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gunna
21-07-2010, 04:55 PM
Heard a couple reports recently of Water Police booking people if their stern (all round white light) is not 1 metre above the highest point of the boat. My 4.55M is a runabout which means I have to raise it 1M above the height of the windscreen. I would prefer to keep it at the stern when I do so. Anyone else done this yet? Just wondering what options/accessories are available.

Cheers

Gon Fishun
21-07-2010, 05:15 PM
BCF sell extandable LED anchor lights. about $60+ . Look at my post Haines V16c.
There is a pic of one.

bluefin59
21-07-2010, 05:16 PM
My stern or anchor light is a meter above the screen on my console and apparently doesnt conform so i have built one on a 3 meter pole that i can attach to my side console with an allround white light that i can plug into my lighter socket ,i believe it has to be higher than someone standing on my front casting deck and my mate is 6f 3in i also believe it has to be as close to the centre of the boat as possible . Please correct me if i am wrong but it all seems a bit confusing now considering i got away with an alround anchor light for the last 15 yrs ...matt

Gon Fishun
21-07-2010, 05:22 PM
http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/imarine/19196.asp
Have a look at this . It might help.

Seahorse
21-07-2010, 05:35 PM
1 Metre Above Nav Lights, That Is What Nugget Said On His Programme On Weekend

Bowser
21-07-2010, 05:40 PM
They are supposed to be 1 metre above the navigation lights and clearly visible from all around the boat. So if you standing driving the boat the light needs to be over your head height.

finga
21-07-2010, 05:44 PM
I'm staying out of this one :)
But do a search for anchor or all round white light here

tunaticer
21-07-2010, 06:30 PM
From everything I have read it must be above all things else in the boat so its beam is visible from a full 360 degrees.

mirage
21-07-2010, 07:29 PM
I wish I had a dollar, coming back into Mooloolaba, for every tinny that either didn't have any 360 light or had a low one in the corner of their transom that you couldn't see except from behind.
It drives me nuts. One night we nearly hit one except I saw him light a smoke!!
So good on the Water Police if they are enforcing common sense.

Fishbait
21-07-2010, 07:32 PM
Alot really depends on the size of your boat but the following 2 links may help for further info:

Maritime Safety Queensland - Page 47 and 48 - Navigation Lights - http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/~/media/msqfiles/home/publications/pdf_rec_guide_2009_2010_part9.pdf

and;

National Marine Safety Committee -
By law, navigation lights and their installation on recreational boats are required to comply with the positioning and technical requirements of an international agreement, commonly known as the COLREGS.

An all-round white light shows over a nominal arc of the horizon of 360į. The light fitting must be located at least one metre above the sidelights; and should as far as practicable, be on the centreline of the boat.
Further info - http://www.nmsc.gov.au/recreational_boating/index.php?MID=78&CID=75

Fishbait
21-07-2010, 07:34 PM
Sorry - double post.

gunna
21-07-2010, 08:07 PM
My stern or anchor light is a meter above the screen on my console and apparently doesnt conform so i have built one on a 3 meter pole that i can attach to my side console with an allround white light that i can plug into my lighter socket ,i believe it has to be higher than someone standing on my front casting deck and my mate is 6f 3in i also believe it has to be as close to the centre of the boat as possible . Please correct me if i am wrong but it all seems a bit confusing now considering i got away with an alround anchor light for the last 15 yrs ...matt

That sounds the go Matt. I will visit Whitworths and see what I need.

marto78
21-07-2010, 08:29 PM
You can do what I did and just buy a cheap 30cm one from bcf and ditch the pole and replace it with a bit of stainless bath towel rail available at all good hardware stores then its just a matter of extending the leads and a couple of pop rivets and bobs your mothers brother.;D

TheRealAndy
21-07-2010, 10:36 PM
I'm staying out of this one :)
But do a search for anchor or all round white light here

Lol, finga, got your skirt on?

I know these rules really well!

1m above your nav lights, must be visible from 360 degrees.

bluefin59
22-07-2010, 04:34 AM
Lol, finga, got your skirt on?

I know these rules really well!

1m above your nav lights, must be visible from 360 degrees.

I do believe this is wrong, it won't conform with the rules it must be above the tallest thing or person so you get an uninterupted 360 degree white light. I made mine up out of a small light with a swivel bracket and then got a 3 my length of 19 mm ally tube and then resided it with tinned duel core cable and put an online fuse . It an be taken of in a minute and all that is left is my swivel bracket on the side console ...
Matt

PinHead
22-07-2010, 04:51 AM
this was supplied with my new tinny.

MyEscape
22-07-2010, 05:39 AM
Pinhead,

I supose in your case the all round light is higher than your canopy. So you will need a fairly high mast on the light just to exceed the height of thr canopy.

My issue is where it is stated in the regs where the light should be as close to the centreline as possible. In most open tinnys I think the only place is on the rear decks, perhaps behind the operator. Well, at least that where mine is going.

Steve

PinHead
22-07-2010, 05:43 AM
mine is higher than the bimini and is as near as possible to the centre of the boat..perfectly legal as far as I am concerned.

TheRealAndy
22-07-2010, 06:53 AM
I do believe this is wrong, it won't conform with the rules it must be above the tallest thing or person so you get an uninterupted 360 degree white light. I made mine up out of a small light with a swivel bracket and then got a 3 my length of 19 mm ally tube and then resided it with tinned duel core cable and put an online fuse . It an be taken of in a minute and all that is left is my swivel bracket on the side console ...
Matt


REad it again, I said visble from 360 degrees. This is what the rules say:

"All-round light" means a light showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 360 degrees.

deckie
22-07-2010, 07:24 AM
Good to see the water police cracking down on it.

Overdue big time.

What still blows me away is some nongs still think u dont need the white light on when going along. Maybe coz its called an "anchor" light. Probably why they prefer to call it an 'all round white light".

Too many close calls with idiots that dont think it matters...or want to get around the new rules which are basically SIMPLE with enough flexibility. They arnt even "new" rules anymore.

