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bennyboy
05-12-2009, 08:26 AM
Towing Oversize Boats



http://www.marineqld.com.au/sites/default/files/DMax%20Towing.JPGThe legal width limit for any vehicle using Queensland roads is 2.50 metres. In Queensland, the Department of Transport and Main Roads provides limited access for vehicles that exceed regulation dimensions when carrying indivisible items. An indivisible item is one that cannot be divided without extreme effort, expense or risk of damage to it.
The department has become aware of the increase for light vehicles towing trailers with boats that exceed regulations. To ensure these movements are undertaken in a safe manner the department in conjunction with the Marine Queensland have developed a policy to assist in the movement of these vehicles. Class Permit 220-TH-09 is available for some types of vehicles carrying a boat where the boat has a width greater 2.50 metres up to 2.90 metres.
The following downloads explain the New Class Permit for Towing Oversize Recreational Vessels in full detail.


http://www.marineqld.com.au/towing-oversize-recreational-vessels

Dicko
05-12-2009, 10:53 AM
Well that clears that up. ;D


It looks pretty easy to comply with. Best of all it's a class permit, no need to stuff around applying for individual permits.

Mister
07-12-2009, 07:16 PM
Well it does appear pretty easy but consider the following direct quotes



The guideline specifies the types of vehicles that may engage in oversize travel; however these guidelines only apply to vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) of more than 4.50 tonnes, and does not apply to light vehicles such as cars, stations wagons or light commercial vehicles.


Class Permit 220-TH-09 is available for some types of vehicles
carrying a boat where the boat has a width greater 2.50 metres up to 2.90 metres.


Vehicles to which this Class Permit applies are any rigid vehicle having a Gross Combination Mass (GCM) greater than 4.50 tonnes, and have a sufficient towing capacity to safely tow the load. Types of vehicles that may meet the GCM requirement are Toyota Landcruiser, Nissan Patrol, or Nissan Navara. However, the operator should check with the manufacturer to ensure the vehicle has a GCM rating greater than 4.50 tonnes.



Key points highlighted. Why are SOME vehicles spelled out and not ALL vehicles with a GCM of 4.5 tonnes?


There are certainly some light commercial vehicles and even "cars" that well exceed the 4.5 t GCM limit but very few (actually none) even those listed exceed a 4.5t GVM.


Bit of a contradiction in the actual wording and possible intent? So what are they really trying to say is it 4.5t GCM or 4.5t GVM ????

bigjimg
07-12-2009, 07:46 PM
I think the GVM is for vehicles like tray back trucks and the like that want to shift oversize loads and have a GVM over 4.5t and the GCM for vehicles towing boats etc.Thats my take on it.Jim

Mister
07-12-2009, 09:07 PM
My take is that they have cocked up in the wording between GVM & GCM, which totally changes the intention. It is referring to "these guidelines"

Any vehicle of 4.5 t GVM is classed as a light truck and this excludes vehicles like Landcruisers, Patrol, Navara etc. So if it ONLY applies to vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) of more than 4.5t then this conflicts entirely compared to any GCM value and excludes all vehicles so mentioned.

bigjimg
07-12-2009, 10:46 PM
Don't know,but to me seems pretty cut and dried.I one instance you have rigid body trucks,in the other a combined total mass ie: vehicle plus boat.Don't forget you also marry the size limits to the application.Jim

oldboot
08-12-2009, 12:22 AM
Come on chaps its pretty clear.

The reference to "GVM" refeers to the existing guidelines.

The existing "guidelines" apply only to vehicles with a GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass....the legal loaded mass of the towing vehicle on its own) of over 4.5 tonnes....which is what some of us have been saying for ages...

so apart from this new permit.

Ya cant tow an over dimension load with with any thing under 4.5 tonnes and there fore a medium rigid licence.

now this permit
permits towing an boat ( nothing else) of the dimensions stated, with a vehicle that has a GCM ( Gross Combination Mass...the legal loaded mass of the tow vehicle and what it is towing) of over 4.5 tonnes...
The vehicles mentioned are examples.
It says " types of vehicles that may meet"

What they don't want is people towing monster boats with the comadore or hiace.


It's all pretty clear and is a gift to anybody that wants to tow a large boat.... but note the expiry date.........If there are any problems you bet your sweet .... they will pull the pin on this without hesitation.
and it will be back to trucks and meduim rigid licences.

cheers

rat_catcher
08-12-2009, 05:49 AM
Woohoooooooo........finally....finally.....we have some real details!!!!!!

Mister
08-12-2009, 01:51 PM
I will agree with oldboot now at this point, however the wording leaves a lot to be desired in the way it was written. "These guidlines" (which are actually those guidelines) are different to "these guidlines" which actually relate to these guidelines.

The only other thing I would query is the "some vehicles" with reference to the GCM. Obviously this is ALL vehicles with a GCM of 4.5t.

BTW there is one Hiace model with a GCM > 4.5t :) as well as many utes.

boatboy50
08-12-2009, 07:46 PM
Ok Ok,

So, does this mean I can tow my 2.3T, 2.6m wide boat with with my Navara on a standard licence with this permit?

I know if I go into the regs I wil just confuse myself.

Darren

Mister
08-12-2009, 08:30 PM
Will depend on the actual straight towing capacity of your particular model Navara?

