Open Water Safety Gear

[troy]

When you ask a dealer to include open water safety gear what should you expect to get.Troy

[Angla]

Expect a bigger bill.....And all the right (cheap) gear.

Cheers
Chris

[cormorant]

Plastic cup with water in it. ;D

Gotta love some dealers

Honestly all stuff on the required equipment list.

[oldboot]

It will depend on what state waters you are traveling in.

QLD and NSW rave different requirements..and remember NSW is due east of the southport seeway.

and by open waters do you mean "outside"?

either way there are lists.

cheers

[Marlin_Mike]

Here ya go troy

[PinHead]

Troy,
If buying the boat from a dealer I would imagine there was a contract involved. It is good practice to get everything listed individually on the contract then everyone knows where they stand.

[troy]

Troy,
If buying the boat from a dealer I would imagine there was a contract involved. It is good practice to get everything listed individually on the contract then everyone knows where they stand.

For the deal to go through i asked for open water safety gear.What i got was 2 anchors 4 life jackets flares 2 paddles and a hand held compass and torch with no batteries.I guess it was my fault for not saying what i wanted.Troy

[Angryant]

For the deal to go through i asked for open water safety gear.What i got was 2 anchors 4 life jackets flares 2 paddles and a hand held compass and torch with no batteries.I guess it was my fault for not saying what i wanted.Troy

I suppose it depends if an EPIRB is classed as safety gear or not??

[Scott nthQld]

This is what i would expect as a minimum:

406Mhz EPIRB
Official charts for Local waters
Fixed, liquid damped compass....installed
Life Jackets for capacity of boat
Fire Extinguisher
V-sheet
Flares
Paddles (depending on size of boat)
Bucket with lanyard (for manual bailing, always carry one on my boat and I think they are required in NSW)
WATERPROOF Torch (with batteries)
Mirror
Fire Extinguisher
First Aid kit
Anchor with suitable rops and chain

Don't really care how much extra this stuff would cost as I would be buying it anyways.

I read that sheet and its hard to believe that most of that stuff is "recommended"

[murf]

I am with Scott, I don't believe that some of that stuff is recommended :o in NSW it is a must have

cheers Murf

[lee8sec]

When you ask a dealer to include open water safety gear what should you expect to get.Troy

Like others said, where do you live, as Qld doesnt have "open water" nsw does & the list for there is http://www.maritime.nsw.gov.au/sbh/safetyequip_tables.html & if thats where you are i would expect everything listed.

In Qld its "partially smooth & beyond" or for epirb "2 nm from land".
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Safety/Information-for-new-boat-owners.aspx

Like you said, should of checked, atleast you got some gear, just not quite what you had expected . Leigh

[White Pointer]

G'day,

If you didn't get the gear required to register your boat (note the different requirements depending on size), for what you properly described as "use in open water", the dealer hasn't got a leg to stand on.

The Office of Fair Trading and Maritime Safety Queensland would probably be very interested to hear from you. Armed with this information, tell him to put it right, but offer to pay his out of pocket costs. Then if you have to take action for recovery you will be considered to have taken reasonable steps to negotiate a fair settlement.

BTW, if you do not have a VHF radio and a MROVCP (license) to use it, please consider this essential safety equipment even if its not in the regulations.

Regards,

White Pointer

[oldboot]

Indeed the dealer has both legas to stand on.

There are no requirements for safety equipment for regestration of a provate motor vessel.

Those requirements are for use and they are the responsibilty of the skipper.

I don't think maratime safety would be much interested till the moat hit the water.

Unless the open water safety gear was detailed or specified in the contract either by list or reference to something ...like...."open water safety gear as specified by NSW law"...... consumer affairs could not do much for you.

At this current time there are no roadworth obligations on private boat sellers in QLD.......we have the rediculous situation where the navigation lights on a very large portion of boats sold are simpy not compliant from manufacture or original sale.

