Etec upgrade 150hp to a 200hp will I save fuel costs

[marvin]

I have a godd condition 20 y/o 6.2mt pride president half cabin with hardtop, boat weight loaded 1.5 tonne. Currently have a 150hp Etec 2007 with 250hrs on it. Uses fuel at 2lts per 1 nauticle mile or 2 lts per 1.8km, (fuel prices are killing me) average speed 20-24kts with rpm 3900-4100. WOT is 5150, with the 4th prop tried - currently using a 14 1/2 x 15 four blader ss from Steve at solas. A Dealer has offered me a small block 200hp 2007 model with 400hrs on it, ex demo motor. Comes with 3 yr warranty from factory, same weight as current 150hp, but they say I will get better fuel economy on my offshore trips than the current 150hp running at 3/4 throttle most of the time. Change over price is $3000 keeping my original gauges and control box/cables. Is this too much to pay to upgrade the 50hp, and will I get that money back in fuel savings hopefully running the 200hp at 1/2 throttle. thanks for your assistance.

[Jabba_]

That's a trick question to answer, but I'm thinking 1.8-2 nm is bloody good economy...

Also your motor is not set up correctly, and that is all ready costing you fuel... Your motor needs to hit 5300-5500rpm @ wot with your usual load...

Your motor is under excessive load, and as a result, it will use more fuel and oil...

The 200 will be a much better suited motor for your size boat, and the 150 I would think is a bit under powered... If it were me I would do the swap to get the extra HP so your not working the motor as hard getting to your fishing spots...

I don't think your going to save a great deal on fuel doing the upgrade, and it would take you years to recoup the cost off the change over if the 200 does hve better economy..

If you do get the 200, make sure you have it propped to reach a minimum 5600rpm with your usual load.... The optimum range for the 200 is 5600-5850rpm..

[marvin]

Thanks Jabba, I have the motor on the highest hole and this gave an extra 200rpm than where the dealer fitted it, came with a 15 x 15 ss prop, and I got an extra 100 rpm and slightly better economy on the 4 bladded thrust master from solas. The 5150 is after these alterations. It has a top speed of 32 knots and sounds good at 3900 with 21-22kts speed. A mate has a 6.25 cruiscraft outsider, with a 150 etec, and we did an 80 mile trip, he used 105 liters I used 160lts in the same sea conditions. My motor uses 70 lts fuel to 1lt of xd100 oil, this is hard on the pocket too. Dealer just offered $2500 as final change over price. Any more comments on a ex demo outboard and this idea please.

[Scott79]

Jabba, mate I think your fuel calculation is out a bit, 2 litres per 1.8km, not 1.8-2nm per litre !!! Might put a different slant on things?

Me personally, I would probably pay the extra and go for the 200, not sure how long it would take to recoup the difference in fuel and oil, but just for running your engine at less rpm for longevity. As Jabba has suggested, might be a good time to fine tune the installation/props etc also.
400hrs and 2 years seems alot for a 'demo' motor though, whats the story behind the motor?

Scott.

[marvin]

Details scratchy on the 200hp demo motor, it will be here next week. All I have been told is that it will be fully serviced and have 3yr warranty from date of fitup through BRP. Will find out where and what it was fitted on previously before I commit to it. Guys what other fine tunning do you suggest I can do that I haven't tried so far on existing 150hp? I have had the new style plugs put in it, had a soft ware upgrade done in 2008, I Have it raised fully on the transom holes, cav plate sits about 1" above the bottom of the hull line, doesn't cavitate, tried 3 different prop styles and pitches, placed a SE sports fin on the motor as it is stern heavy, then took that off and put a much improved permatrim on a few months ago, now hardly use trim tabs to get the nose down, only use them in a front on chop. If I wasn't using double the fuel to a 4 stroke I probably wouldn't bother with it, but I am thinking about the ? under powered or lack of RPM at WOT of 5150 though for the long term of keeping the rig as is...

[marvin]

Sorry Scott79, understand both you and Jabba suggested correct fitting and proping of the 200, not the current 150hp, as I first thought on my last reply, thanks guys for your comments.

[Jabba_]

Jabba, mate I think your fuel calculation is out a bit, 2 litres per 1.8km, not 1.8-2nm per litre !!! Might put a different slant on things?

Me personally, I would probably pay the extra and go for the 200, not sure how long it would take to recoup the difference in fuel and oil, but just for running your engine at less rpm for longevity. As Jabba has suggested, might be a good time to fine tune the installation/props etc also.
400hrs and 2 years seems alot for a 'demo' motor though, whats the story behind the motor?

Scott.

Oop's,, I did read it wrong... In that case those figures are woefull, hidiously woefull...

[Jabba_]

One other thing.... If I were buying a second hand E-tec with no warranty (I know yours will get 3 years) is I wouuld not buy one with low hours... The fact that this 200 has clocked up 400hrs in 3 years meens too me that it is a good strong motor....
I would would buy it..

[ozbee]

if you pitch down you will get better fuel economy and far less oil usage but a loss of speed . remember 20 years ago a 150 was verty much top of the hp range . thousands of those old prides were running on 135 johonos and they were considered hot in there day . personally a 2oo will keep you with the pack but remember nothing blows a etec faster is a ho geared up on a heavy hull so i would set it to run max revs loaded so you have a bit in reserve . 400 hrs demo hmmm . fuel consumption would be much the same as your 150 set up right just maybe at a slightly faster speed

[Jabba_]

Details scratchy on the 200hp demo motor, it will be here next week. All I have been told is that it will be fully serviced and have 3yr warranty from date of fitup through BRP. Will find out where and what it was fitted on previously before I commit to it. Guys what other fine tunning do you suggest I can do that I haven't tried so far on existing 150hp? I have had the new style plugs put in it, had a soft ware upgrade done in 2008, I Have it raised fully on the transom holes, cav plate sits about 1" above the bottom of the hull line, doesn't cavitate, tried 3 different prop styles and pitches, placed a SE sports fin on the motor as it is stern heavy, then took that off and put a much improved permatrim on a few months ago, now hardly use trim tabs to get the nose down, only use them in a front on chop. If I wasn't using double the fuel to a 4 stroke I probably wouldn't bother with it, but I am thinking about the ? under powered or lack of RPM at WOT of 5150 though for the long term of keeping the rig as is...

Plugs and Software upgrade arn't going to improve your economy...

By the sound off it you hve got the height off your motor right, next is to get the revs up, to lower the load on the motor..... But I really don't thingyour going to improve the milage to be square with your mates Cruise Craft.....

Have you considered the windage on your boat... That hard top would be causing heap off drag and resistance... If I recall correctly those Prides are a big squareish boat, no smooth lines like the cruise craft... Also, what is the condition off the bottom off your hull, and your mates CC....
Have you had a compression test done to your motor.. The is a possibility you may have damaged your motor by have it propped too low (over propped)


What prop does the CC have,, What are his WOT rpm and speed...

I would not have expcted to see such a big differance in economy between those too boats...

[marvin]

Mates cruise craft is a 15 x 15 viper polished prop, and his WOT is 5600, both are 2007 model motors bought new 3 months apart. boat weights are similar, He gets best economy at 4100 rpm and often runs it up the inside of Fraser at 5200-5400 and uses about 90 litrs fuel to 1lt oil and in calm water gets nearly a mile a liter. My hull is clean, just old and yes the boat is square shaped, but has backward sloping windscreens and cabins. will try and post a pic. Have not had my 150hp compression tested. Should I?

[finding_time]

Jabba, mate I think your fuel calculation is out a bit, 2 litres per 1.8km, not 1.8-2nm per litre !!! Might put a different slant on things?

Scott.

Scott

Jabba,s well known for fuel calcuations that are a bit out;) ;D Isn't that right Jabba8-)

[Spaniard_King]

Marvin,

I doubt you will get that money back in fuel saving as others have said, best you can hope for is a good performing boat with slightly better fuel consumption.

No matter what anyone says you still have to pour fuel in to make HP

[Reel Blue]

I don't think you will see much benefit unless you go to the larger block V6 ETEC. Both the 150 and smaller block 200 are 158.2 cu inch/2592 cc motors. The 200 will be a bit quicker at the top end, but will consume more petrol to gain it. I had a 15x15 three blade stainless BRP prop on a HH 650 Classic (weighs 1300 kg dry) and it would pull 34 knots and cruise very easily around 23 knots. Your fuel economy is woeful and something is not right. I would try the prop I used before you change motors.

[Jabba_]

Scott

Jabba,s well known for fuel calcuations that are a bit out;) ;D Isn't that right Jabba8-)
LOL..... Yeah, I have been known to make to odd mistake..

[Jabba_]

Marvin... Before you do the swap,, see if you can get your hands on a 15" Rebel prop... It's BRP prop so your dealer should be able to get one in for you...

They are an exellant prop for heavy boats, better then 4 bladers IMO... If you find the 15"Rebel is a little to big for the 150, it should be perfect on the 200...

[marvin]

Thanks Reel Blue, will see if I can get one of those props, taking my 150 to the dealer today to get print out of stats from the last 12 months, to see if anything shows up as a problem on the report. Has any one got a 200 yammy 4st for sale....

[Jabba_]

While your at the dealer, make sure your get a compression test done...

[marvin]

Went and asked for a diagnostic print out and a compression test, I was told they did not have time to do a comp test and it was not neccassary to do a compression test.., 240hrs on the 150 etec since august 2007, no current hard faults found, Stored engine faults code 89 x 1 at 159hrs - Exhaust pressure above expected range, and code 87 x 1 Exhaust pressure circuit fault detected. Maxium temp port side 85.0 degrees, max temp starboard side 90.9 degrees. 760 start cycles. Serial number is 5190669 model number E150DPXSUF. SOFTWARE VERSION 3030377, emm SERIAL NUMBER 10008661 emm MAX TEMP 70.7Degrees. Cylinder 5 pressure -30 other 5 cylinders pressure 0.??? Asked dealer if any of this highlights any problems with the motor and I was told it is perfect - it is my boats style and weight that is the problem with the fuel economy of 2 liters per 1 nauticle mile and there is nothing wrong with the motor, just need a higher hp on my boat to improve the economy. I have a 15x15 SS prop that came on the motor, is this different to the BRP one you suggested to try? As this prop gave worse economy than the polished solars 14 1/2 x 15.

[Jabba_]

The reason I sugested a comp test is due to your motor being over propped.. When I motor is over propped it is lugging all the time, from trolling to WOT... Just inagine how much faster your going to wear out your rings and bearings when your motor is lugging all the time....

The shape off your boat does make sense, Hydro and airodynamics can have a major affect on speed and fuel consumption...

The SS prop you tryed is an allrounder.. The Rebel has a larger diameter and larger blade area.. It will mover more watr and provide more thrust then an SS..

[marvin]

Jabba, put it in black and white for me, what is the diameter and pitch and brand of prop You suggest for me to try, I was told I have the lowest available prop to get the best rpm 14 1/2 x 15 and the motor never has sounded or felt like it is lagging at any speed or rpm to me... cheers.

[krazyfisher]

have you tried the next prop down 14 1/2 X 13? It sounds like it is as simple as your prop is too big.

I have just been playing with props and a 19 gives 30lph @ 45-48kph, 21 gives 38 lph @40-42pkh and lost 800rpm. I know differant boat and motorbut worth a shot. if just playing with props and you have a few to play with I like to keep going bigger till too big than come back or keep going smaller than going up, as it is good to know what the next size will do.

[Jabba_]

Jabba, put it in black and white for me, what is the diameter and pitch and brand of prop You suggest for me to try, I was told I have the lowest available prop to get the best rpm 14 1/2 x 15 and the motor never has sounded or felt like it is lagging at any speed or rpm to me... cheers.

OK the Prop I sugest is a "Rebel" 15" x 15 .75" Dia,,, made by BRP... The Rebel is a more efficent prop then a 4 blader, and should spin up a bit easier then your current 4 blader.....

A motor does not have to sound like its lugging, for it to be lugging...
Your close to the botton end of the optimium rev range now, that is not good enough if you want your motor to preform at it best. Best hole shot, best top speed, best fuel economy, best oil economy, a longer engine life... The more load you can get off your motor the happier it's going to be...

