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View Full Version : Yammy 115 V4 - Hydraulic tilt stuck in up position...



ozscott
29-06-2010, 10:11 PM
Hi all. My 93 performed really nicely today, but alas after tilting up for trailering going home she would not tilt back down onto the bracket stop...tried going back up, nothing. Noticed a little weeping oil from the seal at the top of the tilt tube. I tried using the manual bleed screw in the side of the tilt bracket but even with that open it will not drop back down even with force....I have looked in the manual and it has not troubleshooting for this problem...any ideas greatly appreciated.

Also, what is the best method of servicing the seals in the trim and tilt hydraulics...or is it more cost effective to replace the trim and tilt units with a good second hand or new one...

Cheers

ozscott
29-06-2010, 10:22 PM
Its a bit late for me tonight, but tomorrow I will check the fluid level in the Trim and Tilt and see if it needs some...still seems odd that the relief valve does not let it fall down...

ozscott
29-06-2010, 10:31 PM
The steering is nice and free so I dont reckon its that...I wonder if I have hydraulic lock up of sorts....I am enjoying talking to myself hence the multiple posts....anyway someone with far more experience than me will read this at some point I am hoping.

Cheers all

PS. The trim rams are working....just not the tilt

Spaniard_King
30-06-2010, 07:25 AM
Scott,

if you managed to trim it all the way up it's most likely not going to be a fluid level issue.

how far did you undo the manual release valve?? sometinmes they need to be undone a fair way to get it to drop..lean on it as well and yes I have had this issue with a few engines before hand usually undoing the manual valve all the way does the trick.

Seal servicing is not uncommon on trim units, age does seem to make the job harder tho :)

ozscott
30-06-2010, 08:50 AM
Scott,

if you managed to trim it all the way up it's most likely not going to be a fluid level issue.

how far did you undo the manual release valve?? sometinmes they need to be undone a fair way to get it to drop..lean on it as well and yes I have had this issue with a few engines before hand usually undoing the manual valve all the way does the trick.

Seal servicing is not uncommon on trim units, age does seem to make the job harder tho :)

Thanks Gary - I undid it so far it bottomed out....about 6-8 turns from memory.

Cheers and thanks

FNQCairns
30-06-2010, 08:56 AM
Uh Oh! I am with gary on the screw,did you get the right one?? I only know my old yamaha unit I rebuilt a few years ago which i think is basically the same as yours.

If all fails then pull it out (easy to deal with on a bench).....here is where that new 4stroke starts to look appealing and if you can resist the that urge look toward boats.net for parts...will most probably bring it back to new, also good for the other motor parts you might trash getting the b%$#d out.

good luck!

ozscott
30-06-2010, 09:06 AM
Gday FNQ - mate I cant justify that 4 stroke just yet....the screw is the one that is inside the motor bracket on the starboard side of the boat. It has an arrow for turning it anticlockwise, but I tried bottoming it out both ways just to be on the safe side...even though the steering feels good I wonder if it is the tilt tube. I dont know if this is relevant but when I tilted it right up, as it came within an inch of max tilt the electric motor sounded sad as though the battery was low, which it wasnt....its a bit odd.

Cheers

Steeler
30-06-2010, 09:14 AM
Ozscott

I once had a merc inline 6 ( later model internal trim ) on a stand ready to pull apart and realized i still had it in the fully up position and even though i released the pressure in the thing i still had to literally stand on the back of the mid section to get it down. I take it you could hear the motor trying to bring it down ?.

FNQCairns
30-06-2010, 09:22 AM
yeah mate a bit odd alright, without looking at it, the fulcrum effect upon the tilt tube makes it unlikely to be here, have you put your weight on the leg...possibly as someone tries the down button. cannot see how the steering could be at fault.

Does sound like you have the right screw, tried removing the filler bolt? be sure the screw is done up tight first or you might get a bump. The cylinders will all be full of fluid and to remove it the pump needs to reroute the oil past a check valve......if this circuit also has a check valve and it's blocked then the motor will sound sick as the system is fully pressurised as well as the release screw may have no effect....no idea really just chewing the fat.

Try the release valve with the filler bolt removed? Then try removing the release screw entirely (is this possible while still fitted??)...would do this only if i knew what to expect of the parts that might come out so they didn't get lost.

Better all this at home than offshore!

ozscott
30-06-2010, 09:24 AM
Thanks FNQ - yep sure is better to have had it happen at home! I will give those things a go today to see if there is hydraulic lock somewhere and report back. Thanks again.

cheers

ozscott
30-06-2010, 09:58 AM
I found this searching iboats:

