Fish sizes in Competitions

[mylestom]

Should undersize fish be allowed to be counted in a Competition.

Ie. Undersize Bream or Barra or whatever.

Some competitions don't allow and others do. What is your opinion.

Regards

Trev

[shrunken pojie]

Yes in catch and release comps. Definately not in weigh in ones.

[Bear001]

Yes in catch and release comps. Definately not in weigh in ones.


my thoughts exactly

[Willow1]

Never should be allowed in weighin comps. A Club I am in set their min limits 1cm above any legal limit to weighin.

[tailorboi99]

I think not because they aren't a legal size. However, if the competition is a CNR one and the fish are scarce then yes they should be allowed.

Thanks Tom

[mookyandlumpy]

what is the laws about having undersize fish in your boat??
dead or alive is there any difference under the law ???

[NAGG]

I'm undecided

I fish in Catch & release barra comps where undersized fish are allowed (they get measured / photographed) then let go ........ no dramas

A bass or bream comp ....... you put them in a live well & you weigh them in later - These fish must be legal length & bag limits apply - You have these fish in possession so you are obliged to follow the regs ...... no dramas

More than happy to have both

Chris

[Lucky_Phill]

NO,

illegal or undersize fish " in possession " is against the law. Doesn't matter if it's in a live well, esky or lunch box :o

Can you direct me to a website or organisation that allows undersize fish to be weighed in, that you mentioned.


Cheers phill
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[sleepygreg]

In any C & R comps I have entered....ALL fish have to legal length to be counted....its a bit like allowing out of season fish to be counted because they were released.....

My opinion....if it is to be counted in a comp whether weigh in or C & R...it must be legal...length and seasonal. I also have been involved in club that set acceptable comp lengths above the 'legal' length. Have caught many murray cod, out of season, in the southern dams when fishing comps for other fish, but they are not allowed even though they were released. I would like to see an ABT competitor explain to the TV audience why he had an undersize bream/bass in his livewell..even though he planned to release it....when if joe public had one in his livewell he would be prosecuted for it. (which is why you dont see them with undersize/out of season fish at the weigh in).

Keep it legal and keep it real.

Greg

[Bear001]

In any C & R comps I have entered....ALL fish have to legal length to be counted....its a bit like allowing out of season fish to be counted because they were released.....

My opinion....if it is to be counted in a comp whether weigh in or C & R...it must be legal...length and seasonal. I also have been involved in club that set acceptable comp lengths above the 'legal' length. Have caught many murray cod, out of season, in the southern dams when fishing comps for other fish, but they are not allowed even though they were released. I would like to see an ABT competitor explain to the TV audience why he had an undersize bream/bass in his livewell..even though he planned to release it....when if joe public had one in his livewell he would be prosecuted for it. (which is why you dont see them with undersize/out of season fish at the weigh in).

Keep it legal and keep it real.

Greg

maybe I should clarify my yes......only in the instance of comps where you measure/photograph then immediately release the fish. Not to keep in live-well for weigh in. (before you all harp on about 'in possession' of undersize fish..blah blah.....surely you must sometimes have to measure fish that are close to legal to determine if they go back)

Just my personal opinion....thanks guys. ;D

[NAGG]

In any C & R comps I have entered....ALL fish have to legal length to be counted....its a bit like allowing out of season fish to be counted because they were released.....

My opinion....if it is to be counted in a comp whether weigh in or C & R...it must be legal...length and seasonal. I also have been involved in club that set acceptable comp lengths above the 'legal' length. Have caught many murray cod, out of season, in the southern dams when fishing comps for other fish, but they are not allowed even though they were released. I would like to see an ABT competitor explain to the TV audience why he had an undersize bream/bass in his livewell..even though he planned to release it....when if joe public had one in his livewell he would be prosecuted for it. (which is why you dont see them with undersize/out of season fish at the weigh in).

Keep it legal and keep it real.