If you want a compliant boat ya better make sure it is well speified in the contract.

cheers

[Noelm]

I could never understand how anyone could sell (or buy) a boat and not supply ALL the madatory safety gear for the boat, and if the buyer is supplying some gear them selves, it SHOULD be with the boat before it is ever registered, now I know people could just borrow (say) an EPIRB and then take it out of the boat later, but we have to start somewhere. To compare to the auto industry (which has been done to death) you cannot buy a new car without headlights (because you told the dealer you are only driving during the day time) or seatbelts, (because you dont plan on crashing) they should be with the boat and installed correctly on all new purchases and second hand sales, it would increase the price of course, but you have to buy it sometime anyway, and all deals would be increased by the same amount from dealer to dealer (well very close) an EPIRB is only mandatory if you are more than a set distance from shore, so the dealer can get away with not supplying one, bugger that, in an "offshore" boat it should be fitted, end of story. Another pet hate of mine is the silly crap anchor and rope they supply with new boats, the regs clearly state "an anchor and rope" so a piss ant sand anchor and a few metres of shit rope can be supplied with a 6M boat and be all legal! what a joke the whole system is!

[White Pointer]

G'day,

Contrary to "Old Boot's" advice, you have the legal advantage.

Under the old Sale of Goods Act, goods had to be "fit for the purpose for which they are intended" but there was no requirement for a buyer to tell the seller what they intended. To overcome this, sellers offered warranties that simply limited the extent of the Sale of Goods Act, and we signed it as a condition of the contract. For example, if you bought a car to race, the warranty clause said, "you race, we disown you".

The Sale of Goods Act was State law and replaced by the (Commonwealth) Trade Practices Act in 1974. While lots of the old Acts were incorporated the onus was placed fairly on the seller to ask all the questions but also on the buyer to tell the truth and fully inform.

You have told the dealer that you want a boat equipped to take into "open waters". The term has a legal definition for boat licensing and for registration. Therefore you have done all that is required of you to ensure that the goods are fit for purpose and the dealer has failed to deliver those goods.

You win. Do as I suggested earlier.

PM me if you want a hand.

Regards,

White Pointer

[oldboot]

Ya might have some sucess putting the screws on the dealer...... but.....once you start down the formal legal line, it will cost you many many times the cost of the gear and you have a good chance of not winning.

Any way what was actually supplied with the boat?

And there is a big difference between cars and boats...in cars all the legally required safety gear are fixtures, and there is a legal requirement for all cars to have them.

The legally required safety gear on a private boat varies from state to state, boat to boat and situation to situation.

The lifejacket requirement alone is complication enough..... the boat is plated to carry 5, but that is only smooth waters and that assumes the person weighs 75KG, the law requires life jackets 1 for each aboard, correct for the situation and correctly fitted.

So it is nearly impossible for a boat dealer to supply a compliant set of lifejackets.
Ya cant give the same life jacket to a 45Kg skinny vegetarian girlfriend and to a 120Kg burger eating mate.

Then we look at the " mandatory safety gear" and that that may be implied under the "general safety obligation"

so...do they supply the correct drinking water containers, if so do they provide the water in them......and so on

Safety equipment is the responsibility of the skipper, not the owner, or the dealer or the manufacturer.........the skipper and the skipper alone....and he needs to know what safety gear he needs for that particular trip with those particular people on board.

personaly, I would rather the dealer did not supply any safety equipment with the purchase of a boat.

There are so many variations and complications, appart from "Open Water" having no legal meaning in QLD......good luck, with this one in court.

cheers

[Noelm]

I fully agree (up to a point) the auto industry is a lot different, but in a way, the same! it is a new registerable item that requires a license to operate it, the laws need to be uniform across the country, not made up in bits and pieces as you go, a boat should come with ANY equipment deemed mandatory (we are talking a new boat here) including an EPIRB if the boat is suitable to be used "outside" regardless of where the owner intends to use it (or tells the seller where it will be used) the sooner the laws are uniform the better, and written in a language suitable for a normal person,not a Barrister! and yes, if drinking water is part of the kit, then it goes in the boat at sale/rego time, what the owner chooses to do later is for the Maritime to decide if/when you get pulled up.

