Nav light position help

[yellahunter]

Hey guys,

im trying to install Nav lights on my tinny and just cant decide where to screw them in, can someone give me a tip on the best position.

any info appreciated,

il include a pic of my boat to show what we are dealing with

[geoffmck]

Hey guys,

im trying to install Nav lights on my tinny and just cant decide where to screw them in, can someone give me a tip on the best position.

any info appreciated,

il include a pic of my boat to show what we are dealing with

I suggest that you screw the port and starboard lights directly to the hull just under the coaming rail and just forward of where the foredeck finishes so you can hide all the wiring under the foredeck. The white light needs to be visible all round and higher than the port and starboard lights so I suggest you mount that on a removable pole at least 1 to 1.5 metres high somehere near the stern so it does not interfere with your vision. Install a plug and socket arrangement so you can plug it in when needed. I have mucked around with permananet type folding poles in the past, similar to folding aerial mounts, but the look crappy and for the amount of times I actually use the lights a removable pole is a better option. Just custom the length so you can stow it easily in side pockets etc. when not in use. You could make a pole the same diameter as those plug in bait boats so you can just stick it in a rod holder when required. I am just about to set mine up like this in my new tinny. Hope this helps.

[yellahunter]

thanks Geoff,

all done and dusted, put em just where you said,
looks good, just hard to drill into your pride and joy in fear or ruining it haha

[bennyboy]

Just be careful where you mount your nav lights, from the sounds of above you have mounted them in an unsuitable position
http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/~/media/msqfiles/home/safety/navigation-lights/pdf_nmsc_brochure_tips_installing_nav_lights.pdf

The nav lights must be mounted paralell to the centreline of the boat. If you have mounted them where the bow starts to taper (they are angeling inwards) in they are not suitable. If you have mounted them under the gunwhale they are also more than likley unsuitable.

A huge proportion of boat out there have them in unsuitable positions.

[Zooter]

Yup benny is right but at the end of the day Something is better than nothing,

No worse than the guys that have mounted them to there consoles, especially the side connies!

[bennyboy]

Yup benny is right but at the end of the day Something is better than nothing,

No worse than the guys that have mounted them to there consoles, especially the side connies!

A centre console as long as the lights are at a height where they are visable above the gunwhale is perfectly fine. A much better option than below the gunwhale which restricts viewing from above such a flybridge or ship.

[White Pointer]

G'day,

In tiller steer boats like yours the lights are better being removable. Your anchor light is probably a plug in type on a post and the navigation lights should be the same but with shields on the inboard side and shaped to ensure you don't have the light in your eyes from the helm.

Hope you can use the freshly drilled holes to adapt the position.

Regards,

White Pointer

[finga]

The gunwhale stands out from the side of the boat where he wants to mount the lights say.....maximum 40mm.
The lights are...say minimum 30mm in depth. So the lights would be a maximum of 10mm behind the vertical plane from the gunwale
Gees you'd have to have a really high fly bridge or ship to have the gunwale hide the lights. It'll have to be really close by too...like Jessica Watkins close. Strangely they do not mention viewing angles off the horizontal plane in the regulations.

Mass produced boats of the style talked about here have the lights just below the gunwale and in the position indicated and they have not been sued yet otherwise they would have been moved.

If nitty picking comes into play how many boats have them wired to a recognised code and use a white wire as an active and black as a return or have them protected against possible damage?

If the the worst comes to worst all you'll need to do, if you mount the lights were you want too, is to mount them on a tapered block. That way the angles of the beams would be better.

Has anyone actually measured the operating angles of their navigation lights?
To get the 112.5 degree blocks for the navigation lights would be very, very rare indeed. I'd actually go as far as to say it would be a fluke if it occurred on any pleasure craft.

As for the centre consul example...what happens if someone stands to the side of the consul (which happens all the time)? The lights would be obscured to a degree so that position would be rendered illegal too.
How many have had their lights checked by the authorities?
How many have been booked for illegal light positions (when they have been as close to complying as yellahunter boat will be)??
How many people have been booked for having no lights...period??

Good on ya yellahunter for bunging the lights on.

[finga]

Does anybody know how they came up with the magical 225 degree beam for navigational lights?
Or is it like the railway gauges or the size of the booster tanks on the space shuttle? Derived from horse bums.

[bennyboy]

Yes great for having Nav lights, but a simple google search shows the Maritime safety Queensland guidelines on their position. I think this would be the first point of call rather than someone giving advice that is incorect.