Greg

Greg ..... you should never see an undersized fish in an ABT bream or bass competitors live well ....... They have to be fork length measured & be a minimum legal length to be included ( so actually they will be well over the minimum legal length)

As for the ABT barra comps ...... you are able to score an undersized fish - but that is purely because you only photograph it on the measuring mat ( & with the angler) Then you put it straight back into the water .......... At the end of the session it goes on your catch sheet & the photos.

Chris

[Axl]

NO,

illegal or undersize fish " in possession " is against the law. Doesn't matter if it's in a live well, esky or lunch box :o

Can you direct me to a website or organisation that allows undersize fish to be weighed in, that you mentioned.


Cheers phill
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I have to agree with Lucky_Phill here NO!!

[nigelr]

Hey mylestom, hope y'all had a fine X'mas.
In regards your ques, definitely not, under any circumstances.
I have no experience as a comp fisho, it has never really interested me to be honest, but I can't believe this is even an issue given the laws in regards to undersize fish in possesion.....
Is this an issue with the upcoming PB?
Cheers mate.

[mylestom]

Hey mylestom, hope y'all had a fine X'mas.
In regards your ques, definitely not, under any circumstances.
I have no experience as a comp fisho, it has never really interested me to be honest, but I can't believe this is even an issue given the laws in regards to undersize fish in possesion.....
Is this an issue with the upcoming PB?
Cheers mate.

Nigel,

Great christmas and no problems.

No probs with PB as I have written and updated the regulations for the comp as per the previous 7 years. Also passed with the fisheries.
Fished a few comps and won the odd one or two and have personal thoughts, but would like to see where the thread goes.

Tnks mate

Regards
Trev

[Horse]

A definite NO

You should never encourage anglers to target undersize fish. They often have varied habitats and behavour compared to mature fish and can be targeted by different techniques. Remember that depending on species and other conditions mortality of C&R fish can be around 50%. It may be as low as 5 or 10% but that is still a lot of pressure on the resource

[stevej]

technically you pull i ton board you have a undersized fish in your possession.

so basically no as you have to release undersized fish immediately
its a comp if you cant catch legal fish refine tactics, not going to die or self implode if you have to hand a catch sheet in with nothing on it

[NAGG]

A definite NO

You should never encourage anglers to target undersize fish. They often have varied habitats and behavour compared to mature fish and can be targeted by different techniques. Remember that depending on species and other conditions mortality of C&R fish can be around 50%. It may be as low as 5 or 10% but that is still a lot of pressure on the resource

Now ..... this is most certainly a downside of allowing undersized fish in barra comps........ not so much the survival rate ( pretty good for barra anyway) .... but undersized barra can be easier to target & competitors aim to fill their bag & then upgrade ! - so while within the regs , maybe it shouldn't be :(

Chris

[the gecko]

According to DPI, it is illegal to photograph an undersized (or out of season) fish on a brag mat, before releasing it. Any comps that encourage this practice are setting a bad example.

I once spoke to a DPI officer, and asked him if I could take a pic of a barra before releasing it, if the barra was caught out of season in the salt. He said no, i cant take a pic of it, and if he saw me do it, he would definitely fine me. He referred me to the Act that said " all illegal fish must be returned IMMEDIATELY to the water".

He went on to explain that he was not being over zealous in policing the law, and that the rule was there because every second counts towards a fishes chances of survival.

Ive come to agree with him after some thought.

Andrew

[mylestom]

Quite interesting so far with the result for not counted at 87.5%.

Various opinions, would like to hear from those who have competed in events that allowed fish undersize or weight to be allowed, possibly as catch and release.

Trying to get a truly balanced idea of what people think or compete in.

Thanks to those who have already replied, some very interesting comments so far.

Trev

[Fishobloke]

I say yes because, if there are no legal size fish about, then no one will catch anything for the competition, so does this mean they did not do well in targeting the set species?
In saying this, must be catch and release, preserve the future.

[mylestom]

Which competition allow undersize or underweight fish?