Just get the light about a metre above the navs and make sure it has an uninterrupted view for 360deg. If u want to get pedantic about it or pretend its all too confusing or difficult then just make sure you;re safely tucked up in bed before it gets dark. Seriously...as bad as drunk drivers on the road.

Lancair
22-07-2010, 07:33 AM
I think the problem lies in dealers selling boats that wont be legal with regard to lighting. My new boat isnt legal, the short assed white light pole they provide on the rear corner wont be visible 360 by a long shot.

Lancair

bennykenny
22-07-2010, 07:34 AM
and just remember to turn your nav lights off when you are at anchor!!!!

deckie
22-07-2010, 08:01 AM
I think the problem lies in dealers selling boats that wont be legal with regard to lighting. My new boat isnt legal, the short assed white light pole they provide on the rear corner wont be visible 360 by a long shot.

Lancair
If they have sold you something illegal take it back.

I'm quite sure there are specific rules under the trade practices act regarding anything like this. You simply cannot sell anything illegal..especially when its a safety item.

Its like trying to sell non compliant child safety seats.

If its been awhile tho i guess they wont want to know you.

Most i see DO comply.

When buying a boat look for where the light is...if they want to call it an "option" and doesnt comply then tell them to do it again or you want your money back.

finga
22-07-2010, 08:37 AM
Lol, finga, got your skirt on?

Yep. More important things to do like finish the Touchy rod.
And all the mathematics from the last time hurt my head. :-?

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Babies/baby-girl-28.gif

stue2
22-07-2010, 09:05 AM
Went to the boat show in melbourne a couple of years ago and there was a lot of smaller boats had the light in the back corner in the way where a rod holder should go. i asked one dealer about this and he said it was right. and yet the boat owner is the one that pays the penalties:-?

purnong
22-07-2010, 09:12 AM
This is where I put mine, I just unplug it for daytime use
It extends out to 1.2 metres and would be legal unless someone stands on the front casting deck, Once I get a bimini I will have to rethink it though

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk52/purnong_2008/Picture029.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk52/purnong_2008/Picture033.jpg

MyEscape
22-07-2010, 11:43 AM
Purnong,

Doesn't your allround light interfere with your vision?
Steve

robersl
22-07-2010, 12:08 PM
Purnong,

Doesn't your allround light interfere with your vision?

Steve
it certainly wood how could not see infront of the boat to see other boats while going along

MyEscape
22-07-2010, 01:07 PM
Unless it's not used whilst underway?

Are the rules different is SA?

Steve

Jabiru658
22-07-2010, 01:33 PM
Doesn't your allround light interfere with your vision?

The position of that light is exactly the one shown in the picture on the front of the booklet (a tinny) used when studying for the boat license test in Victoria.

There are authorities out there who are suggesting that location.

I find myself wondering how long those 2 metre thin aluminium light poles would last on a tinny before bending or breaking. Mine is 1 metre tall and it flexes badly when traveling in a bit of chop.

purnong
22-07-2010, 01:49 PM
To be honest I haven't tried it at night yet but "Apparently" these led lights put the light out in a flat plane, so once it is fully extended it shouldn't be too bad
It's just too bloody cold here to be out in a tinny at night this time of year so I will wait until summer to try it out properly
I don't generally night fish anyway but wanted lights on in case I stayed out longer than I intended to
If it does turn out to be no good I will just use it as the anchor light and try and source another deck plug so I can put it down the back whilst underway

bluefin59
22-07-2010, 03:09 PM
REad it again, I said visble from 360 degrees. This is what the rules say:

"All-round light" means a light showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 360 degrees.



Your not reading what i typed mate ,it has to be above the tallest item in the boat whether it be a canopy or person not above the gunnel,the nav lights or cosole but above EVERYTHING i believe and if i am wrong fine but give us all a link that gives a clear understanding that wont get me or anyone else a fine ....matt;D ;D

TheRealAndy
22-07-2010, 03:15 PM
Your not reading what i typed mate ,it has to be above the tallest item in the boat whether it be a canopy or person not above the gunnel,the nav lights or cosole but above EVERYTHING i believe and if i am wrong fine but give us all a link that gives a clear understanding that wont get me or anyone else a fine ....matt;D ;D

not disagreeing with you, as the law states, unbroken over 360 degrees, this means your head cant break it, or anything else for that matter.

MyEscape
22-07-2010, 03:35 PM
Actually I'd find it difficult to manage in an open tinny for the light to be higher than a person standing.

I've got an allround light that I need to install. It will be higher than my head when sitting, and at least 1 metre higher than my navigation lights, but to have it much higher would make it a bit unstable.

Steve

ssab1
22-07-2010, 03:43 PM
1 Metre Above Nav Lights, That Is What Nugget Said On His Programme On Weekend

PUT SIMPLY THAT IS NOT THE ONLY REQUIREMENT (misleading)

1 Must be visible allround (360degrees) give or take 6degree ,this includes standing when at anchor or underpower

2 Must be as close as possible to the centre line and at least 1 metre above red and green ( this is where the 1 metre comes in ) the white must be visible alround at all times at night anchored or running

3 White light must not interfere with the operators vision at night (that is it cannot shine in his/her eyes) that why it must be mounted at a height of around 2metres to comply with the regs. you can use 2 white lights to get 360 degree visibility.

This topic has been around for a while is is confusing (dont worry MSQ was vague when I rang them for clarification..and why new boats were being sold with non complying lights. I also told them that their guide lines for marine lights was crapp

brisbane_boy
22-07-2010, 03:47 PM
I do believe this is wrong, it won't conform with the rules it must be above the tallest thing or person so you get an uninterupted 360 degree white light. I made mine up out of a small light with a swivel bracket and then got a 3 my length of 19 mm ally tube and then resided it with tinned duel core cable and put an online fuse . It an be taken of in a minute and all that is left is my swivel bracket on the side console ...
Matt


danners the jew king has been fined for having the allround light 1m above the nav lights, his head is the highest point in the boat at around 6ft and the light MUST be above this accord to the fine writers, and it is now

MyEscape
22-07-2010, 03:50 PM
How about I just sit low in the boat and promise not to stand!

