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mustang5
25-08-2010, 05:43 PM
Ok so heres the story.


Just purchased a haines 1950R with a 1994 Yamaha 200hp with 300hrs on it.

Did everything right, had an outboard mechanic have a look right through it and check oil delivery, compression and everything. Everything checked out so I purchased the boat.

About half an hour into the test run, its sounds as though it has some cylinder problems and has siezed... Cruising at about 2500rpm it started to make a loud vibrating noise which could feel throughout the whole boat, and then ultimately stopped. A turn of the key just gives a click and no movement in the motor. Cannot turn it by hand or anything.

So, firstly, what is the course of action I can take to this mechanic?? Or the owner who sold it?? I am not too sure if it is there fault as everything myself and the mechanic checked, all checked out. So maybe this is just one of those things that has happened.

Secondly, is it worth replacing with a good second hand motor? Or just getting a rebuilt power head fitted?? (I would love to go new, but just purchased the boat to my ultimately stretched budget.. (im only 24)).

What are rebuilt powerheads worth?? And if anyone could point me in the direction as to where to find one that would be much appreciated.

Cheers in advance for the read.

Thanks. :o:o:o:o:o:o:o

Steeler
25-08-2010, 05:53 PM
Sorry to hear that mustang5

Firstly what has caused it to seize ie lack of oil or water entry that will be worth looking into although i am think if you purchased private and agreed with the mech on his condition report then probably not much recourse.

If you are mechanically minded why not grab a manual and re-build yourself,i know it seems daunting but depending on your location and the good help available on here you just may find that a great learning experience and much more economical.

Happened to me with my first donk on the first trip and i was very fortunate that one of my customers used to rebuild outboards and now i rather enjoy having a tinker.

Steeler

mustang5
25-08-2010, 05:58 PM
I am very mechanically minded, have rebuilt car engines and worked with yamahas(nothing internal (carbies, impellers etc..). Just a matter of sourcing the parts, rebuild kit etc.

Yeah well thats what I was thinking. Might just have to suck it up. Think of the fact I have still got a great deal motorless, maybe this is why.

Steeler
25-08-2010, 06:04 PM
The best thing about doing your own motor is the learning as you go and in the end everything being done properly your good to go for many hours.

boatsnet in the states are a good source for parts so worth once completely stripped make a summary list of the parts required and ship in one go.

Good luck with it and keep us posted eh.

Steeler

peterbo3
25-08-2010, 07:31 PM
G'Day Mustang,
That is not good. However, 16 year old engines can grenade for no apparent reason.
http://www.boatmotors.com/motorparts/index.cgi?flag=1&engine_type=outboard&year=1994&state=tx&part=101&manufacturer=8&hp=200&submit=Search&disp2=&cyl=
The link will take you to an iboats site which sells reman Yammy powerheads. You are looking at US$3K plus. Shipping & GST etc will be on top of that. Only you can decide if your powerhead is worth a rebuild.

-spiro-
25-08-2010, 09:34 PM
mate same thing happend to me when i bought my boat and motor. I paid $9000 to get it fixed needless to say the other half wasn't happy. Ran well for the last 5 years though.

Jarrah Jack
25-08-2010, 09:41 PM
Feel for you on that one. The higher horsepower motors are easier to come across secondhand and although very unlikely there is nothing to stop the same thing happening again. If you do up the yami you know what your're getting as far as the power head is concerned. Was it a high hour motor? Were all the comps good..signs of corrosion etc?

Only you can decide the best avenue. the're a good boat, how long do you intend to keep it? new motors of that size are not cheap. Resale value is also a consideration. If you do the motor up keep all documentation and photos of the process to show any buyer down the track.

I lost my first motor on its first trip. It went overboard but the insurance covered it.

mustang5
25-08-2010, 11:04 PM
320 hours its got. Corrosion is minimal really. Great looking condition and motor.

Water was shooting out at a great rate, and also had it on the muffs earlier and it idled great.

Plenty of oil in both resevoirs. Fresh Fuel. Just dont know what would have caused it. Was not even giving it any strain.

Steeler
25-08-2010, 11:26 PM
More a case of what you can't see regarding corrosion particularly around the heads or covers.

If it were i, i would start stripping it down and identify if it was water ingress or an oil injection failure also i am not familiar with that vintage Yami but do they have an overheat alarm an was it functioning. Perhaps you have picked up a bag around the water intake.

Like has been stated,is it worth re-building and my take on that is if its only your time and labour to strip it down and determine cause then you have nothing to lose and go from there at the very least you will have a heap of spares like electrics and power t/trim to re-sell to add to the funds for another motor.

Steeler

FNQCairns
26-08-2010, 05:49 AM
Owners kill 2 strokes, they never decoke, happily run overpropped, blast off from cold, run cheap TCW3, use old fuel.....in short their engine gets whipped every day it's used.

