haines V15 motor to heavy?

[myusernam]

Hi all,
I have an an old haines v15 and I think the motor might be too heavy
Its a Bit different to the 445. The bow is much fuller - more volume - less swept. Probably because it was a bow rider.
anyway threw in a new floor and transom, done as a tiller steer. Was originally going to put a 50hp 2 stroke (no tilt) on but got a 60 yammie 4 stroke. have always been worried about the weight on the stern...got swayed by the yammie 60 because they're such a sweet motor. Took it for a run today, Sits a bit low in the rear. Exhaust is out of the water but not by a lot. have to watch slowing down or wave comes close to cowl. feels bum heavy. boat sits bow high like a ski boat.
I'm worried I might have to downsize.
There was no weight up the front except 20l of fuel, and the battery i had at the back was a n70 spare instead of a N50. Still, 2 blokes walk down the back and the bow is really pointing high. a 50 yammie 2 stroke (no tilt) is 84kg vs 108. even better would be a tohatsu 50 at 75kg. Dont know how much difference it will make?
Alternatively I could build and bolt a couple of pod / step type boyancy tanks on the stern either side of the motor, like a stepbelow the waterlineto increase the boyancy of the stern. Or i might just be trying to polish a turd.. Whatdya reckon?
p.s. it fealt like a weapon with the 60

[deckie]

Hiya..early into work today and already looking for distractions. :D. Noticed your post.

Its a genuine concern being that stern heavy but i'd say its fixable but a process of elimination first. All about how u have altered the weight...moving that much weight around can kill the performance of any trailerboat even a 20footer. Unsure but is that the old 60's/70's bertram/haines hull ? A pic might help us get the layout and help much more with some things to try.

Dont even bother looking at trim and bracket settings on the outboard coz there's more important things first....from how u describe it i truly think u need to be solving the onboard weight issue first...and best get onto it asap with a brand new motor to avoid $ issues. In reality the motor may even be a secondary issue from how u describe the setup.

Guessing that hull was originally rated only to about 60hp so check the plate...its possible to whack more on but check out insurance issues. Means about 85kg on the transom with perhaps 50ltres of fuel ??? plus one crank battery ???.

You say you've set it up as a tiller steer so have u just added 100kg of yourself to the rear and taken it away from up foward ?...just for starters ?? Thats a MASSIVE shift and is the hull designed for it ? Doubt it by the sounds of it. Is that hull more a fwd steering position design ?

How much do u weigh for starters ? 70kg, 120kg ? Either way what u've done is a massive weight shift from having sayyy 90kg from mid/front to down back on a 15footer...fair whack even for a 20footer. Almost doubling the weight shift because u take off one spot and add on another. Kind of makes the engine weights half irrelevant already ;D. I dont doubt another cpl of guys moving back will now make it point at the sky. How much fuel u carrying ? A 60 4stk on a 15footer should be pretty frugal so u probably dont need more than maybe 50lt at the ready...can carry some reserve up fwd. If they're portable tanks u can move it fwd as part of a weight test but make sure they're secure..u want weight down low and up the middle as much as u can but not too far fwd...can make it unsafe with a following sea and no safer than now. Best area is probably just fwd of centre up the middle to avoid changing the hull's ride too much.

Guessing tho its all irrelevent and so are the motor weight issues coz u've now plonked 100odd kegs down back and changed the entire rig...plus a heavier donk without getting the weight OFF the transom to cater for it. A more modern design hull that size would probably have a subfloor tank up the guts getting fuel wieght off the back for starters...all sorts of reasons they can handle heavier motors.

To give u a weight idea that brilliant yammie 60 4 stroke that led the market for so long is claimed around the 110kg..they're all dry weights but a yamaha mechanic told me recently that by the time a high thrust 60 4stk yammie is pushing your boat its actually about 125kg. Bit of a difference but still way less than competition until very recently. I imagine Honda and Suzuki are now ripping into yammie's sales in that class now their weights are down.

4strokes arnt necessarily the go for older hulls without a bit of fwd thinking. They are heavy by comparison and i have my suspicions some are heavier than touted in the glossy brochures. That class 60/70hp is possibly the most competitive market on earth and weight translates to performance...wouldnt surprise me if a bit of licence was taken here and there by manufacturers coz they know the first thing we do is check the weight...not much point having 10 extra hp but 40-50 extra kilo's on the back.

With AGM batteries these days its also no problem getting battery weight off the back but by the sounds its almost trivial weight also compared to getting your bum forward. Fuel or batteries can go fwd when properly planned and tested but u really need to your hull back to safe performance level FIRST.

You got a livey tank back there too ? If so there's another 40+ kilo that hull wasnt designed for.