How many people have been booked, quite a number, the boats we sell previously had the nav light plates incorperated in the bow rails and the plates angled in slightly. several years ago we had 2 customers booked in the one weekend for this (same officer I imagine). We paid their fines as they were new boats and the manufacturer has changed the position.

If your going to do it do it properly

[finga]

Yes great for having Nav lights, but a simple google search shows the Maritime safety Queensland guidelines on their position. I think this would be the first point of call rather than someone giving advice that is incorect.

How many people have been booked, quite a number, the boats we sell previously had the nav light plates incorperated in the bow rails and the plates angled in slightly. several years ago we had 2 customers booked in the one weekend for this (same officer I imagine). We paid their fines as they were new boats and the manufacturer has changed the position.

If your going to do it do it properly
So how do they measure the angle not to be 225 degrees when the boat is on the water at night??

[bennyboy]

The mounting of the nav lights must be paralell to the centerline (keel) of the boat.
When this is done the window on the nav lights will allow for the correct angle of viewing.
You would hope that the manufacturers of the lights have the correct size window on the lights

[bennyboy]

Does anybody know how they came up with the magical 225 degree beam for navigational lights?
Or is it like the railway gauges or the size of the booster tanks on the space shuttle? Derived from horse bums.

The 225 degree angle will allow you to see a boat if it is moving potentially in your direction.
If you can't see the nav lights you will only see the anchor light and assume that the boat is stationary or moving away from you.

If you mount the lights angled in, giving you less visability your boat could be moving across another boat's path and with only the Anchor light visable they could assume you were stationary

Do people know how to correctly use their lights? About the same number that know the correct mounting of them. I was out a Palm Beach reef on Saturday at 4am and there would have been 30 boats sitting their anchored up with their nav lights on. Only about 3 boats were correct in only having their anchor light on

[finga]

So why 225 degrees?? Why not 230 or 270 degrees??

I'm not arguing the rules just the practicality in the policing of the rules.
They're flat out checking lifejackets and v-sheets and if the boats have lights at all let alone checking what angle the nav lights are working at.

So where the people checked in the daytime or night?
Where they doing something stupid to draw the attention of the wollopers?
What was the fine worth??

Yes, agreed that some angles of mounting are ridiculous and stick out like a dog's doodle but your telling me that they can tell the difference of 1-3 degrees in mounting angle to the central axis of the boat?? (where it was suggested to mount was just aft of the casting deck. This looks to be pretty straight to me and pretty parallel the the centre line of the boat).
How do they know that the base of the light has not been altered to cater for the angle offset?
So do they check to see if the wiring is done to code as well?
Do they also check the lighting intensity of the light too?? There are regulations for that as well.

So where would you blokes mount fixed navigation lights on this boat to be legal??
He has asked where to mount them...so where can he mount them??
Remember Yellahunter wants permanently mounted ones. IMO removable ones are just a pain in the butt.

Can you fella's actually show me pictures of boats with what you consider to be legally positioned navigational lights..If you can I reckon I could find something wrong with them.

When push comes to shove.....If your that close to a pleasure craft to have to worry about the angles of light coming from the nav. lights of pleasure boat is going to be the determining factor of deciding if that pleasure boat is going away or coming closer or anchored (when an anchor light is seen) then maybe you should be slowing down a bit anyways to avoid a collision.

There would be potentially only one spot to mount lights on most modern boats then as they are generally tapered from stem to stern.

Gees...if you get that nick picky I reckon I could find defects in the Police boat setups.

I'd like to know where they get the nav lights should be wired in white wire. The standards I have all say grey.

Hey yellahunter...if your concerned about mounting angles then I'll make you a couple of tapered plates to get the light mounted in the spot you like so they're in line with the centre axis of the boat.

Or how about simply mounting the navigation lights down the stern near the rego label....Is there anything wrong with that spot or do we have to get the straight edges out, the laser line generators and protractors??
There's no rule for where they have to mounted lengthwise on a boat is there??

[bennyboy]

Finga, I think you will find that the 225 degree mounting of the lights is an international maritime standard, it's not just some pen pusher in a Brisbane city office making it up.

If you have nav lights mounted on a boat you can be fined day or night on the water if they are mounted incorectly. Doesn't matter how they are wired up as long as they work at night when required. Hell I imagine you could have them blu-tacked onto the boat and not even wired up but if they are sitting in the wrong position you can be fined at lunchtime. Same as a car, you can be fined during the day if your headlights don't work if the copper decides to check them.

It's a very important safety issue and the rule is there for good reason

[finga]

So instead of saying no you cannot do that where can he mount his lights??
Simple question.
Are the two locations I have picked correct or incorrect?? If they are incorrect...why??