Bazzawookooka
22-07-2010, 03:56 PM
Hello everyone,

I'm not trying to be controversial here, but there is also the option of a 'mast-head' light in conjunction with a stern light.

This allows white light to be cast 135 degrees at the stern and the balance (225 if my maths are ok) by the mast-head light.

This should alleviate the problem of having white light in the skipper's eyes, as well as the issue of 'breaking the beam' when standing.

Of course, then there's the question as to whether the stern light must also be 1m above the other nav (green and red) lights.

My stern light, surprisingly, is fixed to the stern!!!, just the way it is in the attached diagram.

If anyone has an answer on this I would certainly appreciate it.

Cheers,

Steve A

tunaticer
22-07-2010, 06:35 PM
The problem with this thread are there is multiple states laws involved that do not concur. In Qld it simply states unbroken 360 degrees, meaning above anything that could break the beam. Other states refer to the 1m rule regardless of a broken beam.

Blusta
22-07-2010, 06:47 PM
I reckon a very high percentage of recreational boats would be illegal. Reflecting on this subject I would need to put a light on a pole on my canopy frame as a disconnect any time I fish at night which I do most of the time for the peace and quiet. I am curious whether many people use a spotlight when travelling at speed; am referring mostly to rivers as I imagine it might be a pain in the butt bouncing over chop.

TheRealAndy
22-07-2010, 07:16 PM
The problem with this thread are there is multiple states laws involved that do not concur. In Qld it simply states unbroken 360 degrees, meaning above anything that could break the beam. Other states refer to the 1m rule regardless of a broken beam.


Actually the laws are uniform across all states. They are legislated by the commonwealth as well as most states as far as I am aware. So even if a given state does not have a specific act the adopts the IMO laws, the commonwealth does.

Hornet Rider
22-07-2010, 07:22 PM
and just remember to turn your nav lights off when you are at anchor!!!!

benny, that's what the regs say, but why not leave them on?

Hornet Rider
22-07-2010, 07:26 PM
I think the problem lies in dealers selling boats that wont be legal with regard to lighting. My new boat isnt legal, the short assed white light pole they provide on the rear corner wont be visible 360 by a long shot.

Lancair


Isn't the correct display of light an 'operating' regulation, not a boat manufacture or selling regulation? Is there any State or C'wealth reg that governs manufacture or sale of vessels used recreationally?

ahamay
22-07-2010, 07:33 PM
Just a word of caution with those led extendable lights with the black collar that pushes in. If you have them fully extended and you hit some rough water or chop they sway at the top and the collar will work loose and the whole thing wall fall out.

TheRealAndy
22-07-2010, 07:57 PM
benny, that's what the regs say, but why not leave them on?


If you running lights are on, we know you are underway. If you only have an anchor light on, we know you are anchored.

Also, whey the running lights are on we have the ablility to determine what direction you are traveling in relation to us by the colours we can see..

PinHead
22-07-2010, 08:02 PM
Actually I'd find it difficult to manage in an open tinny for the light to be higher than a person standing.

I've got an allround light that I need to install. It will be higher than my head when sitting, and at least 1 metre higher than my navigation lights, but to have it much higher would make it a bit unstable.

Steve

mine is higher than the bimini which is over my head..and no problems at all with it up when underway.

Marlin_Mike
22-07-2010, 08:18 PM
**********

purnong
22-07-2010, 08:30 PM
**********

Interesting observation mate, Will certainly keep it in mind ;D

Moonlighter
22-07-2010, 08:58 PM
Hi guys

I am in the process of investigating this very issue to write up for a magazine article and recently met at a boat yard in Bris along with a senior MSQ officer who knows this stuff inside out.

What we discovered is that we have a problem here caused by the fact that the nav light regulations reflect the requirements of the international shipping rules referred to as the COLREGS.

The COLREGS were designed for ships - big ones! So we find ourselves trying to comply with regs that were not designed with small open tinnies and runabouts in mind.

Many good points have been made in the earlier posts, but I will recap the requirements and share a few of the MSQ guy's thoughts:

1. a white allround light or combination masthead/stern light is required.

2. It must be on when you are underway and anchored.

3. It must be min 1 m above the red/green nav lights. It does NOT have to be 1 m above any other structure eg canopy, rocket launchers, console etc - but must be 1 m min above the nav lights and be vis 360 deg (less no more than 6 deg).

4. It must not be obstructed from view by more than 6deg. ie if you were standing on the foredeck casting and the white allround was mounted at the stern of an open centre console etc, it would be unlikely that you would obstruct it by that much, or that the law would bother you anyway. Unless you are over 5 ft wide, of course....

And then they would have to prove that the obstruction was more than 6 deg, wouldn't they! Get out the protractors!

5. It must not disrupt the skippers's night vision. For that reason the earlier post with the white allround mounted in the centre of the foredeck on the open tiller steer tinny woud be a real problem that would concern the enforcement guys. It would be OK as a 360 deg anchor light, but not underway.

6. It should be mounted as close to the centre line as practicable. Note these words: should be as close to the centreline as is practicable!!

The general view of the MSQ person I talked to at length about this was that a quite acceptable solution in an open tinny/centre console and even runabout type boats is an extendable light on a removable pole, mounted in one of the rear corners of the boat, or just to the side of the outboard motor. This way it will be behind the skipper even if its a tiller steer. With a suitable length pole, getting it 1m above the nav lights should not be a problem.

MSQ quite happy to accept that a rear corner at the transom is the most "practicable" location and are not concerned about it not being mounted centreline in such circumstances. The reality is that there are very few other places in such boats to mount this white allround that would comply with the other mandatory components of the rules.

There is now a 1.6m extrendable LED white allround plug-in type light available from most chandleries that will suit this application fine. BLA have them ontheir website if you cant find them anywwhere else.

