Tiller steer 40hp - hydrofoil or not.......

[geoffmck]

Just wondering how many people have fitted a foil to their tiller steer tinnies to improve hull attitude at medium/low speed cruising speeds, or (as some foil models claim) to increase their top end speed.

I used to have a 474 centre console which had an 80hp with foil fitted when I bought it and it performed much better with it on, in as so far I could slow right down and still stay on the plane. Totally different boat when I took it off for a trial.

I am a bit reluctant to jump straight in and drill holes in my brand new Yamaha when it arives so will try it for a while without a foil, but just thought I would see what others have done.

The sports 300 foils looked pretty good in BCF today for $150.

Cheers

[bdaearth]

I was also looking at the hydrofoil at bcf the other day and thinking about getting one. I have a stacer 399 proline angler with a 30 yami on the back but like you am not so sure on drilling holes just to test it out??? Let us know if you do end up getting one.

[bassfan]

I fitted a permatrim foil to my Yammy 40 (tiller) when I first got it, and yes they do get you onto the plane a bit quicker. I have always been a little disappointed in the top speed though which on my 4.2m stacer was a gps measured 24knots on average. Anyway I've always suspected the foil would create a bit more drag in the water and so recently removed it to check if the top end improved, which it did by 3 knots. So I'm now getting 27 knots out of it and although it gets onto the plane a bit slower the handling etc are fine without it so I think I'll just leave it off.....::)

Wish I hadn't drilled holes in the cavitation plate to fit the damn thing.

[rhycebullimore]

your foil should be clear of the water

[trueblue]

The sports 300 foils looked pretty good in BCF today for $150.

Cheers

SE Sport 200 for a 40 HP? check the size of the anti cav plate.

40HP is the cut off point for changing between the 200 and 300, and there is a fair bit of size difference.

the SE Sport 300 will fit the largest of outboards, ie, up to 300 HP etc, and I wouldn't want that much foil on a little outboard.

http://www.sesport.com/5_29.asp

http://www.sesport.com/5_32.asp

also, some boats need them, and others don't. some boats get really good performance with them, and others turn into dogs.

all depends on the particular boat and its own particular set up

cheers

Mick

[geoffmck]

SE Sport 200 for a 40 HP? check the size of the anti cav plate.

40HP is the cut off point for changing between the 200 and 300, and there is a fair bit of size difference.

the SE Sport 300 will fit the largest of outboards, ie, up to 300 HP etc, and I wouldn't want that much foil on a little outboard.

http://www.sesport.com/5_29.asp

http://www.sesport.com/5_32.asp

also, some boats need them, and others don't. some boats get really good performance with them, and others turn into dogs.

all depends on the particular boat and its own particular set up



cheers

Mick

Thanks Mick, the 200 looks more like the go. They didn't have one on display so I didn't know they existed. Searches on the forums bring up a lot of support for the Permatrim brand as well. Agree some boats need and others don't. My last half cab was fine without one. That's why I will try without one first. Another point that others have raised is that they are good for when you are towing a tube etc. at mid range speed, keeping you on the plane better.

[3rd degree]

I had one on my old 50hp that was pinched off my boat.
It did get you out of the hole quicker and allowed you to plane at lower speeds, and offered maybe a small amount of stability.

I have a new engine now and am yet to put another foil on. Have been watching it over time and don't reckon I'll put one on.

Cheers
Jim

[geoffmck]

I fitted a permatrim foil to my Yammy 40 (tiller) when I first got it, and yes they do get you onto the plane a bit quicker. I have always been a little disappointed in the top speed though which on my 4.2m stacer was a gps measured 24knots on average. Anyway I've always suspected the foil would create a bit more drag in the water and so recently removed it to check if the top end improved, which it did by 3 knots. So I'm now getting 27 knots out of it and although it gets onto the plane a bit slower the handling etc are fine without it so I think I'll just leave it off.....::)

Wish I hadn't drilled holes in the cavitation plate to fit the damn thing.

Bassman, my boat before the last one was a 2005 Stacer Seahorse with a 2005 30hp Yamaha CV and my top speed was 47 kph, 1 up (gps measured) which equates to around 25 knots. 27 knots does not seem quick enough for a 40hp, or do you have the boat loaded right up? Is yours the 3 cylinder model or the CV? What size prop are you running?

[bassfan]

Bassman, my boat before the last one was a 2005 Stacer Seahorse with a 2005 30hp Yamaha CV and my top speed was 47 kph, 1 up (gps measured) which equates to around 25 knots. 27 knots does not seem quick enough for a 40hp, or do you have the boat loaded right up? Is yours the 3 cylinder model or the CV? What size prop are you running?