I'm slowly doing up a glass 15footer right now and weight is always the first issue...its alright to think of a 4stk is more modern, cleaner running, less fuel etc but as an example when it boils down the best motor for this hull turns out to be a 105kg 70hp 2 stk...lighter, torquier, faster, better holeshot than a 60hp 4stk and its still June at the earliest before yammie bring out the first 70 4stk that anyone would seriously want due to weight..closest thing has been the Etec's but even they are heavyish....old technology but who the hell cares ? Even their new 70 4stk will be around 125kg and from what i understand its simply a rejigged 60 on steroids. Bit more fuel and oil with the 2stk but much cheaper to service....we need to match whats right for each hull so i hope the guy who sold u that 60stk at least suggested their 50-70 2strokes..especially being a tiller steer. Even going to the 70hp is at least 15kg lighter in reality plus 10 more horses ??...massive effective power differential for that size hull.

Rambling on to kill a bit of time but upshot is i reckon u should rethink where YOU are in the boat first before thinking motors...yes it'd be better to have a lighter motor and u may not need 60hp anyway...but even still with a 75kg motor she can still be back heavy as a tiller steer. Easier to experiment with weight distribution in flat water first before thinking about swapping the motor out already...might be easier (and cheaper) to change steering position/fuel/battery instead of thinking bouyancy tanks/new motors etc. She may go great guns with that 60 4stk if u can just get the weight distribution right. I'm guessing you currently have at the very least double the weight that hull was meant to have down back. A 50 2stk may have been enough coz even that is more grunt than the old 50 2stks.

Now i'm off for a bacon and egg roll..hope i havent made it sound too bad but she sounds a little unsafe and needs some immediate thought. So i guess my answer is if u want a tiller steer in that rig then yes its far too heavy.

[Chimo]

Your rear pod idea would work.

I have pods on my 10 ft tinny and they certainly do provide the benefits that you are looking for.

Make up some Al pods and bolt them on. Mine have a total of 70 lt ie 35 lt per side and I (100kg) can stand on either one without getting any water over the transom into the tinny. Go for a checkerplaate top and shape the outsides to the hull and fit the base so its a little say 1/2 " above the bottom, make the inside the same shape as the outside and bung at the rear.

Not sure where you are but I can suggest a guy to make them for you if your feel they may be for you.

Cheers
Chimo

[myusernam]

thanks for the reply's guys. Deckie, you're reight about the guys down the back thing...dont think it was meant to have that much weight down the back....but i'm 80 kg's and my old boy 100..even with him up the front it was still arse heavy. Thinking about selling the motor as no matter what I do (there's nothing much else at the back) it's going to sit low. I have the fuel tank right up the front already. More wight up the front would help, i.e. fuel and a big esky full of stuff... but who wants to have to counterweight a boat. no way i want it to be anything other than a tiller.

[dreemon]

The apperance of buyancy pods can be made to what you want for the visual side of it, it's the concept of simply adding float pods that will obviously support more weight, the amount of volume per pod will be what extra load it'll support, then it comes to how will the boat react with them on,

If like Chimo did, by having it up higher off the bottom by 1/2 to ? , it seems that they will help the boat at rest and get it onto the plane faster, once on the plane the pods could be out of the water and nothing at that point would change the ride so I can see the benifits with them on along with having boarding steps on either side,

Been thinking of doing the same to my boat because the rear sits a little low now and with adding a bait tank will add weight along with my kids wanting to sit at the rear more often ( 6 yr and 8 yr ) they'll only get heavier , are there any negatives to pods to be aware of ? Cheers

[savagetin]

Just some info on the Haines V15 built in the 70's, they were rated to 135hp. The motors of that time weighed 250 - 280 lb.

Tony

[Chimo]

The apperance of buyancy pods can be made to what you want for the visual side of it, it's the concept of simply adding float pods that will obviously support more weight, the amount of volume per pod will be what extra load it'll support, then it comes to how will the boat react with them on,

If like Chimo did, by having it up higher off the bottom by 1/2 to ? , it seems that they will help the boat at rest and get it onto the plane faster, once on the plane the pods could be out of the water and nothing at that point would change the ride so I can see the benifits with them on along with having boarding steps on either side,

Been thinking of doing the same to my boat because the rear sits a little low now and with adding a bait tank will add weight along with my kids wanting to sit at the rear more often ( 6 yr and 8 yr ) they'll only get heavier , are there any negatives to pods to be aware of ? Cheers

Dreemon

One negative with the ones on mine is my fault, the drain plugs are on the inside, facing the motor, and they throw some spray onto the underside of the motor at speed. they were put there as its a tinny that gets stood on its tail once in a while. This probably wouldn't be an issue with yours. Also the inside face of the pods on mine are straight up and down cf to the outside which follows the boat hull shape. Doing it again it would probably be better to duplicate the outside profile on the inside. Being instaled off the bottom ie at the heigh you would instal trim tabs seems the way to go IMHO

There seems to be no issue with turning or stopping quickly but the back floats higher when at rest so its a bit trickier getting it onto the ramp trolley on a steep ramp, need less trolly in the water when retrieving, not really an issue for you tho.