There is another issue MSQ and other state authorities are equally concerned about, and that is the need for red/green nav lights to be set parrallel to the centreline. If they are mounted on bowrails or plate, then they must not end up "cross-eyed".

They must also be mounted so the light shines sideways away from the boat, not vertically into the air.

I was quite surprised when the MSQ guy said they regularly book people who have mounted lights which are designed to be mounted on vertical surfaces on the deck or side decks!

This can be an issue on many boats whether cabin, runabouts or tinnies. It can be solved by better placement in the first place, or by putting wedges under the fitting so they end up parallel to the centreline and do not cross over. Or you can mount a combination red/green light centre of the cabin ahead of the windscreen.

Watch out for the upcoming article in Aust Fisherman & Boatowner mag, complete with informative pics! (excuse the plug please mods - this is a safety issue!)

Hope this helps.

Cheers

ML

TheRealAndy
22-07-2010, 09:17 PM
ML, can you confirm point 5 with legislation? Whilst I understand this is common sense I am not sure its legislated.

Also, I am sure I read somewhere recently that the 72 COLREGS are currently undergoing a review? Not sure where I read it, or perhaps I dreamt it (yeah, sad hey).

Hornet Rider
22-07-2010, 09:23 PM
If you running lights are on, we know you are underway. If you only have an anchor light on, we know you are anchored.

Also, whey the running lights are on we have the ablility to determine what direction you are traveling in relation to us by the colours we can see..

Andy,

yep, yep got all that, thanks - tends to coincide with my understand of events too but have you ever seen how many lights those tanker or container ships have on when at anchor waiting to enter port? I always leave every light possible on at night or in poor vis at anchor or on the move - way too many numb nuts out there at night for me to trust them to see just white lights. I know all the purists will start throwing snapper heads at me on here for being a bad boy for leaving nav lights on at anchor, but more lights reduces the risk of not being seen - this thread is almost as good as the Etec v 4 stroke threads ::)

Sea-Dog
22-07-2010, 09:27 PM
An extract from COLREGS: - Just to clarify things ::)

http://www.bosunsmate.org/seamanship/rulesoftheroad.php



Rule 23

Power-driven Vessels Underway
(a)A power-driven vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i) a masthead light forward;
(ii) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one;except that a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;
(iii) sidelights: and
(iv) a sternlight.(b) An air-cushion vessel when operating in nondisplacement mode shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light.
(c)
(i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights.
(ii) a power-driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights.
(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may be displaced from the fore and aft centerline of the vessel if centerline fitting is not practicable, provided the sidelights are combined in one lantern which shall be carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel or located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the masthead light or all-round white light.To me this is saying that the only way to comply with COLREGS if your all around white light is not on the centre line of your vessel, is to have a combined red/green lantern either on the vessel's centre line, or on the same line as the all around white light.





Rule 30

Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:
(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;
(ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the light prescribed in subparagraph (i), an all-round white light.(b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.


Annex 1 of COLREGS

2(d)A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may carry the uppermost light at a height of less than 2.5 meters above the gunwale. When however a masthead light is carried in addition to sidelights and a sternlight, then such masthead light or all-round light shall be carried at least 1 meter higher than the sidelights.

9(b) All-round lights shall be so located as not to be obscured by masts, topmasts or structures within angular sectors of more than 6 degrees, except anchor lights prescribed in Rule 30, which need not be placed at an impracticable height above the hull.

So there you go - I hope that cleared everything up and nobody is confused anymore ;)

oldboot
22-07-2010, 11:10 PM
As far as where these regs apply......they remain pretty well consistent world wide and in principle unaltered for over a century.

Apart from some concessions to small boat owners such as us.

As far as being confusing.....well not realy....( OK just a bit)...ya just have to read the regulations step by step....( and be sure certain what certain words mean)...they are pretty specific

There is one important thing that must be understood.....you must display an "all round white light" at anchor.

So regardless of other arrangements or other lights....that is what you must have..an...all round..white light.

So you need to have one that is compliant....no matter what, ya have to fix your all round white up

Display of a masthead light facing forward and a stern light facing backward....is an indication of a vessel underway and should not be displayed at anchor.

As far as large vessels, lit up like a christmas tree.......they are specificaly required to light up there decks at specific times.......you are permitted to do this to.

As for this off center all round white....yes indeed..it does seem that to displace the all round white off center you should be combining green and red in one lantern......are they going to enforce this........hmmm

I recon they would be real happy if we could all simply project a correct pattern of lights as seen.

I have said this as many others have too........I am just amazed that the vast majority of boats don't even go close to complying.....and the manufacturers and sellers seem to be happy to offer them this way.
I am also disapointed that the government has not put out some sort of education/ advertising on this matter.....even a press release.

We probaly have had it far to easy on these matters for too long, I am sooo not surprised that there has been a blitz on this........realy....expect more of the same.

As far as those niggly details....I'm trying my best to be 100% compliant........but I dont recon they are going to look at small technicalities.... but they will be looking for boats that don't show a proper display of red & green and an all round light that is at least 1 meter above them showing an uninterupted all round white light....none of which interfeers with the vision of the skipper.

Now.....I saw on an ABC show the other night a boat up the tores straight that had its all round white screwed to a stood up lump of timber bolted to a seat.
If these guys can manage compliance with their lack of education and resources.....surely we can.


cheers

Marlin_Mike
23-07-2010, 08:27 AM
Andy,

yep, yep got all that, thanks - tends to coincide with my understand of events too but have you ever seen how many lights those tanker or container ships have on when at anchor waiting to enter port? I always leave every light possible on at night or in poor vis at anchor or on the move - way too many numb nuts out there at night for me to trust them to see just white lights. I know all the purists will start throwing snapper heads at me on here for being a bad boy for leaving nav lights on at anchor, but more lights reduces the risk of not being seen - this thread is almost as good as the Etec v 4 stroke threads ::)


Those tanker/container ships have regs that apply to their size/type vessels. As do our smaller boats. As for leaving your nav lights on at anchor............... well I wont even comment on that. ::) :o ::)

Mike

bushbeachboy
23-07-2010, 09:46 AM
I would like to see somebody enforcing against the morons that run around without any lights at all. I can't count the number of times I've nearly hit some fool anchored across a creek up here without any lights showing at all, and when you get close they start frantically waving a feeble torch or ciggy lighter around. It's just as bad when they are underway without lights, and up here (around Townsville) it's everywhere. I'd assume it's similar in other places????