Not saying you had the time to accomplish the above yet but it does sound like you might have experienced the result.

Try pulling each and every plug and investigate the electrode for stuck melted aluminium or signs of impact to give yourself a little more information.

I am not up on that engine but strange thing happen for instance magnets can break away and to to the uninitiated seem like a powerhead blowup.

The good news is the engine was producing low HP at the time of the problem....this can bear well when it is stripped down and looking for the full extent of the damage and therefore the cost to rebuild.

Interested to hear what you find from the plugs.

captain rednut
26-08-2010, 07:28 AM
hi
sorry to hear about your experience buying a boat and naturally we want to hang someone when it all turns to mud, however i feel the mechanic may have found the engine to be resonable in his opinion at the time of inspection and after all hes only there to point out the obvious as mechanical inspections are VISUAL & NON INTRUSIVE, Did he state to you that that paticular model suffers internal corrosion issues and premature piston failure due to overpropping?? i would demand the ex owner put all his documented service history on the table and ask him has it been sunk in its previous history that hes aware of and has he used different props?? There will be a obvious cause ?? maybe you should track down a proven yamaha specialist and get a second opinion. good luck i hope you find an affordable solution.
cheers cr

Fed
26-08-2010, 09:17 AM
Can you move the flywheel in either direction by hand?

The chances of this detonating in the first half hour of owning it, mate you would have to be the unluckiest man alive.

Noelm
26-08-2010, 09:43 AM
I think you need to do some simple investigating first, no use worrying about rebuilds and all sorts of possibilities before you really know whats wrong, simple non invasive surgery is needed first, remove the plugs, are they all the same? can you move the flywheel by hand? is the prop still spinning free in neutral? easy no cost procedures, then look deeper once you have the easy answers. Could be the stator has come loose under the flywheel and jammed it, who knows?

Vitamin Sea
26-08-2010, 10:30 AM
If you have not done so already, pulling out the spark plugs will probably tell you a great deal. A similar thing happened to me, not good.

Good luck

VS

cormorant
26-08-2010, 10:35 AM
Any chance it is a seized gearbox? Check it will go in and out of gear and prop will spin??
Drop teh box down and off incase itis a stuffed shaft. A 10 minute job and do it before pulling powerhead down at all. That and as suggested plugs and see what moves .


As other have said - can only hope it isn't a complete failure.

I know I am anal but always have a water test run in a boat or at a local dealers / mechanics test tank to see motors running under load.

Lucky it wan't a old ficht or etec or this thread would have every expert telling you your problem:o:D

Noelm
26-08-2010, 11:37 AM
haha, how true is that cormorant! and it would have been 8 pages long by now too.

whiteman
26-08-2010, 01:51 PM
Owners kill 2 strokes, they never decoke, happily run overpropped, blast off from cold, run cheap TCW3, use old fuel.....in short their engine gets whipped every day it's used.

Are you trying to tell me something FNQ?

wrxhoon
26-08-2010, 02:06 PM
If she is seized, like cormorent said make sure the box is not seized first, my guess is she picked up a piston due to either overheating ( piston grows and picks up on the bore , you keep driving until she seizes) or oil starvation.
I know you say she spitting water out , maybe not enough? maybe you picked up plastic bag , blocked the pick up ? Plastic fell when you stopped and lifted the motor? Corrosion on the cylinder head and blocked with salt and alloy ?? Overheat and or oil alarm disconnected because the owner knew of the problem??? On your gauge oil light should be green always , if yellow or red it means something wrong and alarm should sound.
She probably wouldn't overheat at low rpm and no load so you would't tell.

Take all the plugs off and look for signs of water or a cylinder with water in it .

Another common problem if she hasn't started for a long time ( a year or so) the oil could have drained from the check valves in the hoses that go to the carbs , in this case you have to bleed the system otherwise it may not bleed itself in time .. You can check this by taking off the little hoses that go to the carbs and see if they are full of oil. Don't just look at them from the outside because the oil has stained the inside and looks like its full.
If they look ok , take the cyl head off and look for corrosion , that may very well stop any thoughts of rebuilding ??? If she looks good and you haven't found the problem , you will have to take the powerhead off and strip it .

If worked on car engines, 2 strokers are very simple , nothing to them , easy as to rebuilt but parts are not cheap, bearings are very expensive .
If she overheated or lack of oil bearings will beed to be changed ( all rollers) and cranc checked .
Get a workshop manual on line and start working ...

FNQCairns
26-08-2010, 03:31 PM
Are you trying to tell me something FNQ?

