Rock fishing legislation

[NAGG]

With what appears to be yet another drowning of a NSW rock fisherman - Is it time that the state governments legislate that an approved life preserver be worn by any one participating in what is Australia's most dangerous pass time ?

Rock fishing is the most dangerous sport in Australia. More people are killed participating in this sport ( for want of a better word ) than any other outdoor leisure activity. edit here by Lucky_Phill. Moderator.

[krazyfisher]

how would you tell between rock fishing and fishing on a rock? if you know what I mean.

[NAGG]

Straight up - I'm going to say yes !

Being an old rock fishoe from way back , spending many years on the rock ledges of NSW ..... I would have used an inflatable yolk if one was available ( regardless of laws)
Rock fisherman are often some of the silliest people I've ever met - totally clueless ! Fishing in conditions that are outright dangerous , wear the wrong clothing ( I've seen overalls & steel capped boots) , often fishing alone , dont watch the conditions or tide & worst of all ....... often cannot swim.

These days you require a license to fish in NSW & if you venture out in a boat you need certain safety gear. If you ride a push bike you are required to wear a helmet !
What's the difference :undecided:


Chris

[PaulMark]

With you on that Chris,PFD 1 minimum.If you get washed off and bash your head at least you have half a chance.Its no different to any extreme sport and inflatable yolks are available these days for very reasonable outlay.There is I'm afraid a bit of machismo to overcome.To be honest you've got your life on sale for a bargain price:wut: IMHO.
Paulo

[bennykenny]

how would you tell between rock fishing and fishing on a rock? if you know what I mean.
i was thinking the same thing, where do you start the law where the sand meets the beach, or past the breakers. Are we just going to over legislate like everything else, personal safety is a personal responsibility. i have been a rock fisherman since i was a teenager,when i was living down south, fishing some of the most dangerous rock platforms on the south coast of NSW, when i would arrive at my fishing destination i would sit for 15-20 mins and just watch what the ocean was doing and while i was waiting i would plan an escape route, so if i did happen to get washed in i would be able to get out, and most of all if the swell was to big, forget about the fishing.Now im not saying that its a bad idea, its a bloody good one, to wear PFDs but you cant protect everyone with legislation. cheers BK

[NAGG]

i was thinking the same thing, where do you start the law where the sand meets the beach, or past the breakers. Are we just going to over legislate like everything else, personal safety is a personal responsibility. i have been a rock fisherman since i was a teenager,when i was living down south, fishing some of the most dangerous rock platforms on the south coast of NSW, when i would arrive at my fishing destination i would sit for 15-20 mins and just watch what the ocean was doing and while i was waiting i would plan an escape route, so if i did happen to get washed in i would be able to get out, and most of all if the swell was to big, forget about the fishing. cheers BK

BK - you are one of the experienced / sensible ones ....... your approach was just like mine :smiley: but having said that , I was bowled over 3 times but because of my chosen locations & watching conditions ..... all I lost was some bark! :sad: - However regardless of experience even the best get into trouble ( I personally know of 2 experienced fishoes who drowned fishing the stones)

Now - just maybe this is one of those sports with such a high risk that there does need to be some legislation - 6 drowned in 1 week ( yellow rock at Malabar has claimed well over 100 anglers over the years)

I guess my start point would be any location that is exposed to ocean swells

Chris

[rockfisho]

I Voted a No!!. Where does commonsense come into this, If you dont have it, you shouldnt be rockfishing. Similarly what defines "rockfishing". Can rock fishing be standing on a concrete jetty in the river?

Foam Life jackets are bad, inflatable ones are by far the best. The foam ones (ones i have called life jackets) inhibit your ability to move rather seriously, and can slow you down swimming, or prevent you being able to dive under a wave if need be.

I'm both a keen surfer and rockfisho, and obviusly know that the waves are least powerful if you go down underneath them, that is the best way to get away from teh rocks, if you float, you are likely to be washed back onto them.

Just as an example, The number of times ive seen fellas drinking a six pack while rockhopping on fraser island, dont know what the hell they are thinking thats for sure...

Owen

[NAGG]

I Voted a No!!. Where does commonsense come into this, If you dont have it, you shouldnt be rockfishing. Similarly what defines "rockfishing". Can rock fishing be standing on a concrete jetty in the river?

Foam Life jackets are bad, inflatable ones are by far the best. The foam ones (ones i have called life jackets) inhibit your ability to move rather seriously, and can slow you down swimming, or prevent you being able to dive under a wave if need be.

I'm both a keen surfer and rockfisho, and obviusly know that the waves are least powerful if you go down underneath them, that is the best way to get away from teh rocks, if you float, you are likely to be washed back onto them.

Just as an example, The number of times ive seen fellas drinking a six pack while rockhopping on fraser island, dont know what the hell they are thinking thats for sure...

Owen

UN-COMMONSENSE ..... is more applicable for plenty of rock fishoes !

A yolk is by far the best option IMO - so its why it would need to be an approved model
I recently read a report on drownings over a 10 year period & 80% of those were conscience while in the water prior to going under - so I would imagine that a vest would have saved around 60 people !

[deepfried]

No for me but that is because i see no real need for it up here on the far north coast of NSW where i fish. It may be appropriate for the ledges down south but i think education is far more important than legislation in this case. If i saw a need for one i would wear it even if it wasnt legislated but that again comes back to knowledge of the circumstances and conditions.

What happens if legislation is put in place and people still die doing what they love and what really is their choice by going rock fishing ? Do we then ban the sport.

[PNG1M]

What if it became law and you went for a bit of a low-key fish off a very safe gently sloping rock platform at the end of surfing beach, on a calm day with zero swell and you got fined for not wearing one? That'd be a pisser...

[Steeler]

You can't legislate against stupidity.The conditions of late in those areas have not been akin to safe fishing.

[4x4frog]

With out putting to finer point on it, the families of both tragedies have been of Aisan extraction. Many of the drownings and rescues on Bondi Rescue are for people of similar backgrounds. It's commonly known they are not usually strong swimmers and I think this is an area that needs careful attention. Teach them to swim mandatory as we do or try to do with our children or fine them heavily if they are rescued because they couldn't swim. Harsh, maybe but you need to start somewhere.
Possibly get them to prove they can swim for a fishing licence?

[mitch92]

Now - just maybe this is one of those sports with such a high risk that there does need to be some legislation


But this is the very same problem everybody complains about. Being in an over-legislated bubble-wrapped world where everybody else is to blame, so the governments keep making legislation, then people complain again.

Common Sense, nuff' said.

Mitch

[mitch92]

And the other thing is having ya wits about you. Knowing what is going on around you is part of fishing IMO. Seeing a bigger wave heading at you, noticing something not quite right, Knowing the surroundings, then using common sense to decide if it safe, or if you need to drop and run etc.

Mitch

[bennykenny]

With out putting to finer point on it, the families of both tragedies have been of Aisan extraction. Many of the drownings and rescues on Bondi Rescue are for people of similar backgrounds. It's commonly known they are not usually strong swimmers and I think this is an area that needs careful attention. Teach them to swim mandatory as we do or try to do with our children or fine them heavily if they are rescued because they couldn't swim. Harsh, maybe but you need to start somewhere.
Possibly get them to prove they can swim for a fishing licence?
stupidity isnt racist, you cant compare what you see on bondi rescue with rock fishos, ive known of 3 guys that have died rock fishing and none of them were asian, and they were strong swimmers, they just werent good thinkers, not enough respect for the ocean

[finga]

Natural selection in my books.
If a person hasn't any common sense then that's the best thing to do before they do something just as stupid in a car and hurt myself or someone I care about.

You can make all the rules and laws you want and who do they affect??
Me and you. The people trying to do the right thing and the people who would sit down and think....bugger. waves are breaking over the top of the ledge. Better go and have a throw in the river instead of these people who would have no regard for laws and think...Mmmmm 20cm bream...let me at them.

[Sevric]

Like many others i spent many of my early fishing days on the rock platforms on the NSW coast. Any one who has seen fellow fishers die in the pursuit of catching a fish or has been washed in several times them selves as i have will support any such law. I only wish the modern self inflating jackets were around in my youth; i would have several more friends today. I would like to see a law making them worn with every water sport. The cost at the moment is very manageable compared with what we spend on the rest of our fishing gear. It brings home to me that i spend more on my braid for one reel than most do on a life jacket.

[Sevric]

PS: Very good thread NAGG

[finga]

Why don't we make chook chaser's have airbags too whilst the rule writing pen is out.
Why do you need to wear a helmet riding a bike and not a scooter or horse??
Why truck drivers need to fill out a log book and a sales rep who travels everyday for his work does not have to fill a log book out??
Why do truck drivers need another class of license to tow a trailer and the average mug with a F250 and goose neck doesn't??

All those who say we need a wear a life jacket on a rock law...do you have one for fishing of rock ledges??. Why haven't you got one now if you have not??
Do you need a law that tells you what to wear going fishing in a dangerous spot?