Personaly, if I had a 150, I would have it propped so it reached 5500rpm with a heavy load and full fuel tank.... With no load, I would want it to reach 5700rpm

[marvin]

Does any one have a Rebel 15 3/4 x 15 prop for a 150hp etec that I can try or buy, or a smaller sized prop like a 14 1/2 x 13 for a 150hp etec? Can anyone shed some light on the best place to obtain one of these props please, so I can try it asap before the 200hp arrives and I have to make the final decision on going to the bigger 200hp outboard or sticking with the 150 and trying to reprop it to improve performance/economy.

[Chimo]

Hi Marvin

Why dont you give this guy a look at your situation?

Propeller Sizing & Speed Calculation



Prop. it Right Analysis


Performance of a boat can be maximized with a properly matched propeller. We use the Australian "PROP SCAN" for our calculation and repairs.
To choose the right propeller for your boat ,we need some information regarding the boat itself and the motor.

For a free calculation, please click here (http://www.propellerrepairsaustralia.com.au/files/propellersizingwebsite.pdf) to download and then print our Prop. it Right Analysis PDF form (16.4KB) and when completed , fax it to: 07 5571 1377 for your FREE Prop. it Right Analysis


6/48 Johnston Street Southport, QLD 4215 Ph: 07 5532 5891 Fax: 07 5571 1377 Email: proprepairs@hotkey.net.au (proprepairs@hotkey.net.au) Contact: Yan Eschembrenner

[marvin]

Thanks Chimo, Completing the form now and will send it today. Let you know the outcome. cheers.

[samson]

Marvin i've got a 15 3/4 x 15 rebel spare i'm looking to sell it's left over from prop testing when i fitted my 150 etec but i'm based at the gold coast.

[marvin]

Can you ring me please 0408 848 564, regarding the rebel prop. anytime. cheers Kev.

[Redbream]

The reason I sugested a comp test is due to your motor being over propped.. When I motor is over propped it is lugging all the time, from trolling to WOT... Just inagine how much faster your going to wear out your rings and bearings when your motor is lugging all the time....

The shape off your boat does make sense, Hydro and airodynamics can have a major affect on speed and fuel consumption...

The SS prop you tryed is an allrounder.. The Rebel has a larger diameter and larger blade area.. It will mover more watr and provide more thrust then an SS..



That sounds correct, but if his motor is already struggling, how will this fix it????


A smaller diameter prop would let it spin up faster. Are the rebels ventilated? Might be worth trying a Merc prop that is, such as the Enertia. Superb prop8-) on heavier boats and sounds like yours is.



http://www.reynoldsracingmarine.com/images/ENERTIA_PROP.jpg

[Jabba_]

That sounds correct, but if his motor is already struggling, how will this fix it????


A smaller diameter prop would let it spin up faster. Are the rebels ventilated? Might be worth trying a Merc prop that is, such as the Enertia. Superb prop8-) on heavier boats and sounds like yours is.



http://www.reynoldsracingmarine.com/images/ENERTIA_PROP.jpg

At the moment Marvin is running a 4 bladed Solars prop.. I felt that the Rebel with 3 blade might spin up a bit easier, and give better performance....

[marvin]

I have located a 15 1/2 x 15 rebel, now hoping someone has a 14 1/2 x 13, for a 150hp etec. Please call asap if you have one of these props or similar, ph 0408 848 564, thanks for your help in trying to get this sorted for me before I have to decide on getting the 200hp or keep what I have.

[Jabba_]

I have located a 15 1/2 x 15 rebel, now hoping someone has a 14 1/2 x 13, for a 150hp etec. Please call asap if you have one of these props or similar, ph 0408 848 564, thanks for your help in trying to get this sorted for me before I have to decide on getting the 200hp or keep what I have.

I dont think your going to be able to find a 13"x14.5" prop for your 150... the smallest prop BRP make for the V6 models is a 14"x15.5" SST,,,, (Viper) which is not a suitable prop for your boat....

[marvin]

That will explain the 5hrs I did searching the net to no avail...Thanks Jabba. I should receive the rebel by wednesday, so will give the boat a run with that one, if I cannot get better economy and higher WOT than 5150rpm with that prop, I think I will need to get the small block 200hp etec, get it propped correctly to suit my boat, and improve on the overall performance and hopefully some fuel savings, even if it is only $10 a trip and have a better chance of not blowing up the 150...? I have had about 50% say go the 200, and 50% say stick with the 150hp as $2500 can buy a lot of fuel for the 150hp. Any further opinions please would be appreciated on whether to take the 200 deal or say no deal..

[Chimo]

Marvin

I am really interested to see what Yan E comes up with. Remember though, GIGO: garbage in garbage out, so you really have to get the numbers correct on what you send him. WWBB for the outcome. Hopefully it will give a required HP figure too as well as props @ different HPs.

Cheers
Chimo

[Monza]

Your motor is using way too much fuel. You should be getting at least 1.5 km per litre with your boat/motor setup. My 600rf gets nearly 2.0km per litre with the suz140.
Might be a fuel calibration problem? The 200 can't be any worse and should run less stressed so would probably be better at faster cruise speeds. I'd go the 200.

[marvin]

I have borrowed my mates 15 x 15 polished Stainless steel propellor off his 150hp etec and 625 cruise craft, that gets 5700rpm WOT, it has a square shaped insert to make it fit the etecand no name or brand eteched on it, the number on the back of the spline hub is 763962. Can anyone tell me the brand/make of this prop please?. Water testing it tommorrow along with the 15 3/4 x 15 rebel. Will let you know the test results, Chimo, haven't heard back from the prop analysis guys as yet.

[Jabba_]

That sounds like a standard SST propeller. I will check the number when I get home.

[marvin]

Jabba, I did a google search and found it: Part 763962 OMC BRP SST II 15 x 15 Right hand Prop. Sorry to take up your time, testing the props in the morning....

[marvin]

Rebel 15 3/4 x 15 3 blades
2000rpm 6.6 kts 12.4 kmphr 10 lts per hr
3000rpm 10.5 kts 19.1 kmphr 22.5 lts per hr
4000rpm 24.8 kts 46 kmphr 44 lts per hr
4500rpm 28.7 kts 52.8 kmphr 50 lts per hr
5000rpm 32.6 kts 60.4 kmphr 55 lts per hr
5050rpm WOT

BRP OMC 15 x15 SST II 3 blades
2000rpm 7 kts 14.7 kmphr 17.1 lts per hr
3000rpm 11.8 kts 21.9 kmphr 23.3 lts per hr
4000rpm 23.4 kts 43.1 kmphr 45 lts per hr
4500rpm 27 kts 50.5 kmphr 50 lts per hr
5000rpm 31.6 kts 58.7 kmphr 56 lts per hr
5100 WOT

Solas 14 1/2 x 15 4 blades
2000rpm 7.8 kts 14.4 kmphr 10.2 lts per hr
3000rpm 10.6 kts 19.3 kmphr 23.8 lts per hr
4000rpm 23.1 kts 42.3 kmphr 42.5 lts per hr
4500rpm 27.3 kts 51 kmphr 51 lts per hr
5000rpm 31.6 kts 58.5 kmphr 52 lts per hr
5150rpm WOT

Test done on fresh water impoundment with my boat loaded as usual, no trim tab involvement, With motor trimmed slightly up from full down position, except on WOT with boat fully trimed up. With trim fully down cannot see cav plate, with 3/4 trim up plate sits ontop of water, is on the highest position possible, do have wedge plates between motor and transom to help with getting bow down offshore. Most of my running is at 4000rpm for 60-90 minutes each way to fishing spot, maybe 2 hrs trolling during day then 90 minutes back home at 4000rpm. Average trip is 40 - 60 nautical miles. Current ave fuel use is 1 mile to 2 lts of fuel.

Summary: the 4 blade solas prop had the best hole shot, best averaged economy and best control at all speeds, the Rebel was very sluggish on hole shot and boat porposed (bow up and down and up again like bouncing ball) at wot, SST in between solas and rebel with handling and has slightly better hole shot than the Rebel. Motor didn't like the 3000rpm range with slight surging and difficult to hold constant rpm here, over 3500rpm all smooth.

Still at least 500 RPM short of WOT on all three props!!!.
I don't think going to a smaller pitch/diameter prop than 14 1/2 x 15 in any other style will help...? I feel I just need more hp to push the boat hull, and I am awaiting arrival of the 200hp small block Etec this week and feel this is the way I have to head. Comments please on these tests results would be appreciated.

[Luke G]

Are all your injectors working?

[marvin]

Have asked the local dealer multiple times about injectors, they say all is good and it would report it on the print out if they were rs, also said motor would not be running well, I have told them it has intermittant misses in it from the initial test run they did with me, but they said it was nothing and the motor is fine. Do you need to do a on water test with laptop plugged in to check injectors?

[krazyfisher]

I still think untill you try a smaller prop you wont know what it will do.

by my calc's it would be no faster would get more revs and fuel well who knows till you try.....

but nothing beats more power

[Jabba_]

Rebel 15 3/4 x 15 3 blades
2000rpm 6.6 kts 12.4 kmphr 10 lts per hr
3000rpm 10.5 kts 19.1 kmphr 22.5 lts per hr
4000rpm 24.8 kts 46 kmphr 44 lts per hr
4500rpm 28.7 kts 52.8 kmphr 50 lts per hr
5000rpm 32.6 kts 60.4 kmphr 55 lts per hr
5050rpm WOT

BRP OMC 15 x15 SST II 3 blades
2000rpm 7 kts 14.7 kmphr 17.1 lts per hr
3000rpm 11.8 kts 21.9 kmphr 23.3 lts per hr
4000rpm 23.4 kts 43.1 kmphr 45 lts per hr
4500rpm 27 kts 50.5 kmphr 50 lts per hr
5000rpm 31.6 kts 58.7 kmphr 56 lts per hr
5100 WOT

Solas 14 1/2 x 15 4 blades
2000rpm 7.8 kts 14.4 kmphr 10.2 lts per hr
3000rpm 10.6 kts 19.3 kmphr 23.8 lts per hr
4000rpm 23.1 kts 42.3 kmphr 42.5 lts per hr
4500rpm 27.3 kts 51 kmphr 51 lts per hr
5000rpm 31.6 kts 58.5 kmphr 52 lts per hr
5150rpm WOT

Test done on fresh water impoundment with my boat loaded as usual, no trim tab involvement, With motor trimmed slightly up from full down position, except on WOT with boat fully trimed up. With trim fully down cannot see cav plate, with 3/4 trim up plate sits ontop of water, is on the highest position possible, do have wedge plates between motor and transom to help with getting bow down offshore. Most of my running is at 4000rpm for 60-90 minutes each way to fishing spot, maybe 2 hrs trolling during day then 90 minutes back home at 4000rpm. Average trip is 40 - 60 nautical miles. Current ave fuel use is 1 mile to 2 lts of fuel.

Summary: the 4 blade solas prop had the best hole shot, best averaged economy and best control at all speeds, the Rebel was very sluggish on hole shot and boat porposed (bow up and down and up again like bouncing ball) at wot, SST in between solas and rebel with handling and has slightly better hole shot than the Rebel. Motor didn't like the 3000rpm range with slight surging and difficult to hold constant rpm here, over 3500rpm all smooth.

Still at least 500 RPM short of WOT on all three props!!!.
I don't think going to a smaller pitch/diameter prop than 14 1/2 x 15 in any other style will help...? I feel I just need more hp to push the boat hull, and I am awaiting arrival of the 200hp small block Etec this week and feel this is the way I have to head. Comments please on these tests results would be appreciated.
Your final conclusion is correct... 150hp is underpowered for your rig...
The fact that your boat can not hold a plane a constant plane at 3000rpm with any off those props tells me you do need more HP or a much smaller prop....

Dont lose those prop you have. Once you get the 200 try them all again.. The SST I don't think will as good as the other two... But I'm thinking either the Solars or the Rebel that you tested are going to be spot on for your new motor..