Trev

[sleepygreg]

None that I know of Trev, nor should there be. My post including the anecdote re the ABT was not meant to cast aspersions on them, but to highlight the ethics they have on a positive note...perhaps i didnt word it as well as i could have.

Greg

[mylestom]

From the replies seems like only a few of the barra events allow.

We ( Local comp) tend to exceed the limits( IE. Flathead over 70cm on in Catch N Release) this is in NSW where it is still legal to keep them over 70cm.

Our local comptetion is this weekend and will have another talk to the NSW Fisheries guys.

Information sharing is good, but me personally would like to only legal fish allowed to be entered in Competitions. Especially where others (IE. children and other anglers) might get the impression that its legal sometimes to not release them straight away.

Trev

[Ben D]

There are a few competitions where undersized fish could count towards final points scores, either now or in the recent past. These included the flathead classic on the Gold Coast and the Barra Classic in the NT, both of which were tag and release formats as well as lure only. There will also be some gamefishing tournaments which would allow anglers to tag and release undersized fish as part of their event, with points being allocated to do so.

In all these cases tagging of the fish as part of a co operative tagging programme has and continues to result in accumulation of large amounts of valuable scientific information on the fish species involved. This is part of the reason why both barra and flathead classic tournaments and most tag and releae game fishing tournaments score really well in the NEATFish environmental standard for fishing tournaments (www.neatfish.com (http://www.neatfish.com)). The points scoring systems of both flathead and barra classic allow anglers to score a minimal number of points for tagging and releasing undersized fish, and weigh the points heavily in favour of larger fish, so there is certainly no way anyone could win these tournaments by targeting undersized fish.

If you run a tournament and want to know more about the national environmental standard for fishing tournaments, I encourage you to log in at www.neatfish.com (http://www.neatfish.com) and run through the questionnaire to see how your tournament rates on the 1 to 5 star scoring system. Both flathead classic and barra classic rated as 5 stars.

Anglers are allowed to measure fish to determine their size, and last I checked you are also allowed to photograph them to determine their identity. Certainly you are allowed to tag fish as part of co operative tagging programmes. All of this takes a little time, but none of it necessarily detracts from a fishes post release survival chances if done properly, so if a fisheries officer tried to prosecute me for this I would be discussing it firstly with him, then with his bosses to ensure the officer had the correct attitude adjustment as obviously there must be some discretion applied when people are doing the right thing.

[leelee]

No you should NOT be able to keep undersized fish for any comp.

It is illegal to be in possession of undersized fish and they must be returned immediately so I fail to understand the concept of keeping undersized fish alive in a livewell ( ABT Bass and Bream ) as this means you are in possession of the fish.

Cheers

Lee

[mylestom]

Ben D,

The comp here is run in conjuction with Fisheries NSW, Surveys have been conducted over many years, and the fisheries volunteers are at every event.

Some competitions are run as family orientated events, and I( personally) do not think that the allowing of undersize fish to be counted is a good role model for young anglers.

We have approx 650anglers at this event and has been running for 15 years, Senior members of fisheries do/ have attended on a regular basis, and have personally commended us on our objectives. While Neatfish and others have their criteria, that criteria is not the be all or end all of how good a competition is.

Yes we have had a look at the criteria, and don't believe that it is of benefit to our community event. This does not mean that the criteria is wrong, it is just that one set of guidelines does not apply to rating all competitions.

Yes realise the benefits of tagging etc, but still, an illegal fish is an illegal fish and can't understand how it can be counted in a competition of any kind.

Trev

[Stik-ugly]

No problems with weighing in undersized fish for catch and release comps .Usually undersized fish score low and you still need to be in the right spot and use the right technique to catch them.

[mylestom]

Current Poll Stats for your information 12.39pm (Daylight savings) 9Jan.