I too went fishing on ledges before the days of inflatable jacket but on some ledges we used ropes to hold us just in case. Never had to use them but they were there just in case of a freak wave or 70.
Where does common sense come into the equation?
Do we need to have rock ledge closed signs about too because of rough conditions??
Do we need Watch your step signs going down to a rock ledge??
Do we need slippery rocks when wet signs just so people realise wet rocks are slippery??
How about having the Westpac rescue copter hovering over just in case.

People should be taking measures themselves to ensure their own survival not relying on someone to make laws.

So when they make a law who is going to police it?
Will the majority of jackets be unsuitable or no servicing records if they're of the inflatable sort or will everyone have the correct type of jacket and all the servicing up to date??

And it will end up fishing off a rock. Even if the rock is 87km up a river sitting on a bed of sand.

[mitch92]

Finga

you hit the nail on the head. Unless people have stuff to tell them not to do it it's not their fault if something goes wrong. I mean these days who really takes responsibility for their actions these days? It is starting to get beyond a joke the attitudes of some people (Im not meaning this forum, im talking in life).

Mitch

[NAGG]

With out putting to finer point on it, the families of both tragedies have been of Aisan extraction. Many of the drownings and rescues on Bondi Rescue are for people of similar backgrounds. It's commonly known they are not usually strong swimmers and I think this is an area that needs careful attention. Teach them to swim mandatory as we do or try to do with our children or fine them heavily if they are rescued because they couldn't swim. Harsh, maybe but you need to start somewhere.
Possibly get them to prove they can swim for a fishing licence?


& here are some hard facts - There are some interesting statistics taken over a 10 year period


www.safewaters.nsw.gov.au/assets/pdf/rockfishreport_sept03.pdf

[deepfried]

Why don't we make chook chaser's have airbags too whilst the rule writing pen is out.
Why do you need to wear a helmet riding a bike and not a scooter or horse??
Why truck drivers need to fill out a log book and a sales rep who travels everyday for his work does not have to fill a log book out??
Why do truck drivers need another class of license to tow a trailer and the average mug with a F250 and goose neck doesn't??

All those who say we need a law that says that also say they'd have one. Why haven't you got one now?
Do you need a law that tells you what to wear going fishing in a dangerous spot?

I too went fishing on ledges before the days of inflatable jacket but on some ledges we used ropes to hold us just in case. Never had to use them but they were there just in case of a freak wave or 70.
Where does common sense come into the equation?
Do we need to have rock ledge closed signs about too because of rough conditions??
Do we need Watch your step signs going down to a rock ledge??
Do we need slippery rocks when wet signs just so people realise wet rocks are slippery??
How about having the Westpac rescue copter hovering over just in case.

People should be taking measures themselves to ensure their own survival not relying on someone to make laws.

So when they make a law who is going to police it?
Will the majority of jackets be unsuitable or no servicing records if they're of the inflatable sort or will everyone have the correct type of jacket and all the servicing up to date??

I think you have about summed it up finga.

This thread has me worried that people will vote yes without any knowledge of rock fishing because of the tragedies that have occured lately. A bit of a knee jerk reaction to a sport they may know little about.

The drowning part is the final part of the picture. It wouldnt happen as often ( yes it will happen i know that ) if people didnt put themselves into situations that are unsafe and that comes down to education and common sense. Without sounding racist, lately if there was a ban on residents of a certain ethnic back ground rock fishing we wouldnt have this thread at all. I also doubt those most likely to be a statistic on the rocks would wear one anyway because they have very little regard to other fishing laws.

[NAGG]

Finga

you hit the nail on the head. Unless people have stuff to tell them not to do it it's not their fault if something goes wrong. I mean these days who really takes responsibility for their actions these days? It is starting to get beyond a joke the attitudes of some people (Im not meaning this forum, im talking in life).

Mitch


Mitch - I dont think that its a case of telling people what to do (legislation for the sake of legislation) ......... but clearly too many people disregard or have no idea of the dangers that they face!
I totally agree that each individual is responsible for there own actions ...... The trouble is that people are able to walk onto any rock platform regardless of experience & knowledge and start fishing .......
The other point is that these unprepared newbies often endanger the lives of others
Its now law to wear a PFD when making a bar crossing ....... why ? Is it because there are people that have no common sense or is it because things can & do go wrong when crossing a bar ?

Sometimes I feel we get a little too precious about our civil rights - I can still remember the hoo haa about Drink driving laws & could only imagine what people said about mandatory seat belts (today its an accepted part of life ... mostly) ..........
I would much rather see someones feelings upset than to hear of more drownings - better off making sure that someone has means to improve their chances of survival than not.

Chris

[Flex]

All good points Finga.I agree with you on natural selection. To much cotton wool tends to give people a 'common sense' labotomy. End of the day people need to take responsibilty for their own safety.

As a society why do we need to be policed on safety gear that will save OUR lives? Its rather pathetic if you ask me.As intelligent beings we seem to have lost the basic instinct of self preservation.

If you want to rock fish in 3m swells then thats fine IMO. Maybe we'd cull a few from the shallow end of the gene pool, as harsh as it is to say. For me personally I know for a fact I'd take all safety gear regardless of legislation because at the end of the day its my life in my hands.

Some people have to ask themselves " why am i putting my body in a situation where I can get seriously hurt of die?


I work in the mining industry, and safety requirements are anal to say the least.
From my experience over legistration of safety tends to make people rely on safety 'systems/laws' for their safety instead of good ol common sense and self preservation.

[NAGG]

I think you have about summed it up finga.

This thread has me worried that people will vote yes without any knowledge of rock fishing because of the tragedies that have occured lately. A bit of a knee jerk reaction to a sport they may know little about.

The drowning part is the final part of the picture.

Deepfried - I put this up because I have a background in rockfishing & I've seen what can & does happen.
This type of discussion shouldn't be about a knee jerk reaction ......... people die on the rocks year in year out _ these recent events just highlight the need for discussion.

Chris

[finga]

Its now law to wear a PFD when making a bar crossing ....... why ? Is it because there are people that have no common sense or is it because things can & do go wrong when crossing a bar ?
But do they all??

Sometimes I feel we get a little too precious about our civil rights - I can still remember the hoo haa about Drink driving laws & could only imagine what people said about mandatory seat belts (today its an accepted part of life ... mostly) ..........
But does everyone wear a seat belt or drive sober??
Chris
Chris, mate...the biggest problem is people do not take notice of rules and regulations if they don't want to. The key been IF THEY DON"T WANT TOO.
When you consider the advertising campaigns that went into the seat belts wearing and people still do not wear seatbelts. For what-ever reason who knows. Who cares.
Look at the number of people speeding and compare the educational programmes that have come in and out to warn people of the dangers of speeding. What is it?? Over $380 odd thousands of dollars per day of fines for people speeding in QLD. Why??
How comprehensive was the advertising of wearing a life jacket whilst crossing bar??
I reckon a high percentage of people still would not know about it.
No matter to us because we wore jackets well before legislation came in.

Yes it sad when people die but people die. Fact of life.
But an education programme letting people know of the dangers then there is absolutely no harm in that. It would be a welcome change actually trying to let people know things like that.
I'd rather see an ad on telly telling people of the dangers of fishing of headlands and snorkelling with sharks then seiing an ad on telly with a politician telling us porky pies or big noting himself or an ad advertising 'We'll tell you your ideal partners name if you MSM your name to 1800 rip me off'

I too agree we are too precious about civil rights but we are precious to the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
We have to respect the rights (including anonymity) of kiddy molesters or granny bashers or murderers but if I want to ride the deadly treadly 200m up the road I need a helmet. No if's or but's.

[NAGG]

Chris, mate...the biggest problem is people do not take notice of rules and regulations if they don't want to. The key been IF THEY DON"T WANT TOO.
When you consider the advertising campaigns that went into the seat belts wearing and people still do not wear seatbelts. For what-ever reason who knows. Who cares.
Look at the number of people speeding and compare the educational programmes that have come in and out to warn people of the dangers of speeding. What is it?? Over $380 odd thousands of dollars per day of fines for people speeding in QLD. Why??

Yes it sad when people die but people die. Fact of life.
But an education programme letting people know of the dangers then there is absolutely no harm in that. It would be a welcome change actually trying to let people know things like that.
I'd rather see an ad on telly telling people of the dangers of fishing of headlands and snorkelling with sharks then seiing an ad on telly with a politician telling us porky pies or big noting himself or an ad advertising 'We'll tell you your ideal partners name if you MSM your name to 1800 rip me off'

I too agree we are too precious about civil rights but we are precious to the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
We have to respect the rights (including anonymity) of kiddy molesters or granny bashers or murderers but if I want to ride the deadly treadly 200m up the road I need a helmet. No if's or but's and no argument from me??

atm ..... there is no law / requirement for anyone to wear a PFD - If it becomes law ( with an associated considerable fine) then the majority would wear one or go and fish a location that does not require one.
So instead of the 1 or 2% that currently wear one - we might get 90% & the rate of drownings should fall accordingly........ Its simple logic
Sure you are always going to get people who flout the laws ...... but its the minority

Chris

[aussiefool]

I for one voted no.