Oh... Boats in fresh water tend to be a bit slower and rev a bit less, due to the lack off boancy that salt gives..
Either way, I think you going to do your head in mucking around tryin to get the 150 economical... 200 is the way to go...

[Jabba_]

Have asked the local dealer multiple times about injectors, they say all is good and it would report it on the print out if they were rs, also said motor would not be running well, I have told them it has intermittant misses in it from the initial test run they did with me, but they said it was nothing and the motor is fine. Do you need to do a on water test with laptop plugged in to check injectors?

That is not correct... I have had 3 injectors replaced, none showed up on the computer.. And on the V6 motors, it is very difficult to tell when a injector claps out.. They still idle smooth and run well, just power and WOT rpm drops..

Only Open or Closed circuits will show a fault. If the return spring snaps or binds your injector will not work, and that will not shop up on the computer...

Is the inside off your prop hub black and sutty.. If so you have a crook injector...
Otherwise if your motor is running 100% your hub should be clean with a light grey sutt inside the hub...

PM me if you want to talk via phone...

[marvin]

Soot, more like coal on the prop hub. Has never ran grey. I have reported this too to the dealer, said it is because it's working hard and the fuel might be stale in my boat, I use at least 120lt every 2-3wks, 3 trips ago I did 120 miles and used 250lts of fuel emptied both tanks and had to top up with the gerry cans. how can that be old or stale fuel?? sold me a bottle of $25 fuel treatment, give that a go he says.. The inside of the prop is black as black, the top exhaust under the water pump outlet is a 15cm area of black soot on the cowl and the last 2 trips I have had balck carbon stained water coming out of the gear casing/lower leg when I drain it at the top of the ramp by putting the motor right down. Also when flushing it with muffs there is tiny black particles coming out of the lower leg the last couple of times I have been out. my number is 0408 848 564, call me and I will ring you back to chat. Cheers.

[cormorant]

The fact it won't rev out with different props tells you something.

You have one of the below or a combination

Can't believe the dealer ever let it out of the shop with a "slight miss"

1) No spark to 1 CYL - Can be plug
Can be Plug lead
Can be coil


2) 1 Injector not working - Can be injector
Can be wires
Can be computer

3) Computer stuffed.

4) Head o-ring on one cyl stuffed.

5) Reed Problem

6) oil injector problem overoiling.


With a timing light , compression tester and 10 minutes you can narrow it down. Just pulling the plugs will tell you a lot.
In the workshop with the software you can do cylinder drop tests and solve it in 3 minutes.

When solved check compressions and run some engine tuner through your motor. Check for scored bores.

What oil has it been running on?

Dealer should give you back all the oil and fuel you have used and extend a warranty to you.

And yeah a 200hp would run better but only if it was running on all 6 pots. Get your existing one fixed and save your money as it will be a significant difference

[Reel Blue]

My 650 haines would be a lot heavier than your boat. I could get 5700 rpm out of the 15x15 BRP prop. I could only get 5100 rpm from the 15.75 Rebel and 5200 rpm from the 17 viper. I think there must be something wrong with your motor.

[fishing111]

I wonder why your dealer didn't want to do a compression test?


Went and asked for a diagnostic print out and a compression test, I was told they did not have time to do a comp test and it was not neccassary to do a compression test..,

[Steve B]

Kevvie,

Having been in your boat too many times to recall, I think your motor is too small. BUT, from what some of the boys say here...(and seeing that soot c$%p last time)...maybe there is something wrong...and the motor could be busted. Look forward to the finding out what the mechanic dealer (using that term loosely too!..as you know I have had fun there too) comes up with. I know how good a customer you have been with them for many years...they should treat you better...and everyone for that matter.

In the meantime, I got that well tuned optimax ready to strap on if ya need it...it has 60 less HP...but that should be the equvilant power;);D.

Cheers Stevo

PS: before I get canned....opti vs etec...Kev and I are good mates!!..and its just a friendly dig (we do this regularly)

I thankyou all for helping this top bloke...one of the best offshore fishos I know..I can assure you he has been tearing his hair out with this problem for a while. Its great to see the help he has been getting....especially Jabba. Thanks guys.

[marvin]

Comorant, The oil is xd 100 since day one. (the print out stats states it is programmed for that too) Buying that by the 20lts drums! and thinking of pricing a 44 of it, 70 lts fuel to 1lt oil is my use. Might print out this thread, highlight a lot of points relevant and take it to the local etec dealer....probably tell me to go jump!

Thanks stevo for your loving words,x lol. Not quiet at the Opti phase just yet.

[cormorant]

Dealers like forums like a hole in the head but your motor is sick.It should be getting more revs with the prop change so that is proof.

A injected motor with computer is able to produce the power down low even with one sick pot as it pumps extra fuel into the others to compensate along with changing timing. Hence you use lots of juice and the black soot either comes from the unburnt fuel in the pots as they are too rich and also from the dead pot just pumping through fuel if it is a spark or compression issue. Once they get to about 4000rpm they can't get enough fuel in the other pots and it won't breathe well enough to spin out. At idle you should have no vibration at all they are that smooth when running right.

I have had to have actually lifted the injector in front of a dealer and turned it over with 5 out of 6 wires to injectors disonnected to prove one was not firing , pulled 2nd injector to prove it should work all to prove that the computer wasn't firing one and it wasn't error coding. They wanted to just change out a injector.

Be good to hear how it works out as it will make it feel like a new boat.

All the things mentioned only take 5 minutes to check and 20 for the compression check so don't let bluff you with bull and I hope it is all under warranty and they sort it. along with the correct prop for you.

If teh dealer tells you to go jump , do so straight onto the BRP phone line and get them to sorrt you out with a decent dealer who will do the right thing by you and their product.

PS Depending on the hours run with the motor sick and the results of the compression test ( I would want to be there when that was done and see the dial - sorry I'm getting old and untrusting) I would consider getting a good engineer with a quality borescope to have a look in teh plug hole and look for scoring and carbon build up. They need combustio happening to keep teh bores lubricated and cool.

[marvin]

Next Thursday the 14th Jan booked in for the compression test. Told me I will have to pay for it to be done - unless something is found wrong, no probs with that I guess. So the waiting game continues....Comorant, Jabba, or any of you other guys that have offered advice want to come with me next thursday so I get all things checked that should be checked??? This is soo disheartening... :-(

[Chimo]

Isnt your motor still under its 3 or 5 yr warranty?

Perhaps you should heed Cormorants advice and have a phone chat to BRP.

I have to say this saga is very offputting if one is considering BRP products . From a marketing point of view and potential customer perspective not happy with what I'm reading.

Cheers
Chimo

[cormorant]

Mate I'm not local.

Don't blame them charging if nothing is found- shame it won't work both ways and they pay for your time and all the extra fuel you are using for not sorting it earlier. If they find it is what we suspect don't cop teh bull of paying for extra plugs etc and get a bloody refund from the dills - yeah right. They should be doing and recording a compression test at every service - if not ask them to do so from now on.

Seriously explain that the boat is underperforming and it isn't the hull!!

Seriously show them that you when down pitch and diameter in props and motor still wouldn't rev out - how do they explain that? How do they explain the soot? How do they explain teh fuel use? It is not only just that it is overloaded. It is overloaded as motor is not putting out 150hp.

Look at the plugs as they are removed. They should be all the same - I feel one will be either very dry, very clean or very wet and black depending on your motor issue.

Get them to do the injector drop test while you are standing there. All they need to do is put motor on muffs and attach computer lead - takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds a pot to check. It is like dogs balls as each pot is dropped the motor will go slightly out of balance ( you can see the cowl vibrating ) and exhaust tone will change. With the dead pot you will notice no change. You can do it at home by pullig a spark plug lead , ignition drop test is what I call it ( not suggested) but they can do it in the shop in case it is a igntion issue not a fuel / injector issue.

They should have a spark tester to test the coils - I have used 6 plugs in a dark box with adjustable gap or just widen the gap on 6 old plugs. Just have plugs in motor otherwise you have a explosive mix of petrol goming out your plug holes.

If anyone else up there is local and has a 150 etec can Marvin pop over and put his hand on the cowl at idle as it is hard to pick the slight vibration and different exhaust tone without feling one that is running right. It is hard to pick with cowls on and the rubber engine mounts on motors are pretty good.

Test must be done on warm motor above idle - many dealers get that wrong. Cold and with the "electronic choke on" it is harder to pick.

Something doesn't seem right. Hope we aren't steering you up the right path as the aim isn't to stuff your relationship with the dealer. I wouldn't come across all smart in case it is something else if you get my drift

PS Last stupid one - when on the water if the motor was trimmed way too high would the motor spin out to 6000rpm. Just asking in case there is a issue with teh computer stopping it going there even without load. A undersized test wheel in the dealers workshop test tank would prope it will rev out and discount that as a issue.

PSS I have also used a laser infared thermometer to point at spark plug bases to determin a cyl that is not performing ( either too hot ot cold)

To all of us that own boats the easiest thing in the world to prove the motor is strong and everything is OK is to do the same set distance on the same bit of water ( only a short run) and note the revs, speed and WOT . Any change more tham 5mph or 400rpm indicated ( except for heavy loads) that prop or motor are not performing. Texta it on the dash and do it every trip. I do it so before I head offshore I know everything is OK and same when coming home in the bay. saves you being caught out by small incremental losses in performance and tells you when to get the prop reworked or fresh fuel or consider early service etc.

[Getout]

My 175 Etec runs well, no sign of a miss. Blacck soot inside the prop hub tho- always has had, from day one. Been on the computer three times in three years. Nothing detected.

[Jabba_]

Next Thursday the 14th Jan booked in for the compression test. Told me I will have to pay for it to be done - unless something is found wrong, no probs with that I guess. So the waiting game continues....Comorant, Jabba, or any of you other guys that have offered advice want to come with me next thursday so I get all things checked that should be checked??? This is soo disheartening... :-(

Mate I would love to come up and help you out, but distance is an issue.. Your welcome to call me any time...

[Jabba_]

[quote=cormorant;1116386]Mate I'm not local.


.

Get them to do the injector drop test while you are standing there. All they need to do is put motor on muffs and attach comuter lead - takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds a pot to check. It is like dogs balls as each pot is dropped the motor will go slightly out of balance ( you can see the cowl vibrating ) and exhaust tone will change. With the dead pot you will notice no change. You can do it at home by pullig a spark plug lead , ignition drop test is what I call it ( not suggested) but they can do it in the shop in case it is a igntion issue not a fuel / injector issue.


Test must be done on warm motor above idle - many dealers get that wrong. Cold and with the "electronic choke on" it is harder to pick.

Something doesn't seem right. Hope we aren't steering you up the right path as the aim isn't to stuff your relationship with the dealer. I wouldn't come across all smart in case it is something else if you get my drift



To all of us that own boats the easiest thing in the world to prove the motor is strong and everything is OK is to do the same set distance on the same bit of water ( only a short run) and note the revs, speed and WOT . Any change more tham 5mph or 400rpm indicated ( except for heavy loads) that prop or motor are not performing. [quote]

Marvin tried the drop test at home, by removing the spark plug lead, and there was no noticable differance like your described amoung the injectors..

like you, I feel there is something very wrong with that motor.., and the load that Marvin carries is quiet alot.. His estimation weight full loaded including crew is up around 1800kg.... I would imagine that it would be putting a lot off stress on a 150hp motor...

[Jabba_]

My 175 Etec runs well, no sign of a miss. Blacck soot inside the prop hub tho- always has had, from day one. Been on the computer three times in three years. Nothing detected.

Sutt should be light grey, if it is black, something in not right.... Speak to another dealer and see if you can get soomething sorted...

[krazyfisher]

I would have a simular hull maybe harder to push due to my V and about the same weight. I get 60kph out of a 470(170hp) inboard so a 150hp outboard should be close. also alot of bertram 20 in the states convert to 150hp and get 35-40 mph so it should work with the right prop and the engine running right.