Again...if you can show me some pictures of lights you deem to be correctly installed I reckon I could fault them...any boat at all.

You can also get booked for having an insecure load for anything in the boat not tied down with a rated restraint. The electric motor on the front is a prime example or anything on the floor like a fuel tank or battery box. But the chances are very minimal for this to happen. Realities come into play.

The question of the 225 degrees I asked was WHERE did it come from originally not from what standard. I gave an example of the standard gauge railway was derived from horse butts...how did they come up with 225 degrees instead of 270 degrees??

So if the lights are on the boat in an position that the whollopers deem incorrect even if they are not in use (and you get booked).
What do they say about removable navigational lights in a box in the boat. They are incorrectly positioned (seeing they're in a box) and they could be used?? Realities come into play.

[oldboot]

How any of the possitioning is achieved the regulators realy dont care...its up to you to ensure your boat is compliant.

there are lots of boats that have been built with no thaught to such compliance issues.

The reason for the specification IS so you can determine where you are in relationship to another vessel at night
If you see red AND green, you are in deep shirt because the bugger is heading straight for you.
If you see red you should be givving way and either heaving to or altering course to starbord.......if you see red......you might expect the other to give way......as you see the light pattern change you know exactly where you are in relationship with the other boat.

BUT only if their lights are properly fitted.
The basic detail be found in the boating guide and the tide book.....if you want the detail chapter and verse it is in the small ships manual.

section A annex I


All angles and planes are measured in relation to a vertical plane running thru the centerline of the boat.

OK for starters the red and green light (according to the specs) must be mounted above the hull ( gunwal).

Almost all of these red and green lights.. show a specified slot of light thru the112.5deg arc... unlike indicators and tail lights on cars

Almost all red and green lights must have their mounting faces paralell to the centerline plane.......If they do not they wont show the correct pattern

If they are mounted on the hull of most boats at least some of the pattern will be pointing at the sky or the water... and the correct arc will not be displayed

The 225 deg thing is hundreds of years old but my expectation is that it represents one compass sector astern of directly abeam or some such and it has been rounded for convienience...
.remember most seamen in the age of sail were marginaly literate and numerate and it was all halves and quarters, related to the compass.

the all round white...if you are able and chose to use only 1 all round white lighet in stead of a full 3 light rig ( bow, stern, and anchor) must be at least 1 meter above the sidelights and visable all round ( unobstructed)

I know a very large portion of boats are not compliant.........some day a copper or the government will get a bee in their bonnet and jump on this stuff heavily.....and quite rightly so.

Next time there is a night time boat prang, we can expect it to become an issue.

serioulsy non of this is hard....you just have to read the specs and figure a way of doing it.

Oh BTW the coppers are out there looking at boats.......I havd a land bassed copper do a rego check on my boat and trailer last evening while it was in the rigging area at wello.


cheers

[Wahoo]

sorry for the hijack Ben



Oldboot, doing a bit of wiring on the boat now, can i wire up the all round light on top of my hardtop to the nav lights so its on one switch???

cheers
Daz

[finga]

So...ARE THE TWO SPOTS I OUTLINED SUITABLE OR NOT??
Gees...a simple question.

If you want to get technical....
For sidelights...they must maintain their required minimum intensity in a vertical sector from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal. They must also maintain at least 60 percent of their minimum required intensity from 7.5 degrees above to 7.5 degrees below the horizontal.
And as Oldboot has mentioned...sidelights must be installed above the uppermost continuous deck. But this does not necessarily mean above the gunwale.

And for those who said it does not really matter if the all round white light is not on the centre line of the boat well think again. It can be BUT only under certain conditions ie....For vessels less than 12 meters in length, the masthead or all-round light may be displaced from the fore and aft centerline providing that the sidelights are contained within a common fixture and mounted on the vessel's fore and aft centerline.....so if you have nav. lights on each side of your boat you cannot use an all round white light that is off the centre line of your boat.

So is there any pictures of your boats fella's?? Because I am going to find fault.