As you know I fish the stones and love it,but because I do fish the rocks and have got to know the area well if the swell is up then I will not fish full stop as I believe that no fish is worth putting your life at risk for.
If there was a law brought on making it a requirement to wear a life jacket then then there will be some that will wear the foam types and not inflatable ones. For me if I went into the drink then I would want to be able to swim away from the rocks and not be washed around like a cork.

If it is ever brought in I would like to see that it is only the yoke type inflatable
Aussiefool
Andrew

[finga]

atm ..... there is no law / requirement for anyone to wear a PFD - If it becomes law ( with an associated considerable fine) then the majority would wear one or go and fish a location that does not require one.
So instead of the 1 or 2% that currently wear one - we might get 90% & the rate of drownings should fall accordingly........ Its simple logic
Sure you are always going to get people who flout the laws ...... but its the minority

Chris
But when does it all end?
When are there enough rules that direct people as to how they're supposed to act and what they're supposed to do to try and keep themselves alive?

People have mentioned that people drown swimming at patrolled beaches.
Do we make a law saying people swimming at beaches need to wear an inflatable jacket??
What about the backyard pool??
The numbers of people drowning at beaches and private pools would be higher then off the rocks.

So they bring in a law that tells us to wear a lifejacket whilst fishing off any rocks.
It's then OK to be pi$$ed as a parrot whilst fishing off the said rocks as long as you have a lifejacket on??

[4x4frog]

stupidity isnt racist, you cant compare what you see on bondi rescue with rock fishos, ive known of 3 guys that have died rock fishing and none of them were asian, and they were strong swimmers, they just werent good thinkers, not enough respect for the ocean
So true Benny.
I didn't read my post back before I posted it.
I also meant to mention that in all the footage of the last incidents, the only people visible and noted as family were asian. It is pertinent that we make certain everyone who is close enough to the water is drown proof or this will keep happening.
Maybe they turned their back/s on the waves but the group of 5 who drowned was in my book just sheer stupidity.
Yep, it is natural selection at work if you look at it harshly but surely preventable.

[NAGG]

But when does it all end Chris?
When are there enough rules that direct people as to how they're supposed to act and what they're supposed to do to try and keep themselves alive?

People have mentioned that people drown swimming at patrolled beaches.
Do we make a law saying people swimming at beaches need to wear an inflatable jacket??
What about the backyard pool??
The numbers of people drowning at beaches and private pools would be higher then off the rocks.

All very true - but that is in some ways taking it to the extreme ( I'm not for the cotton wool approach)
I certainly dont think that wearing an inflatable yolk is extreme ...... just like wearing cleats or non slip boots ...... Its the right gear for the hazards faced .
Risk minimization is always the key ....... it wont make everything 100% safe but it will have a impact.

Chris

[finga]

I was just thinking about where I go fishing a lot.
The north wall at Evans Head.
At the end or beach side of the wall I would not go fish there no matter if I had a lifeline on and a helicopter hovering over me (bad seas).
But 10m away on the river side of the wall on the same day the biggest threat is tripping over a lead attached to someone pomeranian.
How do they legislate that scenario?

[4x4frog]

Just read the article on the latest drowning at Bondi from the Telegraph.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/father-to-be-qintao-wang-lost-at-sea-while-rock-fishing-at-north-bondi/story-e6freuy9-1225867432252
The 5th paragraph is the telling one.
Sad though, the guy will never see his un-born child.
In experience was in my opinion the biggest problem here.
I have seen all these rock fishing spots in Sydney and even back in the 80's when I was down there and considerably fitter than I am now, I doubt I would have fished too many of the spots as they were just peppered by huge waves most of the time.

[finga]

Just read the article on the latest drowning at Bondi from the Telegraph.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/father-to-be-qintao-wang-lost-at-sea-while-rock-fishing-at-north-bondi/story-e6freuy9-1225867432252

I might seem harsh but if someone goes fishing in the conditions shown in that photograph and drown they do not get much sympathy from me.
You do not need much intelligence to realise the dangers that would be associated with fishing under those conditions.
Would wearing a jacket have prevented his death (if he's dead)?
Not if his head was bashed against some rocks it wouldn't have.

Maybe he should have thought about his wife, unborn child and the lives of his rescuers before climbing down a steel ladder into those conditions to get a possible feed of fish??

[NAGG]

I might seem harsh but if someone goes fishing in the conditions shown in that photograph and drown they do not get much sympathy from me.
You do not need much intelligence to realise the dangers that would be associated with fishing under those conditions.
Would wearing a jacket have prevented his death (if he's dead)?
Not if his head was bashed against some rocks it wouldn't have.

Maybe he should have thought about his wife, unborn child and the lives of his rescuers before climbing down a steel ladder into those conditions to get a possible feed of fish??


We will never know - will we ?

These locations ( Sydney Eastern Suburbs) are some of the most notorious on the NSW coast - They should only be fished by experienced anglers & in good conditions (which they were not).
The truth of the matter is that in years gone by , they were frequented only by the experienced ........ today any Joe will wonder down if he thinks that he can get a feed & away from the crowds.
Sorry but when it comes to rock fishing - there is too much uncommon sense:sad:

Chris

[FNQCairns]

Originally I voted undecided before anyone had replied, been thinking about it since.

A standard PFD1 will see many more in the water that wouldn't have without it. A automatic inflatable PFD1 will see many of those that fall without the ability to get away from the rocks and wash, could in theory be the safety device that ended up beating them to death.

An inflatable manual PFD1 will save lives esp so down south where a rock fishing trip in winter means rugging up heavily + sometimes waders even, if a person goes in like this struggling is just delaying the inevitable.

I have spear fished lots of times in heavy seas right next to rock fishing areas, the 'surf' doesn't actually want to throw you onto the rocks it just wants to move you forward and back and actually over any given time period back toward calmer open sea than onto the rocks, just 5-8 feet from the rocks and in water too deep to stand up in is often quite safe (but might still be very scary to the uninitiated) to just bob around in..

I am changing my answer to yes but only for the manual inflatables as I suspect that 99/100 that go in will go in conscious enough to pull a cord when it becomes safe enough to do so.

Now what to do with everyone who swims everywhere/anywhere else for recreation but without a lifejacket on?

[finga]

there is too much uncommon sense:sad:

Chris
How too true matey. How very true. :sad:

[lifestyle]

We dont need any more laws to govern what we can and cannot do in our life. Next you will need to fill out risk assesments before going to wet a line. And put a harness and life line on, hard hat,life jacket, approved for wear and all gear mark with the australian standards mark. Or what the rule markes will do is just ban all rock fishing from places which could be seen as a moderate risk. Life is full of risks .

[2manylures]

It's a bit like swimming between the flags.

[TheRealAndy]

It's a bit like swimming between the flags.


Yup, soon they will legislate that. Then they will make it a law to wear a pdf when swimming between the flags cause a few poeple have drowned.

[PNG1M]

I was on Fraser last July and up at Indian Head. There was no-one fishing on the rocks and the conditions on the South side looked extremely inviting. I had my 8' St Croix surf casting rod matched to a 300 Conquest and some nice new metals.

After surveying the conditions for half an hour I decided it would be safe enough; at least for a quick 10-15min session.

Did I go??? NOPE... WHY NOT...???

1) Because I would have been fishing alone, with the wife & kids up on the beach.

2) I had no rock sandals or cleats & would have been wearing bare feet or normal sandals.

3) If I had've hooked a solid fish the above factors would have been compounded.

4) Plus you never know when a freak wave will rise up from nowhere and you gotta make a run for it.

5) I wouldn't have wanted to involve other people in a rescue!

6) Even though I had a fair bit of rock fishing experience in past years (mostly when after blackfish) I hadn't been off the rocks for well over 12 months & was rusty...so I kinda got the heebie geebies too.


So after a fair bit of "should I or shouldn't I" the safety-first option won out and I just "imagined" the fantastic spinning session I might have had.

[NAGG]

I've gotta say - I'm a little surprised by some of the negative responses :huh: I would have thought that most would agree that a device that may save ones life is a good thing ?
I guess too many dont like government intervention - regardless if it is good or bad !
It will be interesting to see this poll run its course - and hear both sides of the debate

Chris

[hungry6]

I vote no, NANNY STATE!!!!!
For those that drowned in the past, it is a tragedy, but they also have collected the "Darwin Award"
I'm of asian background and a very strong swimmer, would I walk onto a unfamiliar rock ledge in daylight? not a hope in hel, let alone in the dark, and I've fished pretty much most of the rock ledge of the east coast.
Being a strong swimmer does raise your survival rate abit, but the odds are still against you when u fall in the briny. I have swam with a PDF1 on before and No I wouldnt have one around my neck bobbing up and down in violent water against a rock.
But what ever make people feels safe tends to make them more complacent with their surrounding. just my 2 cents

[TimiBoy]

You can't legislate against stupidity.

They won't enforce it.

It's not a frikken' nanny state.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!

My two bits.

Tim

[lifestyle]

I am surprised the yes vote is ahead. How many rules do we need. Every year ppl damage their spine in the surf due to the waves. My be we should say no surfing in a swell greater than .5mtre just in case. or that you need a swimming licence to show you are capable of swimming . lol People die every day it is a fact of life whether car crashes fishing misshaps or sports field injuries or just bad luck.

