Would you like the Water Police to join AF to help answer you questions

[TheRealAndy]

Ladies and Gents, I have been a member of some other forums that have involved police. In my experience it is a great thing, and they will often clarifiy lots of things that you and I dont understand.

I have been in contact with the Water Police and made them aware of this forum. I personally think the Water Police do a great job, and perhaps their input here could help others to understand why they go on blitzes and how it can actually save you (and others) from getting into trouble on the water.

So what do you think? Would you like a cop to get on here and explain the rules and regs, and why they enforce them??

[murf]

I would rather be edjumicated than fined so yep

we had a cop on here a while back but I believe he was banned?

cheers Murf

[finga]

It can only create a better understanding of rules and regulations by all who read.

Thanks for the initiative in trying to get them involved.

[Damned67]

Would be a great idea in my eyes.

[gr hilly]

yes a reel good idea.
hilly

[sharkymark2]

Communication makes the world go round ;).

[White Pointer]

G'day,

We get a license to drive a boat, drive a car and haul a trailer and we fish as recreational fishers. We have to live with exclusion zones for fishing and speed and with shifting sands, wrecked coal carriers, bridge construction as well as weather.

In Queensland we all have a common identifier - our CRN with Queensland Transport. If the Police, EPA, Fisheries, MSQ would like to tell us about hazards, changes of laws, zones, etc, etc they have the means. But they don't because the revenue from fines is lucrative and effective communications isn't.

Don't put it all on the coppers. They have enforcement powers but don't control the myriad of government agencies that make the rules.

Regards,

White Pointer

[sleepygreg]

Absolutely....get em on board. We need to have our questions answered from 'the horses mouth' so to speak, rather than loose interpretations and emotional responses from people who may think they know the law, but are often misguided through not keeping up with the latest regs. (often after they have been 'done')

Greg

[tony2dogs]

It would be good to have an adopt a water cop on board so I voted yes but you'll find that if one of their members is set up as an official Ausfish member, that there will be caution at committing to 'paper' (web posting) and will probably only post a link to a newsletter / other website or selected answers to 'selected' questions. Every post would be treated as a media release. The nature of the beast. It might take 10 minutes to set up an Ausfish user but it will take their heirachy 50 million or so years to get it approved anyway.

Not any individual officers' fault, their heirachy will be calling the shots on much of the set up process and vetting of their posted replies.

There will be plenty of cops on here already (who want nothing to do with police work after hours) but would be happy to throw their 2 cents worth in without reference to their occupation.



Good idea be pleased if it works out and I hope my baited post helps.

[goanna1]

good idea!!! what about getting someone from fisheries as well. I know The guys in central queensland are very approachable

g

[Apollo]

Agree goanna. Would be good to get issues, questions, etc clarified upfront.

Steve

[Rhinoc]

It would be good to have an adopt a water cop on board so I voted yes but you'll find that if one of their members is set up as an official Ausfish member, that there will be caution at committing to 'paper' (web posting) and will probably only post a link to a newsletter / other website or selected answers to 'selected' questions. Every post would be treated as a media release. The nature of the beast. It might take 10 minutes to set up an Ausfish user but it will take their heirachy 50 million or so years to get it approved anyway.

Not any individual officers' fault, their heirachy will be calling the shots on much of the set up process and vetting of their posted replies.

There will be plenty of cops on here already (who want nothing to do with police work after hours) but would be happy to throw their 2 cents worth in without reference to their occupation.


Good idea be pleased if it works out and I hope my baited post helps.

I think you may be spot on there Tony.

Rhino...

[TheRealAndy]

It would be good to have an adopt a water cop on board so I voted yes but you'll find that if one of their members is set up as an official Ausfish member, that there will be caution at committing to 'paper' (web posting) and will probably only post a link to a newsletter / other website or selected answers to 'selected' questions. Every post would be treated as a media release. The nature of the beast. It might take 10 minutes to set up an Ausfish user but it will take their heirachy 50 million or so years to get it approved anyway.

Not any individual officers' fault, their heirachy will be calling the shots on much of the set up process and vetting of their posted replies.

There will be plenty of cops on here already (who want nothing to do with police work after hours) but would be happy to throw their 2 cents worth in without reference to their occupation.

Good idea be pleased if it works out and I hope my baited post helps.