Thanks geoffmck, I have the 4.2 seahorse and the 3 pot 40 hp carbied yammy. I do have 2 big batteries on board (one f/ward & the other aft) which probably equates to one large person, but yeah it has never been quick. The motor only has 100 hrs on it & I've had the whole rig since new. Also have a min kota electric on the bow which undoubtedly causes wind resistance too. The prop is the std yamaha alloy job.

I think the CV may be fuel injected which would explain better performance than the carbie model.

Generally happy with the boat but would be happier if it could pull 30 knots...;)

[Noelm]

CV is not fuel injected, and indeed is the cheaper model in the range, foils are invariably fitted to boats to cover up some other setup problem, if it produces some increase on top speed, then something is very wrong.

[cormorant]

Bassfan get a portable tacho or next time it is at the dealer get it put in the test tank at WOT as it can't possibly be making full revs. If they sold you the package it would be nice if they would set up properly,tune it, prop it right rather than you run your first 100hrs overloading the motor. First stop is talk to the others here with the same boats and check what engine height and props they are running. Might just be your motor too low.

Beware with wing style foils on some setups if you are towing tubes and doig tight turns at speed as they can bite the water when you don't want them to causing instability. Following breaking seas can be a problem as well. Can be worse will manually trimmed tiller steer as well because the tiller can put a lot of force onto the driver but via a cable and NFB steering obviously not as much. In a straight line on the plane the motors cav plate , hence the foil, should be at least a inch out of the water.


One of the things most often forgotten about foils is that at rest they act like a great shock absorber slowing pitch and roll a bit.

They take a hell of a lot of force so make sure they are fitted right ( it will be used as a step whether you like it or not) and warranty claims on pivot points, trim units, cracked cav plates, cracked housings may all be rejected unless fitted as a standard item by the dealer.

In theory lower speed planing and more trim in that circumstance and be the only advantages over a properly set up boat but many people don't have that to start with and then overload it as well.. Guess they are cheaper than a couple of 6 inch hull extensions or a lighter motor.


Should add to the poll

My boat was overloaded
I am a fat bastard
I did it as I put a heavy 4 stroke on a boat not designed for the weight.
All my boat weight batteries, captain and fuel were all at the transom.
Yeah it was easier or cheaper than buying the right boat & motor to start with or then setting it up correctly - ie a bandaide.
Yes cause I enjoy drilling holes in a new boat motor - gives me a warm fuzzy sense of accompishment and shows my dominance over a piece of metal becuase teh manufacturers in all their wisdom, computer modelling, boat tests liketo support after market oarts makers by not increasing the size of the cav plate at the factory ( even as a option they could charge for) from out of the box. Maybe they are saving cardboard?.

[shanejohnson]

the se sport does everything stated on the packaging. good gear

[aussiebasser]

You can buy a clamp kit for the SE Sport which allows it to be fitted without drilling holes in the cav plate. At top speed the foil should be clear of the water so it definately shouldn't effect top speed. If it does, your motor may be set too low which is causing the lower top speed. If it is a punt, do not fit a Stingray, the SE Sport is the best there is.

[geoffmck]

You can buy a clamp kit for the SE Sport which allows it to be fitted without drilling holes in the cav plate. At top speed the foil should be clear of the water so it definately shouldn't effect top speed. If it does, your motor may be set too low which is causing the lower top speed. If it is a punt, do not fit a Stingray, the SE Sport is the best there is.

Thanks mate, they had a sign up about the clamp for the SEvSports but did not have one there to look at. I am leaning towards this brand/model if it turns out I want to try a foil out. Gotta be happy about no drilling of holes to start with.

[FNQCairns]

Cormorant nailed it well IMO.

On tinnys it is virtually impossible to raise the engine high enough for the foil to clear the water at cruising speeds...this is where they fall down entirely and wreck what could have been a good boat.

A person needs a very good reason to fit a foil and that will always be something peculiar to them or their rig and only them or their but without first knowing what RPM and speed the boat will pull at WOT a person couldn't do anything worse than fit a foil.

cheers fnq

[cormorant]

Cormorant nailed it well IMO.

On tinnys it is virtually impossible to raise the engine high enough for the foil to clear the water at cruising speeds...this is where they fall down entirely and wreck what could have been a good boat.