MyEscape
23-07-2010, 12:12 PM
Pinhead,

I know what you mean using a bimini, however I don't have one so I would either need to have a very long light pole, or stay on my knees if the Police turn up!

Steve

PinHead
23-07-2010, 04:51 PM
Pinhead,

I know what you mean using a bimini, however I don't have one so I would either need to have a very long light pole, or stay on my knees if the Police turn up!

Steve

if you have a look at the pic it is on a long pole and is taller than me when i am standing

oldboot
23-07-2010, 05:26 PM
On the matter of leaving red and green on while at anchor..........yeh it is against the law.......it indicates you are underway.......if you are drifting however they should be lit.......its bad enough figuring out what is going on at night on the water withour cofusing the matter.

this is nothing like an Etec V 4 stroke thread...because there is no law against Etec's .

If you want to be seen there is absolutly no problem lighting up your decks or displaying more white light.....as long as those white lights cant be confused with something that means anything specific......like the masthead and stern light.

OH.... just for some who have not grasped it yet...a masthed light is not an all round white light..they are different things.

If everybody would do more or less what is prescribed, it would be a lot easier.

so we are out on the water at night.....taking it easy as we should.....in the distance we see a boat a low red and a higher white.....we should be able to know that that boat is underway and we should give way to it......as it passes off to our port quarter, we no longer see the red light.....we know we can safely pass to his stern.

now if we saw the same boat stop some distance off our bow....with the wind on our starboard.......the red changes to a green without his moving far....and then the green goes out.

Guess what......he has just anchored up........and we should give him a wide berth to our staboard.......to stay clear of his anchor rope.

likewise.....if you see a white light ahead and a red or green comes on.....it is likely thay are upping anchor.

cheers

gunna
23-07-2010, 06:10 PM
Hi guys

3. It must be min 1 m above the red/green nav lights. It does NOT have to be 1 m above any other structure eg canopy, rocket launchers, console etc - but must be 1 m min above the nav lights and be vis 360 deg (less no more than 6 deg).

4. It must not be obstructed from view by more than 6deg. ie if you were standing on the foredeck casting and the white allround was mounted at the stern of an open centre console etc, it would be unlikely that you would obstruct it by that much, or that the law would bother you anyway. Unless you are over 5 ft wide, of course....

And then they would have to prove that the obstruction was more than 6 deg, wouldn't they! Get out the protractors!

ML

Thanks fot that ML. That all sounds logical. Anecdotal advice to me is that someone was recently booked as it was not 1M above the highest point in the boat. Seems Inspectors might have different interpretations.

Moonlighter
23-07-2010, 06:19 PM
Hi Andy

Haven't had time to look at the regs themselves tonight, but this is an extract from the "official" MSQ/NMSC brochure re the issue of lights affecting vision:


"Lights affecting the operatorís vision


Navigation lights must be installed to prevent the lights from shining into the operatorís eyes. For open boats, this can be achieved by using a shielded light on a mast or pole. This could also be achieved by placing the light support behind the operator and above head height, rather than in the bow or amidships. Some LED lights are less prone to affecting night vision than conventional incandescent lights."

I think that's pretty clear.

Cheers

ML

PinHead
23-07-2010, 06:36 PM
the reality is: stick a bloody white light up in the air so you can be seen..simple as that..sniping over pedantics is ridiculous.
Hell..is my light illegal? I don't have a white wire running to it as per the wiring code..and guess what? I don't give a rats.
I bet you could pick apart nearly every boat on some stupid law that is hidden somewhere.

oldboot
23-07-2010, 06:39 PM
Thanks fot that ML. That all sounds logical. Anecdotal advice to me is that someone was recently booked as it was not 1M above the highest point in the boat. Seems Inspectors might have different interpretations.

Um..yeh.... realy no room for interpritation.

cheers

ssab1
23-07-2010, 09:23 PM
Hi guys

I am in the process of investigating this very issue to write up for a magazine article and recently met at a boat yard in Bris along with a senior MSQ officer who knows this stuff inside out.

What we discovered is that we have a problem here caused by the fact that the nav light regulations reflect the requirements of the international shipping rules referred to as the COLREGS.

The COLREGS were designed for ships - big ones! So we find ourselves trying to comply with regs that were not designed with small open tinnies and runabouts in mind.

Many good points have been made in the earlier posts, but I will recap the requirements and share a few of the MSQ guy's thoughts:

1. a white allround light or combination masthead/stern light is required.

2. It must be on when you are underway and anchored.

3. It must be min 1 m above the red/green nav lights. It does NOT have to be 1 m above any other structure eg canopy, rocket launchers, console etc - but must be 1 m min above the nav lights and be vis 360 deg (less no more than 6 deg).

4. It must not be obstructed from view by more than 6deg. ie if you were standing on the foredeck casting and the white allround was mounted at the stern of an open centre console etc, it would be unlikely that you would obstruct it by that much, or that the law would bother you anyway. Unless you are over 5 ft wide, of course....

And then they would have to prove that the obstruction was more than 6 deg, wouldn't they! Get out the protractors!

5. It must not disrupt the skippers's night vision. For that reason the earlier post with the white allround mounted in the centre of the foredeck on the open tiller steer tinny woud be a real problem that would concern the enforcement guys. It would be OK as a 360 deg anchor light, but not underway.

6. It should be mounted as close to the centre line as practicable. Note these words: should be as close to the centreline as is practicable!!