On glass you should be able to install bolts at the right positions on the al pods and just drill four holes thru the transom and bolt them on, using the appropriate sealing gunk and plates and washers on the inside.

Cheers
Chimo

[TJ Bear]

Pods on the transom of Chimo's little tinny are fine as I would imagine it is used in protected waters. Be very very carefull adding this type of pod to a boat that will be used inshore or offshore as the added boyancy in the tansom can turn a boat into a dangerous broaching nightmare in any following sea.

[bennyboy]

You need to check your static water height on the motor

When the boat is sitting at rest in the water with a normal load on board you need to measure the distance from the exhaust relief on the motor to the water level. don't know the exact measurment for this motor but it needs to be about 11cm minimum.


If the measurment is less than this water can get in the exhaust and onto your bottom cylinder. If this happend your motor is stuffed, there is no warranty and no insurance claim. If it was a new motor the Yamaha mechanic should have checked this out. If they didn't and it is too low take it back as they have installed a motor that is not suitable for the boat.

If your static water height is not enough there is a good chance your motor will go BANG!

[stevej]

those hulls had a significant engine well didn't they?
i dont think no matter what hp you put you will have issues as its just too much weight aft.

[deckie]

Just some info on the Haines V15 built in the 70's, they were rated to 135hp. The motors of that time weighed 250 - 280 lb.

Tony
THAT much ?
Fair enough.

Now this is confusing. Assuming you're right.. assuming the boat actually is a Haines V15 and rated to carry 120kg..he said he has always been worried about the weight down back.
So it was bum heavy BEFORE a 110kg motor went on it...and before changing to a tiller steer and adding weight ? He's implying the motor that came off it was lighter than the new one.

Need some pics coz it doesnt make much sense. Why would you add extra motor weight when its already bum heavy ?...then on top of that move yourself and others down back ?? If she was rated to carry that much why would it have been bum heavy beforehand without being a tiller steer



thanks for the reply's guys. Deckie, you're reight about the guys down the back thing...dont think it was meant to have that much weight down the back....but i'm 80 kg's and my old boy 100..even with him up the front it was still arse heavy. Thinking about selling the motor as no matter what I do (there's nothing much else at the back) it's going to sit low. I have the fuel tank right up the front already. More wight up the front would help, i.e. fuel and a big esky full of stuff... but who wants to have to counterweight a boat. no way i want it to be anything other than a tiller.

When u get the chance can u post a pic of the rig as its setup ?..maybe a pic of it beforehand also ? Especially the motor that came off her and old seating position coz it doesnt make much sense to me she could be bum heavy BEFORE you added weight back plus your own as a tiller steer.

You say "no way u want it to be anything other than a tiller"...why ?..fairly obvious this boat cannot handle it so whynot just enjoy the boat as it was designed ?

What was the reasoning behind knowing it was already bum heavy but deciding to make it a tiller steer as well as adding even more weight ?

If savagetin is right and she was originally rated to carry more than your new 60 4stk motor...and you've already had blokes, fuel, gear etc moved fwd and STILL bum heavy...what is it saying to you ? If rated to 135hp on a 15 footer its obvious she was meant to fly along as a hull...seating position MUST have been fair way fwd i would've thought.

No matter what u now do its unsafe....pods etc may simply make it worse. You're creating a nightmare for yourself.

Havent met anyone yet who would take an already bum heavy boat as u described then intentionally add MUCH more weight down back as well as your own. Sorry if i sound cynical but there's gotta be more to it...can u get some more info going ?

[dreemon]

Pods on the transom of Chimo's little tinny are fine as I would imagine it is used in protected waters. Be very very carefull adding this type of pod to a boat that will be used inshore or offshore as the added boyancy in the tansom can turn a boat into a dangerous broaching nightmare in any following sea.


Nearly the last thing you want is broaching ( jail time with homos the last)
last time I took my boat outside was the 2nd roughest time and my wifes 1st time outside, at the time, I told her this is normal,

thinking about what bennyboy says about "static water height" and needing to be 110 mm min or water in the engine , so if you had pods that addjusted the height at rest only would that cause any probs?

I know getting it right would be the hard part but if it's high enough it seems all would be good ? say for myusernam to find the spot it sits while looking over the back , mark the line and make small pods that will float it at rest well,

trying to find a happy medium between to high and to low ,. .

[myusernam]

deckie,
got the hul as hull only. didn't have a motor on it. concerned about stern weight because i had a feeling it might be an issue....built a large motor well to increase the aft freeboard. dont want anything other than a tiller steer because i want a dory to go through chop.

dont see how pods on either side of the motor slightly above the planing surface will affect the boat while it's on the plane. going to take it for another run and see what i think....might just get a tohatsu 50 - save quite a few kgs that way.

It's not superbad - similar to many ski boats etc. i want it for offshore work so i want it a bit more inheritly safe.

guys can anyone confirm the static water height for a yamaha 60?