Another boat collision?

[TheRealAndy]

On the Goldcoast seaway:

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26620087-952,00.html

[cormorant]

Walk away - well limp away after a accident at 20knots by each boat - lucky people .

Buy a lottery ticket and glad they are OK.

I wonder how the insurers lay blame if the Police don't lay charges?

[maztez]

Yep , there's no mention of who is in the wrong ...but looking at the damage I would guess that some speed was involved .
Just lucky that no major injuries or deaths occured .

[Marlin_Mike]

IMHO, and my opinion only, one boat looked like it had been hit on the starboard bow side, meaning maybe he didnt give way to the right??????????? just an observation. without all the evidence or being there we'll never know.
It will come down to he said/he said. there are 3 sides to it: each drivers version, and somewhere in between will lie the truth.

Mike

[Scott nthQld]

I heard this on the radio this arv on the way home from work, cops don't know what the hell happened, clear day, apparently minimal other traffic and they collide, could it be possible that for some unknown reason both skippers had taken their eyes off the water at the same time?? Seems to be the only reasonable explanation I can come up with with the info I have read/heard.

As for insurance, well, since the 'at fault' driver can't be pinpointed, I reckon it will just be a case of each skipper/owner will just have to pay their own excess, same thing that happens with cars that are damaged and the person who caused it cannot be found.

[Jeremy]

IMHO, and my opinion only, one boat looked like it had been hit on the starboard bow side, meaning maybe he didnt give way to the right


That is the way I saw it also

[TheRealAndy]

That is the way I saw it also

I cant say I have ever seen a maratime rule that says you have to give way to your right.

[Angla]

I cant say I have ever seen a maratime rule that says you have to give way to your right.


No but there is one that says you should alter course (read give way) when another vessel is approaching from the starboard side (read right)

Mind you, as they turned and faced each other then it would change to 'they should pass port to port"

Sounds like it could possibly be a no result as they were probably trying to avoid an oncoming breaking wave which could have resulted in a capsize.

What is most important here could be that someone should have been a little less impatient and waited a couple of waves so the waterway was more clear.

Charter boat, what charter boat?

Cheers
Chris

[Mr__Bean]

I cant say I have ever seen a maratime rule that says you have to give way to your right.


Not sure of the maratime rule, but here is the info from MSQ:


Lookout

Most importantly, you must keep a good lookout at all times. By
being aware of what is around you, it will be easier to see, hear
and avoid possible dangers.
In general:

• if you must give way, do it in good time and make a move that

will be obvious to other boats

• power boats have to keep out of the way of sailing and fishing

boats and those hampered by dredging and cable laying and
so on

• always follow the golden rule — ‘look to the right, give way to
the right, turn to the right and stay to the right’.



See here: http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/~/media/msqfiles/home/publications/pdf_factsheet_collision_rules.pdf

- Darren

[ozscott]

As I understand it you have to give way to boats approaching on your starboard side (an indicator of this at night is that boats on your starboard side coming towards you will be showing only or mostly their port navigation light which of course is a red light, reminding you to stop for a red light...) unless you are a sail boat under sail power (there are other exceptions etc but that is a good general rule) in which case you have right of way - but the laws say that both vessels must always do what is required to avoid a marine incident.

Cheers

[finga]

Give way to anything bigger then you is what I was learned when I was a kid and it is not hard to realise that when your in a 12' tinny you give way to everyone. (good English eh??)
Other then that I've done pretty good just by keeping away from any other bugger and failing that then the old 'red to red' approach works to oncoming boats.

[ozscott]

Finga - too true mate - giving way to the big speeding donger on the broadwater who has his eyes on the figurehead on his prow and nowhere else always works for me...(and I hardly ever go there anymore because of that factor!).

Cheers

[gr hilly]

what i did notice is how well the tinnie stud up i could't see a mark on it that was a shock
hilly

[ozscott]

Gr Hilly - me too mate. I put it down to the following - its because the tinny hit square on on its strongest parts (ie along the keel line) and it hit the bow rider in quarter side - weakest point. I also think that the sea ray bow rider is probably not made heavy like the canyon runner size or style of glass boat.

[oldboot]

I see this just about avery time there is a boat prag thread.

There are some who simply do not grasp what is important and the big difference between on water and on land.

On land we speak very strongly about "Right of way", and there are very clear and immovable issues about right of way.

