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View Full Version : Should I Repower 5.2 KC with twin 60 Suzuki's ?



Chris20984
27-10-2010, 08:40 PM
Hi all, I am in need of some assistance with regards to re powering a 94 5.2 tournament Kevlacat. Yes I know this is an constant discussion ;D but i am yet to find anyone who has put the new 60 Suzuki's on yet. From all the researched i have done so far it is down to:

1. DF60 Suzuki xl at 107 kg.

2. FT60D Yamaha at 125 kg.

3. F70 A Yamaha at 120 kg.

From what i have read on this forum people are happy with the performance of 120 hp on the back of the 5.2. WOT speed of 30 and cruise at 24 kts, which is OK, would love to get there a bit faster but who wouldn't hey ;)

The only reason for the 60 4 stroke is the weight problem (original motors were 117 kg 2 st johnsons i was told) and i cant afford to upgrade to the larger pods.

The extra cost of the 70 yamie's and the similar performance results out of the 60 is no really worth the extra coin for the 70's i think ?

As for 2 strokes, i don't dislike them but i will be doing big trips and have been told 4 st is the way to go.

I am leaning towards getting the Suzuki's because;

1. a little bit lighter than the yammie.
2. excellent name/reliability.
3. excellent local dealer.

The only thing will be setting them up right, eg motor setting height and prop ?
I have read that 2 3/4 inch between the hull bottoms and the cavplate and 15K Props are defiantly the way to go with FT60's, will it be much the same for the suzuki's ? The only difference is the gear ratio- yammie = 2.33 ; 1 and suzuki 2.27;1.

Spray plates are a must too ?

Any information would be appreciated. Cheers Chris.

Noelm
28-10-2010, 07:11 AM
Suzukis for sure, light as a feather and very good performance, any weight saving is a big bonus.

julian1
29-10-2010, 09:48 AM
maybe have a chat with Solas and see what prop would suit best, i would think a sort of high thrust prop style would help on that set up

Chris20984
01-11-2010, 08:20 PM
I have some more questions, following on from the thread about the raised pods.

1. So the standard pods ( which i assume mine are ) are suppose to have the 'long' leg motors on them to achive the 2 & 3/4 inch setting height ?

2. If i were to have the standard pods modified as per the pic shown then i would require xl leg motors ?

3. Is i a major problem with just having the 'L' motors with unmodified pods. How wet do the motors get ? Obviously this is not good to have the motors swamped ever time you come down off the plane, rough conditions etc.

4. Is the money spent on modifying the existing pods better put towards the new larger pods from KC @ 3,000 for the pair. And then there is the advantage of bolting on heavier motors.

5. I have also been told small spray plates are a must if you want your motors not sucking in mist/spray.

Hey Dean, not sure if my KC is the one you seen at burpengary. I picked this one up at Cleavland about a month ago. Bit of a story behind it. The bloke told me he re-powered it with 2 new e-tecs. off he went fishing, time to come home and the motors turned over but a bit slower than normal so he is thinking it is the batteries on the way out. looks into it more back on dry land and the motors had ceased. He reckons it was due to sucking in mist, and the dealer told him the damage is not covered by warranty.

I have got nothing against e-tecs, and as far as i know this bloke could have just told me a lot of BS. At the end of the day i picked up a motor-less 5.2 KC in excellent condition, Aluminium trailer with ALKO suspension and $4k worth of near new sounder and plotter for $29k ;D( he was asking $32k ) So i am happy, all i have to do is lots of research to get it setup to get the best out of it.

fly_1
01-11-2010, 09:35 PM
I would spend a couple of grand, get the pods modified to take the XL motors and bolt on a pair of the new yamaha 70hp 4 strokes. It will be a great boat , and you wont have any weight issues. I had 60's on mine for years and it never missed a beat. I say go the 70's, as that little bit more power would be nice on those days you may have to cross a bar etc.
Trent

Smithy
02-11-2010, 04:50 AM
Have a talk to Gav at Victory Parts Kunda Park about it all. He is a 5.2KC guru. He bought a couple of new F70 Yammies to try on his 5.2, swapping from high thrust 60s. He will give you the good oil on if the extra 10hp was worth it or not.