[Noelm]

OH, and while I am up here on my soapbox, trailer and towing laws need to be uniform across the whole Country, not variable for state to state, rego checks and all that sort of stuff needs to be the same, I think in QLD you only need a rego check (roadworthy) if you are selling the vehicle, is this the case? if so it is a sure way to keep marginal cars on the road, your boat should even be checked each year for defects and missing/broken/defective madatory safety gear!

[cormorant]

Interesting alll the boats at our club are given a annual safety gear inspection otherwise we aren't allowed to sail and be covered by insurance. We then place a safety sticker on the boat whick falls apart is removed and we don't get harassed by the police , waterways etc as they know at least we had the stuff. A lot of members of VMR etc could group together and do the same thing and save the hassle of being approached about safety gear all the time. All our equipment / stuff has to be marked with boat rego and dated so it isn't worth stealing or swapping to another boat. At any point teh club officials can ask to check safety gear to ensure compliance and make sure people aren't lightening their boats by taking it off.

No way do I want the inconvenience of a inspection by the authorities and subsequent cost. Held over a barrel like they do with the NSW pink slips by thieves acting as mechanics. They can go to the boat ramp any day and do inspections or on the water.

[oldboot]

As far as standardisation acroos the states, I can not agree more.

But as far as safety gear........

How do you define the capability of a boat?

There are a great deal of boats that are argualbly capable of going outside, that never will, in fact they may never go into water that requires flares, like half the boats that live south of redland bay..all those fancy boats down the coast..some of them never go further than the broadwater "smooth waters"

on the matter of drinking water......first you need to know how many people and the length of trip...completly unmanagable.

we do now have more or less uniform trailer regulations country wide, unlike in the recent past where they could not even agree on towing capaity of vehicles.


cheers

[oldboot]

Interesting alll the boats at our club are given a annual safety gear inspection otherwise we aren't allowed to sail and be covered by insurance. We then place a safety sticker on the boat whick falls apart is removed and we don't get harassed by the police , waterways etc as they know at least we had the stuff. A lot of members of VMR etc could group together and do the same thing and save the hassle of being approached about safety gear all the time. All our equipment / stuff has to be marked with boat rego and dated so it isn't worth stealing or swapping to another boat. At any point teh club officials can ask to check safety gear to ensure compliance and make sure people aren't lightening their boats by taking it off.

No way do I want the inconvenience of a inspection by the authorities and subsequent cost. Held over a barrel like they do with the NSW pink slips by thieves acting as mechanics. They can go to the boat ramp any day and do inspections or on the water.

Now in this situation the type, structure and usage of those saling boats will be pretty tightly defined by the competition rules
Those rules will be far better targeted and more strict than the government regulations so it is far more practical to specify standard safety equipment.

And like many situations.... the government regulations are the least of your problems...it is what the insurer specifies that will determine what you do..and that will always be stricter and the consequences greater than the government regs

cheers

[finga]

Biggest problem I can see is the "open water' bit.
Very vague and is very open to interpretation.
But if you stipulated beyond partially smooth then you'd have a leg.

Anybody got any concrete definition of "open water"??

[Marlin_Mike]

I dont see the drama here.

IMHO open water is that which is outside the partially smooth water limits. No brainer in my opinion. Clearly marked on the maps that are found here:

http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Waterways/Smooth-and-partially-smooth-water-limits/Swl-brisbane.aspx

Really isnt rocket science. Offshore is open water etc etc. My opinion only, no one else's.

Mike

[Mister]

I dont see the drama here.

IMHO open water is that which is outside the partially smooth water limits. No brainer in my opinion. Clearly marked on the maps that are found here:

http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Waterways/Smooth-and-partially-smooth-water-limits/Swl-brisbane.aspx

Really isnt rocket science. Offshore is open water etc etc. My opinion only, no one else's.