See the following:http://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifhttp://forums.iboats.com/clear.gif(PTT Hydraulic Lockup)http://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifhttp://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifIf the engine has been trailered without having both of the trim rams pulled in, or trailered without even having the engine being supported by the trailering support, it is possible for the PTT to encounter a hydraulic lock up. The slight up and down motion, when trailering allows over 1700 psi of oil pressure to build up on the wrong side of the oil pump. Since the oil pump cannot exceed that 1700 psi, the unit is effectively hydraulically locked into position (the elec motor runs and does nothing).http://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifhttp://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifThe proper method for trailering is to have the engine in a full tilt position and resting on the trailering support bracket, then have both trim rams pulled in to a point where the engine makes a jerking motion. At this point, immediately take your finger off of the PTT trim switch. Now, quickly and sharply, tap the PTT up button. This removes the vast majority of down hydraulic pressure but at the same time, the engine is solidly locked into position and cannot rock up and down.http://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifhttp://forums.iboats.com/clear.gif(The Cure)http://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifHave the engine in the up position and supported so that it cannot fall. Look straight at the PTT assy.... you will see what looks like a large slotted screw on the port (left) side of the PTT assy, but which is in fact a check valve. Remove that valve and what you find inside which is a shuttle valve, and a spring on each end of that shuttle valve.http://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifhttp://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifAfter you've removed those items, look straight inside of that chamber. You'll be looking at the reverse side of another check valve. Look at the hole in the backside of the valve you removed. You will need a punch that will fit inside of that hole.http://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifhttp://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifNow, place the punch inside of the hole in that check valve that is still in the unit, and tap it rather sharply with a hammer. It will take quite a rap but the idea is to unseat the valve to release the hydraulic pressure. Watch your eyes as when you do release the pressure, it will have a tendency to spray out somewhat.http://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifhttp://forums.iboats.com/clear.gifAfter releasing the pressure, reassemble the shuttle valve, springs, and outer check valve. Fill the oil reservoir with PTT fluid, having the engine in the extreme full tilt position. That's it.




....hopefully I wont have to get to the point of peening a valve, but its an interesting read.

Cheers

ozscott
30-06-2010, 12:44 PM
OK - she was a little low on oil so I topped it up using Dextron III. I also screwed the 'emergency' screw on the side back and forth to it bottomed out at end end and activated the pump up and down while the screw was in both positions and while I unbolted and bolted down again the fill plug...no change. The bottom 2 rams - the small trim rams move in and out fully - but whilst a few little bubbles appear around the top of the tilt ram body at the shaft, so movement at all. I have also really yanked on the motor near the skeg and no luck....

ozscott
30-06-2010, 12:57 PM
Ozscott

I once had a merc inline 6 ( later model internal trim ) on a stand ready to pull apart and realized i still had it in the fully up position and even though i released the pressure in the thing i still had to literally stand on the back of the mid section to get it down. I take it you could hear the motor trying to bring it down ?.

Thanks mate - I will try standing on it - yep motor goes fine. If that does not work is it worth cracking off the hydraulic lines that I can get to in sutu?

Cheers

ozscott
30-06-2010, 02:58 PM
Standing on it didnt work - If I have a crack at that check valve release as set out above how much pressure will be trapped in there in terms of what will come out...

Cheers

FNQCairns
30-06-2010, 04:14 PM
Standing on it didnt work - If I have a crack at that check valve release as set out above how much pressure will be trapped in there in terms of what will come out...

Cheers

Just a little bit as it will seal again in a fraction of a second, Will not hurt your hands or anything like that, if you pressed your skin up against a pin hole and it let go you would get an injection but as soon as it travels across air for even 5mm all will be good and safe as long as your eyes or any other sensitive parts are where they should be:)

I would try cracking the tubes first but I wouldn't try so hard as to butcher it (it can be seriously hard to crack these at times), your post above from that other site makes for good reading although personally i would like to leave hamering on a valve as a last resort but would have at that check valve with a hammer before deciding to pull the whole unit out.

good to read you are making progress.

whiteman
30-06-2010, 04:25 PM
If that iboat quote is from "rodbolt", you are in the best hands. He has helped me many times (same motor as you so watching this thread intently!). Go for it.

Steeler
30-06-2010, 04:40 PM
Try that method Scott,at the end of the day so long as you have the motor supported by the bracket it's only a bit of a mess you only need to clean up and if you have a pair old safety glasses around stick em on. Your symptoms as you described it certainly sound like those described from the iboat forum.

Good luck with it.

Steeler

ozscott
30-06-2010, 08:09 PM
Thanks fellas. Yep Rodbolt is the man for Yammy, but I dont think that one was from him.

Cheers

Jarrah Jack
30-06-2010, 08:33 PM
Sounds like you should go for it Oz, only way to find out. With all us as backup what more could you need. When you hit that valve just say to yourself... four stroke!;D

ozscott
30-06-2010, 08:55 PM
Jarrah - that got me chuckling mate...I like it....I have a mate with a new 350 MPI Mercruiser in his Reef Runner...he came past me the other day. I gave mine a wind out at 5600rpm and 63kph in half metre chop and he reeled me in reasonably quickly....so now my childish desires are coming out and I am thinking if I re-power I need 200hp on the back and in that size that probably means 2 stroke to keep the weight down....(my 2 sons were up me to go faster and I had to explain that I was going flat knacker...._) interestingly the Yamaha just loves to rev at 5500 she is impressively smooth and not much louder than 4000 rpm.