Should not be a problem but check your handbook with regard overall towing capability of your particular model and total GCM. The Navara is generally in the 2800 to 3000kg towing range and GCM of 5.4t to 5.8t so no problem.

Mr__Bean
08-12-2009, 08:40 PM
And don't forget all the lights and flags required, the extended side mirrors and a copy of the class permit on board.

Forget all the rest of the guidance stuff, the class permit itself spells it all out quite well I reckon: http://www.marineqld.com.au/sites/default/files/220-TH-09.pdf

- Darren

boatboy50
08-12-2009, 08:42 PM
Ok,

My Navara is rated at 3.0T towing, but in itself only weighs around 1900kg.

If it's towing 2.3T, it's combined weight is only 4.2T. It's allowable towing weight is 3.0, plus it's actual weight of 1.9T, making 4.9T?

It's all over my head.

Darren

Mister
08-12-2009, 08:51 PM
Then it is a D40 model GCM of around 5.8t not a problem. As per beans commnets don't forget the flags, signs, lights, mirrors AND restricted areas.

cormorant
09-12-2009, 12:58 AM
Glad to see it in writing

2.9 wide is huge for normal roads and any punter doing it. Add 450mm flags to either side and it is getting serious 3.8m. Not sure I really want to be on the same road either behind a 28 foot cat or oncoming. Farmers are going to love this law.

Wonder if they are going to apply the commercial carriers fines- $800 for first 10mm if you forget a sign or flag.

Conditions don't actually say you need oversize signs, delineators or a orange flashing light both front and back which is surprising. The general public has no idea what flags mean and you really want to warn them especially if hanging limp are hard to see.

Would be bright of them to mention it is only a QLD approval and at the border you have to comply with a completely different set of laws.

Still be interested in what insurers have to say. After a couple of accidents premiums will go ballistic or insurance unavaliable

Couple of accidents and there will be pressure on this permit

I wonder if those will become a standard for all states??? Wonder if other states or that central committee on intergrating and standardising all state rules was consulted

Mr__Bean
09-12-2009, 02:38 AM
2.9 wide is huge for normal roads and any punter doing it. Add 450mm flags to either side and it is getting serious 3.8m. Not sure I really want to be on the same road either behind a 28 foot cat or oncoming. Farmers are going to love this law.



Let's not get confused by this, the requirement states:

Brightly colored red, yellow, or red and yellow flags , each of at least 450mm long and 450mm wide shall be attached to the extremeties of the load. The flags must be clearly visible at a distance of 100 metres.

The reference to 450 by 450mm is about the size of the flag, it doesn't say that the flags must protrude another 450mm past each side of the load.

From what I have read there should be no reason to get wider than 2.9 metres.

- Darren

Getout
09-12-2009, 06:44 AM
Anyone have a permit yet? If you have a need for one, I'd suggest you jump in and get one because this looks like a trial period to me. If there is insufficient uptake, it may be discontinued.

Mister
09-12-2009, 07:41 AM
Anyone have a permit yet? If you have a need for one, I'd suggest you jump in and get one because this looks like a trial period to me. If there is insufficient uptake, it may be discontinued.

This being a class permit then this would be the permit? Class permit, no application required?

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/eb2c8e44872dba6/Pdf_class_permit_220_th_09.pdf

oldboot
09-12-2009, 10:14 PM
The reason it does not say all vehicles with a GCM of 4.5 tonnes and over is because it is possible to have a vehicle with a high GCM and a poor towing capacity.

Additionaly there is a length limit, it is possible that a long vehicle with a GCM of 4.5 tomnnes may not be appropriate.......I know it is silly but for example towing with a stretched hummer, perhaps.

Various manufacturers have in the past, do now and will in the future have some very interesting "conditions" stated as part of their towing capacity.
I have seen due to manufacturers specifications.
A vehicle incapable of towing its full towing capacity unless at less party loaded.
A vehicle have to trade off its own load capacity against towed capacity
Vehicles with very low towing capacities for their size an load capacity.

You cant just add up the vehicle mass, its load capacity and its towing capacity and assume it is the GCM ....it may not be. The GCM may be much less.

As I have mentioned in the past......regs and permits are one thing....ahh but insurance is another all together.

And the word guidelines as used really has a very specific meaning, and to argue otherwise is a bit of a stretch particularly if you have read both the permit in full and the accompaning letter.

There is no way i would be buying a big boat on the strength of this development.....they could pull the pin on this at any time.

If you are thinking about doing what this permit allows.....hell buddy you better take the time to be really familiar with the rules... all of them........if you have to ask someone you really should no be doing it.

bear in mind that maximum permitted 2.9 meters allows you 50mm either side of your load to stay within the minimum permitted lane width of 3 meters.

this permit means absolutely nothing to farmers... unless they are towing a boat...it is specificaly for boats.

farmers already have very specific provisions in the act... sugar cane trailers are specificaly mentioned.

cheers

cormorant
10-12-2009, 07:10 AM
My comment on farmers was they have added conditions and yet they are professionals who deal with large machinery , towing, implements , do OH & S these days often used pilot vehicles for safety when not required etc.

So a professional with some experience and who likely has a heavier vehicle lic has more conditions placed on him than any Joe Blow who has never towed anything in his life

Doesn't quite seem right was what I was thinking.