A person needs a very good reason to fit a foil and that will always be something peculiar to them or their rig and only them or their but without first knowing what RPM and speed the boat will pull at WOT a person couldn't do anything worse than fit a foil.

cheers fnq


If you can't get the cav plate up high enough then mount on top of the cav plate with a spacer , will still give most of the low speed planing and will be out of waterflow at higher speeds. Would work witha permatrim but not some others?

[FNQCairns]

If you can't get the cav plate up high enough then mount on top of the cav plate with a spacer , will still give most of the low speed planing and will be out of waterflow at higher speeds. Would work witha permatrim but not some others?

Great idea! certainly worth a try, very good idea actually, should work in theory. I would fit one (not a big one) in a flash if I could have it effectively out of the water at 30km/h my comfortably fast cruise is 45km/h.

Actually I have an 200se sport in the shed......the before and after numbers will not lie.

Yeah real good idea!

cheers fnq

[aussiebasser]

Cormorant nailed it well IMO.

without first knowing what RPM and speed the boat will pull at WOT a person couldn't do anything worse than fit a foil.

cheers fnq

Fitting a lower pitch prop thinking it would get out of the water quicker is one of the hundreds of things a person could do worse than fitting a foil.

Don't fit a foil if you want higher top speed. Fit a foil if you want a better hole shot. Fit a foil if you also want a slower planing speed. Fit a foil if you are sick of water washing over you transom when you slow down. Fit a foil if you want better stability at rest.

If you cannot get the foil out of the water at speed, do not fit a Stingray brand. These have a very noticable down turn on the trailing edge and will force the nose of the boat down at speed. This is not a good thing in a tinnie and apart from costing speed it could become dangerous to drive. If you already have one, you can cut the back off the Stingray with a jig saw so that the downturn is removed. This will help.

[Noelm]

it is not a matter of fitting a lower pitch prop to get you on the plane faster, you need the right motor for your rig, the motor setup correctly, then the RIGHT prop before any foils are fitted to anything, that's the point that we have been trying to get across, to fit a foil becuase some salesman told you it will improve everything is just plain wrong, in almost every case they do nothing at all except cost money to buy and time to fit.

[Mudlicker]

Have had the whole set up thing with my tiller steer 50 4 stroke and with a bit of persaverance got the hight and prop pretty much right , then I added a permatrim which turned my good boat into a great boat . no drop off in top speed stayed at 52 km /hr , planes at half the speed it used to , handles even better , now hole shots like a 2 stroke ( well nearly anyway ) .My boat is a 4.35 TABS which is quite heavey ( dont know if that makes much differenc really ). Have tried some of the plastic wings and they were shit , the se sport is the nly platic one i would use , but the eprmatrim does what it says it will . just my 2 cents .

[bassfan]

If you can't get the cav plate up high enough then mount on top of the cav plate with a spacer , will still give most of the low speed planing and will be out of waterflow at higher speeds. Would work witha permatrim but not some others?

Brilliant idea, and as I already have the permatrim and have already drilled holes in the cav plate there is nothing to lose by trying. I checked out the foil height on the plane before removing it & it was definitely not clear of the water, hence increased drag & a lower top end speed. Other than the loss of top end, I generally liked the way the boat handled & got onto the plane instantly with the permatrim fitted, so if I can raise it an inch or so and get it clear of the water at speed, it should maintain the top end I have without it fitted.

Out of interest where should the outboard cav plate be in relation to the hull bottom? I just measured mine with the motor trimmed right down, and it is 50mm below the level of the hull (35mm below the bottom of the strake). I wonder if it is mounted too low & I should have the motor repositioned higher. Any suggestions....?

[dreemon]

Bassfan it really sounds like you need to go up on the engine, cav plate/ foil should be just above the water on the plane and as FNQ said with a tinny you might have to go higher than you think to do that ,

on my last boat, 4.1 brooker with a 40 mariner and permatrim I played wit it heaps to get it right and ended up adding 70 mm of alloy welded to the transom to get the height that worked, "the welding work was cheap" trimmed right out I got 64 kph, the permatrim still had a tiny bit of drag because of the turned down flaps on it, but really liked it so kept it and put it on my 90 yam on a cuddy cab and like how it works on this boat.

above mentioned it acts as a "shock absorber" at anchor and it does.
I'll also be going with cormorants top idea of using a spacer to get the foil well above the water at speed cause even though it's mostly outa the water theres still heaps of spray comming of it and only see the sticker on the plane. Cheers

[fbawlgf]

hi all
on this subject i have a foil on my toyhatsu and it seems to cavatate a little from around half to full throttle.does anyone think the foil could be the cause of this.i was going to remove it but thought i get an opinion from you guys
cheers

[Noelm]

I kind of doubt it, but it will onlt take a minute to remove it for a test run, could be the motor was lifted to make height as high as possible, and the foil was added to aid in keeping the prop working.