On the water..we speak of "collision avoidance"....and the rules are far more complicated and quite rubbery...... but one thing is clear......all skippers are responsible to do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision regardless of if they think they have right of way or not.

There are only two situations where a skipper involved in a collision could be considered blameless.....and they are.....if his/her boat was not underway or under power......or if he/she did all that was possible to avoid the collision.

As for me... Unless the other boat shows clear intent that they are avoiding me.....I'll assume that collision avoidance is my problem.

cheers

[dreemon]

I was just thinking . . How many times have I said " That boat is comming strait at us ! does he see us or WHAT ! !" I'll try to go as far right as I can without hitting sand or a rock wall , but seems like everytime I'm on the water !

I just bought a new sounder/ gpsplotter and I found myself tring to work out all the new buttons more than normal and my mate said " theres a boat on the left", we were outside of the gold coast and it woke me up , so did this thead, the boat was 500 m + away but still, the combo unit is colour so something diff for me, and first time out with it,
aft paying $1000, it's back to paying attention :)

maybee those guys both had new toys too ?

[bigjimg]

I cant say I have ever seen a maratime rule that says you have to give way to your right.
Rule 15 Crossing Situation in Small Ships Manual.Jim

[TheRealAndy]

Rule 15 Crossing Situation in Small Ships Manual.Jim

No, it does not say give way to the right, it says

"(a) When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other."

it says, each boat should alter the course to starboard, not one boat has to give way to the right. Big difference.

[Fed]

NSW Maritime but I'd think it would be world wide rules.


Giving way

The master must continuously assess the risk of collision with other vessels and power vessels must give way to:

Sailing vessels.
Vessels approaching head on (by altering course to starboard).
Vessels approaching from the right (starboard) hand side (ie, crossing).
Vessels displaying the special lights and signals shown in this chapter.
Large vessels restricted in their manoeuvrability.
Any vessel being overtaken.
Vessels engaged in fishing activities and showing appropriate signals.A vessel drifting is deemed to be underway and has no special right of way. It is required to comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea.
Note: In a collision, all masters involved can be held responsible even if the give-way vessel does not give way, because all masters are required to exercise caution and take avoiding action if the other vessel does not. Do not create a dangerous situation by forcing your right of way. Always keep a safe distance off other vessels so the vessel can be stopped or manoeuvred to avoid any sudden danger.The faster the speed, the greater the safe distance must be.When altering course make your intentions clear to others as early as possible.

[bigjimg]

No, it does not say give way to the right, it says

"(a) When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other."

it says, each boat should alter the course to starboard, not one boat has to give way to the right. Big difference.
That is for headon situations re 'reciprocal courses' that both vesels alter course to starboard.Rule 15 When two power driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision,the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall,if the cicumstances of the case admit,avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel.This means give way to the right, it's a pretty clear rule ,if you have a boat licence and don't know this rule then god help us.Jim

[tigermullet]

I wonder why the meaning of the word, 'reciprocal, has to be explained to holders of boat licences? Or why the shortened version of giving way cannot be known as, "give way to the right".

Are people nodding off to sleep when these things are being taught on their boat licence course?

Being a heathen I don't want to go all religious on you, folks but..., "Jesus wept"

[bigjimg]

Was down the broadwater over the weekend and can only say HOW THE HELL DOES ANYONE ENJOY THIER BOATING IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD.What complete and utter kaos.How there are not regular deaths here is a total miracle.Went to Wavebreak Island for a dip jet skis carving up every available piece of water,no regard for rules.Sunday headed out the Seaway for a troll glad to get some space,no luck,then back into the washing machine they call the Broadwater ,literally had to stop and wait to enter the channel,once again jetskis showing scant regard for rules.Not for this black duck,will be some time before I do that again.Jim

[finga]

Jim, I said that about 7 years ago.
I took the little boat down to the Pin and never again on a public holiday.
I scared myself pooless.
It would be an ideal time for a blitz I reckon.

[TheRealAndy]

I wonder why the meaning of the word, 'reciprocal, has to be explained to holders of boat licences? Or why the shortened version of giving way cannot be known as, "give way to the right".

Are people nodding off to sleep when these things are being taught on their boat licence course?

Being a heathen I don't want to go all religious on you, folks but..., "Jesus wept"

Becuase its legislated. There is no rule that says "give way to your right", so therefore you cannot teach it. Its nothing like driving a car on marked roads, so why teach it that way?