I fully understand the situation. The cop on the other forum I used was posting with permission from his seniors and one of the conditions was that he had to remain anonomous. Fair call I guess, it cant be seen that an individual is putting his opinion foward on behalf of qld police. Its a touchy area, but hopefully the PR people at QLD Police can come up with a solution.

Goanna1, good call with fisheries too. When I get a chance I will follow up with them too.

[Noelm]

how about a slightly different approach, say there is ANOTHER category setup as (say) official bussiness and people could post questions in that area about rules and regulations and any other sort of issues that may need clarifcation and someone from the fisheries/police/maritme/whatever can view the site and answer in the correct way a short time later, not all will be straight away, but most would be within a day or so, and of course the officers involved could participate in other areas just as Joe Public, but the official area is more for "definitive answers"

[levinge]

how about a slightly different approach, say there is ANOTHER category setup as (say) official bussiness and people could post questions in that area about rules and regulations and any other sort of issues that may need clarifcation and someone from the fisheries/police/maritme/whatever can view the site and answer in the correct way a short time later, not all will be straight away, but most would be within a day or so, and of course the officers involved could participate in other areas just as Joe Public, but the official area is more for "definitive answers"

Good Idea, then it keeps all relevancies to the one sub section of the Forum. Would make it easy to track info rather than chasing it around through the different levels i.e. boating, tackle etc

[TheRealAndy]

Good Idea, then it keeps all relevancies to the one sub section of the Forum. Would make it easy to track info rather than chasing it around through the different levels i.e. boating, tackle etc

I guess we should see what QLD Police come up with first. If they are happy with it I guess we could approach Steve to create a new section.

[ssab1]

how about a slightly different approach, say there is ANOTHER category setup as (say) official bussiness and people could post questions in that area about rules and regulations and any other sort of issues that may need clarifcation and someone from the fisheries/police/maritme/whatever can view the site and answer in the correct way a short time later, not all will be straight away, but most would be within a day or so, and of course the officers involved could participate in other areas just as Joe Public, but the official area is more for "definitive answers"
thats the way, recently rang 3 police stations to get clarification on a traffic issue ( do you have to show your P plates on boat trailer??) (2 different answers!!) officers have discretionary powers, same will apply to interperting lighting on boats. cheers alex
yeah 60 yr old P plater( let my licence lapse for health reasons and paid the price , have advised my elderly mates to hold onto to theirs even if they go blind )

[Crunchy]

It's very unlkley to happen officially, possibly unofficially

[tigermullet]

Sorry, cannot agree. Put four police officers in a group and ask a question - just like economists, you're liable to get six different answers.

[Steeler]

Yep,no brainer.

Perhaps they could even moderate the real fiery threads LOL

Steeler

[ssab1]

Sorry, cannot agree. Put four police officers in a group and ask a question - just like economists, you're liable to get six different answers.
spoton thats why you have to follow the regs to the letter, has anyone seen the operational budget for the Water Police ?dont see them on the water lately except close to to home . cheers alex

[ThePinkPanther]

I worked with the Water Police for some eight years whilst Commodore with VMR Victoria Point and even getting a Liason Officer from their own ranks to attend meetings at our Unit was like pulling teeth.

NOT because they didn't want to but because 99.99% of the entire Police Service are terrified of opening their mouths on any subject due the prospect of litigation and/or "trouble" from their superiors.

I recall an incident when we raised the subject of a Skipper sleeping on his boat and having a beer (or two) that night ....................... we never ever got an answer either verbal or written to resolve the issue. The reason was NOT because they didn't know but rather were not prepared to give an opinion publicly due the above reasons.

The comment posted about an officer being banned from this forum would be 100% correct. The days of Police being able to use their intelligence, common sense and discretion are long gone. To voice an opinion on a forum would be suicide!

You only have to watch the idiot box every time an Officer is asked to answer a question or voice an opinion to see he or she is only prepared to give a "canned" response.

So would it it be great to have a Water Police Officer give advice etc. on this forum?

Dead on 100%

Will it happen - NEVER!!

As an aside I am presently a volunteer with the Qld Police - 13 years now - on a matter consequent to the Fitzgerald Enquiry and again from this angle, the above comments still pertain. I have a huge amount of respect for the cops and sadly miss the days when they wern't run by their political masters.

[Lucky_Phill]

I approached the Water Police in person last year on this very subject.

The Officer in charge stated that many of his staff were in fact members of Ausfish and various other forums.

He thought a proposal like this was a great idea, but it would never happen... why..... liability.