Mike

Nah outside the partially smooth water is coastal waters, beyond coastal waters is Offshore waters and really not all that many people have ever been offshore ;D true

[White Pointer]

Ya might have some sucess putting the screws on the dealer...... but.....once you start down the formal legal line, it will cost you many many times the cost of the gear and you have a good chance of not winning.

Any way what was actually supplied with the boat?

And there is a big difference between cars and boats...in cars all the legally required safety gear are fixtures, and there is a legal requirement for all cars to have them.

The legally required safety gear on a private boat varies from state to state, boat to boat and situation to situation.

The lifejacket requirement alone is complication enough..... the boat is plated to carry 5, but that is only smooth waters and that assumes the person weighs 75KG, the law requires life jackets 1 for each aboard, correct for the situation and correctly fitted.

So it is nearly impossible for a boat dealer to supply a compliant set of lifejackets.
Ya cant give the same life jacket to a 45Kg skinny vegetarian girlfriend and to a 120Kg burger eating mate.

Then we look at the " mandatory safety gear" and that that may be implied under the "general safety obligation"

so...do they supply the correct drinking water containers, if so do they provide the water in them......and so on

Safety equipment is the responsibility of the skipper, not the owner, or the dealer or the manufacturer.........the skipper and the skipper alone....and he needs to know what safety gear he needs for that particular trip with those particular people on board.

personaly, I would rather the dealer did not supply any safety equipment with the purchase of a boat.

There are so many variations and complications, appart from "Open Water" having no legal meaning in QLD......good luck, with this one in court.

cheers

G'day,

With respect, this is obfuscation. The boat licensing courses teach us what is safety equipment and then examines us on it. The same course teaches us about boat loading and that includes people and goods up the maximum allowable on the ABP.

If a dealer does not know this stuff he should not be in the business.

If the dealer doesn't put it right on reasonable terms you will not have to go to Court. MSQ and Fair Trading will probably do it for you.

If you haven't read it, read the inquest into the sinking of the Malu Sara. It is a 103 page litany of incompetence about what makes a boat safe. The way this discussion thread is going, it would seem nothing much has changed.

I hope this will change some industry and owner attitudes. These people's deaths must teach us something. Here's the link:

www.courts.qld.gov.au/MaluSara20080212.pdf (http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/MaluSara20080212.pdf)

Regards,

White Pointer

[lee8sec]

You are correct on the Qld rego inspection & you should see some of the trailers at the ramp carpark ::) Leigh


OH, and while I am up here on my soapbox, trailer and towing laws need to be uniform across the whole Country, not variable for state to state, rego checks and all that sort of stuff needs to be the same, I think in QLD you only need a rego check (roadworthy) if you are selling the vehicle, is this the case? if so it is a sure way to keep marginal cars on the road, your boat should even be checked each year for defects and missing/broken/defective madatory safety gear!

[lee8sec]

White pointer, what is the "legal definition" of open water, as MSQ dont use the term in there descriptions of waters in there licensing or safety requirements publications? Leigh

[lee8sec]

The location descriptors used for recording marine incidents in Queensland are defined below:

•

Inland waters – any navigable water that is not tidal, for example, non-tidal rivers, creeks,

lakes and dams
•


Smooth waters – any enclosed navigable tidal water other than waters defined by legislation as

partially smooth waters, for example, tidal creeks, rivers, estuaries, harbours and bays
•


Partially smooth waters – open stretches of water defined by legislation as partially smooth

waters where wave heights under normal conditions do not exceed 1.5 metres, for example,
open sections of Moreton and Hervey Bays
•


Offshore waters – those waters that are beyond smooth and partially smooth waters including
exposed coastal waters.