[lifestyle]

I have just solved the problem .. MAKE ALL ROCK FISHING LOCATIONS GREEN ZONES . That will be next

[Charlie]

I haven't voted because it's already certain you'll have to wear soon, those guys I see fishing in chest waders in near Botany Bay will hardly be able to move once they add PDF on top.
Rock fishing a bit like driving a car with a certain level of baseline risk built then it's a safer or dangerous as the individual choose to make it. If we have people available to get out and enforce this why not send them out and try to talk some common sense to people.

[banshee]

I'm not some one who used to go rock fishing,I'm some one who still does and I say you've got to be joking.There have been warnings on the hour every hour for the last five days down this way that specificaly state 'Do not go rock fishing due to dangerous swell and surf conditions' and yet some numb nuts thinks he knows better and cops it.......next thing you know some one has a plan to save me (from myself)......NO life jackets here.......I'm with Finga,one less idiot in the gene pool.

[finding_time]

Seriously do we need any more rules in this country???????? As has been said many times , you cant legislate for idiots. This countryprobably has more rules than any other we are so overgoverned it not funny so it's a big NO from me. I haven't rock fished in years but some days were dangerous so we didn't fish, it was that simple.

Ian

PS.

As has also been stated can you imagine the uproar if some guy got pinned for standing on a piece of coffee rock on the beach because he wasn't wearing a life jacket!

[SQUIDDA]

Who would police it?

[NAGG]

Who would police it?

The police , fisheries , Maritime (NSW) ..... all could do it as part of their general duties - no different to how boat safety gear & licenses are currently checked.

Chris

[STUIE63]

I voted no because making a new law will not change anything . and where will the line in the sand be will it only stop at rock ledges or will it include every rock on a beach , or will it include the beach . I have never been to these places but if up here is anything to go by then I am sure there are plenty of signs warning of the dangers .
the simple thing is if you make something idiot proof they find a bigger idiot
Stuie

[murf]

a PFD sure would make it esier for the authorities to pick the idiots bodies out of the water :rolleyes:

no for me

put plenty of recommendations on do's and don't's in the glossy literature for the powers to be to get a warm fuzzy feeling but then let us make an informed decision, don't tell me I need to have a PFD to go looking in rock pools or to throw a line in

cheers Murf

[saphire]

Yes. Only because of what is happening out there. There are people who have limited swiming ability taking on the power of the ocean.
I know this sounds unfair to those who have a fantastic knowledge of safety when rock fishing.
I dont believe such legislation would get passed as it would be too difficult to police.
Maybe Im wrong but that is how I see it.

[finga]

Gidday Saphire. Good to hear from you again :smiley:

Yes. Only because of what is happening out there. There are people who have limited swiming ability taking on the power of the ocean.
I have limited sky diving experience.
There is no way I'm going to jump out of a plane....even with a parachute.
People need to understand their own limitations at some stage in life because we cannot follow them around with signs and laws.

[Luc]

I also voted no.

We already have too much laws, rules and regulations trying to protect people from themselves. It's only feelgood stuff and ends up not working.

I have done a lot of fishing the rocks around Noosa heads. NEVER by myself and regularly returned to the car without wetting a line as we felt it was too risky.

I used to be a lifesaver and remember getting abused when trying to explain to people (often tourists and new comers) why they should swim between the flags.

Life is full of risks and you can't protect everyone.

IMO one of the worst aspect of many of those rules is that they make people feel safe and therefore more inatentive and careless.

Luc

[TimiBoy]

I dont believe such legislation would get passed as it would be too difficult to police.
Maybe Im wrong but that is how I see it.

Well how many Laws have they passed that they cannot/don't/barely police? Let's list a few...

Green Zones
Size limits
Bag limits

The are many others. It's all about having Joe Public think they are doing something, when they actually aren't.

Tim

[finga]

Well how many Laws have they passed that they cannot/don't/barely police? Let's list a few...

Green Zones
Size limits
Bag limits

The are many others. It's all about having Joe Public think they are doing something, when they actually aren't.

Tim
Oh, I don't know about policing Timi.
A little story...
I was walking the dog along the beach at Evans.
There was only me and the dog and a walker within eye sight on the entire beach.
I got lumbered by 2 'compliance officers' who drove onto the beach where cars are not allowed.
They had binoculars looking from the look-out and could see every bloody where without moving.
Another long story short the pooch was driven home in the back of the paddy wagon because I did my nut again....and it felt good too to knock down (verbally of course :rolleyes:) the dog hating nazi's at Evans Head.

So the moral of the story.....if there's easy money to be made they'll police it...

[NAGG]

Yes. Only because of what is happening out there. There are people who have limited swiming ability taking on the power of the ocean.
I know this sounds unfair to those who have a fantastic knowledge of safety when rock fishing.
I dont believe such legislation would get passed as it would be too difficult to police.
Maybe Im wrong but that is how I see it.

Policing any of these things are difficult ....... but all it takes is for a few raids at known hot spots ..... put it in the press & the message would get out ........ certainly along the fishermans grape vine.

I still cant see how legislating a device that might save the anglers life is a bad thing
Yes you cant legislate against stupidity - that's for sure

Chris

[STUIE63]

Policing any of these things are difficult ....... but all it takes is for a few raids at known hot spots ..... put it in the press & the message would get out ........ certainly along the fishermans grape vine.

I still cant see how legislating a device that might save the anglers life is a bad thing
Yes you cant legislate against stupidity - that's for sure

Chris

But Chris it isn't the fisherman dying it is the people that do this infrequently I thought . if that is the case then grapevines won't help

[NAGG]

But Chris it isn't the fisherman dying it is the people that do this infrequently I thought . if that is the case then grapevines won't help

Apparently the group of 5 that went in off Catherine Hill Bay were relatively experienced & familiar with the area .......... I saw an interview with a local rock fishoe that knew them.

But agree ..... Its the migrant ( middle east / Asian) that are often the ones that loose their life....... often they can't swim and dress inappropriately

Chris

[finga]

You also have to remember that some nationalities do not cherish a person's life like most of us do.
Maybe that's why they risk a life or so for the possibility to catch a fish??

[NAGG]

You also have to remember that some nationalities do not cherish a person's life like most of us do.
Maybe that's why they risk a life or so for the possibility to catch a fish??

you're kidding aren't you :huh:

[finga]

you're kidding aren't you :huh:
Nope. Just look at the cultures (usually cultures that suffer from severe poverty) where lots of children are born so that one day one or two will survive to look after the parents.
There are reasons for the figures shown on the map in this link.
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/hea_inf_mor_rat-health-infant-mortality-rate&b_map=1
Some cultures do not like females to be born.
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/006007.html
http://paa2006.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=60960
And a lot of cultures/religions have females treated very differently to the males
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/susan_jacoby/2007/01/religion_and_women_chains_stil.html

And it goes to the other extreme where cultures take their departed (dead) family with them when they move because they think of them as still part of the family. (some North American cultures)

There is a huge myriad of cultural differences out there. We cannot, and should not, compare one belief against what we believe in.

Here's a quote that may shock ""For this land which you now inhabit, shut in on all sides by the sea and the mountain peaks, is too narrow for your large population; it scarcely furnishes food enough for its cultivators. Hence it is that you murder and devour one another, that you wage wars, and that many among you perish in civil strife". That quote was from the tongue of a Pope. Pope Urban II. Granted it was a while ago (1095) but shows how cultures do change and how their attitude towards death also changes.

[deepfried]

finga you completely lost me with that last post and what are you on about. none of that has anything to do with deaths rock fishing or a reason behind it.

[finga]

Just trying to explain how different cultures value life (and death) and even different genders differently.
It might explain why people from certain backgrounds would take more risks to catch a fish then you and I would.
But it looks like I failed dismally. Sorry about that.

A good example would be...would you set out to sea in an Indonesian fishing boat??
I wouldn't.

[NAGG]

finga you completely lost me with that last post and what are you on about. none of that has anything to do with deaths rock fishing or a reason behind it.

I felt exactly the same !

I seriously doubt that anyone ventures onto the rocks with a mindset that if I die - big deal ........ families are still devastated by the loss - & there is no 70 virgins on offer just a potential feed of fish.

As for fishing out of those Indonesian fishing boats - that's what they have - & they probably look at us funny when we go up in an plane & jump out with just a piece of cloth

I dont think we should assume that asians / middle easterns value their life any less than us

Chris

[finga]

Would it have been better to say some cultures are prepared to take more risks to get a feed then what a majority of 5th generation Australians are prepared to take??

[TimiBoy]

Would it have been better to say some cultures are prepared to take more risks to get a feed then what a majority of 5th generation Australians are prepared to take??

I followed you Finga.

The idea of life being treasured in this context is about being prepared to take a risk to achieve result "X". Finga is spot on in that regard, there are cultures which appear to be happy with risks with which we generally don't bandy, and vice-versa.

How does one explain that the majority of recent deaths in NSW are of Asians? Possibilities:

- a gazillion more Asians rock fish. (A logical conclusion but I don't know the numbers)
- Asians have been unlucky (ridiculous)
- Asians will generally take a greater risk to catch fish. (A logical conclusion?)