Possibly Whiteman:-?, how about on gods good grace go you;D

Tabs
26-08-2010, 09:35 PM
I seized a gearbox on my old 140 Johno. had the same symptom as you describe.
Like Cormorent said, pull the bottom leg off and see if it turns. Might get a recon box for $1000. Cheaper than doing the top end!

mustang5
27-08-2010, 12:26 AM
Thanks heaps for the replies guys. First thing I checked with mechanic was the alarms, and I just re checked earlier. When trying to turn it over with key it will move about an inch but then pop back after release of starter motor pressure.

so what would tell me gearbox? Goes into gear and prop still spins in neutral.

Just trying to think back to when it happened, maybe more elaboration may help symtoms. I was cruising along at about 2500rpm when the whole boat shuttered. My initial response was to go back to neutral thinking I have hit something. So did that and when putting power back on a noise started getting louder and motor surging. Then the noise started coming on and off so I shut it off which n the end was the last work it would be doing.

With regards to oil feed, mechanic said it was all sweet and when on the muffs there was plenty of smoke coming out.

I dunno. Sad really. Thanks all

mustang5
27-08-2010, 12:37 AM
I have had to fly off for workforce the week but am having a mechanic look at it on Monday. Will definately share it's fate. Previous owner has hit the ignore button on me so it just gets a bit Sussex when they go into hiding when all I'm asking for is info.

Jabba_
27-08-2010, 05:50 AM
Any chance it is a seized gearbox? Check it will go in and out of gear and prop will spin??
Drop teh box down and off incase itis a stuffed shaft. A 10 minute job and do it before pulling powerhead down at all. That and as suggested plugs and see what moves .


As other have said - can only hope it isn't a complete failure.

I know I am anal but always have a water test run in a boat or at a local dealers / mechanics test tank to see motors running under load.

Lucky it wan't a old ficht or etec or this thread would have every expert telling you your problem:o:D
I think the previous owner painted his E-tec grey and put Yamaha stickers on it...

cormorant
27-08-2010, 10:29 AM
I think the previous owner painted his E-tec grey and put Yamaha stickers on it...


Very good!!!!!!1;D;D So that means there won't be corrosion or clogged galleries and the motor has a strong bottom end!



Are you sure the starter motor is dissengaging? Did you find any damage on the prop?

Start narrowing it down , drop the box , pull the plugs ( look at em) and see what rattles when you turn it over by hand. I would not be trying to turn it over with the starter till you know what is free.

Put a scope down each of the cylinders before you start pulling it apart.

Could be quite a few things but sounds like you may have hole in piston, sucked a reed through? Get a scope in each pot to check and when looking at the plugs check that the center hasn't broken out of one. Seen it happen when people do compression tests and then overtighten plugs or have dropped them.

Moonlighter
27-08-2010, 10:53 AM
First, check your insurance policy

A REAL CHANCE YOU PICKED UP A PLASTIC BAG AND OVERHEATED, ISN'T THERE??

If that's the case your insurance policy may well cover the cost. Check the policy, then get a decent mechanic to check the engine and provide a report. If his diagnosis is overheating cause by plastic bag etc, then a claim might be in order.

So check the insurance policy before doing too much dis-assembly work!

Cheers

ML

tunaticer
27-08-2010, 03:12 PM
Rather than dropping the box first up, remove the drain plug for the box, if there is metal right there it will give the the bad news right up front.

Second thing would be remove the plugs and borescope it for scoring pitting or holing.

If it is seized in the block it will have no freeplay, tells me that the gearbox is most likely the culprit. The inch or so movement on the flywheel will be the tortion applied to the gearbox shaft.

ozscott
27-08-2010, 03:35 PM
First, check your insurance policy

A REAL CHANCE YOU PICKED UP A PLASTIC BAG AND OVERHEATED, ISN'T THERE??

If that's the case your insurance policy may well cover the cost. Check the policy, then get a decent mechanic to check the engine and provide a report. If his diagnosis is overheating cause by plastic bag etc, then a claim might be in order.

So check the insurance policy before doing too much dis-assembly work!

Cheers

ML

Worth checking as you say mate - some policies specifically exclude placcy bags and similar

mustang5
27-08-2010, 09:17 PM
Ok, so I have a mechanic going around home tomorrow to suss it out. He says pretty much on par with some of the advise in this thread :)

He mentioned about the 1 inch of play with the flywheel leading him to believe that the problem is "down the line" rather than the powerhead. Mentioned something about drive shaft bearings and so forth.

He also mentioned he finds it hard to believe that its a power head issue given the audible alarms (Which I can assure you were working) did not sound.

But anyways, enough guess work, will let you all know tomorrow what the verdict is :)

mustang5
29-09-2010, 09:31 AM
Sorry to revive an older thread, been away for a month..

Con rod 2 punched a hole into the block and destroyed 2 pistons.

Oil delivery from one of the injection hoses was the culprit.