Reciprocal these days has little meaning to those who have only ever navigated by GPS. Once upon a time when people use charts and compasses the meaning would have been very important. I think its mad that they dont teach more compass work in these courses.

[ozscott]

I recall years ago doing my power boat license test and in the handbook from the Dept Transport they gave an example of a question with boat A going north and boat B going west and converging on Boat A...the Q was which boat has to slow and yield right of way and the answer of course was Boat A. It used to be taught that way then, but I dont know about now. Archie at Archies Boat Training Centre also taught it as a give way to the right rule but when approaching in OPPOSITE directions both boats had to move to their starboard side to avoid a collision - ie the opposite to driving on our roads.

Cheers

[Dodgy_Back]

Big Jim and Finga have it right.
The Gold Coast Broadwater is a terrible place on weekends and public holidays.
But only after around 8 am after that all the nuts come out.
While holidaying at South Straddy over Christmas I saw plenty of boaties that should be saying a prayer of thanks to the God of High Tide, I saw plenty of boats tearing across sand banks that are high and dry on a low tide, But only saw 1 cruiser stuck, heard that he stayed there for 2 and a half days.

there is a lot of nuts down there and the tour boats aren't immune from being called nuts either.

But mid week the broadwater is GREAT.
Very surprised that we don't hear of more accidents

[tigermullet]

Becuase its legislated. There is no rule that says "give way to your right", so therefore you cannot teach it. Its nothing like driving a car on marked roads, so why teach it that way?

Reciprocal these days has little meaning to those who have only ever navigated by GPS. Once upon a time when people use charts and compasses the meaning would have been very important. I think its mad that they dont teach more compass work in these courses.

I haven't any answer to your remarks on the rule of giving way to the right (starboard). MSQ have it very clearly marked out in their "collision rules".

Nor can I fathom your reasoning of why the meaning of the word "Reciprocal" seems to be misunderstood. A compass or GPS is not needed - how about a dictionary?

However, I agree with your remarks about teaching more of compass and charts.

[dreemon]

Was down the broadwater over the weekend and can only say HOW THE HELL DOES ANYONE ENJOY THIER BOATING IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD.What complete and utter kaos.How there are not regular deaths here is a total miracle.Went to Wavebreak Island for a dip jet skis carving up every available piece of water,no regard for rules.Sunday headed out the Seaway for a troll glad to get some space,no luck,then back into the washing machine they call the Broadwater ,literally had to stop and wait to enter the channel,once again jetskis showing scant regard for rules.Not for this black duck,will be some time before I do that again.Jim


It's funny cause it's true, my wife calls it the hairry highway and you do need to sit there stopped before you find a reasonable gap to squeeze in,

it's hard to find a shop that will fit brakes to boats :P

[TheRealAndy]

I haven't any answer to your remarks on the rule of giving way to the right (starboard). MSQ have it very clearly marked out in their "collision rules".


An excellent site for the colregs is here: http://www.stormy.ca/marine/colregs/

The colregs are adopted by every state goverment in australia as legislation, and I would be suprised if its not mention in some federal legislation as well.

The nautical term is starboard, not right. The legislation states

"When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel."

It does not say "Give way to your right". On a boat, if you are called by a ship for example, they will say starboard, not right. It is most important that people understand this. The reason, its international, ie not language specific.

Anal, yes I am;D But there is a good reason for that.




Nor can I fathom your reasoning of why the meaning of the word "Reciprocal" seems to be misunderstood. A compass or GPS is not needed - how about a dictionary?


As quoted from a dictionary:

Navigation. bearing in a direction 180° to a given direction; back.

Ok, fairly simple. I was just saying that a lot of people would not understand the word. But having grown up around sailers that taught me map and compass work its second nature to me.



However, I agree with your remarks about teaching more of compass and charts.

Yup, anything electronic will fail when you least expect it, and probably when you want it the most!!

[tigermullet]

Ok, it's starboard not right and I will stop referring to the bow as the pointy end.;D

[bigjimg]

I'm glad we all navigated through that one successfully.Chortle chortle.Jim

[tigermullet]

On balance, I would rather have a stickler for the word and intent of the legislation heading toward me in a boat rather than someone who is as slack as some of the examples shown in this thread.

