ) . Maybe some of the bigger boat companies are doing this too.


P.S - Sherdian---- unless you have owned your boat from new , how would you even know if the stringers and floor have been replaced . I have replaced quite a few transoms and stringers and some of the one's I have done you wouldn't be able to tell that they have been replaced.


cheers.

[Roughasguts]

I don't know about that shark cat, about expecting your transom to last maybe 5-10 years then fall off.

Would we expect our cars to lose the tow bar around this time just cause it's a few years old. If it did there would be a major re-call on all the vehicles that are affected fixed for free! and probably major class action if death or injury resulted as well.

Makes me wonder if these boats are built for the purpose that we bought them for! I don't think it's un reasonable to expect our boats to be water proof! Theres no disclaimer saying if exposed to water major damage may result! But maybe there should be.

Cheers.

[Whitefin]

Hi to the Forum,

Reading through posts it appears wood or ply in fibreglass hulls can rot a need repairs. Are new boats still built with timber in them? I am looking at Cruise Craft, Signature, Hunter around 6 metres (or a bit less), but happy to consider anything. Don't want a boat that rots though.

Cheers
David

Hi to the Forum,

As the OP of this thread, thanks very much for the responses - much appreciated. Since the OP I have been to Perth and checked out all of the above brands at the respective dealers. They all claim no wood is used in these boats now. I pressed this point and rephrased the question as well but the response from these guys is definitely NO WOOD.

Where does that leave me? Who really knows? Looks like I need to talk to the manufacturers direct!!

Thanks again.

Cheers
David

[Dave_H]

googara wrote:



The underside of the top floor, 20mm ply, was not sealed with resin


Am I missing something here.....? If a fixed in place floor was sealed underneath and got moisture in the floor how exactly would the moisture get back out and not rot out completely within 12 months? I don't think I've ever seen a floor sealed underneath (unless you're talking about hatches or the like?) and my original floored/transomed 1970 Caribbean Cobra (in the family since new) is testament to that.

[googarra]

Perfect example re my previous post Signature boats or any ply and timber in glass boats.

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=169699

Better look a lot further than the transom, unfortunately