Although they could remain anonymous, giving advice on behalf of the water Police or any government body is not only frowned upon, but not allowed or encouraged.

Statements can be made in the public arena by certain members of the force with the consent of superiors, minister and or the media relations department.
I think it is a great idea and would certainly be encouraged by this forum. But, again, any information made public via this medium on behalf of a government department may be open to liability issues.

Jeez I hate this new touchy feeley, politically correct, welfare dependent, self promoting and down right bizarre State of affairs we find ourselves in.

I am sure there are many Police officers, fisheries officers and all sorts of government types trawling these boards, itchy fingers at the ready, but knowing they are hamstrung. bugga !!!




LP>
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[NTMID8]

A cuple of things, firstly people are correct when they say that Police are already members and you may find that they offer suggestions without saying "i am a cop and this is the law"
Secondly, if its only Qld water Police then the laws will only be for that state as each state has there own rules and regulations, so far only commonwealth law and the ARR (Australian Road Rules) are not state based.
Thirdly, there is a lot of politics behind the scene when it comes to one individual officer commenting on a question and if the law is misinterpreted (which it often is) that officer leaves himself open to law suites.

[bastard]

I agree with tiger mullet,you wouldnt be able to get a straight answer,its better off without them.

[TheRealAndy]

I approached the Water Police in person last year on this very subject.

The Officer in charge stated that many of his staff were in fact members of Ausfish and various other forums.

He thought a proposal like this was a great idea, but it would never happen... why..... liability.

Although they could remain anonymous, giving advice on behalf of the water Police or any government body is not only frowned upon, but not allowed or encouraged.

Statements can be made in the public arena by certain members of the force with the consent of superiors, minister and or the media relations department.
I think it is a great idea and would certainly be encouraged by this forum. But, again, any information made public via this medium on behalf of a government department may be open to liability issues.

Jeez I hate this new touchy feeley, politically correct, welfare dependent, self promoting and down right bizarre State of affairs we find ourselves in.

I am sure there are many Police officers, fisheries officers and all sorts of government types trawling these boards, itchy fingers at the ready, but knowing they are hamstrung. bugga !!!




LP>
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I didn't approach the water police, i contacted the PR machine!! I have heard back from them, and it was positive. Does not mean it will happen though

[tigermullet]

My comments about the water police should not be seen as slinging off at them. The law and rules and regs are pretty much subject to interpretation which remains the province of the courts and rulings by judges. The police are also, as already pointed out, hamstrung by their senior officers, public servants and politicians - which is probably best for all concerned. If not satisfied with their interpretation and we get handed an on-the-spot fine we can always challenge via the court system. Messy isn't it? That's the price of freedom.

It might be better if MSQ explained the law, rules and regs in simpler language as well as pointing out the words or meaning of Australian Standards rather than just refer to a particular Standard. And why is it that Australian Standards are kept secret unless citizens are prepared to pay a fee to view them?

[ssab1]

My comments about the water police should not be seen as slinging off at them. The law and rules and regs are pretty much subject to interpretation which remains the province of the courts and rulings by judges. The police are also, as already pointed out, hamstrung by their senior officers, public servants and politicians - which is probably best for all concerned. If not satisfied with their interpretation and we get handed an on-the-spot fine we can always challenge via the court system. Messy isn't it? That's the price of freedom.

It might be better if MSQ explained the law, rules and regs in simpler language as well as pointing out the words or meaning of Australian Standards rather than just refer to a particular Standard. And why is it that Australian Standards are kept secret unless citizens are prepared to pay a fee to view them?
your in the right paddock I dont think a lot of coppers agree with the pollies or their upper ranks but by wearing the Uniform they are bound by obedience, hence they are slowly becoming revenue collectors and loseing the respect of the general public, its sad. I remember the days when cops were 6 ft tall and justice was a swift kick in the arse(worked a treat) and the world was a safer place now... hand out fines .
cheers alex

[tigermullet]

I remember those times too. A much simpler time - and not a greenie to be seen unless it was a flock of lorikeets spotted crossing the sights of a shotgun.:cheesy:

[White Pointer]

G'day,

At the risk of hijacking this thread, are there too many enforcers with Police, DPI Fisheries, EPA, MSQ and too few support services from Government?

Now, I think the general state of boat ramps and navigation channels in the SE corner is pretty good. I think the Coast Guard and VMR organisations do a fabulous job. Not just with rescue but with education and training and advice and a great program for youth to develop skills.