Note that none of these possibilities is suggestive of racism, just a recognition that cultures differ.

Cheers,

Tim

[NAGG]

Would it have been better to say some cultures are prepared to take more risks to get a feed then what a majority of 5th generation Australians are prepared to take??

Is it because we live in close proximity to the ocean & have greater respect for it ? (we also teach our children to swim)
I doubt too many people from the Middle East would see too much in the way of big waves - the same goes for China , Vietnam , Cambodia etc ..... their lack of exposure just may be the problem .
The same goes for tourists drowning on our beaches - ( lack of familiarity) , 4WD Crashes on Fraser Is - no experience & familiarity

Chris

[NAGG]

I followed you Finga.

The idea of life being treasured in this context is about being prepared to take a risk to achieve result "X". Finga is spot on in that regard, there are cultures which appear to be happy with risks with which we generally don't bandy, and vice-versa.

How does one explain that the majority of recent deaths in NSW are of Asians? Possibilities:

- a gazillion more Asians rock fish. (A logical conclusion but I don't know the numbers)
- Asians have been unlucky (ridiculous)
- Asians will generally take a greater risk to catch fish. (A logical conclusion?)

Note that none of these possibilities is suggestive of racism, just a recognition that cultures differ.

Cheers,

Tim

Hi Tim

There is no doubt that there are more Asians hitting the rocks for a fish ...... During my rock fishing days of the mid 80's to mid 90's it was fairly rare to see them at the many locations that I fished ........ Most were anglo saxon / European ..... particularly LBG or ludderick/drummer fisherman - lots of experienced anglers. But toward the mid 90's more & more we would see middle eastern & a trickle of asians hitting the rocks .... but most stuck to the road bridges , jetties & rivers.
Today ....... and this is something that I never saw ...... They fish the rocks & bring the family too .... I think the last major loss of life was a family group washed in at the Kiama point 20 years ago - & from memory they were from the ME.

[deepfried]

Chris,
I read that report that you posted a link to and it has some interesting findings. With the bulk of the deaths occuring on known ledges and during certain sea conditions it may be easier to just close those ledges on days like those and concentrate policing on those days. It wont stop every death but there are risks in everything we do but it would reduce them very quickly. I also dont think it would piss of the experienced fishos that avoid those conditions knowing how dangerous they are.

[banshee]

Chris,
I read that report that you posted a link to and it has some interesting findings. With the bulk of the deaths occuring on known ledges and during certain sea conditions it may be easier to just close those ledges on days like those and concentrate policing on those days. It wont stop every death but there are risks in everything we do but it would reduce them very quickly. I also dont think it would piss of the experienced fishos that avoid those conditions knowing how dangerous they are.

What a nightmare,closures for certain areas under certain conditions and what if,heaven forbid,the weather mob gets the forecast wrong and we are in a position of being fined for wanting to fish a perfectly safe location......not to mention that you are still trying to save me from myself.....something that I resent after thirty three years of rock hopping.
Also noted that Kiama point was mentioned,there are a multitude of signs in every conceivable language known to man posted on that point and they (the idiots) still choose to ignore them and risk life and limb,that's more than enough legislation I think.

[Blusta]

Just because it is a law doesn't mean it will be followed or regularly checked by those in power. Just more legislation...

[Jurkyjj]

I would have to say yes for the simple reason......if 1 life can be saved......then it is worth it.
BUT.....commonsense must also play a part.

jason.

[TimiBoy]

I would have to say yes for the simple reason......if 1 life can be saved......then it is worth it.
BUT.....commonsense must also play a part.

jason.

Yeah but who are you saving? Natural selection has it's place, as long as these fools fall off the rock before they breed...

Tim

[NAGG]

Just because it is a law doesn't mean it will be followed or regularly checked by those in power. Just more legislation...


But the same goes for a lot of laws & regulations ....... put a big enough fine in place and the odd raid here and there and people will think long and hard about the risk of being caught ........ they might even consider the risk to their life.

Chris

[NAGG]

Yeah but who are you saving? Natural selection has it's place, as long as these fools fall off the rock before they breed...

Tim

Tim

you're a offshore fishoe .... am I right ?

You are required to wear a life jacket when you cross the pin ..... & I'd dare say that you do or would - am I right ?

I'd dare say that you carry all the safety equipment ..... including EPIRB & VHF radio - am I right

I'd dare say that you carry these things because it is smart and it is also the law ?
In years gone by you certainly wouldn't have been required to have all these bits of kit - and many would not have ......... lives are saved .

Chris

Ps ..... Some would say , Bar crossings could also be seen in the same light as rockfishing in some ways -

[TimiBoy]

Tim

you're a offshore fishoe .... am I right ?

You are required to wear a life jacket when you cross the pin ..... & I'd dare say that you do or would - am I right ?

I'd dare say that you carry all the safety equipment ..... including EPIRB & VHF radio - am I right

I'd dare say that you carry these things because it is smart and it is also the law ?
In years gone by you certainly wouldn't have been required to have all these bits of kit - and many would not have ......... lives are saved .

Chris

Ps ..... Some would say , Bar crossings could also be seen in the same light as rockfishing in some ways -

Yep, cross bars. Yep carry all required safety equipment, plus a tow rope in the next boat. I do not have blockies on the boat, I carry 4 decent (not required by Law) lifejackets, including 2 inflators.

2 Gps's/sounder combos for redundancy, and Radar for night time safety. Neither required by Law. Spare globes and fuses on board. Not required, but sensible. VHF & 27 MHz.

My crew will tell you I don't care a hoot how calm it is, you wear a lifejacket when we cross the bar or we don't cross.

I have turned back from the bar on several occasions, because it might be too dangerous.

Lives saved by using my head, not by obeying the Law. The Law should not have to legislate common sense.

Tim

[finga]

I might go sky diving today. With out parachute of course.
Why?? There's no law that says I can't is there??

Fools will always find a way to kill themselves.
Do we need to make a law for every new way someone finds to commit hurry curry even if it saves a life??

I can't wait for the you cannot use a trampoline to jump off a 5 story building into a wading pool law

[NAGG]

Yep, cross bars. Yep carry all required safety equipment, plus a tow rope in the next boat. I do not have blockies on the boat, I carry 4 decent (not required by Law) lifejackets, including 2 inflators.

2 Gps's/sounder combos for redundancy, and Radar for night time safety. Neither required by Law. Spare globes and fuses on board. Not required, but sensible. VHF & 27 MHz.

My crew will tell you I don't care a hoot how calm it is, you wear a lifejacket when we cross the bar or we don't cross.

I have turned back from the bar on several occasions, because it might be too dangerous.

Lives saved by using my head, not by obeying the Law. The Law should not have to legislate common sense.

Tim

Tim but you know ..... like I do that a bar can stand up and bite you ( not all bar crossings are done on a run in tide and no wind)......... So sensibly a law was introduced making the wearing of a PFD compulsory.
Sometimes things occur out of the blue........ & regardless of experience & caution ..... lives are lost - This goes for both rockfishing and bar crossings

Chris

[finga]

Sometimes things occur out of the blue........ & regardless of experience & caution ..... lives are lost - This goes for both rockfishing and bar crossings

Chris
The same could be said for driving in the rain and other common causes of road accidents.
Many, many people die from accidents when they drive in conditions where they should have pulled over and waited until conditions improve.
Many, many people have died because they have had a blow-out on tyres which seemed to be in great condition.

Do we make laws to say when you can drive a car or a law to say you need blow-out proof tyres on your car??

[deepfried]

What a nightmare,closures for certain areas under certain conditions and what if,heaven forbid,the weather mob gets the forecast wrong and we are in a position of being fined for wanting to fish a perfectly safe location......not to mention that you are still trying to save me from myself.....something that I resent after thirty three years of rock hopping.
Also noted that Kiama point was mentioned,there are a multitude of signs in every conceivable language known to man posted on that point and they (the idiots) still choose to ignore them and risk life and limb,that's more than enough legislation I think.

What would forcasts have to do with it ? Beaches are closed in rough seas from observation so why would rock ledges need to be done by forcasts. It would fairly easy for the surf lifesavers to do when they close down beaches.
With 30 years of experience i dont think this would be done to save you from yourself as you have enough experience to not fish in the conditions that are dangerous.
Either way it was only a suggestion and i dont see it happening, the powers that be would rather just close the ledges completely and i am more worried about that.

[Charlie]

One of my favorite spots is safe in a 4m swell while 20m away is a spot thats a death trap in any seas, head around to the other side of the headland you could safely fish in 8m swells , in fact the rougther the better if you want to catch a feed. I would dread the authorities having the ability to close ledges its just not a solution at all.