[finga]

sorry for the hijack Ben



Oldboot, doing a bit of wiring on the boat now, can i wire up the all round light on top of my hardtop to the nav lights so its on one switch???

cheers
Daz
Gidday Daz...
I'm not Oldboot but I think I can answer your question.
Yes, yes you can BUT the all round white light has to also be able to be switched on as per regs. ie when your anchored.
Page 3 here tells you all about it http://www.nmsc.gov.au/media/images/NMSC_nav_lights_A5_bro_v3.pdf

[Wahoo]

Gidday Daz...
I'm not Oldboot but I think I can answer your question.
Yes, yes you can BUT the all round white light has to also be able to be switched on as per regs. ie when your anchored.
Page 3 here tells you all about it http://www.nmsc.gov.au/media/images/NMSC_nav_lights_A5_bro_v3.pdf

Thanks Scott, yes i should of said others as well..............the nav lights are always on at night, thanks for the link i shell have a read

cheers

Daz

[finga]

Thanks Scott, yes i should of said others as well..............the nav lights are always on at night, thanks for the link i shell have a read

cheers

Daz
Mate...the scenario only holds for the running lights. Your red and green should not be on at anchor. But you'll read that in the booklet :)

As a side note...Can you use a blinking white light as well as your all round white light whilst at anchor??

[oldboot]

there are not may power baots that I have seen where the hull continues above the gunwal.

the uppermost continuous deck is written for ships

the words used in another portion are "above the hull".

Thats the problem with the nav regs...you have to real all of the it or you miss bits.

as for side lights...(red & green) they must be switched seperately from the all round white.

side lights should be lit only when underway.

As for flashing white lights....there is s section that specificaly forbids the display flashing or rotating lights of any discription except for special circumstances.
one being ferries and only while in the brisbane river
the other being rowing sculls and only on the brisbane river.

If anybody can show me regs that permit a blinking light I'd like to know about it.

the reason is that it may be mistaken for a navigational aid.

ARRRGH the authorities realy do need to publish this in a complete and straight forwarly worded form.

I don't blame anybody for a misunderstanding...what need to be done is a lot simpler than the way it is written in the regs.

cheers

[bennyboy]

If anyone wants to make about $15 before the idea get's ripped off by some manufacturer in china there is a market for nav lights that are mounted on a horizontal (flat) surface but the nav lights are positioned vertically as required.

At present there are only side mounted lights available meaning you have to get a plate attached to the foredeck or gunwhale of the boat to mount the lights on.

With a flat mounted light (flat mount with the nav light on the side) you could just attach to the foredeck and it would mean alot less incorectly positioned lights such as the original post.

I have gone through all the chandlery suppliers catalogues and there is no such product. Unfortunatley if you tried to produce it I'm sure the idea would get pinched as soon as it got on the shelves. If anyone wants to produce them they can give me a carton of beer for the idea

[oldboot]

there are bicolour and tricolour fixtures available that can be mounted on a mast or foredeck.

Tricolours are only permitted in certain circumstances ( sail boats).

But as long as it isnt obstructed a bicolour fixture is permissable.(to my knoweledge)... the problem is that it has to me mounted on centere and that is often a problem with anchor ropes and stuff.

cheers

[finga]

If anyone wants to make about $15 before the idea get's ripped off by some manufacturer in china there is a market for nav lights that are mounted on a horizontal (flat) surface but the nav lights are positioned vertically as required.

At present there are only side mounted lights available meaning you have to get a plate attached to the foredeck or gunwhale of the boat to mount the lights on.

With a flat mounted light (flat mount with the nav light on the side) you could just attach to the foredeck and it would mean alot less incorectly positioned lights such as the original post.

I have gone through all the chandlery suppliers catalogues and there is no such product. Unfortunatley if you tried to produce it I'm sure the idea would get pinched as soon as it got on the shelves. If anyone wants to produce them they can give me a carton of beer for the idea
You mean like these
http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/attwood/combined-navigation-light-22400-53819.html
or these
http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/osculati/combined-navigation-light-23340-103057.html
or these
http://gator49.hostgator.com/~zeromyst/ecatalog/product_info.php?products_id=879 (http://gator49.hostgator.com/%7Ezeromyst/ecatalog/product_info.php?products_id=879)
Or maybe this from Whitworths
http://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=54355&intAbsolutePage=1

Anyways....Are the locations of the lights I have suggested OK or not for Yellahunters boat??
If not why??

As for the flashing white light...all to do with light houses. You don't want people to think your a light house do you??



as for side lights...(red & green) they must be switched seperately from the all round white. Where is this said??

side lights should be lit only when underway.


You might to want to explain that better because you can switch the port and starboard lights together with the all round white light (ie all the running lights) on the one switch as long as you are able to switch on the all round white light whilst at anchor.
It is a preferred method of switching instead of using one switch to operate the port and starboard sidelights and another switch to operate the all round white sucker.
Page 3 here tells some of the story but even that conflicts with international standards in saying the lights should be wired in white wire but the international standard is grey
http://www.nmsc.gov.au/media/images/NMSC_nav_lights_A5_bro_v3.pdf


I reckon you fella's should go to the boat ramps, boat yards and boat manufacturers to tell everyone the error of their ways and to get their lights installed correctly before they go to hell for the sins they have committed.
I love to see some pictures of your boats so I can pick them to pieces in regards to how the lights are installed.