[bassfan]

Just an update on my stacer / 40hp yamaha tiller steer.
I refitted the permatrim to it yesterday, and managed to raise the motor 40 mm by repositioning the mounting bolts into the lowest mounting holes on the motor, so no need to drill additional holes in the transom which was good. I then took it for a blat and got her up to 25 knots into the tide, so thats an improvement of about 2 knots on the top speed from before I raised the motor (with the foil fitted). It's obviously still dragging in the water, and the only options I see to prevent this are to either remove the foil again (although I like the low speed planing & stability it offers), or to raise it higher off the cav plate with the use of spacers as previously suggested. The cav plate /foil is now about level with the bottom of the transom and I think cavitation may result if I try & raise it any higher. Any thoughts appreciated....

[FNQCairns]

Just an update on my stacer / 40hp yamaha tiller steer.
I refitted the permatrim to it yesterday, and managed to raise the motor 40 mm by repositioning the mounting bolts into the lowest mounting holes on the motor, so no need to drill additional holes in the transom which was good. I then took it for a blat and got her up to 25 knots into the tide, so thats an improvement of about 2 knots on the top speed from before I raised the motor (with the foil fitted). It's obviously still dragging in the water, and the only options I see to prevent this are to either remove the foil again (although I like the low speed planing & stability it offers), or to raise it higher off the cav plate with the use of spacers as previously suggested. The cav plate /foil is now about level with the bottom of the transom and I think cavitation may result if I try & raise it any higher. Any thoughts appreciated....

yeah level with the hull is too low with a foil fitted, raise it up (the foil). You have nothing to loose and lots to gain if you can find a sweet spot.

I too will be doing this mod the potential extra available trim at slow and in snotty water is too much to resist if in the end most of the foils negative points get sidestepped.

cheers fnq

[Bosunsmate]

your foil should be clear of the water

Just curious, what point would there be in having a permatrim/foil if it was clear of the water..........how would it create the lift it is designed to create.

Surely it would be like having a pair of flippers on your feet while walking down the steet.....

[the baker]

I have a 4.2m dory with a 40hp Yammy 4stroke have not put a foil on it I don't think I will need to I had one on the old motor on the same hull there is not much difference the foil does tighten it all up a little when under way.

Dave

[Zooter]

Just an update on my stacer / 40hp yamaha tiller steer.
I refitted the permatrim to it yesterday, and managed to raise the motor 40 mm by repositioning the mounting bolts into the lowest mounting holes on the motor, so no need to drill additional holes in the transom which was good. I then took it for a blat and got her up to 25 knots into the tide, so thats an improvement of about 2 knots on the top speed from before I raised the motor (with the foil fitted). It's obviously still dragging in the water, and the only options I see to prevent this are to either remove the foil again (although I like the low speed planing & stability it offers), or to raise it higher off the cav plate with the use of spacers as previously suggested. The cav plate /foil is now about level with the bottom of the transom and I think cavitation may result if I try & raise it any higher. Any thoughts appreciated....

Mate i fited a foil to my 4.1 poly and had to sacrifice a few things for Better low speed planing and Holeshot! I Get cavitation now when trimmed out on turns and ive propably lost a few kms at top speed which without a GPS u wouldnt know the difference,

Seriously if u want to get around flat out all the time and ur worried about a few kms/hr on your top speed than i would loose the foil, Like the others have said they are designed for balance, better hole shot and lower planing speed and IMHO they all beat missing out on extra top end speed!

Good luck!

Zut

[Horse]

I have fitted foils to 3 boats and all improved in the areas I consider important.

1. The hole shot gives manouverability and faster reaction time. It also stops the annoying bow up take off which is a pain when constantly changing speed in rough conditions. With a foil the boat transitions from displacement to planning much more level

2. In small boats they make the vessel stiffer especially in a small chop increasing comfort speed

3. Low speed planning greatly improved using far less fuel in choppy conditiond and stopped the rear end bogging down in a following sea.

I have heard lots of horror tales of boats broaching and bows digging in so be wary of one until you learn how it handles. If in doubt don't fit one

I have found that many of the loudest critics of foils are those that have never fitted them to any of their boats

[craigie]

Mate,

I fitted a foil to my previous rig (40 hp Mariner tiller steer on a 4.6 Clark open tinnie).
Prior to the foil (Stingray model), my boat would reach nearly 60 k's at WOT, but had "porpising" issues. After the the introduction of the foil, the boat would plane at lower revs and the nose of the boat would stay level. Only drawback I lost over 15% off my top end speed and could now only get high 40 k's at WOT.