Dean1
02-11-2010, 08:03 AM
Yes I would get your existing pods modified (add another 5" to the top like the pic i put up from Gavs boat) and bolt on the new 70 Yamaha 4 strokes. If you can afford them of course. They are the best option at the moment.

You got a good buy there i looked at that boat thinking it was a good buy.
And ive heard that that was the case with the etecs, never heard of them blowing up motors like that!! Bloody etecs :-X

The 70's do cost quite a bit more than the F 60's but i feel it would be worth it.

The F 60's are good and definatly do the job but a bit more top end would be good.

28kts top speed with the 60's i got 30kts with no load.

Ive spoken to Gavin about the 70's he is playing around with different props at the moment trying to get the cruise revs down a bit.

Call him on 0754562477 he's a bit hard to talk to on the phone till you get to know him.

Youll be hard pressed to find a better price on motors he can do the lot, modify pods and install motors.

And yes spray plates are a must.

Regards, Dean.

Chris20984
02-11-2010, 03:05 PM
Gave Gavin a ring, that man knows what he is on about ! Thanks guys. Gavin recommended the xl 70's with the pod extensions for the best possible setup.

I would love to go this way but i am not sure the extra dollars spent on the modified pods and the 70's is much better than the long 60 suzuki's on the standard pods.

I am not completely convinced that the 60 suzuki's would be that bad of an option. for these reasons.

1. The 60 suzuki rev's out the same as the 70 yammie ( 6,300 ) is this the primary reason the 70 yammie on the back of a 5.2 KC tops out at 34 knots, and the 60 yammie tops out at 28 knots ? Dose this mean the higher reving 60 suzuki would be slightly faster than the 60 yammie. I realize gearing and props would also be influential and lets not forget the extra 10 hp.

2. The long suzuki is about 16 kg lighter than the 60 & 70 yammie, so that is a total of around 32 kg less on the arse of the cat, so it should sit a bit higher in the water ? Is there still a need to extend the pods and go the xl motors in this case.

I was told the orignal motors on the cat would have been 70 2st johnsons @ 117 kg per motor, surely putting 60 suziki's that are 104 kg, that gives a total of 26 kg less on the back, would this reduced weight cancel the need to extend the pods and go to xl motors.

It would be a lot easier to decide if there was someone else out there with the new 60 suzuki's on a 5.2 KC.

Please feel free to point out any problems you can see with my idea's. I am open to all opinions.

Cheers Chris.

Lovey80
02-11-2010, 04:22 PM
I am almost 100% certain I saw that boat down at Cleveland a while back with a pair of 2 Etecs sitting on it with the powerheads removed. So i think you got the right story with that one.

Scaredy Cat
03-11-2010, 02:18 PM
I would be dropping the 60s and going the Yam 70 or Suz 90 (allthough unsure of the weight) as I was not happy with 60's.
Put them on and try it, as you can always modify pods later if needed.
Where is Kitty Cat when you need him!! As he has Suz 90's on the same boat with mod pods

Chris20984
03-11-2010, 05:07 PM
I would be dropping the 60s and going the Yam 70 or Suz 90


What was the problem with the 60's.


(allthough unsure of the weight)
The 2010 suzuki is 164 kg, which i have been told is too much weight ? with out going to the larger newer pods which give more buoyancy to keep the power heads out of the water and flooding the back of the boat through the scuppers.


Put them on and try it, as you can always modify pods later if needed.

Where is Kitty Cat when you need him!! As he has Suz 90's on the same boat with mod podsHow are his pods modified ? are they more bouyant or higher to fit XL motors, I would be really interested to know.