[tunaticer]

I support the mandatory vest as PFD1, having been washed off the rocks once by a wave in excess of 4m taller than the 1.5m that was around during that day. Had nowhere to run to with a cliff face behind me and i luckily stayed in the bulk of the wave on its retreat and did not suffer any real damages apart from scrapes and bruises. To my right another party got washed in as well and two of thier four needed medical treatment after being pulled from the seas, both with broken bones and lacerations.
I, like everyone else in the two parties was not wearing any floatation devices, but in hindsight now, an inflatable PFD1 would be just plain common sense and worthwhile.
With the unobtrusiveness of inflatable PFD's I think it should be made compulsory safety equipment for all rock, surf and boat fishing in open waters where the chances of entering the water are realistic. Even if a person does not survive a wash off, his or her body will be much more easily recovered giving sooner closure for families left behind. (a good friend lost his brother in Victorian waters two years ago and they never found the body)

[deepfried]

One of my favorite spots is safe in a 4m swell while 20m away is a spot thats a death trap in any seas, head around to the other side of the headland you could safely fish in 8m swells , in fact the rougther the better if you want to catch a feed. I would dread the authorities having the ability to close ledges its just not a solution at all.

Is your spot one of those mentioned in the report that NAGG posted the link to ? did you read the report ?.
All i am saying is maybe an easy option is to close those spots during those conditions stated in the study, not a ban on all areas up and down the coast or would it need to be done from forcasts. Eight spots claim 54% of the victims and the bulk of those occur in known sea conditions. Seems too easy to me to just close those 8 ledges during those conditions to make some impact into reducing the deaths.
Dont read too much into my comment other than what i have posted above, jesus i also fish ledges that are safe in certain conditions and i also dont want undue restrictions placed on my favourite form of fishing.

[finga]

There was an important point made in the report that Chris put the link up for.
"The behaviour of the deceased was a contributing factor for the majority of
fatalities".
What does this mean??

I also forgot all about the angel rings.
Why not have these items at all the known bad spots just in case of someone needing them.
There was only about 16% of the fatalities who could not have grabbed an angel ring.

It's still more dangerous to drive on the road though.
So if the people who make laws were concerned with saving lives then work on the roads...and police the laws they have now to save a few more people.

[TimiBoy]

We are moving towards a system where every activity of risk is no longer the responsibility of the person undertaking the activity. It seems many think it is the Government's responsibility when anything happens.

"They (the Government) should have done this, or that, or something else."

Personal responsibility is a disappearing quality, and that is not for the betterment of Man.

Personally the passing of Laws to protect people from themselves is a manifest waste of time and money, which could both be better used in areas that didn't require separating fools from their destiny. Finga put it beautifully when he said that we might as well legislate against driving in the rain. What the bloody hell is the difference? NONE.

People should start taking responsibility for their damn selves. And if they don't? Well then, they're friggin' dead.

Life's a bitch.

Tim

[Jarrah Jack]

Death is a bitch as well.

I prefer the idea of education and people taking responsibility for their own actions...

[deepfried]

Finga and timiboy,
i agree with what you both say except the natural selection part. we have to take responsibilty for our own actions and that is why i voted no for the life jackets. i get out and fish from headlands and rocks every week and understand the risks and except them but also do everything i can to minimse them and i have still had scary moments. what is not taken into account by these people putting themselves at risk though is that it also endangers those sent to rescue them and is a huge cost to the community. if a simple measure like closures can take the opportunity away from those that disregard the risks to themself and others then it may be worth considering to at least reduce the deaths a little.

[banshee]

I think what's geting caught in some throats is the wiff of 'do gooderism',there's nothing worse than being told what you should be doing by someone who doesn't do it.
On a separate note regarding south coast rocks (those around the Woolongong area),I will relay what I've been told and recount an actuall first hand occurance and use the term 'yellow raincoat brigade' as it seems to fly unopposed here.Some twenty years ago I was visiting rels in that neck of the woods (I'm originaly from there) and decided on some fishing around the Barrack Point area.After an hour or so I was approached by a resident who wanted me to sign a petition to keep people who wear yellow rain coats of the rocks,I was somewhat amused by this ad declined the request,the lady seemed noneplussed and just remarked that I would probably see what she was on about a bit later on.Sure enough about an hour later two van loads of 'the yellow rain coat brigade' arrived and systematicaly took every living creature of the rocks right down to an arms depth below the water line,women ,kids and men of all ages took everything from the tinniest welks the size of a match head to star fish and crabs of all sizes, they lined up in an Emu parrade and combed the area emptying everything into drums in the vans.When they got to my gear they simply cast it aside with no regard,I confronted the person to just be totaly ignored with no eye contact or conversation,to say I was ropable was an understatement as this dopey f@!$wit shuffled around me.Now to the second part of my point....the vast majority of people who are fishing these rocks and being swept in do not actualy have any fishing tackle in there possesion excepting an oyster knife and bag,my cousins down that way assure me that they nearly always consist of 'the yellow raincoat brigade' in entire families systematicaly pilfering the ecosystem.Something to think about.

[NAGG]

The same could be said for driving in the rain and other common causes of road accidents.
Many, many people die from accidents when they drive in conditions where they should have pulled over and waited until conditions improve.
Many, many people have died because they have had a blow-out on tyres which seemed to be in great condition.

Do we make laws to say when you can drive a car or a law to say you need blow-out proof tyres on your car??

Finga ...... no where is this the same

We have speed limits ( & some roads now have condition dependent speed limits)
We have to wear seat belts & our cars are required to be deemed safe.

I think if you look deeply enough - we are expected to drive to the conditions ......... If you were to run off the road in the rain & the police could prove you were not driving to the conditions - I'm pretty sure you would be charged ( maybe someone could verify this)

Aside from the ....... Oh we dont need more laws / rules / regulations put upon us - Is there anything else ?

Chris

[gr hilly]

if you watch 60 mins next sunday you will learn more on this subject

hilly

[NAGG]

Death is a bitch as well.

I prefer the idea of education and people taking responsibility for their own actions...


JJ ...... Its a nice sentiment , but unfortunately too few do !

Plain and simple ....... I see a lot of people talk about taking responsibility for their own actions and safety ......... and if the 55% of members of this site that dont agree with the introduction of a new regulation ........ would I be right to assume that these 55% would wear a PFD when fishing the rocks ........:huh: Afterall we are talking about the smart ones who dont wear a yellow raincoat ........ Now if these 55% here represent the smart rockfishoes - If I was to visit the nearby rock platforms to where I am staying in Sydney atm ........ I would expect about 50% of every fisherman that I see on rocks wearing a PFD .... and the others yellow raincoats :wink:

I bet ...... I would be lucky to see 5% wearing a PFD!

Chris

[Jarrah Jack]

Nagg

Its not as simple as wearing a pfd and all will be well, as I'm sure you know. You would probably get instances where people will fish places they shouldn't because of the perceived safety of the pfd. I've done a lot of game fishing off the stones and there are a lot of places, when its rough, where you just couldn't get out anyway and would die trying.

A number of people have died off my favourite spot south of Eden. In the seventies we used to tie ourselves to anchors in the rocks. They have rusted away now.

Without doubt a pfd would help but experience and education is far more important than a peice of legislation.

[gr hilly]

the big problem,' if like me i was lucky being a kid 15yrs old fishing dangerous rocks you grow up learning thinking if i get washed off ill swim to the beach or have some other plan but if you have seen 40 or more yrs like myself go past since and still enjoy rock fishing ware a VEST they do save lives and some of the ones arn't to uncomfortable.

hilly

[NAGG]

Nagg

Its not as simple as wearing a pfd and all will be well, as I'm sure you know. You would probably get instances where people will fish places they shouldn't because of the perceived safety of the pfd. I've done a lot of game fishing off the stones and there are a lot of places, when its rough, where you just couldn't get out anyway and would die trying.

A number of people have died off my favourite spot south of Eden. In the seventies we used to tie ourselves to anchors in the rocks. They have rusted away now.

Without doubt a pfd would help but experience and education is far more important than a peice of legislation.

Hi JJ

Certainly that is the case ......... I too fished locations that you couldn't get back in if you went in if any sort of sea was running - these were scary places to fish........ & involved quite long swims to where you could exit the water without getting smashed.
Rewind 20 years ...... I would have worn a Inflatable PFD had they been available - I wouldn't have thought I was bullet proof ..... just happier knowing that I had something that would allow me to float if I went in - particularly during the cooler months where Hypothermia could reduce your chances of survival - at least if you passed out you wouldn't drown.

Chris

[flathead95]

No, Because more often then not,its not drowing that kills the person but more the injures sustaned from the fall. Even if the person is to land in the water with his pfd on it hampers you're swimming ability alot and to get away from the rocks you have to go under the waves and a pfd prevents you from doing so.

[NAGG]

No, Because more often then not,its not drowing that kills the person but more the injures sustaned from the fall. Even if the person is to land in the water with his pfd on it hampers you're swimming ability alot and to get away from the rocks you have to go under the waves and a pfd prevents you from doing so.

The backwash usually keeps you off the rocks ...... & you can swim in an inflatable yolk. The injuries most often come when you try to get back onto the rocks ........ So the key is to get away from the rocks and make your way to where you can get out without being pounded - having the ability to stay afloat is critical.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that going into shock would be common and many people would not have their full faculties if faced with this life and death situation - something to consider !