Yes counted http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/polls/bar2-r.gif 3 4.48% Not counted http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/polls/bar3-r.gif 58 86.57% Don't have opinion one way or other http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/images/polls/bar4-r.gif 6 8.96%
Not much of variance over the last week.

Thanks to all who have responded so far. All good information, helps everyone to maybe understand the thinking behind some of the comps. Different horses, different course.

Our local comps just over 610 entries till yesterday, not bad for a little coastal village.

Regards

Trev

[ifishcq1]

tag and release comps all allow any tagable size fish to be counted and so they should
all data counts to the knowledge gained and the most important info starts with juveniles
Gecko as for dpi fining you for taking a pic before release, they told you a lot of wank because it is a prerequisite of dpi sanctioned tag and release events to get a photo on the brag mat before release

cheers

[carving it up]

Hi Trev,

Again Congratulations on such a successful fun family competition again this year, it really is something so unique and special for a small village to have, we will definately be there again next year.
As for the subject of discussion they should definately NOT be allowed to count. One of the main reasons we fish your comp is due to the Catch and Release section, it plants the seed into kids head at a young age that just because you can catch a fish doesn't mean you need to keep it, i think undersize fish is definately planting the wrong seed we want for our kids, only just before christmas my 10yo son was fishing at the cleaning table on his own and a guy came and was sneakily cleaning 3 fish, Sam went to look what he had and all 3 fish were way undersize including a whiting that was only about 20cm Sam actually chipped the bloke about it saying"Did you actually measure them 'coz there not even legal" the guy got quite angry toward Sam and luckily a family friend pulled up in the car park and Sam went to tell him about it when the guy quickly grabbed his fish jumped in his car and took off.
The other problem with counting undersize fish is how many would actually die needlessly as a result of trying to keep them alive in a livewell doesn't always work at least if it is legal and does die it can be used not wasted.
Anyway only my two cents
Let us know one day when you want to go for a fish to Trev
Barry

[mylestom]

Barry,
Thank you for the kind comments. Its a pleasure to talk with you and your family.
Sam is very keen young angler, congratulations on the Runner Up Champion Family for the second year in a row and all the individual prizes that your family won. Well done and deserved for all the hours, both day and night on the water. How did the new boat go this year.

The Catch n Release and the fish displayed in the live tanks for a couple of hours, is an educational tool. Helps the others to see what can be achieved.

Busiest four days at the club for the year.

Lots of happy anglers, both the children and parents. Nice to hear from the competitors about how we go at these events. If not for their efforts over the three days of the competition, it would not be worth all the work.

Will have to a session soon, give me a ring and maybe a evening/night session. Like to try for some more jacks in the system.

Thanks
Trev

[Lovey80]

Im not sure we have a good consensus here but here is my views.

If in a Saltwater comp where wild fish are concerned and it is catch and release or not, only legal size fish should count. I for one have only one execption and that is fish in a slot limit like flat head.

I have been advocating in my social fishing club to move from weight to length when judging points for a club weekend. Reason being that if Flathead are the target species that weekend and I catch a 95cm monster I get no points as I have to release it. So the guy that only hits a 69cm flathead wins that weekend.

This also promotes taking every fish that is legal, while 99% of my club will eat every fish they weigh in, I don't like the the possibility that someone will weigh in a fish that they have no intention of eating just to score points. While mostly these people will offer the fish they don't want to others that do eat that species, it sends a bad message IMHO.

As far as stocked impoundments are concerned I say weigh in all fish that are stocked. ie Barra, we have slot limits for Barra in the salt for breeding purposes right? Fresh water fish that don't breed in the fresh should not have the same protection as thier salt water friends especialy concidering that they are all catch and release. Im not sure how I feel about Bass , kept in livewells American style because I don't know much about survival rates. But if they are similar even after spending such time in the well then so be it. But there is no reason why Bass can't be scored by length and released either IMO.

Hope I made sense, but i don't see ANY arguments to the contrary being even remotely relevent. If they are stocked dam donkeys of course they must be considered differently.

Cheers

Chris