Cheers

PS. I usually cruise at about 4500...I dont usually thrash it!

ozscott
02-07-2010, 05:49 PM
Did I say I love this motor...did the above trick. Unscrewed the shuttle valve and took it out and gave the inner valve plate a light hit and with a small pop and some fluid coming out the leg was able to be lowered. Whilst there I got rid of the old fluid which was nice and clean and free of water. I filled, bled, topped up, bled etc until all the air was out and she was running smoothly with no jerkiness and no air bubbling. I then started her and flushed her out...love the sound of the old girl...like a race bike - snarly.

Can see no reason not to keep her....

Cheers

FNQCairns
02-07-2010, 06:01 PM
Mission accomplished and great to know of a guinea-pigs successful outcome if ever my yam90 sees the same predicament:)

Ozscott do you think the cause was in fact operator error, innocent as it was.?

Steeler
02-07-2010, 06:22 PM
Yes yes and disco's

Jarrah Jack
02-07-2010, 06:25 PM
On ya mate well done. Looks like the bank balance will stay healthy for a while yet.

ozscott
02-07-2010, 07:14 PM
Mission accomplished and great to know of a guinea-pigs successful outcome if ever my yam90 sees the same predicament:)

Ozscott do you think the cause was in fact operator error, innocent as it was.?

...what lack of use?

Cheers

ozscott
02-07-2010, 07:18 PM
Yes yes and disco's


dont you start...;D

Cheers

Steeler
02-07-2010, 07:50 PM
I like Disco's but my minister for war,finance and lack of luv'n won't let me have either !!!!!

Steeler

ozscott
02-07-2010, 08:05 PM
Thanks Jarrah...it was satisfying getting it sorted, relatively quickly, and keeping $15-$20k of my hard earned where it belongs.

Steeler - mate just tell her who is boss! (then run)....I reckon once you are riding around in it she wont be able to resist you...its that Brit rub off from James Bond...:)

Cheers

FNQCairns
02-07-2010, 08:24 PM
...what lack of use?

Cheers

I thought trailering with the engine fully tilted up??:-?

ozscott
02-07-2010, 08:30 PM
I thought trailering with the engine fully tilted up??:-?

I'm with you mate. No - that article was about doing it with all the load on the ram. I use the trailering brackets/arms. I am going to use a large trailer roller on one of the trim rams that I saw pictured by Spaniard King but I have always tilted the motor and then brought it down to the trailering arms and then dropped it a tad more to make sure the ram was not doing any of the weight bearing. I reckon it was lack of use or some air in it - it happened after going back on the trailer at the ramp after a day on the water (tilted it up full and went to tilt it back down onto the arms but it didnt go down onto the arms and stayed where it was until the little shuttle valve hit.

Cheers

Spaniard_King
02-07-2010, 08:47 PM
Scott,

I have experienced your problem quite a few times on different brand engines too but I have always got away with loosening the manual release valve and I have always instructed the owners not to leave engine at full tilt. Even Just a touch of the down trim is enough to prevent the lockup happening again.

Glad you got it sorted tho.

ozscott
02-07-2010, 08:54 PM
Thanks Gary. I must admit sitting on the trailering arms the Yammy is very close to the top of its tilt arm - it only comes down about half an inch from full tilt to get the arms to engage on the top of the engine bracket...so I am going to use your idea with a roller, but it was just odd that it did it when I titled it up from a day out on the Bay - ie it was not at full tilt for more than a split second before I hit the down button under the cowl.

Cheers

dnej
02-07-2010, 11:17 PM
Garry,
What is your opinion of travelling with the rams in the in position. I was told its better to travel with them in the out position. The manual say to travel with them in.
David

Spaniard_King
03-07-2010, 07:49 AM
David,

I don't know of anyone who does this, the only advantage could be that the hydraulic unit will be pulling hard down on the trailering arm but in doing this it may break the arm.. they don't appear to be all that strong IMO

Mister
03-07-2010, 09:26 AM
The tilt-support arm is NOT a trailering support and the recommended trailering position for any outboard is in the normal running position but of course this is not always practical or possible.

Tilt'n trim rams are best fully retracted when travelling as less chance of attracting dirt and dust which will chew out the seals.

The second best is trimmed/supported as low as possible with trim rams fully retracted.

dnej
03-07-2010, 09:58 AM
Garry, and mister.
Referring to the trim tilt rams.
I thought it would be best to travel with the trim rams in. As you know they take no part in the trailering position.

However, another good specialists suggests that that puts un necessary pressure long term on the system. I agree with protecting the rams from dirt, and so does the manual. Conflicting information
Regards David

Steeler
03-07-2010, 10:04 AM
made mention before i have some keel rollers placed over my trim rams and trim down til the rollers are taking the weight.No problems to date.

Steeler

whiteman
03-07-2010, 07:13 PM
Steeler - got a photo?

Steeler
03-07-2010, 07:25 PM
Nuh, but i am only familier with Mercs that have the 2 trim rams and the single power ram that takes it all the way and what i do is slip a couple of old keel rollers over the 2 trim rams then lower it down til the trim rams retract far enough so that its only resting on the rollers.

I am pretty sure a thread existed about a month ago and several on here use the same method and there could very well have been a pic or two.

Steeler