From MSQ incident reports, hence my question on "open waters". Leigh

[White Pointer]

White pointer, what is the "legal definition" of open water, as MSQ dont use the term in there descriptions of waters in there licensing or safety requirements publications? Leigh

G'day,

I just went looking for my copy of the boat licensing regulations and can't find them quickly. My recollection from when I got my license is that an EPIRB is required on a boat that will be used in "open waters".

I checked another reference, the Australian Standard for Small Boats - AS1799, and it has a definition of "open water" which is anything other than "smooth or partially smooth waters", which is defined, including wave heights.

In my earlier post tonight on this thread, including the reference to the "Malu Sara", the coronial inquest went to some trouble to define "open water" because the fitness of the boat and its safety equipment depended on this definition.

So there is plenty of evidence of a definition but we need to nail this down. Any VMR or Coastguard people watching who can enlighten us?

Regards,

White Pointer

[cgibbo308]

Apart from all the "people should do this or sell a boat with xyz" I think you should have done the norm and checked your state regs first, made a list and then handed that to the dealer.
To me that’s like driving in to a tyre shop and saying put new tires on my car then walking out, same goes with boat dealers I guess. Most people aren’t mind readers. They don’t know what you want so you must tell them. Ok, say you want one pfd.. what type or make do you want? Who is it for? Age of person wearing it? Are you going far enough off shore to legally require a marine radio or epirb? They don’t know all that unless you tell them. Mind you, the dealer should have asked you a lot of questions to figure out what you need. Having said that he could have sold you extra stuff.
What i would be interested in, is what he charged you and what did you get for just the safety gear.

[QF3 MROCP]

Here ya go troy

amazing to see that a marine radio is not considered a piece of safety gear on the msq list attached..

[Noelm]

Apart from all the "people should do this or sell a boat with xyz" I think you should have done the norm and checked your state regs first, made a list and then handed that to the dealer.
To me that’s like driving in to a tyre shop and saying put new tires on my car then walking out, same goes with boat dealers I guess. Most people aren’t mind readers. They don’t know what you want so you must tell them. Ok, say you want one pfd.. what type or make do you want? Who is it for? Age of person wearing it? Are you going far enough off shore to legally require a marine radio or epirb? They don’t know all that unless you tell them. Mind you, the dealer should have asked you a lot of questions to figure out what you need. Having said that he could have sold you extra stuff.
What i would be interested in, is what he charged you and what did you get for just the safety gear.
NO, It should not be up to the purchaser to say what gear he wants/needs, if the boat is plated for 5 people, then 5 approved life jackets go in it, if it is suitable for "offshore", then EPIRB and all the gear go in it, no use saying, "I only go out on my own" so I only need 1 PFD, it should be a mandatory list adhered to by the dealer/seller, no exceptions, I don't for one minute expect the system to be perfect, and I am sure there would be a few "fuzzy" areas, but it sure as sh!t would be better than we have now, regulations all over the place on towing, safety gear, rego checks, radios all sorts of stuff.

[oldboot]

So those life jackets......should they be suitable for a person under 40 kg, between 40 kg and 60Kg or over 60Kg.....see this is the problem.

Those cheap $15 life jackets....mostly they are labled 40 to 60 and 60 and over.......but the largest print on them states they "may not be suitable for all situations"

That boat plated for 5 x 75 Kg people.......well it will only be legal for 3 x 120Kg people and then only for smooth water......or it may carry 2 addults and up to 6 children under the weight and age appropriate.

What ever lifejackets are supplied, it is very likley that at some time they will not be compliant

marine safety equipment depends on the situation of use.

This would then create the situation where ya typical " doapy boatie" will say the safety equipment is the dealers responsibilty...and wrongly assume that the boat must be safe because it came with "all the safety equipment"

If it is a boat under survey, well that is a different situation...but that boat under survey will be specified for a particular use...... and they wont be using $15 life jackets..........I don't think any reacrational boatie wants to go to the considerable expense of the conditions of survey.

Even then.. a boat under survey..the safety equipment is the responsibilty of the owner and ultimately the skipper.