[oldboot]

Have we had a bad day Finga.

Someone has asked about the correct way to fit lights to their boat.

I am gob smacked at how slap happy the whole rectreational boating community is about lights on boats.

I cant believe how many people are trying to do the minimum possible or trying to push the rules as far as they can... rather than doing their best to achieve a proper result

It simply would not be tolerated on our roads

As far as fitting the red and green near the stern.... while I cant find any specific prohibition (for now)......I don't think it is a clever idea....and I think there would be problems displaying the correct pattern......as the body of the boat would obscure both lights in the dead ahead possition................ it is mostly expected that the red and green will be on the front half of the boat unless there is a cabin or superstructure on the rear half of the boat.

as far as seperately switching the riding lights and the white light......arent you getting a bit picky there.....the bottom line is that you must be able to run the all round white and not the red & green when not underway..........if that isnt a seperate switch in most peoples minds I don't know what is.just be thankfull that they allow us to run one single all round white and we dont have to have bow, stern, all round AND red & green

Hell my boat isnt 100% compliant...... but its better than it was when I got it........ and it shows the correct pattern...at the correct distance..........when I move the red and green.....there will be 1 meter height difference with the all round white.....I need an extra 150mm .and it will be 100%.

Don't worry..when I was shopping for a new boat.........I told more than one salesman that the lights on the boat in question were not compliant.

They may not go to hell for their sins...... but they may get involved in an accident or or get Zipped by the rozzers...........so far I have had someone in uniform give me a boat inspection of some form 3 times in under 2 years.

You can do what you like... I'll be as compliant as I can... and encouracging others likewise

cheers

[geoffmck]

Finga, I think you will find that the 225 degree mounting of the lights is an international maritime standard, it's not just some pen pusher in a Brisbane city office making it up.

If you have nav lights mounted on a boat you can be fined day or night on the water if they are mounted incorectly. Doesn't matter how they are wired up as long as they work at night when required. Hell I imagine you could have them blu-tacked onto the boat and not even wired up but if they are sitting in the wrong position you can be fined at lunchtime. Same as a car, you can be fined during the day if your headlights don't work if the copper decides to check them.

It's a very important safety issue and the rule is there for good reason

Can you really be fined during the day?
I thought the only offence that could be charged would be failure to properly display navigation lights. E.g. they must be in use at night?
What offence could they fine you for during the day?

[PinHead]

Have we had a bad day Finga.

Someone has asked about the correct way to fit lights to their boat.

I am gob smacked at how slap happy the whole rectreational boating community is about lights on boats.

I cant believe how many people are trying to do the minimum possible or trying to push the rules as far as they can... rather than doing their best to achieve a proper result

It simply would not be tolerated on our roads

As far as fitting the red and green near the stern.... while I cant find any specific prohibition (for now)......I don't think it is a clever idea....and I think there would be problems displaying the correct pattern......as the body of the boat would obscure both lights in the dead ahead possition................ it is mostly expected that the red and green will be on the front half of the boat unless there is a cabin or superstructure on the rear half of the boat.

as far as seperately switching the riding lights and the white light......arent you getting a bit picky there.....the bottom line is that you must be able to run the all round white and not the red & green when not underway..........if that isnt a seperate switch in most peoples minds I don't know what is.just be thankfull that they allow us to run one single all round white and we dont have to have bow, stern, all round AND red & green

Hell my boat isnt 100% compliant...... but its better than it was when I got it........ and it shows the correct pattern...at the correct distance..........when I move the red and green.....there will be 1 meter height difference with the all round white.....I need an extra 150mm .and it will be 100%.

Don't worry..when I was shopping for a new boat.........I told more than one salesman that the lights on the boat in question were not compliant.

They may not go to hell for their sins...... but they may get involved in an accident or or get Zipped by the rozzers...........so far I have had someone in uniform give me a boat inspection of some form 3 times in under 2 years.

You can do what you like... I'll be as compliant as I can... and encouracging others likewise

cheers

You may want to rethink that comment..it is tolerated on the roads in very many ways.

[revs57]

fishing again are we Greg?

[oldboot]

Any boddy that thinks inforcement of the rules on the water is anything like it is on the road is dreaming.