Thanks Chris.

kitty_cat
03-11-2010, 05:29 PM
hey mate stayed clear a bit due to not wanting to confused you and it seemed you were sold on the 60hp suzukis with pod changes not an option
but!!!
if you are looking at the pod modifactions then the suzuki 90hp at 155kg and 1.5ltr block is they way to go (sorry yamaha guys ) but if you are going to modify the pods it doesnt make sence to max your boat out with 70hp (i havent seen any decent figures for improvements from the 60hp yamahas just saying i havent seen any not saying there isnt any)
ok some figures on the 90hp suzukis
0.45 ltrs per klm per engine 0.9 total (better than that just what i rely on for safety)
wot 41knots loaded
offset drive shaft does help weight but the deck is wet with 3 blokes ,150ltr esky with fish, 1/2 fuel tanks but if one bloke moves forward no water on deck at all so fine balance some days

mate if you are local to springwood area give me a call and you can come over for a look happy to take you for a run if you are interested maybe tee up a 70hp yamaha model and we can go out together i am interested on how these yamahas go.

wayne

Chris20984
03-11-2010, 06:01 PM
Hey kitty cat, I am way passed confused ;D There is a lot of info out there and i cant decide what is the best set up for me.

So when you say pod modifications you mean to extent the top of my 94 model pods which were originally built to take long motors by 5 inches so they can take XL's ?
.9 km/ltr is not bad for 180 hp, what is the cruising speed ?
And 41 knots is pretty dam quick.
I guess it is not ideal to have that much weight on the back but that is the price you pay for the extra HP. Is there any other disadvantages other than wet feet and the fact that the power head is closer to the water at rest ?

That would be great if we were able to organize the 90,70,60 KC's meet one day. That would be the ultimate comparison. I don't live down brissy way i am up a Hervey Bay but i would still jump at the chance to see any KC setup.

Thanks for the advise guys, feel free to tell me if i have made some stupid comments ;)

kitty_cat
03-11-2010, 07:32 PM
couple of pod pics

Chris20984
03-11-2010, 08:33 PM
Nice rig, your pods are a lot higher than mine, looks like that is the first thing on my to do list !;)

Smithy
03-11-2010, 11:07 PM
No matter what all boats should be XLs to keep the powerhead high and dry as much as possible. If you go the light motors you could get away with a little pod extension I guess without filling them in for extra bouyancy but I don't think it would be much of a problem for a good alloy welder to build them up and put a couple of spin outs on top anyway.

Chris20984
04-11-2010, 05:44 AM
I don't think it would be much of a problem for a good alloy welder to build them up and put a couple of spin outs on top anyway.

So i take it you mean it is better to increase the airtight volume by extending the entire top of the pod rather than just lengthening the face where the motors are attached ? This would not be much more costly anyway and would be worthwhile doing whilst the pods are off the boat.

Noelm
04-11-2010, 07:40 AM
Motor choice is a real problem hey! head, heart and wallet all need to align to make the choice, 60, 70, 90HP, L, XL, build up pods, extend pods, Yamaha, Suzuki Jesus where does it end? I am going through this exact thing and feel your pain big time, at least I have narrowed it down to 2 motors, (almost complete opposites) and no pods or shaft length to contend with.

Noelm
04-11-2010, 07:44 AM
I am not too sure adding height to the pod is of great benefit, the top of the pod does not go underwater (well except for maybe some wash) so just extending the plate the motor bolts to maybe the best option there, making the pod wider how ever is of great benefit to aid floatation, correct me if someone thinks this is not the case, any thoughts (good or bad) may help Chris with his dilemma!

Noelm
04-11-2010, 07:45 AM
OH, and I fully agree with Smithy, any new boat should be XL, and if possible XXL (30") dont really see much sense in making 20" transoms these days.

Chris20984
04-11-2010, 07:07 PM
I was looking at my pods again :-? this afternoon and concluded it would be a fair bit more work to make the entire pod taller rather than just to extend the one face as per the pic on page one of this thread.