I think understanding the responsibilty for safety equipment on a boat is as important to the understanding of "collision avoidance".... lots of people still thik there is such a thing as "right of way" on the water

We all have to understand that the skipper of a boat has far greater responsibilties than the driver of a car, and the rules, regulations and principles of boating are very very different to those on land.

It is a long standing international principle that the skipper is responsible for ensuring the correct safety equipment is carried, or those aboard and for the situation.

As soo as you start, making other rules it takes away from that principle


In my opinion the regulations are perfectly adequate and perfectly clear about what should be carried and who is responsible.

The only fly in the ointment is standardisation across the states.

But even then in NSW they don't have a large barrier reef system and large enclosed esturies like moreton bay as a consequence the concept of "semi smooth water" or semi enclosed water is not considered.

It either enclosed or not...pretty well in the rver or in the open sea.

cheers

[cormorant]

I'd have to look it up but enclosed water , open water and smooth water limits apply in wording to hire craft in NSW as often the smooth water limits are different and exclude areas of strong current and areas affected by swells. NSW has some really dumb areas the open water limit starts on the inside edge of harbour headlands and police target the grounds just on the other side of that line for open water compliance. So if you are crossing the heads and angle out to give everyone a better ride and show some seamanship and cross the line you need to ensure you have all the open water safety gear.

Like so many dealers they misrepresent the boats capability and manufacturers keep caling their small boats offshore boats I wouldn't leave my bathtub in some.

If when buying the boat off a professional and you say you want to take 3 blokes fishing offshore and need the suitable boat and safety gear the professional dealer has a obligation to make sure the boat and gear are fit for purpose. . A professional dealer would ask questions not just slip unsatifactory gear or boat under someone and push em out the door. Yep the owner may cop a fine and hopefully no one gets hurt but a seller does have a responsibility not to mislead or misrepresent in regards to a product especially when is is aware lives are at risk. Owners / buyers need to do a bit of research as well but a dealer should not take advantage of a bunny .

[oldboot]

I know this has all been flogged... but I have just thaught what is at the centre off the matter.

Read the original post.......

Now with no personal attack intended.

The fundamental issues is that the skipper SHOULD KNOW, what the required safety equipment is....... Anybody taking a boat out on the water should be 100% comnversant with the regulations and should not be asking a dealer what safety equipment is required........they should be specifying it in detail.

So many times I have stood at the counter of a marine supplier and another customer has asked a question about safety equipment, and disturbigly got a less than correct answer.

Disturbing that the boat owner quite often long time owner, did not know their regs.... but even more so the shop staff was not much better.


If the government is to do any thing......it should be to publicise the regulations better and probaly make the process of getting a boating licence much harder.

On the matter of regulations, I recon you should have to pass an exam at the department of transport on regulations no less than 7 days after you pass your competency bassed traing course.

I have to play a game of 20 ( actually about 60) questions every time I want to renew my electrical licence... why not a boat licence.


The regulations are all in reasonably easy to understand books available free of charge to any that ask.

So if you are getting safety equipment included in a boat package, either you should be specifying the list in detail or the dealer should provide a detailed list and you the boat owner should know that is adequate for what you intend.

This goes well beyond buyer beware......this is skipper should know.

cheers

[PinHead]

I know this has all been flogged... but I have just thaught what is at the centre off the matter.

Read the original post.......

Now with no personal attack intended.

The fundamental issues is that the skipper SHOULD KNOW, what the required safety equipment is....... Anybody taking a boat out on the water should be 100% comnversant with the regulations and should not be asking a dealer what safety equipment is required........they should be specifying it in detail.

So many times I have stood at the counter of a marine supplier and another customer has asked a question about safety equipment, and disturbigly got a less than correct answer.

Disturbing that the boat owner quite often long time owner, did not know their regs.... but even more so the shop staff was not much better.


If the government is to do any thing......it should be to publicise the regulations better and probaly make the process of getting a boating licence much harder.