A motor vehicle manufacturer would not be permitted to market a vehicle that had lighting that did not comply with the ADRs..........even new trailers comply with the ADR's.

When you transfer rego on a car or trailer over 2 tonnes, it is required to undergo a roadworthy inspection.....compliance of the lights is examined.
In other states this is an anual requirement.
If you register a home built trailer of any size, or a trailer not currently registered it will need to undergo at least a basic inspection prior to registration.

None of the above applies to recreational boats

land bassed traffic coppers are right onto lighting defects..... blown lamps, broken tail light lenses..admittedly not as much as they once were.
Big brother has been given the third degree on a a couple of ocasions comming back from a hard western trip with a blown tail light, he carries a full lamp kit and lives an hour west of Townsville. .. not like its a capital city thing.

On the road they often have one stop compliance operations, with police and transport department officers in attendance...licence and rego checks, RID, and full transport inspections.

The sporting ground past the butter factory at Kingston is a favorite... been pulled up there twice ( and I don't go there often) ( licence check, 20 questions, blow in the bag, lights wipers horn, look at the tyres)... they will zip hundreds in a day.....there is always a flurry of activity with blokes bringing car trailers, tow trucks and even blokes walking down the street with their "legal wheels".. all just so they can get their cars home.

Ya think those RID exercises are only about breath testing, quite often they are doing licence checks and screening for minor defects.

Then there are the publicised "roadworthy blitzes", never the scale that they make em out to be but they happen.

Quite a few years ago they were setting up at tip sites and zipping unregistered and unroadworthy trailers.

Imagine if they set up a transport inspection at your local boat ramp.........holy spitt... there would be a conga line of tow trucks a mile long.



Of course they can zipp you for non compliant nav lights during the day.... just like they can zipp you for a number of things that you don't need but have on board that arent compliant.......like expired flares (you can be zipped for those any time any where).

Truth is they probaly wont... unless you rub them the wrong way, or the copper is having a bad day.

cheers

[finga]

Right...All you blokes that are nit picking about light positions put up pictures of your boats.
I want to pick them to pieces and say 'why don't you practice what you are trying to preach'.

Yellahunter has asked where to put his lights.
There have been no answers to his question or the say why the positions suggested are no good other then "As far as fitting the red and green near the stern.... while I cant find any specific prohibition (for now)......I don't think it is a clever idea....and I think there would be problems displaying the correct pattern......as the body of the boat would obscure both lights in the dead ahead possition................ it is mostly expected that the red and green will be on the front half of the boat unless there is a cabin or superstructure on the rear half of the boat."
"I don't think it is not a clever idea" or "I think there would be problems" or "it is mostly expected " is not good enough. If you want to work to a standard work to a standard. "I think" and "it's mostly expected" do not have any place in standards.
I work to standards if the need be and if someone is going to be as picky as finding fault because the light is going to be off line by 3 or 4 degrees (when there is a tolerance of + or - 2 degrees in the standard...yes. look it up) then I will 'have a bad day' so to speak. Especially if the persons doing the nick picking do not comply to the standards they are preaching about.
"as far as seperately switching the riding lights and the white light......arent you getting a bit picky there....." well yes I am. Especially when you originally say MUST. But aren't you been a bit picky about angles?? They are both in the standards. If other people want to be picky then so will I.
A bit hypocritical IMO

In this case suggesting a combination deck light at the front is not good enough either. How is it going to shine past the electric motor?

Saying your lights are pretty close and then expecting everyone else to FULLY conform to regulations is just plain double standards and hypocritical.
Have I had a bad day?? No. Just sick and tired of keyboard heroes not living in the real world finding fault with every one but themselves.
Even if you think you have positioned the lights correctly I WILL find fault with the the lights if push comes to shove.
The first port of call will be "are they wired to standard. If so what standard" and then inspect to see if they comply to that standard.
I am really good at finding faults in peoples electrical work. I was an electrical installation inspector for a Government department in NSW. That's why I have a working knowledge of so many standards and have access to them (even if I have not got them in my hands ATM) to quote from and to use for conformity.

Remember if there is 1 little thing wrong with the installation then the whole boat does not comply.
Yes, there are standards.
Yes, there are boats where the lights are ridiculously positioned.
But is any boat fully 100% compliant. NOPE!!

Actually Oldboot. A Question if I may. You say you got checked the other day by the Police. Did they check your boat lights and book you?? As you have admitted your lights are wrong and say they're gunna get you if they are wrong.
Did they check the light intensity of your trailer lights too as there is a standard to them as well.
What about the tow ball?? They have to be of a standard and most are not certified.