Chris

[finga]

So you make a law to make people wear a life jacket when they fish off a rock.
Goodo, no worries.
Do you also make laws to prevent children from been killed on farms??
20 people under the age of 15 are killed each year on farms.
35-40% of these fatalities are drownings.
What do we do to save them?
Do we make farmers fence dams, creeks, rivers and troughs?
Do we make kids wear life jackets on farms?
The numbers seem to suggest we have to because the number is around the same or greater then deaths from fishing on the rocks.
http://www.farmsafe.org.au/index.php?article=content/for-farmers/child-safety-on-farms

[NAGG]

So you make a law to make people wear a life jacket when they fish off a rock.
Goodo, no worries.
Do you also make laws to prevent children from been killed on farms??
20 people under the age of 15 are killed each year on farms.
35-40% of these fatalities are drownings.
What do we do to save them?
Do we make farmers fence dams, creeks, rivers and troughs?
Do we make kids wear life jackets on farms?
The numbers seem to suggest we have to because the number is around the same or greater then deaths from fishing on the rocks.
http://www.farmsafe.org.au/index.php?article=content/for-farmers/child-safety-on-farms

There are lots of activities in our daily life that involve some element of danger ...... having a family involves potential danger - kids will find a way of hurting themselves or worst.
Our workplaces are often dangerous - ( being involved in sales - road travel - I consider my job as dangerous) ..... but we all try to make our lives a little less so either via our own means , employers responsibility (training / safety eqipment) or government intervention - you know that is the case!
These are not a fair comparison though are they!
Rock Fishing is a pass time ...... which can be dangerous for many reasons !

Is it such a big deal to have those that participate wear an inflatable jacket ..... i'm not suggesting the sport to banned , certification required in proficiency in swimming etc ...... Its just a simple idea to make it safer

Chris

[Jarrah Jack]

Hi NAGG

I have a natural negative response to increasing regulation of our daily lives. I'm a seventies person not a nineties where this idea that the state is responsible and should be held account for just about everything......Nanny state.

I intuitavely hate it and the idea that I could never really win an argument where lives and peoples health is at stake doesn't make me change that feeling. But I have an answer that should suit both of us and its education. It should let us both off the hook.

After education, if people want do do unsafe things and die then its their business. Experience will teach a few of us as well. Reading a memorial on a rod holder can be chilling and worked well as an education tool for me and my mates thats for sure.

My two cents mate.

Cheers

[NAGG]

Hi JJ

I'm not really one for a nanny state either ........ or being wrapped in cotton wool

education is fantastic ..... if you can do it & do it properly - but like smoking, the education does very little .......

Chris

[TimiBoy]

Chris,

You are trying to defend the indefensible. The line has already been drawn, but you want to move it further to the left. The people who fish when it is unsafe will still do so because the Law will not be enforced. Thus the only people wearing pfd's will be those who don't need to.

Law passed. Politicians vindicated. Stupid idiot unthinking unintelligent voters appeased. Nothing changed except the masses inconvenienced for nothing.

Shut up please.

Tim

[deepfried]

Kinda wondering when timiboy or finga last stepped onto a rock ledge, headland or anything resembling stone in the pursuit of a fish ????

[TimiBoy]

Kinda wondering when timiboy or finga last stepped onto a rock ledge, headland or anything resembling stone in the pursuit of a fish ????

Often enough to know when I might be out of my depth.

You?

Tim

[deepfried]

Often enough to know when I might be out of my depth.

You?

Tim

::) Tuesday and before that it was Monday and before that it was last Friday and ..... well you get the picture

[NAGG]

Chris,

You are trying to defend the indefensible. The line has already been drawn, but you want to move it further to the left. The people who fish when it is unsafe will still do so because the Law will not be enforced. Thus the only people wearing pfd's will be those who don't need to.

Law passed. Politicians vindicated. Stupid idiot unthinking unintelligent voters appeased. Nothing changed except the masses inconvenienced for nothing.

Shut up please.

Tim

Trying to defend the indefensible ....... what because you dont like laws & people that offer a viewpoint different to yours ! ......

The masses inconvenienced :-? - Hell, if you were smart enough you would be wearing an inflatable yolk anyway.

love how you signed off too ! - charming

cheers

chris

[finga]

Kinda wondering when timiboy or finga last stepped onto a rock ledge, headland or anything resembling stone in the pursuit of a fish ????
Growing up in northern NSW you tend to fish off the rocks a lot.
I grew up fishing off rock walls, rock ledges and headlands from Lennox Head to Red Rock because they were local to me.
Flat rock between Lennox and Ballina used to be a great spot to fish.
It can be a very safe spot too as people quite often go looking at the rock pools there with their toddlers but when it's dangerous, it's bloody dangerous and the crabs even hide.

My nana and pop had their house about 300-400m away from the rock walls at Evans Head and the family still retains that house.
Fishing from headlands is less then a kilometre away as the crow flies.
So I have fished of rocks all my life and still fish off rocks but I have to admit not as much as I used to because I physically cannot use the larger rods anymore.
Last time I did so was X-mas. Why?? Because I have not had the time to visit my mum and dad at Evans Head of late with our move etc etc and the physical limitations I have and the 3 hour drive to get there is a bit of a bummer too.
It was the north wall at Evans where I was referring to where you'd be nuts to fish in some weather conditions and 10-15m away it is as safe as fishing in the lounge room.
Also Snapper Rock is a favourite spot of mine. Some weather/sea conditions kind of prevent me from fishing in the spots I normally throw a line so I move around the headland to a spot that is safe to fish off.

There are 3 rock walls at Evans. The North and South wall and the Little wall which is in the river and was placed there for erosion control.
Now this little wall is as safer to fish off then the sandy beach on the opposite side of the river due to the deep, narrow channel that is very, very close to the sandy beach and the very strong current that goes through there.
The channel drops more then 6 feet in 3 feet, is no more then 20m across and all the water of the Evans river system comes in and out there.
So they bring in a law that says you need to wear a jacket to fish off the rocks. What about the more dangerous spot on the opposite side of the river where you fish off the sand??

The same applies when we fish outside.
In NSW it is law to use lifejackets to cross all bars.
Never affected us because we were already doing it for our own safety.
And it has been many, many times we have checked weather predictions for the next day, walked down to check the bar (seeing it's only 300-400m away and it's a good time to have a coffee and to wake up) and when we get to the bar in the boat we turn around and go home, swap boats and go fishing up the river instead.
Why?? Because we felt the risk outweighed the need to fish.

So when you ask when the last time I fished off a rock...well does the rock on the river bank on the Condimine count because that was Tuesday afternoon.
If you count the North wall at Evans Head or a headland then X-mas.

[finga]

I just thought of another point...
On the North wall at Evans Head I would not fish on the ocean side or the end in some weather/sea conditions because I would deem it unsafe.
The North wall at Evans Head has a walkway that goes to the end and I have often seen waves breaking well over the walkway. I mean it is a wave breaking wall...and it job is to protect the bar/river entrance from waves.
So if I have a fishing rod I'd need a lifejacket. Yep, fair enough...it's the law.
What about the person walking their pomeranian??
Do they need a life jacket too?? What about the pomeranian??
They're in just as much danger as me with a rod...actually they're probably in more danger because I've spent many years of my life watching, fishing, swimming and surfing the ocean at that same spot.
Since 1969 actually.

[finga]

Here is an interesting article about drownings in Australia.
Paragraph 51 is of particular interest.
5% of accidental drownings were classified as having been washed from rocks , all of these into the ocean. They were in two distinct groups. Fifty four were fishing from the rocks and only one of these was female. All were over the age of 15 years. The second group comprised 21 persons not fishing
So within the range of years of this study 54 persons were drowned whilst fishing whilst 21 person perished whilst not fishing.
Do we make a law for those not fishing as well??

Paragraph 52 it also states A further 36 persons were described as having drowned while fishing in tidal water so do we make laws for them as well?? The numbers are not that much lower then those fishing off rocks.

Drowning whilst fishing off rocks...........54
Drowning off rocks whilst not fishing.....21
Drowning whilst fishing in tidal waters..36
(all within the time period mentioned in the study)

So why not just make every one wear a lifejacket and be done with it??

Some good reading in that study....and it's from the Medical Journal of Australia which is a well respected journal.
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/iprs2/mackie/xxmackie/xxmackie.html#img2

[Razgo-]

perhaps it should just be certain rock areas that are declared "Life Jacket ZONES" and made compulsory. that will cover fisho's and non fisho's.

Just don't make the seaway rock wall a life jacket zone :)

russ

[Jarrah Jack]

Think we know what Finga's been up to today...:)

[NAGG]

Here is an interesting article about drownings in Australia.
Paragraph 51 is of particular interest.
5% of accidental drownings were classified as having been washed from rocks , all of these into the ocean. They were in two distinct groups. Fifty four were fishing from the rocks and only one of these was female. All were over the age of 15 years. The second group comprised 21 persons not fishing
So within the range of years of this study 54 persons were drowned whilst fishing whilst 21 person perished whilst not fishing.
Do we make a law for those not fishing as well??

Paragraph 52 it also states A further 36 persons were described as having drowned while fishing in tidal water so do we make laws for them as well?? The numbers are not that much lower then those fishing off rocks.