Good luck

[top_deck69]

Hi Jabba,

Who would yu suggest is the best dealer in SEQ (Brisbane to GC) for etec's?? I don't mind travelling a bit to ensure that I am getting the best service and advice.

[cormorant]

All dealers will have good and bad staff or company policies.

Even my mates who are complete nongs mechanically now do the simple recording of WOT and speed etc, check prop for dings, fishing line, mark oil container as they fill it and check it after each outing to make sure a "reasonable "amount was used and look under the cowl to see nothing is out of place. B doing that you don't need the best dealer but you can ensure it is running at least as good after it comes back to you and you can describe to a dealer the possible start of any issues like the black soot , low WOT , higher than normal fuel or oil usage.

A really good dealer will do all the little extra thongs and notice anything out of place not just log the computer and say all is OK and change teh plugs so they get some $ over the counter

Go local and just keep an eye on them and make sure you are getting what you pay for and just don't become a soft touch so ask for estimates on costs before the service. The relationship with the dealer / mechanic if you can create on may work to your advantage longer term and allow you to buy oil straight out of a 44 gal at a discount and so on

That said some dealers are just scum who want to gouge every customer they can, amazes me they are in business but franchises sometimes cause that with warranty etc.

[Jabba_]

Hi Jabba,

Who would yu suggest is the best dealer in SEQ (Brisbane to GC) for etec's?? I don't mind travelling a bit to ensure that I am getting the best service and advice.

Allen Downs is the Evinrude & Johnson Guru in Brisbane,, but I am not sure if he is E-tec certified... Though he is close to you

Contact Information 45 Allison St
Bowen Hills QLD 4006

Phone: (07) 3252 7719
Fax: (07) 3252 1329....

If you do need a Certified E-tec mechanic to retain your warranty... Then take a drive down to Jim at Paradise Point Marine, northern end off the Gold Coast (55771011)....

I have not heard lot off good things about Logan River Marine, or AMC (Australian Marine Center)

[cormorant]

Not sure if the dealer will have a decent test tank and a full set of "test wheels" but they are as good as a dyno in some ways. A test wheel is a special wheel that replaces teh prop in atest tank and it creates resistance like a prop would without emptying the test tank of water like bigger motors do. Proof would come in the form that if they put on a smaller test wheel and it still didn't make full revs it proves something is up with the motor. A lot of peopel don't have them anymore and they weren't cheap. They have been replaced by dynos in race tuning or motor running in applications.

If someone local is set up to put outboards on a dyno it would soon prove what torque and HP the outboard is putting out and takes all external factors out of the mix.

Going to be interesting to see what shows up and what the solution is. Hope it is all good and something simple and obvious.

[marvin]

Been to have the motor checked out, compression test was 130 on every cylinder all equal, the drop test run by the computer showed the same result on each one. All injectors operating normally was the result stated on that procedure. The plugs all looked the same colour and same dryness with even discolouration and burn patterns around the electrodes. The throttle levers were checked and were opening fully.
As far as the mechanic was concerned nothing could be found to be a fault with the operating condition of the electrics, motor or oil systems. They again said it must be the style of my boats hull, and weight that is making it use the 2 litres per 1 nauticle mile.
So the result from the workshop was that my 150 etec is running and operating as it should from the tests conducted.

The small block 200 etec has arrived, June 2006 on the date stamp but SU model I was told is 2007 released yr, has some scratches on the cowl, salt spray corrosion on some of the motor bolts under the cowl, and some of the steel holding brackets on the motor are surface rusted, has had the lower leg resprayed with the white paint, has had a full service with new plugs, fuel filter, gear oil ect, 3 yrs warranty from brp will come with it. Dealer has offer to change my 150 for the 200hp using my gauges and controls, and allow me to take it for a test, if it is good for the boat, $2500 plus my motor is the change over deal, if the 200 performance and economy doesn't suit my boat, they will refit my 150 at a cost of $200 if I chose to stick with my current motor.

That's a fair offer I guess, try before you buy, my motor showed up nothing wrong from the tests today, they did not do a prop resistor WOT test that was suggested in the tank as they did not have the prop replacement attachments. So at this stage I guess I will get the motors swapped over and take the 200 for a run, will play with props while I have it out there, and ensure I can get the WOT perimeters with the 200, let you know the results when I get it sorted and a decision made. Cheers Kev.

[marvin]

150hp etec
Rebel 15 3/4 x 15 3 blades 150hp etec
2000rpm 6.6 kts 12.4 kmphr 10 lts per hr
3000rpm 10.5 kts 19.1 kmphr 2.5 lts per hr
4000rpm 24.8 kts 46 kmphr 44 lts per hr
4500rpm 28.7 kts 52.8 kmphr 50 lts per hr
5000rpm 32.6 kts 60.4 kmphr 55 lts per hr
5050rpm WOT

BRP OMC 15 x15 SST 3 blades 150hp etec
2000rpm 7 kts 14.7 kmphr 17.1 lts per hr
3000rpm 11.8 kts 21.9 kmphr 23.3 lts per hr
4000rpm 23.4 kts 43.1 kmphr 45 lts per hr
4500rpm 27 kts 50.5 kmphr 50 lts per hr
5000rpm 31.6 kts 58.7 kmphr 56 lts per hr
5100 WOT

Solas 14 1/2 x 15 4 blades 150hp etec
2000rpm 7.8 kts 14.4 kmphr 10.2 lts per hr
3000rpm 10.6 kts 19.3 kmphr 23.8 lts per hr
4000rpm 23.1 kts 42.3 kmphr 42.5 lts per hr
4500rpm 27.3 kts 51 kmphr 51 lts per hr
5000rpm 31.6 kts 58.5 kmphr 52 lts per hr
5150rpm WOT
Rebel 15 ¾ x 15 3 blades 200hp etec
RPM KNOTS KM PHR LITERS PER HR
2000 6.4 12 7.8
2500 7.4 13.6 13.6
3000 8.7 16.3 20.1
3500 20.3 37.7 25.5
4000 25.4 46.5 32
4500 29.3 54.4 43.8
5000 32.8 61.2 57
5250 wot 34.9 64.5 62
BRP 15x15 SST 3 Blades 200hp etec
3000 10.7 19.9 23
3500 18 33-34 27
4000 23.4 42.7 30.7
4500 27.5 50.8 42-43
5000 30.8 57.5 54-55
5100 wot 32.7 60.1 57

Solas 14 ½ x 15 4 Blades 200hp etec
RPM knots km phr liters per hr
2000 6.3 12 8.1
3500 14.4 26.9 28
4000 23.4-24 43.9 32
4500 28 51.9 44.5
5200 wot 33 62 54-55

Viper 14 ¾ x 16 3 blades 200hp etec
1500 5.2 9.3 4.7
2000 6.5 11.8 8.1
2500 7.3 13.4 14
3000 8.4 15.6 20.8
3500 11.5-12.5 21.5-22.9 25-26
4000 20.9 37.8 30
4500 25.5 47 36-38
5000 29.5 54.6 49
5650 wot 34-35.7 62.9-66 55-58

These are the tests I have done so far with the 200hp small block etec against the small block 150hp etec. Interesting to see that the WOT with the Rebel, Solas and BRP sst prop were only within 50-150rpm from the 150hp to the 200hp, SO what is the extra 50hp For??
The fuel savings I guess, at 4000rpm is up to 12 liters an hour better with the 200hp than the 150hp with the same props.

The viper prop is what the dealer suggests I run, although I need to be at around 3750rpm to get the boat ontop of the water with the viper fully loaded, the other props have it on top at about 3300-3500rpm. Viper WOT at 5700 is the only one to get in the optimal range of 5600-5850.

The rebel has best economy for distance and speed at 3500-4000 but will only WOT at 5200. So I am in the same boat as the 150hp with a lugging motor????
If the Viper would give me the economy and speed at 3500-4000 Iall would be great, will show these figures to the dealer and suggest I try a 17" viper to maybe get a bit better mid range.

The 200hp has better fuel liters per hr economy than the 150hp on almost all ranges, regardless of the different props I have tried so far. I am amased at the different styles of props that make the boat do different things on the water, I have decided to get the 200hp, as the 12 lts per hr at cruise and 4lts per hour at trolling rpm would save me over the $2500 changeovoer price in under 2yrs of use, plus I will have 3yrs warranty.

So with my original question being; Will a 200hp give me better economy than the 150hp, my answer now would be yes, as the fuel flow readings I have found comparing the 2 motors clearly shows a better economy rate on the 200hp than the 150hp tests I have done on my hull. Thanks to all who have offered me advise on this issue, and hopefully I can report all is good in 3 yrs time. Cheers.

[Spaniard_King]

Ok so after all of the above... does anyone want to upgrade to a 225 Honda :)

[marvin]

Love to, just don't have enough dough for one of those babies, unless you can find one with a $2500 change over price for me before smoko time tommorrow, I went to the other dealers in town and priced some 4 strokes, all good in theory, but they would only give me $5000 for the 150 etec, too much cash to change over, so hoping this 200 will work for me over the next few years.

[cormorant]

The deal seems Ok especially with warranty since the 150hp seems to be working so hard- not sure it would have lasted long term. Still can't get my head around part of what is going on and why there is no top end in either motor. It is good these blokes are working with you to solve this.

If you can can you take a photo of the transom from the side showing the height of the cav plate. I'm asking as I can only think that for those numbers you are 4 inches low ( lots of resistance in e v6 box) or something. With the bow trimmed up at wot is the hardtop acting like a huge sail and a handbrake? A few bits of wool taped on acting as streamers will tell you the airflow over the screen and around the hardtop( Do your ears pop) ? Another boat aking some photos from th side will show you how it rides or a run past someone on the shore with a camera.

When they mount the 150hp on a "known"hull I will be interested to see how it performs.

Hi Gary A 225hp - which is heavier isn't going to help this one I don't think (a light 250hp might) as if it isn't the motor it is the weight or hull shape. It is not that big a boat to be absorbing that much HP. That hull also had a 5.7l mcruiser in them and wern't a huge performer. Still not sure how this will go with a few fat blokes on board.

What motor did it have before the rude on it and how did it perform?.

Hasn't got those automatic trim tabs has it or anything close to the prop that could be causing airation . Has someone looked over the back of teh hull at teh cav plate when running at cruise speeds and higher.

I'm just about out of ideas except thinking that hull absorbs 400kg of water every time you launch it and loses it when you go to the weigh station. The weight you gave was from a weigh station not a "manufacturer weight"wasn't it.?



Edit - one last thought

One last idea for you - you have a fuel restriction - check what size fuel hoses have been used and any pipes from tanks, tight bends, kinks, redidue in them, jellied fuel in tank or tank strainer, breather plugged and what flow rate any fuel filters have. Easiest way to test this is use a external tank with a known big bore hose and fittings and switch to it while on the water.

[Jabba_]

Good advise as usual from Cormorant... Marvin it would be helpful to see the height off your engine, a close snap shot with the cav plate parallel with the hull... If you like I will host the picture, just email it to my the dcs address... If you like I can post up all the other pic off your rig, so that everyone has an idea what sort off boat were working with.....

[Jabba_]

I received a comprehensive list off pictures from Kevin today, so here they are....

Just by looking at these pics the Pride looks to be very bum heavy, and with all the extra load that Kev throws in her for a trip (4 blokes eski & ice and 300lt fuel) most off that weight would be at the back, apart from the eski making the motor harder...

This is Kev's Email to me

Jabba/Matt, Motor is set on bottom hole to make it as high as it can go on the transom bolts. Went back to dealer today, with viper prop not giving good mid ranger speed to rpm. Gave me a stingray foil to fit on the 200 to get the transom up, and they think this will assist in lowering the high 3800 rpm needed to get the boat on the plane and bring up the distance for rpm with the viper prop. Just checking out the new “no bolts” top of the range stingray before I go fitting the base model fin with 4 bolts.

The cav plate is 5cm front and rear above hull bottom when trimmed to be parallel with hull bottom, 7cm at front of plate and 9cm at rear when in WOT trimmed up position from bottom of hull line, and when trimmed under front of plate is 4cm above hull line and rear end of plate is level with hull line. The plate is not visible when trimmed under and is only visible when trimmed about half way up at speed.