Does having removable navigational lights in a box in the boat constitute having incorrectly positioned lights?? As someone reckon you can be booked even when the lights are not on or there is no need for them to be used ie middle of the day.

I have suggested 2 spots.
No body has said (from a standards point of view) if they are suitable or not.
If your happy to the level of compliance considering the risks of getting booked for incorrectly positioned lights (also considering the number of people running about with no lights at all with no apparent consequences) then put them in one of those spots.
Personally I would be putting them just aft of the casting deck (where the gunwale is fairly straight and just before it starts to curve to the stem) under the gunwale and I personally would be comfortable with the risk factor of getting booked for incorrectly positioned lights.

I have 3 boats. None of the nav. lights comply to the letter of the regulations but am I going to change them??
Not a hope in hell. Why? I am comfortable with the risk factor involved with having them the way they are.

So there. I've had enough.

[oldboot]

Firstly... unless the boat is required to pass survey there is no specific requirements on how you wire your boat or in what colour or in what material for that matter.... apart from an implied requirement for it to be safe....... so any discussion conserning how the thing is wired has very little to do with regulations.

The regulations say what shall be displayed and when... and how visavble it is.

So finga you are promoting the idea of intentionaly installing a lighting system that is not compliant, or does not provide maximum visabilty.

In this thread, I am not going out picking fault with other peoples boats.

The question asked was what is compliant......the wording is simple..."above the hull"....so screwing something below the gunwal anywhere on the boat is not above the hull.
Most hulls will have 10 deg pluss outward leaning angle even at the rear... so we arent just talking a few degrees.

also in a shallow sided boat like a tornament boat.......I sugest it would be impossible to provide 2 Nm visability with the lights below the gunwal.

If you have personal ideas about what you want on your boat, and how that boat is structured and equiped......that is your problem.
The requirements and regulations.. and those who enforce them realy dont care iff you have a bow mount trolling motor... or you dont wat a high all round white becaus it will interfeer with your casting........or you boat presents other problems with mounting a compliant display of lights... thats your problem.

The use of lights that are removable, remountable or adjustable for night time use will not be an issue.... those lights are fit for purpose and as long as they are compliant when mounted... they are compliant.....even large ships will often demount their mast carring lights for clearance purposes.

For most of us mounting a fully compliant display of lights will present a chalenge... and the regulations do make some allowances for that.

But the overriding issue is VISABILITY and displaying a pattern that can not be mistaken for what it is suposed to be.
rule 20 paragraph (b)
..."not impare their visability or distinctive character"
If you realy want to get narky.
rule 20 paragraph (a)
"Complied with in all weathers"

So iff you lights are mounted low on the boat and the chop obscures your lights. and they are not correctly visable......you are non compliant.
So that vessel would only be compliant in calm weather..and is suitable for use as such.

If you want to argue about that... my lights are over 6 feet off the water.


Like many things marine.......there are lots of details not spelt out...... but there are overriding general rules that you are required to comply with... many do not grasp this.
Visability over rides all other concerns, displaying the correct pattern overrides all other concerns...... the remaining specifications are additional to those concerns.

Just compare the collision rules on water with the collision rules on land.

On water the over riding principle is to do the most you can to avoid trouble... not the minimum........and the empasis is on your responsibilty not the other blokes.


Any body on any forum, slinging off at any other "being a keyboard hero" is pissing in the wind, and the pot is calling the kettle black.

As far as ruels are concerned... it matters not what or how much you have done... comprehension matters.

We can argue about this all day...... but our opinion matters little in a colision situation or when someone in a uniform decides to read you the rules.

the term.. carried where they are best visable comes to mind.... cant quote from where.

Its pointless arguing
You have to real all of the rules... and grasp the implied requirements too.

cheers

[oldboot]

Oh the other day.

Thay had no grounds to inspect the boat for other than rego... because it was on the trailer on dry land.......they could no more book it for anything than thay could book a wreck on a tow truck.

My trailer lights are to standard...as is the tow ball and the hitch... but because the vehicle was parked at the time and not on a roadway.. they would have difficulty booking an offence regardless.

checking rego.. I have no problem with that.. they may have been checking for stolen too.

cheers

[finga]

Firstly... unless the boat is required to pass survey there is no specific requirements on how you wire your boat or in what colour or in what material for that matter.... apart from an implied requirement for it to be safe....... so any discussion conserning how the thing is wired has very little to do with regulations.

The regulations say what shall be displayed and when... and how visavble it is.