I am hoping that if i only put a maximum of 120 kg per pod that it would not be necessary to increase the buoyancy. I wish i could afford to put larger HP/ heavier motors on but the dollars start to add up way too quick when we start talking about new pods from KC ( $3000 ) and 2x 90 zukes at $ 30,000. It would be an awesome machine but that is getting way out of my budget.

So that boils down to either the 60 yam/70 yam or 60 suzuki. As for the 70 yammie which would be my first option, but from the info i have seen in other threads it is hardly worth the extra $ 4,000.

So down to the yammie vs zuk. The suzuki is a bit dearer, only by 500 bucks per motor, Suzuki customer service/support and dealer knowledge is 100 times better than the yammi dealer, ( where i live ) which is a shame.

So the end result will be extended pods to take XL DF60A's. I can't find anyone who has done this yet which is a bit scary. If there is anything wrong with this combo please let me know :o

Am i right in assuming that the 60 suzki's should get very similar results as the other 5.2 KC 60 yammi combo's ?

Thanks for your advice. Chris.

Flex
04-11-2010, 07:24 PM
What size props can you swing off the Suzuki's? The 60yammy on most KC is the Hi-thrust version which has the same gearbox as a 100hp yammy. which is needed to get the required performance with the KC(dont quote me though)
.Can the suzuki do the same?

Chris20984
04-11-2010, 08:02 PM
The suzuki gearbox ratio is 2.27:1
The yammie gearbox ratio is 2.33:1
Yes the yammie ratio is slightly higher .06 but the suzuki revs out slightly higher to 6,300 where as the yammie is 6000. I am guessing this would make the end result much the same ? I would also assume the propping would be much the same too ?
I am sure someone out there can offer a bit more in depth advice on this ?

Noelm
05-11-2010, 07:00 AM
I am kind of thinking that with the 60 Suzies, extending the pods will not be necessary at all, they are a very light engine, plus have the off set dive shaft that helps a bit too, lots of things seem to favor the Suzuki (I think) save the cost of pod modification and spend it on "goodies"

Chris20984
05-11-2010, 05:49 PM
Yeh i did think about not bothering to extend the pods but decided that it would be a little better to extend/make the whole volume of the pod larger to take the XL motors. The reason behind the decision is 1, a mates brother is qualified to weld aircraft grade aluminum so he is more than capable to do the job, 2, i have a decent workshop where i can cut and shape the required pieces of ali to save a bit of coin. 3, a bit more buoyancy wont hurt. 4, it is always better to have the power head a bit further away from the salt water.

I totally agree with what Noel has to say, yes the Suzukis are pretty dam light, and the offset drive is a bonus in that it shifts the weight forward.

It would seem too simple to add 5 inches to the top of the existing pod? i will do some measuring to make sure the cav plate of the XL suzuki ends up 2 and 3/4 above the bottom of the hull and there is enough of the ali pod to bolt the motor to. Hope someone can tell me if this is the right way to determine the new height of the pod ?????

Thanks Chris.

nelton87
05-11-2010, 07:10 PM
Chris,

I have repowered quiet a few various designs in the cat configuration, First optio to me is there is a company at Caboulture that I think builds the pod for a builder on the sunshine coast. Maybe worth ringing winning yachts at caboulture and asking the question.

One of the vessels I did it was built a 5" extension with a new 20mm faceplate to bolt to the existing mounting holes and then through bolted from the rear and down from the top. After drilling we removed and powder coated to match the existing pod.

However in my belief the best option is to replace the pods and install new pods designed and certitfed by a Naval Architect as I do like to protect my butt now a day's.

My preference is the suzuki over the yammies as I do like the offset drive and they can spin a nice prop, Maybe talk to someone like Jon Eadie or the guys at Suzuki Marine.
Cheers
Nelton

No Fear
05-11-2010, 07:34 PM
How much is a 60 suzi worth - Im in the market for a cat and will probably repower with 2 of them.