But do you think that if government has a lead agency for communications and enforcement and worked closer to (a) forums like this (b) boating clubs (c) Coast Guard and VMR, it might be more effective in both enforcement and support than the current approach?

Regards,

White Pointer

[TheRealAndy]

Look, at the end of the day the cops may or may not participate here. The reason for the poll was to get an idea of how many would support the idea, just a bit of reinforcement for the PR guru's at qld police.

I personally think it would be a good thing. All laws are open to interpretation but these are the guys and gals that are trained to interpret the law, and are the ones who will book you if you dont comply. At the end of the day it comes down to common sense, and I think the police can help us to understand the law a little better in that regard.

Like I said before, I have seen it work before (motorbike forum) but the cop had to remain anonymous. He was a pretty sensible bloke and told it like it was. One of the things he said was when he stopped people was 'I didn't book you, you did. I am just writing out the ticket you asked for when you broke the rules'

[BigAllan]

It's Gotta be a good thing

[walruss]

Just to assist NTMID8 re the road rules. Whilst you are correct to a point. They are the Australian Road Rules, however that is where it ends. All states were unable to agree on all points. as a result whilst a large number of rules are Oz wide a number are not. Thus we have the ARR- QLD, ARR- Victoria etc.

Wouldn't it be so nice if the morons that allegedly create this ie politicians and the various enforcement bodies would actually be able to agree on a standard that could be used Australia wide.

Agreement within any government, should I live so long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Russ

PS I helped create the crap so have bit of insight. Looks nothing like the original versions that were submitted.

[TheRealAndy]

Just to assist NTMID8 re the road rules. Whilst you are correct to a point. They are the Australian Road Rules, however that is where it ends. All states were unable to agree on all points. as a result whilst a large number of rules are Oz wide a number are not. Thus we have the ARR- QLD, ARR- Victoria etc.

Wouldn't it be so nice if the morons that allegedly create this ie politicians and the various enforcement bodies would actually be able to agree on a standard that could be used Australia wide.

Agreement within any government, should I live so long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Russ

PS I helped create the crap so have bit of insight. Looks nothing like the original versions that were submitted.

Obviously the majority here are from QLD. But if you can get a QLD cop involved perhaps other states could follow. However, one thing boaties are privileged to is uniform laws, not just across state boundaries, but also internationally. Maritime and Aviation laws are 2 of the few laws that are common across the globe.

[timddo]

cops don't interpret the law. They just impose it and fine you.

The courts and lawyers interpret the laws

[walruss]

Interpretation is always there as to what "exactly" happened. however "discretion" is now and has always been within the consideration of the implementation of the laws.

Also remember that if you disagree with the way they impose and fine you, you have the right to appeal this via court.

If you didn't do it, you are innocent , (sorry, not guilty) right??!!

[ssab1]

Interpretation is always there as to what "exactly" happened. however "discretion" is now and has always been within the consideration of the implementation of the laws.

Also remember that if you disagree with the way they impose and fine you, you have the right to appeal this via court.

If you didn't do it, you are innocent , (sorry, not guilty) right??!!
would you take a $200 fine to court(your time and a solicitor is worth more) I personally have access to a to a free barrister and solicitor and couldnt justify the expense.In a recent incident was fined $171 because one of my P plates fell off(into the car whenI turned demister on, bloody obvious it had been fitted). rather than dispute it in court my company does not contribute to the Police Officers Journal ) saving heaps. they know that 99.9999999999999999% will not bother to take small fine to court. Cheers alex

[goat boy]

Unfortunately I find it hard to believe that an 'anonymous' copper of any sort will provide any *real* insight to any *real* question of law interpretation. As already said, police only enforce the law, lawyers and other legal sorts interpret it. Police are human and one's view of enforcement of a law may differ from another......
I'm a govt employee (...) and have been (un) fortunate enough to view govt responses to real questions of interpretion of laws etc and often find they are answered in rhetoric and (expected) beurocratical nonsense. I understand the pressure involved in someone putting their name to an official response.
I support the police in all forms and the incredibly demanding job they do. In this day and age of PC and rampant litigation, I find it hard to believe an official 'anonymous' response would give anything other than a black or white answer to anything other then a black or white question. Expect a 'red herring' to be answered in kind........