I haven't been to the Gold Coast on a weekend for years - after reading the reports, it might be wise to stay away when the idiots come out to play.;D

[bigjimg]

Yes be as it may that the word RIGHT is not used as such in this instance it still does not take away the fact that you give way to a vessel approaching from your starboard side.Call it what you will my right arm is on my starboard side.Jim

[tigermullet]

Yep, I agree. A friend of mine goes all nautical when he is on board and insists that I say, "The aft deck" rather than, "I am heading for the back deck (or blunt end)"

And he wonders why I won't let him wear the captain's hat.;D

[oldboot]

I can see the point that would be argued by anybody pedantic... that marine language should be used for a variety of reasons...

1 is to remind people that the rules are different to similar rules on the road

and

2 there are many cases when the skipper is not facing the front of the boat and it is common for a boat to be traveling other than in a forward direction for considerable distances.

so saying port and starboard leaves no question how it relates.

As for people knowing the rules......there are people who don't even know which side of the channel they are suposed to drive on.

I was going out the channel at wello one day...keeping to the starboard ( right) ...and met a boat comming in.. keeping to the Port (left).......the skipper swore and cursed at me as he passed......as if I was on the wrong side of the road....what else does this bloke not know.

don't get me started about jet skis...... but at least they have rules that apply, and they do have some sort of controll.... how about wind surfers or worse... kite surfers

I think it is very important to remind people that the rules of the sea may be in some way similar to the road rules...... but in a lot of cases very different.

Part of that is to use the right language... because the language has precise meaning and better conveys the attitude and practice.

words like.... risk of collision... keep out of the way... avoid crossing ahead... say so much more than comparitive road bassed language.

The concept of right of way and giving way... is far more at home contained within a defined road, with building alignments, painted lines and all manner of trafic signals and signs.

on the road you must drive as near as practical to the left, within marked lines and stopping is a well defined concept.... and vehicles for the most part travel forwards.

on the water as long as you keep out of other peoples way you can generaly navigate anywhere on the surface of the water.....the only way to actually stop a boat is to fix it to something other than the surface it is traveling on......even then you cant guarantee it will remain stationary in any sort of short order.... generaly boats have no brakes......and so on.

The international language of marine regulations I guarantee has been argued loud and long to give what we have....and I believe it is important that we understand it and use it.

cheers

[finga]

No point in arguing the letter of the laws/rules/regulations if there is nobody to enforce them and Australia Day or Easter are prime examples of the lawless nature of boating in SE Queensland.
Might as well have Raphertys rules.

[Jeremy]

Not sure of the maratime rule, but here is the info from MSQ:


Lookout
Most importantly, you must keep a good lookout at all times. By
being aware of what is around you, it will be easier to see, hear
and avoid possible dangers.
In general:
• if you must give way, do it in good time and make a move that
will be obvious to other boats
• power boats have to keep out of the way of sailing and fishing
boats and those hampered by dredging and cable laying and
so on
• always follow the golden rule — ‘look to the right, give way to
the right, turn to the right and stay to the right’.



See here: http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/~/media/msqfiles/home/publications/pdf_factsheet_collision_rules.pdf

- Darren

PMSL! Andy, aren't you in VMR or something? You haven't seen this? Even better, would you give way to a boat heading on a converging course to yours if they were on your right?

[Jeremy]

"When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel."


However anal you may like to be, in simplistic lay terms, this has the exact same meaning as 'GIVE WAY TO THE RIGHT'

If I am wrong and there is a difference in how your description and my description would be applied on the water, you might like to explain.

[Angla]

This is all ok when talking amongst seafaring persons who understand this terminology. What about the di(%heads who are out there with their weetbix licenses? I wonder what they would understand.
I tend to convert starboard to right and port to left, in my head and words like recipocal could mean less to me than someone approaching from the opposite direction.
I tend to keep a peeled eye lookout for any other vessel in my vicinity that may be on collision course with my vessel, and act appropriately as the regulations state.
I also have a hand held air horn for those times that someone gets too close

Cheers
Chris

[bigjimg]

Ah the joys of boating.Was trolling out at Hutchies yesterday,on a course heading directly south,had a game boat flybridge number on a westerly course on my portside and he drove straight across my bow.Now I could have said to myself "stuff you china say goodbye to your spread"but I pulled back on the throttle and turned to starboard and he passed without incedent.Luckilly I was in a forgiving mood,and we all continued to enjoy ourselves.Never assume anybody is going too give way and always be ready to take evasive action.Just because you are trolling does not exonerate you from the rules.Jim