This seems alright.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/SUZUKI-DF60A-4STROKE-/280584970164?pt=AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41542adfb4

Chris20984
05-11-2010, 07:49 PM
Hi Nelton87, I will give winning yacts a ring and have a chat to them. I think i understand what you have described is to achieve the 5 inch lift with out welding to the original pod ? I wish i could afford to replace the pods with ones from KC factory but $ 3000 is a lot of money. go the zuk !

Chris20984
05-11-2010, 07:58 PM
How much is a 60 suzi worth - Im in the market for a cat and will probably repower with 2 of them.

This seems alright.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/SUZUKI-DF60A-4STROKE-/280584970164?pt=AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41542adfb4

Hi no fear, you have to be careful with the weight, I think ( not 100 % sure ) the older suzuki 60 was the larger block, ie hevier. I assume that is why no one has put 60's on a 5.2 KC with original pods yet. ??
the 2010 model is only 107 kg and i have been quoted 10,130 for a new 'long' and about 10,500 for the XL.
That seccond hand price is pretty good depending on the weight / year.

julian1
05-11-2010, 08:52 PM
i think you will find that the DF60TX's that XL's are a very good price at the moment, ask you local Suzuki Dealer, should be nearly a better price than the 20" shafts

Dean1
06-11-2010, 12:13 PM
I think were only a few years away from a lightweight (120kg) 90hp motor the way technology is going. there is no simple answer to this, i was lucky enough to have the taller pods from factory like kitty kat but if i was in your position id really be thinking hard what to do. The other alternative is to buy some L shaft motors second hand and just bolt them straight on to get you up and running as you wont loose much money instead of rushing into the wrong decision.

Go for a run in as many 5.2's as you can mine is based at sunny coast if you want a spin, go in gavs with the 70's he's always more than happy to do that as well.

Gav will tell the story about the guy that made bigger pods and put hondas on and is dissapointed so ask him about that as well.

Surely its possible to add 5" to the top without pulling the pods off??? It mightnt come up as neat but is a quick fix if you did this and bought some 2nd hand motors??

Hope this helps, Deano..

fly_1
06-11-2010, 06:44 PM
I have been in the one with the 90hp hondas onit many times,and yes it goes great, but it did cause him abit of trouble getting it right. He got bigger pods made by the Kcat boys, and he still ended up having to move the batteries etc well forward to help with the weight distribution.
He is happy with it now, but yes it did cause a few headaches getting it right.
It is also a very heavily customised 5.2 kcat. He has storage wells/kill tanks in both hulls, a very large live bait tank between the motors , and 180l fuel tanks in each hull, so its alittle hard to compare it with most "normal" 5.2m kcats.
As Dean said above, go for a ride in a few different setups and you will soon work out what will work for you.

Chris20984
06-11-2010, 08:39 PM
WOW 180 liters x 2 is a lot of petrol/weight ! but 180 hp would be awesome ! The bigger pods from KC aren't real cheap ! it sounds like if you want to keep dry feet and go above 2x 60 hp you have to get them.

This dam KC re-powering is a very very complex ! Power vs weight vs bouyency etc,etc.

Chris20984
02-03-2011, 05:51 PM
Hey everyone, hoping some one can help me, i am not getting roughly the same figures as other KC owners. I orignally had 14 x 11 & 3/8 props on my KC and was pretty dam happy with the performance. Full of petrol, four people plus gear the 60's hit the revlimiter. @ 5000 rpm was 20 kts and WOT 6300 was 27 kts, 1.4 km per litre.

Hoping to pick up more top end speed / lower the revs, i put on 15 x 11 & 1/4 props, but i was bitterly dissapionted, took forever to get on the plane, the boat seams to dig its arse in and bog down really bad no matter where it is trimmed, @ 5000 rpm it was only doing 22 kts, fuel consumption was worse now 1.3 km per litre, Motors only reved to 5600 not any where close to 6300.

If a 60 yammie can spin 15's on a KC, a 60 suzi should be able too !