[TheRealAndy]

Unfortunately I find it hard to believe that an 'anonymous' copper of any sort will provide any *real* insight to any *real* question of law interpretation. As already said, police only enforce the law, lawyers and other legal sorts interpret it. Police are human and one's view of enforcement of a law may differ from another......
I'm a govt employee (...) and have been (un) fortunate enough to view govt responses to real questions of interpretion of laws etc and often find they are answered in rhetoric and (expected) beurocratical nonsense. I understand the pressure involved in someone putting their name to an official response.
I support the police in all forms and the incredibly demanding job they do. In this day and age of PC and rampant litigation, I find it hard to believe an official 'anonymous' response would give anything other than a black or white answer to anything other then a black or white question. Expect a 'red herring' to be answered in kind........

Take a look here: http://www.netrider.net.au/?page=askpolice this one is vic police, but the idea is the same.

[Wazz01]

It can happen, so long as the officer involved is authorised to brief or release information. Generally it will be an OIC of section that has had appropriate media training. For example in Canberra there is a spot on the local ABC each week where members of the public ring up with their questions on traffic matters. The guest is the officer in charge of traffic operations, rank of Superintendant, he has the experience and authority to answer these questions.
Perhaps it could run as a standing thread for members to pose their questions, and whenever the officer who is authorised to answer the questions can schedule a time in their week to get to them.
AF members will have to guard against unrealistic expectations to abilities of those involved to having their question answered. What I mean by this is, because the officer is committing to writing an answer, you will only get a strictly lawful response of how a law should be enforced, unfortunately plenty of people will come back with a myriad of "what if" responses trying to twist the response to fit their own circumstances. Other members will want to bag out the coppers and tell of their tale of woe and expect the responding officer to give a response that will support their "complaint", these sort of posts will not generate the good will and information that was originally intended when setting up the section and risk the whole thing falling over.
The trick will be to stop the "thread" or section turn into a bitch at the cops session.

[mod5]

I reckon give it a go Andy. Get them to sign up, you start the thread in the boating section and I will make it a sticky.



The trick will be to stop the "thread" or section turn into a bitch at the cops session.

That's my job :wink: However in saying that, the normal rules of the forum will apply.

[Wazz01]

I reckon give it a go Andy. Get them to sign up, you start the thread in the boating section and I will make it a sticky.



That's my job :wink: However in saying that, the normal rules of the forum will apply.

Oh! Ok then, carry on.:thumbsup:

[TheRealAndy]

I reckon give it a go Andy. Get them to sign up, you start the thread in the boating section and I will make it a sticky.



That's my job :wink: However in saying that, the normal rules of the forum will apply.


I have put the question to them, pointed them to this thread. Its out of my hands now! Lets hope the big bosses give it the thumbs up!

[split-shot]

A great idea, maybe we could have a dedicated chat board for all Governement departments which influence the marine environment

[Jurkyjj]

Great idea......at least we can get clear explanations to often asked questions.
My vote is for yes.

Jason.

[gawby]

I voted YES>
Graeme

[Rodpal]

it is hard and a serious amount of good view points mentioned, personally i voted yes because i would like to see it happen for the benifet of all age groups but realistically it will never happen. maybe a moderator could set up a thread and advise on out there questions so we can all discuss these topics without the handcuffs

thanks rod

[frankgrimes]

Hey fellas - My missus is a coppa(detective), and I know quite a few of the water police boys(few of them have gone from nig+sig->water police...hehe far better working environment!)..I'll give them a call and see if they're keen.

Mick

[oldboot]

As others have said I think it would be agreat thing if the governement was prepared to communicate with the public......but it isn't.

They want to " educate the public"....which does not mean provide information....it means....."produce behavoural change".

Governemnts current view on the public is "behaviour management" bassed unfortunately the police and other lowly public servants have little or no say in the matter.

As for as marine laws being standardised across the states......nothing like it.
there may be worldwide standardised "rules of the sea", but laws regarding life jackets, minimum safety equipment, requirements for regestration and licencing and a whole pile of other issues there is a great variation.

OH and don't start with fisheries legeslation.

for instance
NT.. no requirement for regestration of small recreational vessels
QLD...regestration required bassed on engine power
NSW....regestration required bassed on capable speed

QLD... flares required 2 and 2
NSW...flares required 3 and 3


It would be a great thing if government officials would come on these forums an give authorative opinion or information...even given time to get legal advice, clearance and formulate response......... but I recon the chances are very slim indeed.......about as probable as catching a world record marlin off the wello' point jetty.

cheers

[finga]

NSW rego now based on engine power.
A bit more then QLD though...