The general view of the MSQ person I talked to at length about this was that a quite acceptable solution in an open tinny/centre console and even runabout type boats is an extendable light on a removable pole, mounted in one of the rear corners of the boat, or just to the side of the outboard motor. This way it will be behind the skipper even if its a tiller steer. With a suitable length pole, getting it 1m above the nav lights should not be a problem.

MSQ quite happy to accept that a rear corner at the transom is the most "practicable" location and are not concerned about it not being mounted centreline in such circumstances. The reality is that there are very few other places in such boats to mount this white allround that would comply with the other mandatory components of the rules.

There is now a 1.6m extrendable LED white allround plug-in type light available from most chandleries that will suit this application fine. BLA have them ontheir website if you cant find them anywwhere else.

There is another issue MSQ and other state authorities are equally concerned about, and that is the need for red/green nav lights to be set parrallel to the centreline. If they are mounted on bowrails or plate, then they must not end up "cross-eyed".

They must also be mounted so the light shines sideways away from the boat, not vertically into the air.

I was quite surprised when the MSQ guy said they regularly book people who have mounted lights which are designed to be mounted on vertical surfaces on the deck or side decks!

This can be an issue on many boats whether cabin, runabouts or tinnies. It can be solved by better placement in the first place, or by putting wedges under the fitting so they end up parallel to the centreline and do not cross over. Or you can mount a combination red/green light centre of the cabin ahead of the windscreen.

Watch out for the upcoming article in Aust Fisherman & Boatowner mag, complete with informative pics! (excuse the plug please mods - this is a safety issue!)

Hope this helps.

Cheers

ML
Dont think MSQ is issueing the fines, tell the coppers that are inforcing their interperation of the regs. cheers alex. Ps I spoke to MSQ ages ago they were no help at all

finga
24-07-2010, 07:01 AM
the reality is: stick a bloody white light up in the air so you can be seen..simple as that..sniping over pedantics is ridiculous.
Hell..is my light illegal? I don't have a white wire running to it as per the wiring code..and guess what? I don't give a rats.
I bet you could pick apart nearly every boat on some stupid law that is hidden somewhere.
http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-047.gif

And Andy wondering why I'm staying out of this round??
Looks like Pinhead has taken my spot. Goodo http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Happy/happy-thumb-up-045.gif

I have actually found a picture of a rescue boat that's in Australia that has an illegal all round white light.
I have pictures of boats at the boat show with illegal lights.
I reckon I could find something wrong with lights in 98% of boats in Australia.
What code are the lights in your boat wired too??
Don't know?? Illegal.
If you have a centre consul...where are the nav. lights??
On the side of the consul I hear you say...illegal. Blocked by some yobbo standing and holding onto the consul.

Do what the book in your area says. If you get pulled up say...well it's in the book isn't it??
For those who say well it isn't the dealer problem if you've brought a boat with nav lights and they're wrong. Bulldust. You've paid for nav. lights, you should get them. Anything else is a white and a red and a green light put on the boat.
For the person who said about a body getting in the way of the all round would not make it illegal...do the mathematics. I did last time. You need a head of max. 300m wide and be at least 4.5m from the light to block out less then 6 degrees.
For that aggravation any reasonable person would just go up another 400mm and be done.

Pinhead has the right idea.
Get them on, so they can be seen, and working and know which light to use and when.

I know the lights on my boats are illegal.
The tiny tinny has the nav. lights below the gunwale.
The Berty has the wrong angles on the nav. lights because of the cabin shape. It's only a few degrees but it's a few degrees.
Am I going to fix it?? Nope.
Why??
Hard to get permanent nav. lights above the gunnel on a car topper that don't get in the way of putting to boat on a car top and, on the big boat, it's just not worth the hassle nor are there wedges available for a 3 degree variation.


I have a question for the pedentics if I may.
What happens if yo have red lights as deck lights in your boat and your at anchor and turn the light on to rig up??
What about the green lights from my radio??
What if you smoke?? The red glow from a cigarette.

Sorry Andy. I took the skirt off. :-?

oldboot
24-07-2010, 09:33 AM
Ahh now here is an interesting question......if you were fishing alone in a small open boat....

would strapping an otherwise compliant all round white light to the top of you head ( like the red flashing light helmet I had as a kid) be legal???;D

cheers

finga
24-07-2010, 12:35 PM
Ahh now here is an interesting question......if you were fishing alone in a small open boat....

would strapping an otherwise compliant all round white light to the top of you head ( like the red flashing light helmet I had as a kid) be legal???;D

cheers
NO.
I had not been approved for use as such and lights are designed to be used on a horizontal plane which your head isn't if you bend over.
And it would also depend upon how tall you are as it would always need to be 1m above the nav lights which it wouldn't be every time you bent over to get another prawn for bait.
So there... :)

Hornet Rider
24-07-2010, 12:48 PM
Those tanker/container ships have regs that apply to their size/type vessels. As do our smaller boats. As for leaving your nav lights on at anchor............... well I wont even comment on that. ::) :o ::)

Mike

Mike, please, hook in, comment away, I leave them on all the time at night, anchored, drifting or underway, it's called risk management, also have the red deck courtsey lights on, 95% of people wouldn't know the difference & I've yet to get any complaint on the radio or from someone shouting abuse at me. Now when I complete my skipper grade 5 ticket & I'm pushing one of those tankers about, I'll make sure I turn the nav lights off at anchor.

cheers, HR

Member101
24-07-2010, 01:45 PM
Just a little bit of inside knowledge, the all round white light on small craft may not be required sometime soon.

Speaking to a few Water Police at the local ramp this morning, they informed me that my, quote, 'all round white light was not set to regulation, however, dont race out and modify it because we are trying to have it so they are no longer needed on small craft because of the way it affects peoples night vision.' unquote.