When offshore, I need to have the motor trimmed under most of the time to keep nose down. Except in a following sea of course then it is trimmed up about ¼ to half to let the old girl ride them home.

Hope these pics are ok, didn’t have time to take plate pics, but the measurements above should describe the height of the motor.
Cheers Kev.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/011.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/013.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/015.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/020.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/018.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/rearviewcavplatefullpicoftransom.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/rearviewofcavplateheight.jpg

Timmed parallel to hull.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/022.jpg

Trimmed all the way in.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/021.jpg

Trimmed all in at cruise speed
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/wh2motortrimedfullyundercantseeplat.jpg

Trimmed at normal cruise position
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/wh2motortrimedupcanseeplateeasily.jpg

Trimmed out at 5000rpm
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/wh2trimmedupat5000rpm.jpg

[Jabba_]

After speaking to Kevin, reading his E-mails and data and looking at the boat pics, it seams clear that it is bum heavy.... Fitting a sting ray will give the stern more lift, but I'm thinking it is going to need more for it to feel any real benefit....

I'm thinking larger trim tabs, the extra surface area should create lift and get the nose down more....

A cleaver style prop.. That is a prop with a straight cut trailing edge which helps lift the stern, similar to the viper but has less rake...

A pod might help also....

What are your thoughts????

[Chimo]

It certainly looks to be heavy in the tail and the old Prides were heavy to start with.

The front half needs lots of that weigh located there ie the extra fuel and what about setting up a tray or similar to slide the esky forward into the cabin while travelling?

Probably be hard to get the motor up much more, one could always slice the back meter or so off and insert another couple meters of hull. That would probably sort it out too. A job for Gav!

Cheers
Chimo

[odes20]

Sorry to butt in but what sort of fuel consumption are others getting with 150-175 etecs on a 6 mtre fiberglass rig?

[Skusto]

would the permatrim really be any benifit as the tabs should be doing the work for you?
do u use your trim tabs to lift your stern and push your boat into the waves? what we generally do on the barcrusher depending on weather is to actually trim the motor out a little bit or even and use the trim tabs to push the nose into the head sea it works well and u can notice in sound from the engine that it handles it better then trimming the engine down?

give it a try next time your out works great for us!

also prop wise i was under the impression that 4 bladers provided more lift then the 3 bladers?

fuel line wise brp state that they have to run a 3/8th fuel line.

[Skusto]

Sorry to butt in but what sort of fuel consumption are others getting with 150-175 etecs on a 6 mtre fiberglass rig?

generally if its propped right 1.6 1.7km per litre

[Jabba_]

Marvins mate has a 620 Cruisecraft with 150 E-tec and is getting around 1.8km/lt....

After speaking with Kev,, I don't think we have a motor problem anymore, but rather a boat problem... Very bum heavy once he and the crew and all there gear is on board... The bow wants to point to the sky, so the stern is draging deap through the water causing heaps off drag...

If you look at the pictures off the boat, you will see that the helm is behind the center off the boat... Put 4 blokes in the back off that boat, plus 300lt off fuel and it is not going to sit level...

[cormorant]

Hi jabba

My only thoughts is a 14.5 4 blade to lift the bum. Won't be a speed machine but motor under less stress . Wider tabs wouldnt hurt or 2 small foam filled pods to add some rear floatation and act as hull extensions but a stingray will do nothing more than the permatrim. 1 hole up worth a try to see is it breaks out.

Send the 3 mates to weight watchers

Weight further foward.

Well 20 years ago what would have pushed this better than a modern 200hp? 350 chev?

[Jabba_]

also prop wise i was under the impression that 4 bladers provided more lift then the 3 bladers?

Not quiet true.. Bow lift comes from the shape off the blade on the prop....

[Jabba_]

An interesting thread how bow and stern lift is achieved by propellers..

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000479.html

[Chimo]

Twenty years ago there was probably a 90 or maybe a 100HP 2 stroke and it travelled a bit slower and carried less weight ie fuel and bodies and eskie.

I agree with Matt the motor is less of an issue than the length of the boat the weight being carried and where that weight is.

Further to that point a friend foolishly bought an old, short similar shaped hull which had been recently fitted with a new 4 st 75HP to replace a 60 2 Stroke. It looked and essentially behaved as this Pride is doing.

Too much weight, too short so either move the weight forward, and or shed some weight and/ or cut and slip another m or more or fit a full width pod or forgive me, buy a longer weight carrying hull.

Cheers
Chimo

[marvin]

I have the 3/8 fuel line in use, I do exactly what the barcrusher does, run the motor up a little on the trim, then use the tabs to push the nose down when in an oncomming chop/sea. I have actually broken a bennetts tab actuator because of the pressure on the tabs, this was at 24kts though, so I then didn't trim it up as much in fear of snapping another. When the nose comes down and is pushing a bit more water to give a smoother ride, the rpms drop some and the motor noise changes, thus push the lever down to maintain speed using more fuel!!. In a calm sea, no trim tabs are needed, just get it up and off we go. What I burn up on th eway out I save on the way home I guess... But that dead calm sea condition is a rareity in our open offshore waters, usually 18-22 kts is our average offshore speed, other wise you hit every 4th one pretty hard.

Comorant, I have a 4 blade 14 1/2 x 15 solas torque master advised best stern lift prop from Steve at Solas, been running that prop for 18mths as this gave the 150 the best economy and performance, thrust and lift is good, but either the 200 or the 150 will only spin it at 5200 rpm wot.

If it is the boat and not the motor, is it still worth going to the 200??? Had a quote to extend the transom $4500, plus new cables for motor, probably not worth spending that sort of money on an old hull???

[Chimo]

Marvin

If you could choose to get into another boat what would it be?
New or 2nd hand, work out the $s it would cost and then consider what it would cost to modify your boat and presumably the trailer too. Also consider who would do the mod and what examples of previously moded boats can you check out before you hit your with a saw.

Interesting situation this and IMHO your boat length coupled with what you are trying to do and carry makes the question heaps bigger than the motor or prop. Go bigger motor, more weight more hassles.

Just for interest, what size motor was on it way back when it was new?

Cheers
Chimo

[TOPAZ]

Hi All,

Here's another theory.
I've just come across this thread, and have read all six pages so far, and I have had another idea since looking at the photos of the hull,and particularll those of the water flow behind the hull at 5000RPM.
I think that the bottom of the boat has either been repaired, or has developed a less than smooth surface for some reason. It looks a bit that way in the photo looking aft from underneath the boat, and, more particularly, the water stream coming out from under the boat at speed looks quite 'disturbed' and aerated. It should be very smooth that close to the back of the boat - I know it always has been with any boats that I have had. If this is the case, it would explain a lot of the under-revving/over working of both engines, and the higher than expected fuel consumption.

The surface of the hull bottom should be almost mirror-smooth, with no ripples or dents.

Just an idea.


Richard.

[marvin]

:'( My Dream boat 685 cruise craft, another mate bought one 2nd hand, with twin 115hp 4 strokes on the back, it uses less fuel than my 150 does, no comparison in offshore ride between the cc and my old tub.

Wifes dream boat 8mt plate alloy, with yamy 4 stroke. We have 3kids, and paying off a house, as most are, and to find $70 000 to replace the old pride is out of our reach, This is why the $2500 deal was worth trying to repower, Would have to get a loan to do any more to the boat. And thus why we are in a bind.

When I bought my boat, it had twin (old) ?1970 model cryslers on it, both were buggered, then I put a 175 vro v6 evinrude on it, with a new transom and floor, fuel use on that motor was 2.5 lts per mile, the 150 etec gives me 2 lt per mile. The 175 had been rebuilt in the dealer shop before I bought it when it was 4yrs old, it bluew up once after 2yrs, got it rebuilt, then snaped a drive shaft, so put new 2 piece shaft and new gear box cogs in it, 2.5yrs later it blew up again, so this is when I got the etec for reliability and the suposid 1lt a mile economy, just not getting the economy. If I sold it, for say $15000-$20000, I would not get another offshore boat for that price, so just have to put up with what I got I guess....

Topaz, the bit of rough stuff on the end of the hull in the underneath pic is some sikaflex hanging down from around the bung site. The cav plate pics were taken from the side the 2 sounder transducers are on, ? disturbed lines, there are some scrathes and stone chip marks on the hull, but underneath I think it is 98%smooth, No outside hull work has been done on it since I have had the boat for 8 yrs, except polishing the bow and sides. No antifoul, boat was kept in river by previous owner for a couple of yrs before being trailered for 5yrs before I bought it.

[cormorant]

Was the transom rebuilt from teh inside or outside. If from the outside they may have laid up glass over teh back trailing edge of the transom and effectively putting a hook in the hull. Hooks absorb power like you wouldn't believe.

Any stringers done ? If it was bent when the new stringers were laid again it may have a hook


Did they use concrete in the transom rebuild?

8 foot of straightedge along the bottom may pick it.

Part Bouyant pods either side with tabs following of the motor extending hull length if you are carrying heavy weight but it shouldn't be required

Still got to get teh motor propped right otherwise you are going to burn em out by them being overloaded. I'd be using XC100 on teh double oil setting as the motor will be stressed. Small cost to get extra hours out of it and you may go through a few extra plugs .

As noted abobve that is a very dirty wash it is putting out

[Pazz01]

I am no expert, but I would not be too concerned with a 4 blade prop only rev'in to 5200rpm. In my experience with 4 blade props they will get you onto the plane quicker but limit your top end quite a bit.

I have seen 4 blades run on stern drives and a suzuki outboard they limit rpm. But the pulling power out of a four blade is outstanding and will launch you onto the plane quicker than a three blade.

Pazz

[finding_time]

Hi All,

Here's another theory.
I've just come across this thread, and have read all six pages so far, and I have had another idea since looking at the photos of the hull,and particularll those of the water flow behind the hull at 5000RPM.
I think that the bottom of the boat has either been repaired, or has developed a less than smooth surface for some reason. It looks a bit that way in the photo looking aft from underneath the boat, and, more particularly, the water stream coming out from under the boat at speed looks quite 'disturbed' and aerated. It should be very smooth that close to the back of the boat - I know it always has been with any boats that I have had. If this is the case, it would explain a lot of the under-revving/over working of both engines, and the higher than expected fuel consumption.

The surface of the hull bottom should be almost mirror-smooth, with no ripples or dents.

Just an idea.


Richard.


Good idea Richard, but if you look at all the pictures you'll notice that the transducer and pick-ups are on the port side , and the photo's of the motor and water around the stern of the boat are also on the port side.;) I'll bet it's transducer and pick-ups that are effecting water flow on that side!

Ian

[marvin]

I will take some pics this afternoon on the final test run with the 200 from the starboard side.I will take note of the water patterns behind the boat, The rebel 3 blade 15 3/4 x 15 gives best fuel economy per distance / speed followed by the 4 balde 14 1/2 x 15 solas then the viper 3 blade 14 3/4 x 16. The viper uses less fuel has high rpm but is 5-8kts slower in the mid ranges. viper wot 5700, rebel 5200, 4 blade solas 5150 with the 200hp with boat fully loaded up.

[Chimo]

Marvin what were the HPs of the twin Chryslers on it originally please

Thanks
Chimo

[marvin]

Chimo, chryslers were 75 hp each. I did not do any offshore trips with them though, and never worked out fuel economy, speed ect. One had desintigrating electrics and wiring, and on the test run one was running like a billy goat, so I got $500 bucks for them at the wreckers and put on the 175, I'm pretty sure they were the original motors on the boat. Don't have a picture either of them that I can find...

[fishfeeder]

i dont know much about all this but after reading all this thread, does the motor reach top revs with a very light load ???

[cormorant]

If someone from shore / beach could snap a photo of it in the water , stationary, off plane, cruise and wot it may help to see from the side how the boat is running. We are all guessing arse down but may be wrong.

Amazed that motor will pull a 15 3/4 - I didn't think that would fit in under the cav plate.