Drowning whilst fishing off rocks...........54
Drowning off rocks whilst not fishing.....21
Drowning whilst fishing in tidal waters..36
(all within the time period mentioned in the study)

So why not just make every one wear a lifejacket and be done with it??

Some good reading in that study....and it's from the Medical Journal of Australia which is a well respected journal.
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/iprs2/mackie/xxmackie/xxmackie.html#img2

Thanks Finga

Some interesting reading ....... yes people drown when they jump off cliffs etc , bystanders get swept in - just like they drown swimming at the beach etc ...... its undeniable - but the risk is so much higher when fishing the ocean rocks. ...... & because of that added risk - I think that having a mandatory approved PFD should be considered ( just like wearing a helmet riding a bike)


For my way of thinking - a PFD for rock fishoes makes more sense than the need for carrying $1000 worth of safety gear when venturing 2NM offshore in a boat)......... yet the boat safety gear is mandatory!

Chris

[finga]

Sorry Chris. I just don't get it.
54 people died fishing from rocks within the period covered by the study I found.
21 people died whilst at the rocks and not fishing whilst another 36 people died fishing within tidal water zones.
How can fishing from the rocks be considered that much more dangerous?
54 from rocks is not that much greater then the 36 fishing in tidal waters is it?
Isn't the legislation supposed to protect life...and isn't it worth the legislation and the inconvenience a lot of people will suffer if it saves just one life?
Is the life of a person fishing the creek the same in importance as the person fishing off a rock?
What about the person watching the person fishing off the rock??
21 of them died within that particular time frame. How do we save them??

All these deaths occurred with the people enjoying their past-time.

You can really say where these people were and what they were doing just before they drowned but the numbers are there.

If it's good enough for a law to be made for one then it's good enough for the lot in my opinion.

[finga]

Think we know what Finga's been up to today...:)
Pulling up pavers and doing some more work on the kitchen I reckon all after feeding the ponies and going to the produce shop to get some food for the pooches.
Big day today :)

Oh. Fixed an extension lead too :)

[NAGG]

Sorry Chris. I just don't get it.
54 people died fishing from rocks within the period covered by the study I found.
21 people died whilst at the rocks and not fishing whilst another 36 people died fishing within tidal water zones.
How can fishing from the rocks be considered that much more dangerous?
54 from rocks is not that much greater then the 36 fishing in tidal waters is it?
Isn't the legislation supposed to protect life...and isn't it worth the legislation and the inconvenience a lot of people will suffer if it saves just one life?
Is the life of a person fishing the creek the same in importance as the person fishing off a rock?
What about the person watching the person fishing off the rock??
21 of them died within that particular time frame. How do we save them??

All these deaths occurred with the people enjoying their past-time.

You can really say where these people were and what they were doing just before they drowned but the numbers are there.

If it's good enough for a law to be made for one then it's good enough for the lot in my opinion.

Hi Finga

standing on a rock ledge watching someone fish ...... can be just as dangerous as participating !
The fact is - People have drowned trying to save someone that has gone in . Family members not fishing have been swept to their deaths . Others have drowned while gathering shell fish etc around the rocks ....... Maybe these people should be required to wear a PFD too :-?

[banshee]

Hi Finga

standing on a rock ledge watching someone fish ...... can be just as dangerous as participating !
The fact is - People have drowned trying to save someone that has gone in . Family members not fishing have been swept to their deaths . Others have drowned while gathering shell fish etc around the rocks ....... Maybe these people should be required to wear a PFD too :-?

You can't be serious,now you want everyone to wear one........you've lost the plot matey.Not to mention your floging a dead horse,you posted the question,a majority has dissagreed.....end of story.

[PaulMark]

Trying to defend the indefensible ....... what because you dont like laws & people that offer a viewpoint different to yours ! ......

The masses inconvenienced :-? - Hell, if you were smart enough you would be wearing an inflatable yolk anyway.

love how you signed off too ! - charming

cheers

chris
Chris,come away from the "Dark Side" come back to the "Light". Never mind the indefensible,some folk are the undefendable,you know the ones "It'll never happen to me"::):P Well when it does,as me ol Mum used to say."Don't come running to me"!;) Any how be more oxygen for the rest of us.8-)
Paulo

[bugman]

Another one last night:(

[finga]

Another one last night:(
http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/news/local/news/general/fisherman-swept-to-death-at-kiama-blowhole/1843508.aspx

[theoldlegend]

Hey Naggsy old china,

Take a chill pill mate,and let it all go. Let the poll take its course.

At the end of the day, when it's all done and dusted and the cows have come home to roost, you've fallen for the old trick of having a preconceived idea that motivated you to have this poll, and your perceptions of "must having" a life jacket on when fishing the rocks may have clouded your judgement.

Very noble stuff and all that, but were you just trying to put up a post for the sake of a post? Hmmmmmmmm.

This poll has degenerated into your views versus anybody who doesn't agree with you. This is very obvious from the posts that have turned this poll into a farce.

At the moment, the "no's" are slightly in front of the "yes's", so why dont you just accept the verdict of the respondees? When does the poll close? What will you do with the results when the poll is finished?

As the pollee of the poll, you will be required to post up the results of the poll after the poll has closed and make these public. You should make constructive comments about the results. We don't want hysterics, but clear concise comments.

Hopefully, that will be the end of it. It looks like it won't to be your liking, but I'm sure you can take a teaspoon of concrete and the rest is up to you.

TOL

[finga]

Another story of Friday's death.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/05/29/2912764.htm

Makes you wonder the mentality of people when they go fishing off the rocks when the predictions were what they were and actually fish when the conditions were what they were when they got there.
Would a life jacket have saved him??
Who knows.
Should he have thought a bit better about his own safety??
Absolutely.
Due to his actions the lives of others, many others, were put at risk...Really at risk.
Why did he go fishing in the first place has to be asked before the question of why didn't he put a life jacket on was asked....

[bulldogs195461]

well said mitch,no more legislation.the government just make it more revenue raising anyway.

[NAGG]

Hey Naggsy old china,

Take a chill pill mate,and let it all go. Let the poll take its course.

At the end of the day, when it's all done and dusted and the cows have come home to roost, you've fallen for the old trick of having a preconceived idea that motivated you to have this poll, and your perceptions of "must having" a life jacket on when fishing the rocks may have clouded your judgement.

Very noble stuff and all that, but were you just trying to put up a post for the sake of a post? Hmmmmmmmm.

This poll has degenerated into your views versus anybody who doesn't agree with you. This is very obvious from the posts that have turned this poll into a farce.

At the moment, the "no's" are slightly in front of the "yes's", so why dont you just accept the verdict of the respondees? When does the poll close? What will you do with the results when the poll is finished?

As the pollee of the poll, you will be required to post up the results of the poll after the poll has closed and make these public. You should make constructive comments about the results. We don't want hysterics, but clear concise comments.

Hopefully, that will be the end of it. It looks like it won't to be your liking, but I'm sure you can take a teaspoon of concrete and the rest is up to you.

TOL

TOL ...... I have no problem excepting someones opinion - better still when they put up some good constructive reasoning / argument . To say that we just dont want / need another rule or law put on us ..... just leaves that side of the debate a little hollow IMO.
Yes .... the majority do not agree with the idea ..... but not by a overwhelming margin.
The poll was put up just to see what others feel ....... & maybe find some damning reason why not .....
Why is it that the negative side of the argument is the vocal one ....... very few have written on the positive side even though 45 have voted for the idea . Is it because they feel that they will b e shouted down:-? sometimes you just have to wonder

Chris

[Charlie]

Interesting you regard the NO voters as "stupid" and have now have a problem with those who voted YES as well.

[Razgo-]

well according to the news tonight a night time boat license is all but certain to come. and a bit on rock fisherman getting swept away will see a clamp down there as well.

Like i said you only need to ZONE the rock areas that require Life Jacket to be on.

just like green zones for no fishing there could be RED zones for PFD devices to be worn.

Not sure if i would agree to wear one for example on the seaway rockwall in the south western part.

But definitely a lot of areas that there should be PFD's worn.

I mean these rock fisherman they had on TV were using rops, ladders etc to get down on to rocks to fish off. there the places you need them for sure.

russ

[tigermullet]

A night time boat licence?????

The world really has gone nuts this time.

[NAGG]

Interesting you regard the NO voters as "stupid" and have now have a problem with those who voted YES as well.

Sorry ...... where did anyone call the "No voters" as stupid :-?

Chris

[Razgo-]

actually my bad choice of words, they said "certified" for night time. So i am guessing that means it would be like how we never used to have a need to have a VHF license but now we do. so now we will need to be certified to be able to go boating at night time.

they just said this on the news tonight but will they do it? who knows?

perhaps that will tie into all the kufuffle over navigation lights an accidents at night time.


so I am guessing we will need to be rock fishing certified too :)

i do somewhat see the sense in it though.
maybe we will get better nav marker out there now?

They also suggested that the fisherman island rock wall will now be lit up for better visibility. this all come about after the findings of that guy that got kille in 2007 hitting the wall i think it was.

russ