Cheers
Steve

brisbane_boy
24-07-2010, 02:08 PM
I hope they want to pay the fines untill the legislation changes!

pretty silly comment to make imo

PinHead
24-07-2010, 02:32 PM
Mike, please, hook in, comment away, I leave them on all the time at night, anchored, drifting or underway, it's called risk management, also have the red deck courtsey lights on, 95% of people wouldn't know the difference & I've yet to get any complaint on the radio or from someone shouting abuse at me. Now when I complete my skipper grade 5 ticket & I'm pushing one of those tankers about, I'll make sure I turn the nav lights off at anchor.

cheers, HR

it isn't risk management when someone else is trying to navigate another boat and believes you are also moving as you have your nav lights on..sure makes it difficult at times to work out what is going on. I don;t shout abuse at anyone..no point..I just shake my head and wonder at what goes through their mind.

skipper grade 5 + tanker?...citycat perhaps

finga
24-07-2010, 03:34 PM
Just a little bit of inside knowledge, the all round white light on small craft may not be required sometime soon.

Speaking to a few Water Police at the local ramp this morning, they informed me that my, quote, 'all round white light was not set to regulation, however, dont race out and modify it because we are trying to have it so they are no longer needed on small craft because of the way it affects peoples night vision.' unquote.

Cheers
Steve
Don't hold your breathe.
They are international based rules/regulations from COLREGS.
QLD Water Police have no say in the matter what so ever.

Hornet Rider
24-07-2010, 08:20 PM
[quote=PinHead;1189938]it isn't risk management when someone else is trying to navigate another boat and believes you are also moving as you have your nav lights on..sure makes it difficult at times to work out what is going on. I don;t shout abuse at anyone..no point..I just shake my head and wonder at what goes through their mind.

skipper grade 5 + tanker?...citycat perhaps[/quo

Pin, great theory but not an issue in reality, keep shaking your head if it helps to ease the pain

tunaticer
24-07-2010, 09:37 PM
Has anybody thought about mounting the LED all round white light on the top of their radio aerial? Should give sufficient height and LED's maqy or may not interfere with reception?? Worth investigating i suppose, the fibreglass will withstand the hammering for certain.

TheRealAndy
24-07-2010, 09:38 PM
Don't hold your breathe.
They are international based rules/regulations from COLREGS.
QLD Water Police have no say in the matter what so ever.

I heard somewhere recently that they are looking into a new revision of the colregs. Not sure if there is any substance in that though.

oldboot
24-07-2010, 09:42 PM
[quote=PinHead;1189938]it isn't risk management when someone else is trying to navigate another boat and believes you are also moving as you have your nav lights on..sure makes it difficult at times to work out what is going on. I don;t shout abuse at anyone..no point..I just shake my head and wonder at what goes through their mind.

skipper grade 5 + tanker?...citycat perhaps[/quo

Pin, great theory but not an issue in reality, keep shaking your head if it helps to ease the pain


So we have regulations agreed by all nations and seagoing practice that has been proven effective for over a hundred years.....and you recon you know better.

don't come whining here when the decide to have a blitz on that one too.

This whole all round white issue has come to the fore because huge numbers of boaties thaught thay knew better concerning all round whites...and the coppers Booked a hundred or so in a short time in a small area.

The coppers and the government now have proof that there is a wide spread willfull ignorance of boating regulations concerning light......they should have very little problem askig for budjet to undertake a blitz on any similar manner.

cheers

oldboot
24-07-2010, 10:27 PM
Has anybody thought about mounting the LED all round white light on the top of their radio aerial? Should give sufficient height and LED's maqy or may not interfere with reception?? Worth investigating i suppose, the fibreglass will withstand the hammering for certain.

running wires up your radio aerial will bugger up its performance pretty bad.

BUT

using a marine areial base and a pretty stiff fishing rod blank ( or a buggered aerial) to support an all round white is a very reasonable idea.


remember you can display anything as an allround white as long as it performs to spec.

cheers

Hornet Rider
24-07-2010, 10:58 PM
So we have regulations agreed by all nations and seagoing practice that has been proven effective for over a hundred years.....and you recon you know better.

don't come whining here when the decide to have a blitz on that one too.

This whole all round white issue has come to the fore because huge numbers of boaties thaught thay knew better concerning all round whites...and the coppers Booked a hundred or so in a short time in a small area.

The coppers and the government now have proof that there is a wide spread willfull ignorance of boating regulations concerning light......they should have very little problem askig for budjet to undertake a blitz on any similar manner.

cheers[/quote]

boot, that willfull ignorance stuff will do it to you every time, thanks for this cogent advice, much appreciated::)

PinHead
24-07-2010, 11:05 PM
[quote=PinHead;1189938]it isn't risk management when someone else is trying to navigate another boat and believes you are also moving as you have your nav lights on..sure makes it difficult at times to work out what is going on. I don;t shout abuse at anyone..no point..I just shake my head and wonder at what goes through their mind.

skipper grade 5 + tanker?...citycat perhaps[/quo

Pin, great theory but not an issue in reality, keep shaking your head if it helps to ease the pain

no pain...I just marvel at what some people do..I get it..I will just shine the spot light straight at every boat with nav lights on so I can see if they are anchored or underway..simple solution from my point.

PinHead
24-07-2010, 11:07 PM
deleted post

Hornet Rider
24-07-2010, 11:09 PM
[quote=Hornet Rider;1190027]

no pain...I just marvel at what some people do..I get it..I will just shine the spot light straight at every boat with nav lights on so I can see if they are anchored or underway..simple solution from my point.


brilliant idea pin, can't wait to hear your report on how the spot lighting goes, shoud be an illuminating read

PinHead
24-07-2010, 11:16 PM
if you are stupid enough to sit at anchor with nav lights on then I am stupid enough to shine a spot light on you.