On the matter of regulations, I recon you should have to pass an exam at the department of transport on regulations no less than 7 days after you pass your competency bassed traing course.

I have to play a game of 20 ( actually about 60) questions every time I want to renew my electrical licence... why not a boat licence.


The regulations are all in reasonably easy to understand books available free of charge to any that ask.

So if you are getting safety equipment included in a boat package, either you should be specifying the list in detail or the dealer should provide a detailed list and you the boat owner should know that is adequate for what you intend.

This goes well beyond buyer beware......this is skipper should know.

cheers

do you reckon you know every regualtion there is? including Colregs?
do you reckon you know every regulation regarding driving?

I am damn sure I don't and never will.

I can buy a boat without any lighting etc on it..not the dealer's problem at all.

If you want something included in the deal then specify what you want.

What if a dealer supplied a boat with pfd 1 in the package and skipper decided to tow someone water skiing wearing that jacket. Is it the dealers fault when someone gets seriously injured wearing it? NOPE.

We have to stop being victims and make decisions for ourselves and if we stuff up then we stuff up. None of us are perfect.

[oldboot]

I may not know all the rules by heart, but it would not take me very long at all to find out.

I recon I know the regs both for on the water and on the road a hell of a lot better than most.....I have read both the marine and the road transoprt acts and regulations in their entirety at least once.

I always carry a copy of the boating & safety guide in the boat, and I have a copy of that and the small ships manual at home.

Quite a lot of the stuff you proably don't need to remember...... but at least you should know where the information is and to be able to check the book and make sure you have the correct gear on board

At least I remember the esential basics and know where i need flares and eperbs and such......so many people have not taken the time to read the baoting and safety guide thru even once.

I was at the counter of a boating shop one day......this bloke came in and had picked up a used tinny cheap......he had most of the basic gear...and wanted to buy flares, because he thaught he needed them to fish down the port.......at this point he had no manual propulsion.
the poor bloke was on the pension and was tight for cash.....the staff member wanted to sell him paddles because they were cheaper than oars.....he could almost stretch to the paddles and the flares.

his boat had provision for oars, so paddles would not comply and would have been useless to him on his own... but he could not afford the correct oars and the flares.

OH for goodness sakes....the bloke did not need the flares......he needed a set of proper oars to be compliant....its still smooth water untill you get out front.

My knoweledge may not be perfect.... but I can find the detail I need pretty fast.

This poor bloke did not have a copy of the guide...he did not even know it existed... nor did he know it was free......so how did he know anything about regs.

As far as safety gear......it is all laid out pretty clear in tables and with pictures..it aint hard.....the NSW book is pretty similar.


cheers

[PinHead]

well there ya go..I don't have a copy ofthat guide either.

Did ya buy the oars for the pensioner? You should have.

[White Pointer]

G'day,

Will this be the last post? I hope not. I hope that the member who started this comes back and says "all is well".

"Old boot" made the point that owner's and buyer's should be aware of regulations that affect thir boat and how they use it. I completely agree.

The observation was also made that a marine radio was not mandatory safety equipment. I also agree with this. When it all turns to %$&* you have to be able to tell someone easier and faster than activating an EPIRB.

But it is also essential that when a customer asks for safety gear to go into open waters (which can mean offshore or just Moreton Bay) the dealer asks the questions and the customer answers and the dealer provides a quote (possibly with options) and a deal is done. The customer gets what he wants and is happy and the dealer makes money (more money, possibly) and is very happy.

Why shouldn't dealers do what customers ask?

Regards,

White Pointer

[oldboot]

Ya know I nearly did buy that bloke some oars......... but ya also have to consider a blokes pride.....I think now If I'd had more time to think.....I woud have.

This time I butted out early in the situation and decided to mind my own business, the whole situation became so involved with the flares.....