[marvin]

Will run it this afternoon with just me and 200lts fuel instead of 270lts, nothing else can be removed from the boat, the previous tests were done with 270lts fuel and 4 adults average 90kg each as would be the case when heading offshore for an over nighter. With 2 adults and 270lts fuel on the first run with the dealer it WOT went to 5800rpm, loaded up was 5600-5700, this was with the viper prop though, the only one to get over 5200 rpm. So at 200 rpm between the extra 200kg on board, I would say it is weight related with the viper prop, the others are the same regardless of the weight variation, but I will recheck this this arvo.

[marvin]

If someone from shore / beach could snap a photo of it in the water , stationary, off plane, cruise and wot it may help to see from the side how the boat is running. We are all guessing arse down but may be wrong.

Amazed that motor will pull a 15 3/4 - I didn't think that would fit in under the cav plate.

The rebel 15 3/4 prop has about 2.5mm maybe 3mm gap from the cav plate to the edge of the prop fins.
I will get the pics as suggested this afternoon, cant work out how to post them up for you guys though, will ring jabba to c if he will kindly assist me again with putting them up on the thread.. Probably wont get home from tests until 7ish.

[Chimo]

Hi marvin

Have a read of this, it show how to easily download your resized pics
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=54112

Cheers
Chimo

[Jabba_]

i dont know much about all this but after reading all this thread, does the motor reach top revs with a very light load ???
yes it does, 5800rpm...

[Jabba_]

I recieved more pictures and info From Kevin...

Matt, If you can have a look at these pics and put up on Ausfish what you feel the guys need to make further comment on, I would appreciate that heaps. The stingray did lift the stern well, but the 16” viper cavitated with boat loaded on turns and at times on a slightly side wards acceleration. MMMmmmm didn’t like that much. Viper 4000rpm 20kts 36.1kms 29 lts hr.

With only myself in the boat, it was much lighter and snappier on the take offs and WOT was 5850 36.6 knots 67.7kmphr burning 57 liters of fuel an hour with stingray and viper prop.

The rebel 15 ¾ x 15 again gave best speed at 4000rpm of 25 kts, 45 kms using 30 lt hr but would only pull 5200rpm at WOT with stingray as only alteration. No cavitations with the rebel.

I have a heap of pics, and took note of the water patterns from under the transom, both side looked disturbed (taking into account the transducers on the port side, and nothing but the trim tab plate on the starboard side, but both were not smooth…, and I cannot understand this as the hull seems smooth to touch.

With the extra weight of 150kg of water put into the eskies, the boat was more transom heavy and noticeably more stern down on travelling, when I put the kids (60kg) up the front in the cab, it eased the amount of under trimming need to push the boat along, and I could actually trim it up a bit to counter balance the forward weight.

You would not believe it the front fuel tank has sprung a leak, so this will be an ideal time to move the 70lt front tank as far forward as I can to help balance the boat more evenly. Most likely get one made to fit as an infill to make it all bunk pace up the front end.

I will be out of action 2moro, and will not be able to get on Ausfish for a day or two, to answer any more replies/queries, but should be back on track Saturday or Sunday.
Thanks for your help again, Cheers Kev.
Ps I will send through 2 pics at a time as they are large in size.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/013.jpg

Light load
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/lightload.jpg


There are a coulpe of big eskies full off water to simulate the weight off the extra men and cargo Kev would normaly have onboard
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/boatatrestwithloadonboardsitslevelb.jpg

6kn trolling
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/frontviewslowtrollingspeed.jpg

Full load
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/sideprofilewithloadonboardat4000rpm.jpg

Full load
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/sideprofilewithloadonboardtrimedund.jpg

Full load, cruising speed
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/sideprofilewithloadonboardtrimmedle.jpg

Light load, optimium trim
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/sideprofile4000rpmtrimedupliteload.jpg

Light load, motor trimmed all in
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/sideprofiletrimunderwithtrimtabsdow.jpg


Motor trimmed all in
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/Cavplate.jpg

Motor trimmed all in
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/starboardsideclearerviewoftansomflo.jpg

Motor at optimium trim
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Kevins%20E-tec/starboardsidetransomwashpattern.jpg

[Jabba_]

Looking at these new photos that Kev sent, it show that when the boat is full loaded it is sitting very deap in the water... Same when it is trolling and cruising....

Take the weight out and it looking good on the water....

I'm thinking that this boat is over loaded for its size, and the hull is struggling to get lift and making the motor work harder...

[Chimo]

Agree, looks a very heavy rig. The motor is a long way under even with optimum trim. Would a Raker work better, as the motor could go up another hole at least, it would run higher in the water than the Viper without cavitation on turns etc.

If all the gear needs to go it would go better in a bigger, longer boat probably with the same HP !

If all else fails it might be time to take every thing (excluding fuel tanks) out and really question what goes back in. Maybe one or two less big blokes would help heaps ie 200 kgs or one drum of fuel.

Cheers
Chimo

PS I said it before in an earlier post and I'll say it again now, if you cut it across a few meters forward of the transom and inserted another few meters of hull it could well perform like a seaworthy boat.

Theres just not enough boat there given what you are trying to do with it. Our learned Sydney member C makes a good point about freeboard etc. I'd hate lose somone at sea and have to face a court and explain what I was doing offshore in an overloaded etc etc boat. Sorry to be unkind but having had to deal with this duty of care stuff for many years I get a little tense.

[Jabba_]

There my exact thoughts Chimo...

[cormorant]

Yep Pretty much the same thoughts here as well Photos don't lie. The motor seems low still -

They aren't exactly a thin boat so I am still a bit surprised the extra weight is making it sit so deep in the water. Id there a couple of hundred kilos of lead in there? Not sure how it reacts in a following swell or at rest but I have a dislike for low freeboard - has nearly led to a swim before with some hectic bailing.. Have a read about the recent coronors report about the AB diver and first mate

Marv I hope those photos scare you a bit as it is overloaded. Ya sure teh Columbian drug runners didn't leave something in the hull?


I hae seen that exact hull with reasoable weight in it before and don't remember it sitting so low.

Any chance you can do wil less fuel on board when you are going out as it will give you better ecconomy and ride.

Without the weight and trimmed properly it looks a different boat and I bet it feels like one as well.

There was a kiwi designer doing small foils outside the line of the transom which worked a treat until you stopped.

[Steeler]

I can't believe how low the bow sits in the water!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Steve

[marvin]

Agree, looks a very heavy rig. The motor is a long way under even with optimum trim. Would a Raker work better, as the motor could go up another hole at least, it would run higher in the water than the Viper without cavitation on turns etc.

If all the gear needs to go it would go better in a bigger, longer boat probably with the same HP !

If all else fails it might be time to take every thing (excluding fuel tanks) out and really question what goes back in. Maybe one or two less big blokes would help heaps ie 200 kgs or one drum of fuel.

Cheers
Chimo

PS I said it before in an earlier post and I'll say it again now, if you cut it across a few meters forward of the transom and inserted another few meters of hull it could well perform like a seaworthy boat.

Theres just not enough boat there given what you are trying to do with it. Our learned Sydney member C makes a good point about freeboard etc. I'd hate lose somone at sea and have to face a court and explain what I was doing offshore in an overloaded etc etc boat. Sorry to be unkind but having had to deal with this duty of care stuff for many years I get a little tense.

Thanks for the advice on the weight of the boat, I will strip it fully next week, and put in only what I need, will look at eskys, mite be able to put one in the cabin, and replace the two behind the helm with pedistall chairs... Need something to put the fish in though, and I like to have more ice than not enough to look after the catch when we get in to them.

The motor is on the highest hole, ? should I drill another 2 bolt holes and lift it higher, the bottom slide hole has about 1.5cm left in height space. What size Raker would you suggest if I went that way??

The missus has said no more spending on the boat.. getting a bit twitchy with suggestions of $5000 modifications to hull and trailer... will lighten the load as much as I can, and see how the 200 pushes hte boat offshore.

I Did up some fuel burn calculations kms to liter and average with the 150hp was .9km per 1liter at 4000rpm, the 200hp is 1.26km per liter with the 16" viper at 4000rpm. So for a 50 nauticle mile or 90 km day trip I should save 27 liters of fuel, or $35 a trip. 30 trips a yr saves $1050 on fuel use, and hopefully the oil burn will be less than the 150hp with the 200 not working as hard.

Who does the boat extensions?? just so I can put the facts and costings to the boss when the time is right??;)

[Jabba_]

I have added a new picture off Marvins Boat in my post above... It is resting shot with a light load, note how much higher it floats on the water...

[Chimo]

Probably lighten the ship before you do much more to the motor / props etc IMHO.

The trouble with cutting and pasteing a boat is that you need a new trailer too. The other thing you cannot afford is a divorce.

Gavsgonefishing did his boat after he got it back after it was stolen http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=116497 and then he really did it againie lenghtened it etc and he seemed to love it. Was a really interesting thread but I cannot find the last thread (help please anyone?) so Marvin can see it.

Did you chase up Yan about your prop etc? It would be interesting to see what he makes of it especially with all the data pluss the pics and actual gross weight of boat, motor, fuel, ice, three eskies?, crew, spare crew, anchors and cahain and warp, kitchen sinks and spare kithen sinks (sorry I'm being unkind) but if you do founder close to an island with whats in the boat you may be able to establish a new nation. Better throw in a few women too.

We await the next stage in the saga.

Cheers
Chimo

[Chimo]

Jabba

Can you find the last thread that Gav did on the massive chop and rebuild of his cat?

Chimo

[Jabba_]

Thanks for the advice on the weight of the boat, I will strip it fully next week, and put in only what I need, will look at eskys, mite be able to put one in the cabin, and replace the two behind the helm with pedistall chairs... Need something to put the fish in though, and I like to have more ice than not enough to look after the catch when we get in to them.

The motor is on the highest hole, ? should I drill another 2 bolt holes and lift it higher, the bottom slide hole has about 1.5cm left in height space. What size Raker would you suggest if I went that way??



Well were getting somewhere with your rig, under powered and over weight, no wonder fuel economy was dreadfull.. I recon with a trip to Jenny Craig, 1.6km/1lt is achievable and maybe 1.7-1.8 with just your wife and kids...

Dont drill any new holes, it turn your transom into swiss cheese...

Cheapest alternative is to have a 25mm spacer plate made, bolt it to your transom and have new engine bolts redrilled into the space plate that have a 75mm higher off-set then your origanil bolts..... Does that make any sence...


This is a photo off my spacer plate I had made to raise my engine an extra 30mm.. Note how the top transom bolt is as high as the transom itself..
You can also see the origanil location off the transom bolts that are now used to hold the spacer plate on... You could call that spacer a jacking plate.....
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/jabba1/Transomoff-setplate003.jpg

[Chimo]

Marvin

Found it; Check this out> ! http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=141890

Cheers
Chimo

[Jabba_]

Jabba

Can you find the last thread that Gav did on the massive chop and rebuild of his cat?

Chimo

Not sure about Gavs, but Business Class chopped and extended his Hydrofoil 1mt

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=150417

[surveyor]

so whats the deal on a 225 honda i in the market at the moment cheers

ps the boat looks sweet actually ,nice hull lines what are they similar to
pps great prop stats thanks for sharing and glad you are happy now

[marvin]

Hi guys, I have read the full threads on both the hull modifications, Great outcomes, I will go check out the local fibreglass guru here who has done heaps of full pod extensions and I will check my options.
I am wondering if the transom has wet rot or dry rot in it and is water logged??, I lost a trim tab plate from the screws pulling out a while back, and am thinking this should never have occured if the wood and glass transom was solid.... I put a new transducer on recently and the drill brought out damp timber not dry shaving threads like I would have expected, I got a fibreglass guy around to check the transom immediately and he tapped it all over with his hammer and said it won't come off, she's jake.?? Maybe I need a second opinion.
The 17" viper I tried with boat loaded gave better kms to litres with 1.32km per liter at 4000rpm, and 6 kmshr faster, but would only WOT at 5350rpm, had reduced cavitation, and went like a rocket when lightly loaded, where as the 16" viper would still WOT over 5600rpm, but give 1.2km per liter, should I stick with the 16 so that the motor is not working as hard and in keeping in the optimum operating range with the WOT rpm improve oil consuption too, I needed to run the 16" at 350rpm higher to accheive same speed as the 17" was producing.