Hornet Rider
24-07-2010, 11:27 PM
if you are stupid enough to sit at anchor with nav lights on then I am stupid enough to shine a spot light on you.

feel better now you've got that off your chest?

deckie
24-07-2010, 11:42 PM
If you have troubles with the anch light shining down and reflecting off the boat disrupting night vision...do this.
Take a bit of stiff cardboard (beer carton is good) and scissors out to the boat at night, with a hole in the middle of the cardboard the thickness of your anch light pole and a slice in the cardboard so u can fit it on the pole. Switch the light on and tape the cardboard just under your light and gradually cut it smaller and to a suitable shape until the smallest shape that stops light shining down onto the boat.
Make up something permanent that exact shape out of thin ally or stainless and use a hole saw to cut the correct diameter and cut in half down the axis of the hole...fit both pieces together around the pole under the light with a bit of epoxy. Or if u can get the pole off just a hole and slide it up the pole. Needs to be horizontal and a cpl of inches down from the light so it doesnt interrupt the all round lighting when seen away from all angles.
Makes a big difference to your vision...you could buy these once but no idea who sells them these days.

finga
25-07-2010, 06:52 AM
I heard somewhere recently that they are looking into a new revision of the colregs. Not sure if there is any substance in that though.
Ta Andy.
I'll worry about it when it comes on the news-stand at the paper-shop.
Until then...it's all hearsay as Judge Judy would say :)

Sea-Dog
25-07-2010, 08:49 AM
More from COLREGS:

Rule 22
Visibility of Lights

The lights prescribed in these Rules shall have an intensity as specified in Section 8 of Annex I to these Regulations so as to be visible at the following minimum ranges:


(c) In vessels of less than 12 meters in length:

* a masthead light, 2 miles;
* a sidelight, 1 miles;
* a towing light, 2 miles;
* a white red, green or yellow all-around light, 2 miles.

So your sidelights don't need to be as intense as your all-around white light.
----------------------------------------------


ANNEX I
Position and Technical Details of Lights and Shapes

2. Vertical Positioning and Spacing of Lights

(d)A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may carry the uppermost light at a height of less than 2.5 meters above the gunwale. When however a masthead light is carried in addition to sidelights and a sternlight, then such masthead light or all-round light shall be carried at least 1 meter higher than the sidelights.

9. Horizontal sectors

(b) All-round lights shall be so located as not to be obscured by masts, topmasts or structures within angular sectors of more than 6 degrees, except anchor lights prescribed in Rule 30, which need not be placed at an impracticable height above the hull.

When you look at the combination of rules 2(d), 9(b) and 30(b) I interpret that to say that as long as your all-around white light is at least 1 Metre higher than your sidelights - it can be partially obscured by structures etc. if it would be impractical to go higher. You are still complying with regulations. You may just need to establish to the satisfaction of the judge, the impracticality of making the light higher.

Anyone who has been booked for all-around white being obscured if it was at least 1M above sidelights may be able to have the fine reversed.
---------------------------------------------

10. Vertical sectors

(a) The vertical sectors of electric lights as fitted, with the exception of sailing vessels underway shall ensure that:


* (i) at least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angle from 5 degrees above to 5 degees below the horizontal;
* (ii) at least 60 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained from 7.5 degrees above to 7.5 degrees below the horizontal.

If you want to use some sort of screen below your all-around white light to stop it iterfering with vision - you need to make sure that the light is still visible within the angles listed above.

---------------------------------------------

Rule 30
Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

* (i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;
* (ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the light prescribed in subparagraph (i), an all-round white light.

(b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.

Jeremy
25-07-2010, 11:47 AM
if you are stupid enough to sit at anchor with nav lights on then I am stupid enough to shine a spot light on you.

That's what I do. Enough candle power to burn the retinas out of the eyes of anyone in boats without anchor lights on. I really like the idea of using it to check whether a boat with red and green nav lights on is anchored or not also.

HR, you have long since lost the logic of your arguement and you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself. Don't stop tho, it is very entertaining.

gunna
25-07-2010, 12:18 PM
Just came back from BCF. They have sold out of the extendable light. Seems the word is getting round.

oldboot
25-07-2010, 06:34 PM
Now... remember your all round white on anything under 12 meters should be clearly visable at least 2 miles ( that is nearly 3 Km) away in good weather.

This is a lot brighter than the tail lights on a car.

this means if you are comming out of Many boat harbour.....you should clearly see an all round light of a vessel comming between Green and St Helena.

Many of the older style 2nm compliant all round white lights use a 10 watt incandesant lamp........if you are concerned about being seen.....there is nothing to stop you using a brighter light.....a car tail light is typicaly 5 watts.....the brake light is typicaly 21 watts.....so if you went for a light using a 21 watt globe...you would considerably increase your visabilty.

Of course these days the led stuff is the go......even the standard 2nm compliant stuff is brighter in led and the old incandessant stuff and they draw diddly squat.........so going for a brighter LED all round white is a realistic thing.

Now consider that these regs are agreed and in force in almost evry contry on earth with water, and the basic application has remained un changed for over 100 years........there has to be a very good reason......I don't think there would be a single set of other regulations that could claim this sort of providence.

I recon the reason is that is simple enough and it works.



cheers

Hornet Rider
25-07-2010, 07:14 PM
That's what I do. Enough candle power to burn the retinas out of the eyes of anyone in boats without anchor lights on. I really like the idea of using it to check whether a boat with red and green nav lights on is anchored or not also.

HR, you have long since lost the logic of your arguement and you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself. Don't stop tho, it is very entertaining.

Another expert with a sharp tongue, good on you Jeremy. What an inspiring, responsible person you must be ...'enough candle power to burn the retinas out of the eyes of anyone in boats without anchor lights on'... is that boats with women & little children in them or do you shine your big light on boats with adult males on board? How about you & all the other sharp tongued marine experts ease off the personal attacks ... comment on technical advice or personal opinion, personal experience is good.

oldboot
25-07-2010, 07:40 PM
UM.... I haven't seen any personal attacks in this thread....just reasonable responses to someone espousing a plainly illegal practice of leaving red & green on when not under way.

OH BTW.......shining relay bright lights at other vessels.....such that it effects their vision.......may bet you fined too............not real responsible either.


cheers