Cheers Chris.

Dean1
02-03-2011, 07:34 PM
Did you raise them that extra hole???? If not thats your problem I say.

Chris20984
02-03-2011, 07:58 PM
Not yet, :-[. I defiantly will be before it hits the water again. ;)
I was hoping that would be the solution. ;D;D;D

Thanks Dean. :)

I reckon you could help me with another little problem, i scared myself a bit coming home the other day:o, there was a small swell rolling east- west and the route i wanted to take was south which made me drive so that occasionally the cat would surf along a wave, this was all good till at the bottom of the wave the starbort hull decided to dig in hard causing the boat to loose speed and lean badly to the starbort.:o:o:o I tried having the port motor trimmed up more than the starboard, to lift the starboard bow. this was a little better. any other angle and the cat ate it up !

Is it just a cat thing to do that ? It is more likely i am not very experenced at driving it yet. ;D

Thanks for your help. ;)

Noelm
03-03-2011, 07:26 AM
without actually being there it is only a guessing game, but my old cat I never used to look at the motors (or the stupid trim gauges) and sometimes when I had the boat running "sweet" with a stern quarter sea, the difference in trim from one side to the other was almost scarey! dont be afraid to use the trim, try it in all directions untill you see what suits YOUR boat, I have been messing about with motor heights for a couple of weeks now, and I am now 30mm cav plate above the hull and going for another hole this saturday!, the difference in the performance is astounding, on the lowest hole (where I started) the boat had a sort of side to side "roll" which is very unusual for an 18' Sharkcat, pretty common in some others, after lifting 2 holes, and doing nothing else, that has gone! Doing another lift, then start with props to see what I can get out of it, even though the 90's have miles of go and torque, they have surprised me somewhat.

Noelm
03-03-2011, 07:30 AM
OH, I forgot, I am also fooling about with toe in and out, at the moment I have well over 20mm toe in (at the front) now I do not really profess to know a real lot about toe, but the boat seems to be very "happy" like that, I guess I am somewhat lucky in so much as I have almost everything I need to stuff around at my disposal, so it is only a bit of my own time on the week end for me. Anyone out there in boat land that fully understands toe in/out?

julian1
03-03-2011, 08:31 AM
Not yet, :-[. I defiantly will be before it hits the water again. ;)
I was hoping that would be the solution. ;D;D;D



i would not even be thinking about props until you have the engine heights right. also the engine heights that suit the Yammie's may not necessarily be the correct heights for the Suzuki's generally they like to be higher.

Noelm
03-03-2011, 08:56 AM
agree 100%, get all the setup right before you even start thinking about propellors, otherwise you are doing 10 things at once and do not get a real hold of whats doing what. There is a range of props out there that will do all sorts of things for you, find a Mercury dealer and get one of their free brochures on props, I have one and will post it to you if you can't find one, look past all the advertising "blurb" and read what blade shape and size, numbers of blades and so on will achieve, it is quite a good reference really and will give you some sort of base line to start at.

Alexzed
21-05-2011, 12:46 AM
Hi folks
I would like some advice on what to repower with...have a 5.6 metre seamaster (would be close to 1800 kg) with 115 Johnson ocean runners on at the moment (1998 models) was thinking of mercury optimax 115 as they are about the best priced on the market at the moment....wouldn't mind a 4 stroke but they are all fairly heavy...even the opti appears a lot heavier than the Johnson! I want something with great economy and quiet...yes I have read the mercury isn't too quiet but ok on the economy front. Something with the same kind of grunt as the old johnsons would do me fine.
Any suggestions...am concerned about going too small so am in a bit of a bind!!!!
Hope you can help
Alex

kitty_cat
21-05-2011, 08:25 AM
hey alex would be better to start a new thread with your details people will respond much better to a new one rather than ad add on from old post thats spacifically about 5.2 k/c

Alexzed
22-05-2011, 10:55 PM
Thanks will do