Full rebuild and was on the water yesterday evening. The mechanic also gave me a smaller pitch prop to run it in with. (went from 21pitch laser SS prop to 17 pitch alloy).

All went well other than only getting 5500rpm at WOT, with the 17 pitch... Can remember the 21 pitch getting around that range also?????

But Happy none the less that the boat is back in the water.

Steeler
29-09-2010, 09:55 AM
Glad to hear all is good with the powerhead now and your back on the water.

Thanks for the update

Steeler

ozscott
29-09-2010, 10:02 AM
Good to hear mate. Yamaha oil injection is about the best around in terms of reliability. Just make sure you change the inline filter and use the best oil you can get your hands on. A failed oil injection on a Yam is very uncommon but blockage suggests sludge from lack of use or bad oil. If you dont get out, start it up and run it for 15 mins every 3-4 weeks on the muffs or even better a tank.

Cheers

FNQCairns
29-09-2010, 10:17 AM
Sorry to revive an older thread, been away for a month..

Con rod 2 punched a hole into the block and destroyed 2 pistons.

Oil delivery from one of the injection hoses was the culprit.

Full rebuild and was on the water yesterday evening. The mechanic also gave me a smaller pitch prop to run it in with. (went from 21pitch laser SS prop to 17 pitch alloy).

All went well other than only getting 5500rpm at WOT, with the 17 pitch... Can remember the 21 pitch getting around that range also?????

But Happy none the less that the boat is back in the water.

Dunno that engine from outside of the basic manufacturers recommendations (outside by the way is where the long service life will most often be found).

but unless the 21 was of a very low diameter/surface area or the 17 is the converse it would be hard to believe the max PRM would be the same.

Just be sure you prop at all times to or above the max recommended RPM with a full load...this is a rule of thumb that has not and cannot change while aluminium 2 stroke pistons of any type run in steel bores with any surface coating.

If you are inclined to answer what was the total cost back onto the water?

Darn shame you experienced this episode, it has to happen one will simply be unlucky to experience it as you did.

The total life reliability of oil injection strikes again:'(

mustang5
30-09-2010, 12:34 AM
Well I havent told the full story as id like to move on and forget, but just as a vent here goes.

1. Buy boat, after mechanic looking at it, it lasts 10 minutes in the water.
2. Get full Rebuild ($3800), then get it back with the oil not automatically transferring.
3. Pull my hair out and finally find the problem being the trim sensor. Auto oil transfer repaired.
4. Get it into the water to find it would not engage reverse. Back out to discover the shift rod is about 1mm thick at the opening in the mid section. Power head off again, replace, and in the water.
5. Told by mechanic that 21p prop will not run in the motor too well given load and so forth. So buy a 17p prop same diameter.

So it has been quite a harrowing experience, now on the last week of a month off and only have used the boat for 2 hrs. Now the weather gods really prevent anything this weekend.

I think a grand total of about $5500 back in the water is about on par. Now I know I will just be cringing for all my trips waiting for something to go bang, or a very high pitched buzzer to join my journeys. Something I wanted to get rid of but thinking back to all those yamahas I neglected, somehow they never ever gave me a problem... Such is life.

Another thing to note about the props is the 21p was a mercury laser SS, and was getting about 5200 roughly before rebuild.

Now the 17p is same diameter and gets about 5500 fully trimmed out.

Might check the leg height though, just seems a tad bit low.

PADDLES
30-09-2010, 08:26 AM
mate, you've definitely done the right thing by getting the motor rebuilt, buying another second hand one would have been probably more money than you paid for the rebuild and you could have just bought more problems. $5500 is not too bad really to get you what is essentially a fresh motor and hopefully trouble free boating for a while. double check what rpm your motor is supposed to be getting at wot, it's possibly only 4500 to 5500 for the big jigger v6 in which case your last prop might have been ok.

Jarrah Jack
30-09-2010, 11:44 AM
Mustang5........Did you get some money from the previous owner?

mustang5
30-09-2010, 02:14 PM
$1000 he coughed up mate. Better than nothing I suppose, plus he seemed genuine. I think its just bad luck I suppose.

As I said before I have been lucky with my past three boats with Yamahas, even had one sink on moreton island. Refloated it, cleaned the bowls and spark plugs out, zip tied the terminals back to a new battery and drove it home without a hickup. Had it for 4 months later and sold it to new owner who was there when it sank.

I had a 115 V4 on the last boat and that was an absolute work horse. WOT all the way from bramble bay to Cape Moreton with not one hickup.

First boat had a 90HP on it, and that would take a fully loaded boat with camping gear through trecherous conditions in the bay in a 5m boat without any hickups.

I have learned to love the yammies so I suppose one of them has to give me some grief. At least I know if I fix all the issues I come across I will soon have a near new motor.

Cheers