[Chimo]

Hi Kevin aka Marvin


Instead of worrying about props at the moment.................

If you love your boat and are going to keep it ...........

and from what you say about your transom, ie wet wood / damp timber / things pulling out if it were my boat I would take the opportunity to have an appropriate skilled operator revisit the state of your hull transom.

If as I suspect from your comments you have a rot / degraded transom now is the time to do a rebuild.

Again if it were mine and I was going to keep it I'd seriously consider the options of a suitable pod and also consider if you might lengthen the hull a meter or so at the same time.

The thread that Jabba linked us too is a great example of what is possible and also the bloke who does such work and does it well.

If you do up the hull odds are you will have to extend the trailer and slide the axles back to keep the weigh distribution satisfactory.

Interesting cost benefit comparison coming up as the next part of this thread me thinks! Do it up, maybe go up motor size , or not, vs another boat all of this while avoiding divorce::)

Cheers
Chimo

[marvin]

Thanks Chimo, WIll make full assesment this week of all things concerned. The marvin is for Margie and Kevin. See all things must be agreed between the two of us, even my ausfish name..LOL.

[marvin]

Full boat width pod 700mm in length, new full height transom board where current transom ends, old wash well cut out to give an extra 500mm deck space, with a new glassed in shelf system at the back for batteries and oil bottle, and enough clearance on top for a live well to slot in. Can't be done for 2 months, estimated price is $5000. That's with me dropping it off and picking it up when all finished and painted up to match the current hull.

I would have to remove trim tabs, transducers, deck wash pickup, and motor, then refit these after pod is completed. Would make the boat from a 6.2mt to a 6.9mt with the pod giving excellent rear floatation, more fishing room, and I hope that the 200 etec small block should be suitable to push it still??

The fibreglass guy said with a 70cm extension, no one has extended their trailers, and he has never had one returned that has cracked, or had any problems and all pods done this way have proven to be a vast improvement on the boats performance.

I rang one local guy with a 6.8mt haines encore, that had a factory 1/4 pod, that this guy closed in to make a full width pod, and fuel economy improved as did offshore handling and transom lift, he took off his permatrim and raised the motor 2 holes, he is very happy with workmanship and end product.
Haven't told the missus the quote price yet...:-[

[Chimo]

Good luck with that

The best approach would be to tell her you have checked out a replacement boat to do all that is required and even thought its second hand we can get it for just $76,000 (Go more Ks if you wish?) less $1?K insert your geusitmtaed trade in value.

Wait for the fire works to subside then tell he about the alternative of $5 k

Shell love your frugality? and your Saturday nites will be re-instated.::) :-*

Cheers
Chimo

PS Works for me................8-)

[finding_time]

And dont let her read the last 4 posts!!!!!;) ;D ;D ;D

I think doing the transom and poding it is a great idea, there is no real downside and the 200 will still be heaps of power!

[Smithy]

Kev,

didn't follow this thread originally and didn't know it was you but just read it all from start to finish. Dunno what to do. Maybe get a 2nd opinion on the transom and see if it is all good. If not, that is your chance to go podded and new transom layout with live bait tank and all that if Margie agrees. If not, I'd just be using it as is.

Before doing what I do now I know what it is like getting crewies to put their hands in their pockets to cough up for splitting costs at the end of a day. Based on your figures if you are saving them $35 a trip off the total by doing the repower you are going to see your $2,500 back in two years and keep your crewies happy it sounds like the 200 is the way to go. The other guys are suggesting taking less people out to keep the weight down but I know where you are coming from having 4 aboard splitting the costs. That is the reality that lets you fish more so you are just going to have to stick at that. Can you cut down on the cost of ice and bait? Freeze your own ice cream containers of block ice or cordial containers you can refreeze? What about bait? When runs of mullet are on drag net or cast net a heap. When the yakkas are about do a day just jigging yakkas only with the kids and freeze them down in ziplock or cryovac bags in quantities enough for each reef trip. I pretty much never buy bait. I am always using my left over bonito, slimey mackerel and yakkas I jig the day before as I pretty much 100% always have live bait aboard.

The one comment I will make is back to Skusto is yes foils still help heaps, even with trim tabs. I just repowered from a 140 Johnuki to a 150 Yamaha 4 stroke through Brisbane Yamaha Burpengary. I am up 600ccs and it sure feels like it for only 20 extra kgs on the bum. In the river I pulled 33.5knots up from 28knots top speed and pulled 5,800rpm. WOT I am using 61l/h. It was very sensitive to wind and prop torque but leapt on the plane compared to the 140. I am running a 16" high rake Solas thanks to Steve Evans down there as we backtraded my 17" Saturn I think it was on the 140.

The next day offshore was with Scott Hillier and one camerman. The boat felt very slappy in the nose, to counter that I had to use full intrim, I then threw heaps of water around wetting the windscreen as a squall went through and it was quite sloppy. I could feel the weight on the back at low planning speed and I was on and off the throttle to keep it on the plance like old school deep Vs at low planing speeds. It was also super sensative to prop torque and heeling over due to the wind and stuff. I wasn't happy with it other than the extra horsepower. That afternoon I put my LZ Lazilas foils on which I like to see how it would go.

The next morning I was out with 3 customers aboard and out of the rivermouth into Mooloolaba bay I gave it a blat as it was dead calm in the bay with SW winds and I still pulled 5,700rpm but I was too busy trimming at that speed to look at speed or fuel flow but I was hooting along. The old boat was back. Handling was how it was with the 140, just I had a lot more get up and go. I reckon my fuel consumption got better too. In the slop without the foils the day before, on and off the throttle into the crap I was getting down into the 0.6Nm/l area. With the foils I was only down to 0.7Nm/l in the rough but normal cruise was 0.8Nm/l or so. In the river testing I was able to get 1.0Nm/l at 20knots for 20 litres an hour but offshore in real conditions I have a ultra slow cruise of 3,300rpm for 19l/h but it is mostly 3,700rpm for 21l/h.

I only have the smallest Bennet trim tabs, the M80s I think. To pop on the plane I use full engine intrim then tab any heel out then use engine trim to set myself up depending on whether it is downsea or upsea. I have found the foils have just made everything happen at a slower pace. They let you keep on the plane at that important speed of 11-13knots in the rough without playing with the throttle too much. They just slowed everything down as without them it felt like heel and trim were on a knife edge. The boat is drier again and I don't feel the weight on the back anymore. So far I am stoked with the 150. They are a nice bit of gear. I think it is quieter and has a meatier roar about it on the plane.

[odes20]

This thread just keeps getting more interesting!

Like others I have read it all and appreciating all the effort and support to marvin. It raises a question for me about my Yalta Odessa 2000. pushed by a Suki 175 4 stroke. I call it the beast. It is truly an amazing donk. Im happy with the rig and all but have thought a few times about putting a pod on to gaina little dack space and then maybe some improved stability / length thru the water.
MY QUESTION IS
Does a pod have an optimum width to be effective for bouyancy and stability, and should it be right down to the existing keel ?

[marvin]

I have asked about the pod makeups, local fibreglass guy has got them down pat apparantly, has boats being towed down from Mackay to have his pod system fitted, Full width of boat to the keel was said to be the only way to get even and effective floatation which is often the reasons a pod is fitted, not just for more deck room usually. He makes them 70cm long for boats of the 6-6.5mt mark like mine. A local guy had just the alloy pod bolted on the back, terrible performance, then got it closed in to the water line, was better, now has it closed in the full width on his 680 haines and said it is a totally better boat now, better economy, better ride, and has taken off his permatrim. So buy that experience the full width pod to the keel seems to have my vote. Missus said no more to be spent on the boat! So I may never get to know what a pod would do for my boat:'( .

Will not give up on pestering her though.....;)

I have taken out everything from the cabin of the boat and all storage compartments have been emptied, I took out the toilet, and put in a plastic bed pan, removed 4kg of lead sinkers, pulled out the 4 blankets from under the bunks, that were wet from the kids leaving the side windows open, refined the tool kit, took out the extra porta gas stove that I didn't know was in the other cupboard, along witht the 3 spare gas tins, cleaned up the first aid kit and made it smaller and put it in a lighter weight container, pulled out 4 spare 1000mt spools of 8kg line from the last gamefishing comp (incase we got spooled 4 times...), plus the spare spottlight, and a few other tid bits, so I guess so far this has added up to about 40kg of unneccassary weight that was in the boat. I am redesigning the front fuel tank and hope to make it 120lt instead of 70lts, by going longer and then higher in an L shape up the nose to move the weight further forward, then only have 50lts or so reserve in the rear tank instead of it being full at 150lts thus this should help with the ride and stern lift by having the weight distributed more evenly. (I Am allowed to replace the front tank as it has developed a fumey smell with the seams of the old Stainless tank noticed to be weeping when air was pressurised into it since last trip). Still haven't had it out on the blue water yet with the 200 to do the true testing sea trials. Maybe end of next week. Best wishes smithy with your new power plant, lets hope it returns you and all onboard back home safely every time. Cheers Kev.

[marvin]

The next part as predicted earlier.....What are your thoughts on getting the following done to my boat; removing trim tabs that are on a "curved transom" that sit offset to the parallell run of the hull.
Having the bottom 20cm of the transom cut out and replaced as this is possibly where the water logging may be, then having the transom squared up where the tabs will go back on. Thats option one. New bottom of transom and trim tabs fitted paralell to the hull, boat same length. $200.

Option 2 is to have the bottom transom repair done as above but instead of just squaring up the back where the tabs mount, add on two pods 60cm long by 60cm wide by 50cm high, running off the hulls bottom edge and from the outside of the side of the boat in 60cm towards the middle, then mount the tabs onto the back of these pods.

This should give transom lift and assist with the transom down attitude during travel. Leaving the motor on the transom as it is now and extending the boat like a cat either side of the motor, similar to the polycrafts but with a bigger pod on each side is the idea. I can get this repair work done this week, $600 after much bartering and offers of reef trips to test it with the repairer. That price is including marine suitable painting of the pods and non skid deck paint ontop of the two pod/duck board tops.
I am unsure what this will do to the performance with having the hull extend past the motor by two feet on each side. Any advice asap would be great, ph 0408 848 564 if appropriate. cheers Kev.

[cormorant]

truthfully it is a mystery bag and always better to find a sistership to see how it performs before cutting up your own hull or spending on attaching things

If you can't find a sistership you need to trust the bloke doing the work and know he won't leave you with a dog and walk away

I think 1m seems like a lot of bouyancy , work out the volume of that will be underwater and see how large rnumber it its as the boat.

Motor pods add to waterline length , side pods are different and react differently.

[marvin]

can anyone else offer me some advice on the side pods in question on last post page 8, thanks Kev.

[Chimo]

Hi Kev

Do you mean you want to do something like these on the back of yours? and then put trim tabs on the back of them?

No trim tabs on mine yet but they are only on a ten foot tinny8-)

Plenty of extra lift with approx 35 lt bouyancy on each side and the tinny seems to behave more like a 12 footer. The back floats higher and it seems to run flatter. Haven't run all that far or fast yet but seems good so far.

Cheers
Chimo

[marvin]

Yes like the pods on your tiny is the idea, except mine is on a 6.2mt fibreglass half cab offshore boat. The fibreglass guy said he would continue the hull bottom evenly to the back of the pods, and match them up to the side contours so it looks like an extension of the current boat styles/lines, and then have an inspection port in the top of each pod. My Bennetts Trim tabs would be fitted onto the rear of the pods that are currently on the transom. 60cm long x 60cm wide x 45-50cm high. I'm not to cluey on calculating the volume of the pods, failed maths at junior high, probably because I was always fishing :-)

[Chimo]

Hi Kev

You would add approx 180lt bouyancy to each side. ie 360 lt total less a bit as they are not under the water just floating on it more or less.

If you want to see the effect get youself a couple of those blue plastic 200 lt drums, add 20 litres of water to each then seal the bung and lash one to each back corner of the boat and back it into the drink.