If the salesman had known his stuff and put a copy of the guide in this blokes hand.........they have em in most boating shops......this bloke would have left with a pair of oars, pride in tact with a prospect of some happy fishing and no risk of a nasty surprise.

cheers

[troy]

G'day,

Will this be the last post? I hope not. I hope that the member who started this comes back and says "all is well".

"Old boot" made the point that owner's and buyer's should be aware of regulations that affect thir boat and how they use it. I completely agree.

The observation was also made that a marine radio was not mandatory safety equipment. I also agree with this. When it all turns to %$&* you have to be able to tell someone easier and faster than activating an EPIRB.

But it is also essential that when a customer asks for safety gear to go into open waters (which can mean offshore or just Moreton Bay) the dealer asks the questions and the customer answers and the dealer provides a quote (possibly with options) and a deal is done. The customer gets what he wants and is happy and the dealer makes money (more money, possibly) and is very happy.

Why shouldn't dealers do what customers ask?

Regards,

White Pointer
I stated at the start what i got and i did not take it any further as i knew i would not get any where.
as said i should have said what i wanted.
Troy

[finga]

I always carry a copy of the boating & safety guide in the boat, and I have a copy of that and the small ships manual at home.
Your better then me.
I'm flat out keeping my sausage sambos and SAO's dry in the boat let alone a book.
And I cannot really work out why you'd have the book in the boat. It's not as though you have a chance to read it when your bobbing on the water like a genie's bottle when something goes, or is going, or is looking wrong.
Basic rules should be your head and if in doubt stop.....na.
Basic rules should be in your head.

Thanks for the update Troy :)

[troy]

I know this has all been flogged... but I have just thaught what is at the centre off the matter.

Read the original post.......

Now with no personal attack intended.

The fundamental issues is that the skipper SHOULD KNOW, what the required safety equipment is....... Anybody taking a boat out on the water should be 100% comnversant with the regulations and should not be asking a dealer what safety equipment is required........they should be specifying it in detail.

So many times I have stood at the counter of a marine supplier and another customer has asked a question about safety equipment, and disturbigly got a less than correct answer.

Disturbing that the boat owner quite often long time owner, did not know their regs.... but even more so the shop staff was not much better.


If the government is to do any thing......it should be to publicise the regulations better and probaly make the process of getting a boating licence much harder.

On the matter of regulations, I recon you should have to pass an exam at the department of transport on regulations no less than 7 days after you pass your competency bassed traing course.

I have to play a game of 20 ( actually about 60) questions every time I want to renew my electrical licence... why not a boat licence.


The regulations are all in reasonably easy to understand books available free of charge to any that ask.

So if you are getting safety equipment included in a boat package, either you should be specifying the list in detail or the dealer should provide a detailed list and you the boat owner should know that is adequate for what you intend.

This goes well beyond buyer beware......this is skipper should know.

cheers
Okay i wanted not to comment any but i said to the dealer include open water saftey gear and we have a sale.
Now 4 life jackets plares 2 anchors and a hand held compass and a torch with no batteries no front of the torch and fire extingusier.
So what do you class as what i got.
Honestly would you be happy if this was you.
I could not even be bothered pushing this as i have more other issues with the boat.
As i said i should have asked what i was getting but what i got no one could say it was right.
Troy

[oldboot]

Yeh well that does sound like the safety gear package that many dealers would have included anyway..& I bet the jackets and the anchors were the cheapest available.



Your frankly poor experience is one thing.

The greater issue is another and far more serious.......As I have mentioned the lack of awareness and understanding on the part of the general public and the majority of the boating community of both their obligations and the ready availability of the information.

Combine with the very poor duty of care or any moral obligation on behalf of some dealers.

Victorian and NZ governments at least are sponsoring boating & fishing TV shows in return for uncluding safety editorial........the governments need to step up and move on past the life jacket issues with the "your the skipper" advertisments.

Then too as soon as "safety gear" becomes a barging chip, we have a problem straight away.

I am truly sad for your experience..... but the best we can hope is that others can learn from your experience.

cheers