Think again bucko.
Is the National Marine Safety Committee (an Australian Government mob) a strong enough mob to get an idea from??
I'll even post the link again...http://www.nmsc.gov.au/media/images/NMSC_nav_lights_A5_bro_v3.pdf
If so then page 1 states
"By law, navigation lights and their installation on recreational boats are required to comply with the positioning and technical requirements of an international agreement commonly known as COLREGS.
Marine Safety Authorities enforce the requirements of the COLREGS and can provide a summary of those requirements as they apply in the local area."

And then if you'd like to go to page 3 they state some of the technical requirements which include conductor colour. It says white. I have other codes which state grey.
Can you direct me to a standard that says navigational lights can be wired in red as the active conductor??

So I say again. If the lights are not wired correctly the navigation lights are just as defective as mounting them on the transom.

Wiring the port and starboard lights in red wire can be seen as a defective installation unless a suitable standard can be produced.
It also states wiring MUST be installed in accordance with a recognised standard. If you cannot state the standard used then it is safe to assume the navigational lights have not been installed to a recognised standard.

If your going to nit pick then I will go all the way.

Give me a reference to the part where they have to be above the hull. I can only find where they say above the highest deck for recreational boats.

If you consider the positioning of the lights to be of so great of an importance why haven't you altered them? Especially seeing you can, apparently, be booked for it...even in the middle of the day with the boat on the trailer.

Again I will ask for pictures of any boat deemed to have the navigational lights to be installed correctly and I will see if I can shoot it down in flames.
I would really love to see pictures of the boats owned by the blokes nitpicking about positioning.

I was talking (unofficially) to a chappy at MSQ today and if somebody was found to have nav. lights to be in an incorrect position then the owner would, more then likely under worse case scenario, be issued with a MW99 (ie a warning) but that would greatly depend on the person's attitude.
A huge percentage of the navigational light offences are for not having any, or not displaying any, navigational lights whether side lights or all round white light.

So...what I'm trying to put across...if your going to preach the standard or code preach the entire standard or code NOT just convenient excerpts of it and not to be a hypocrite.

[oldboot]

there are a great many standards out there..mmm and all the musts and should that like to have.



Unless that standard and the provisions of that standard is specificaly called in legeslation , or there is some sort of contractual agreement or obligation to abide by the standard, there is absolutly no compulsion to abide by such a standard.

cheers

[PinHead]

fishing again are we Greg?

no mate..just being realistic..at least 1/3 of 4WD on the road are not legal yet the coppers rarely worry about them..same as boats

[finga]

there are a great many standards out there..mmm and all the musts and should that like to have.



Unless that standard and the provisions of that standard is specificaly called in legeslation , or there is some sort of contractual agreement or obligation to abide by the standard, there is absolutly no compulsion to abide by such a standard.

cheers
What does that all mean exactly??
Are you trying to say we do not have to abide by COLREGS??
I'm buggered if I know.
One minute your saying not to tell people to place their lights where they do not comply due to locality and then in the next breathe say.....but don't about the installation of them......that bit of the regulations doesn't really matter??
Sorry but that sounds hypocritical to me.
Well this regulation is in writing in Australia.
If your going to harp on about following the requirements then follow ALL the requirements....not just the bits that suit.
In this case some of the requirements are outlined in this brief guideline.
http://www.nmsc.gov.au/media/images/NMSC_nav_lights_A5_bro_v3.pdf

Can you bung a picture of your boat up? I would love to see the lights on it. Especially the nav. lights that are 6 feet in the air.

[Wahoo]

LOL Scott, you crack me up...........I think you need a fishing day out...lol...


Daz

[geoffmck]

Gee, this post must pass some records for length of replies. Do you blokes get any time to go fishing?

Hey Yellahunter, you have probably stopped reading the post by now, but if not have you ripped off the lights and just given up the idea of boating at night?

[finga]

Hey Yellahunter, you have probably stopped reading the post by now, but if not have you ripped off the lights and just given up the idea of boating at night?
That's the sad bit.
99% of boats would have incorrectly positioned nav lights (including, more then likely, the two making a song and dance about it ,with one admitting his lights are wrong, and new boats from the factory) and Yellahunter may have just given up on the idea and chucked it in the too hard basket.
The authorities are flat out trying to stops boats with no lights at all so the chances of getting pinged with slightly incorrect light angles (as this particular case would be) would, in reality, be very slight.

And my point all along has been...If your going to harp on about regulations you'd better...
(a) practice what you preach. Hypocrites just annoy the crappers out of me.
(b) follow the entire regulation. Not just the bits that suit you.


LOL Scott..........I think you need a fishing day out...lol...


Daz
Is that an offer??