That should give you a good idea of the impact they will have.

Cheers
Chimo

PS

Had a think about it since and it would be easier to try it if the drums were held from dropping down each side towards the rear of the boat with a loop that went around them and over top of the gunnel. This is just to hold them while you run lines to have them add bouyancy to the boat.

Then run a tight loop towards the rear of the port drum and under the boat and around the rear end of the starboard drum. Repeat with another tight loop at the front ends of the drums to hold them in place when you gently launch the boat and with a bit of luck you should get an idea of what the extra bouyancy could do to the boat.

Waiting to hear the results8-)

[marvin]

We just got our house valued, and looking at redrawing on the home loan for some credit card tidy ups and possibly some work on the old horse, after looking at new hulls and trailers, and good second hand setups over the last 2 weeks, the $45000 minimum upgrade price is making the $5000 new pod and transom looking pretty good. I think the missus is weakening slowly.....;)

[cormorant]

This is not financial advice, I am not a advisor disclaim disclaim disclaim etc etc etc
You probably know all this anyway , so just ignore it.

I have seen many people get into trouble rolling over loans for all the wrong reasons especially with credit card debt.

Tidy up credit cards - fine. Only works if you stop spending on them and you save some interest. If you continue spending on them and not paying down debt it is a bad habit to get into. Best way to beat the credit card cycle is to pay them out and not use them , increase extra payment amount on home loan ( so you don't have free cash in your pocket) and pay out faster than if you had left teh debt accumulating in the CC.

It is suicide financially to buy things on credit card that will last 5 years ( washing machine) and then roll it over to a housing loan that has a 30 year term. You end up paying for a item and interest on it for 25 years while the item was at the dump.

Banks earn their living by getting you to spend by allowing you credit and then charging you interest and hoping you never pay down the principal amount.

Simple answer is - Never buy a item on credit you can't pay off in the products useful lifetime in full , all interest , all principal, all running costs. If you do the truth is you can't really afford teh item to start with.

Owning a item is not simply paying off interest as all you are doing is renting it and still wearing teh depreciation of the asset.

If you do roll over into a drawdown into the housing loan , quarantine that amount of money to pay it down in a short period ( principal and interest) in line with it's useful life

Interest rates accoring to financial press have a expected rise of up to 2% in the next 3 years - that is a hell of a lot

With extra debt load I see friends get caught out as soon as they have any employment issues , unexpected health issues or added expenses in their lives.


As for the mods to the boat - I am still a bit mystified by it's performance as it definately seems overloaded for it's waterline length. Too smaller boat and too bigger load and unbalanced too boot. They didn't ride like that from new in my opinion. Someone on here must know of the same hull , or see one on the water who could get a fellow owners performance figures and way it sits at rest and on the plane.

Trying to do too much with the wrong boat can lead to real safety issues when the weather turns to crap or something goes wrong. Unless their is a urgency I would try and find a sistership with a similar modification to confirm the finished result would suit your requirements.

As for upgrade to another boat - time and patience will see the right boat come up priced correctly and you sound like you now have a good motor you could transfer on to it

Modified boats often have poor resale even if they perform well. If you go ahead with the mods I would photo document it heaps and have a full inventory of materials used and their application and pay a qualified marine surveyor to check and ovesee the process and document it.

Good luck with it all and I am just offering a alternative opinion and not trying to be negative.

[honda900]

This thread just keeps getting more interesting!

Like others I have read it all and appreciating all the effort and support to marvin. It raises a question for me about my Yalta Odessa 2000. pushed by a Suki 175 4 stroke. I call it the beast. It is truly an amazing donk. Im happy with the rig and all but have thought a few times about putting a pod on to gaina little dack space and then maybe some improved stability / length thru the water.
MY QUESTION IS
Does a pod have an optimum width to be effective for bouyancy and stability, and should it be right down to the existing keel ?


Odes20,

the new Odessa models have a pod factory fitted.

http://www.marinetune.com/new-boats/new-boats_detail.asp?ID=232


Regards
HOnda.

[marvin]

Well well, the visit to the bank was not very enjoyable, the new boat latest idea the 6.5mt Yalta with brand new trailer, (thanks Honda900) bimini, side clears, live bait tank, deck wash ect, with keeping my 200hp, gps/sounder compass, interior lights, vhf and selling the bare boat 6.2mt pride and trailer for say $8000, the change over would be $27000. This sounded good to me to go a new 6.5mt glass boat and new trailer with a 3yo 200etec covered by the 3yr extended warranty. But the bank man thought otherwise. Have to pay off the cards, and change the way we live. Thanks Comorant for your comments, as you said, if you can't pay for it with cash you probably shouldn't have it.

So from earlier posts, the $5000 pod idea is probably the best and safest option for my pride. I have removed the trim tabs, sounder transducers, deck wash pickup, and will book it in to the outboard shop for motor removal next week. I have taken some pics at the start of the project and will post the transom remodelling up in future posts. I have a 4 week wait on the glass work to be started, so should be able to save a few hundred towards the price of the reno by not going fishing during this time....:'(

Also we have cancelled the Karumba trip in July and will not make it to the Boyne Tannum Hookup this year either. :'(

The 1770 m & G is now our planned holiday this year, so that will be what I am looking forward to., will have the boat all sorted well and truely by then hopefully.

If anyone can better the $5000 transom full width pod modifications, please let me know asap....

Will put up a heap of pics when the project is completed. Until then, if anyone is bringing a boat to Bundy and needs a crewy, give me a call please. Cheers Kev.

[Jarrah Jack]

That comorant fellow is one smart dude I reckon. A few years ago that bankman would've been throwing the money around so its good to see some sound advice from him too. Good luck with the cheaper alternative.

[Steve B]

Well well, the visit to the bank was not very enjoyable, the new boat latest idea the 6.5mt Yalta with brand new trailer, (thanks Honda900) bimini, side clears, live bait tank, deck wash ect, with keeping my 200hp, gps/sounder compass, interior lights, vhf and selling the bare boat 6.2mt pride and trailer for say $8000, the change over would be $27000. This sounded good to me to go a new 6.5mt glass boat and new trailer with a 3yo 200etec covered by the 3yr extended warranty. But the bank man thought otherwise. Have to pay off the cards, and change the way we live. Thanks Comorant for your comments, as you said, if you can't pay for it with cash you probably shouldn't have it.

So from earlier posts, the $5000 pod idea is probably the best and safest option for my pride. I have removed the trim tabs, sounder transducers, deck wash pickup, and will book it in to the outboard shop for motor removal next week. I have taken some pics at the start of the project and will post the transom remodelling up in future posts. I have a 4 week wait on the glass work to be started, so should be able to save a few hundred towards the price of the reno by not going fishing during this time....:'(

Also we have cancelled the Karumba trip in July and will not make it to the Boyne Tannum Hookup this year either. :'(

The 1770 m & G is now our planned holiday this year, so that will be what I am looking forward to., will have the boat all sorted well and truely by then hopefully.

If anyone can better the $5000 transom full width pod modifications, please let me know asap....

Will put up a heap of pics when the project is completed. Until then, if anyone is bringing a boat to Bundy and needs a crewy, give me a call please. Cheers Kev.

Oh well Kevvie!!

Hey the horse will be a new boat once she's done, it will be good mate. We still on for 1770?? I cant wait to test the 200 too. I got my leave changes in to rosters the other day. Should be right. Leave pass from the true love is sorted too. Give me a yell if ya wanna come up here for a fishing fix while the horse is in drydock! I got a few little jack spots up north of here you will like!

Steve

PS thanks to all the blokes who have helped Kev, its been a big ordeal for him!

[marvin]

The boat went to the fibreglass shop yesterday, delayed by 2 weeks due to the rain, I have decided that the boat has been getting us to the fishing spots for the last 12 years I have owned the boat, so minimial expence will be spent on the old hull to keep her on the water. I am having the bottom half of the transom cut out, and replaced with solid new timber and glass. Where the Bennetts trim tabs fit on, I am having the hull squared up so that the tab plates are parralell to the side, as previously they have been on a curved transom and I have had 2 pull out. I have not gone with the pod extension or side pods, as I could not find enough information or previous experinece with them to say they are a good thing offshore. So with the repairs to the old hull happening at a minimum cost to make it cost effective, safe and as secure as possible without overcapitalising on the old rig I should be back on the water in a few weeks. When it came down to it, Adding 70cm to the hull at a total cost of $6000 did not seem to be the right thing to do. I have taken out all the excess weight from the boat, and will be adding in some foam floatation to the hull when the transom is cut out. Hopefully some Pictures to follow as the work is undertaken. I still haven't had the 200hp etec on an offshore run yet.. but won't be long.....

[marvin]

Well it's been about 2 months since the transom tidy up project was begun. Yesterday I fitted the tabs and transducers back on, after a terrible run with the rainy weather and some disappointing fibreglass workmanship. I have spent about $1300 on the old girl, with a new fuel tank up front to help with the weight distribution, and have pretty much the same boat as I did before it went in, except for some new timber in the tail end and a slap of paint on the transom that has runs in it.... Three goes they had at making some transom wedges for the trimtabs to be screwed into to bring the wings of the M120 tabs more parrallel to the keel, in the end, I told them to cut off the mess they had attempted the first 2 times and start again, very dissipointing. Even after they had me over for another inspection prior to final glassing, they still finished it off wrong. Time to go fishing..... I still haven't run the 200 etec in the salty stuff yet, thankfully a mate has taken me out in his 685 cruise craft for a couple of trips to keep me sane. Will let you guys know how the 200hp performs off shore when I get the chance to head east. cheers Kev.

[Jabba_]

Hurry up Kev, the suspense is killing me...

Pitty about the shoddy workmanship..

[marvin]

[quote=Jabba_;1156184]Hurry up Kev, the suspense is killing me...

Hi all, Well the last 2 weekends in Bundy have given fair weather to allow the 200hp etec to be tested offshore. I have a Viper 16 pitch prop on it, as from all the testing this is the only prop I treid that would allow the 5600rpm wot. First run was with 280lts of fuel, 4 blokes, 10kg bait, 60kg ice and a few rods was to the 19 nautical mile spot with a slightly following sea, under one meter, used 40lts of fuel to get to the 19 mile spot. (about 5lts better than the 150hp would have used).

Then we travelled another 65 nautical miles on the back tank in glassy conditions at 26kts and used 130lts to fill it. (about 10-13lts better than the 150) So 2 litres per one nautical mile seems to be the average.

This weekend JUST gone, travelled 26 nautical miles out in calm seas at 24kts, then the return trip was into a 1.8mt head on ssw sea with 20kts wind making white caps and rollers for the first 13 miles heading back in, travelling at only 9.2kts. After we were in a bit closer picked up travelling speed to 16kts for the remainding 13 miles and fueled up using 104lts for the 52 nautical mile trip.

With a variety of sea conditions encountered in the two weekends that we usually get here, the average is 2lts per 1 nautical mile, oil use seems marginally less than the 150 etec would have used.

So from this, maybe slightly better economy and slightly less oil use than the 150hp.

The starter motor jammed up at 0130hrs in the black of night on the last trip, the little cog that gets thrown up to engage the fly wheel to turn the motor over jammed on the thread, so that was a fun exercise hanging over the transom removing the whole starter motor and then disassembling it and freeing up the jamed thread and small sprocket. Good old xd100 oil lubed it up enough to get it going for the rest of the trip, had some fine burring on the spiral part of the little shaft, and it was dry as a bone. Discussed the jamming issue with local dealer, and a new starter assembly is waiting there for fitting on Monday for me, so I guess I have $274 for part and fitting fee out of the additional warranty that came with the 200hp allready. Still a terrible feeling when you turn the key and the donk doesn't jump to life!

It was good though to get back on the water, and it looks like I will still have to work the occasional overtime shift to fuel her up.

[Jabba_]

Good to hear from you Kev,

Bummer about the start motor, I have also recently learnt to keep the gear drive and shaft greased, mine started to run on a bit (thats what it sounded like)... had it greasd when it was service... All good now..