Regards
Craigie.

[geoffmck]

I have had my new boat (4.1 Safari/40hp Yamaha 2 stroke) for a couple of months now and am still running it in and sorting out the setup.
I am having issues with porpoising which is a real pain in the bum. It seems to happen at mid speed range, which unfortunately is the speed that I want to run at most of the time.
I have lifted the motor one hole from what the dealer installed it at and the cav plate is now level with the bottom of the hull and have also mounted my fuel tank at the front.
If I have the kids on board (weight at the front) it is not really an issue but one up it is a real pain.
I think it is caused by the weight of the motor and me at the rear and am seriously thinking of trying an SE Sports 200.
I just dont think I have any other option rather than carting sand bags or similar at the front of the boat all the time?

The poll results show that more than 4 in 5 people have experienced improvement in the boat after fitting a foil.

[murf]

I have had my new boat (4.1 Safari/40hp Yamaha 2 stroke) for a couple of months now and am still running it in and sorting out the setup.
I am having issues with porpoising which is a real pain in the bum. It seems to happen at mid speed range, which unfortunately is the speed that I want to run at most of the time.
I have lifted the motor one hole from what the dealer installed it at and the cav plate is now level with the bottom of the hull and have also mounted my fuel tank at the front.
If I have the kids on board (weight at the front) it is not really an issue but one up it is a real pain.
I think it is caused by the weight of the motor and me at the rear and am seriously thinking of trying an SE Sports 200.
I just dont think I have any other option rather than carting sand bags or similar at the front of the boat all the time?

The poll results show that more than 4 in 5 people have experienced improvement in the boat after fitting a foil.

motor still too low?

cheers Murf

[nigelr]

Apologies if I'm off-track here, never had a foil so can't comment on their effectivenes one way or another, however, are you 'driving' from the rear thwart/seat?
I constructed (although you can buy 'proper' ones) a tiller extension and now drive from just forward of centre. My 4.2m dory sits great in the water under way, whether at slow, medium or fast speed.
Only a tight fitting piece of PVC pipe, but works well for me by allowing me to put my 80kgs forward of centre. I've been using this set-up for 4 years without incident, including bar crossings in favourable (only) conditions.
Extremely cheap option!
Cheers.

[geoffmck]

Apologies if I'm off-track here, never had a foil so can't comment on their effectivenes one way or another, however, are you 'driving' from the rear thwart/seat?
I constructed (although you can buy 'proper' ones) a tiller extension and now drive from just forward of centre. My 4.2m dory sits great in the water under way, whether at slow, medium or fast speed.
Only a tight fitting piece of PVC pipe, but works well for me by allowing me to put my 80kgs forward of centre. I've been using this set-up for 4 years without incident, including bar crossings in favourable (only) conditions.
Extremely cheap option!
Cheers.

Hi mate, I am driving from the pedestal seat put there for the purpose. I did use an extension like yours in an old boat I had with thwarts in it but am not going to do it in my new boat. I bought a nice motor with power tilt and trim on the tiller handle and want to use that. I'll try lifting the motor another notch and see how that goes.

[geoffmck]

I have lifted the motor one more hole and the cav plate is now just above the bottom of the hull but still seems to be just under water at planing speed.
There has been a huge reduction in porpoising from what I started with but there is still a little bit at times, particularly one up.
I really want to try a se sports 200 just to see if it totally eliminates my issues but dont want to drill the cav plate so am in the market for one with a drill free sports clip. BCF do not have the drill free clips in stock and they are on backorder until 18 April.
Does anyone have one they want to sell?

[Chimo]

Geoff

Just drill the holes; your going to leave the foil on anyway.

If you buy a clip on one, one wonders how long before it walks or falls off?

You could always pod your boat if you really want a difference.

Cheers
Chimo

[Stik-ugly]

geoffmck if you are going to fit a se sport foil go to their website and send them a query on which is the best size ,either 2000 or 3000.I have a 4.2 viper that I have fitted a 40 hp four stroke Merc to and gave them all the details such as model etc and they sent a reply saying the 2000 wont fit and go the 3000.Just check with them because the 40 hp is the transition point from a 2000 to a 3000

[FNQCairns]

I have lifted the motor one more hole and the cav plate is now just above the bottom of the hull but still seems to be just under water at planing speed.
There has been a huge reduction in porpoising from what I started with but there is still a little bit at times, particularly one up.
I really want to try a se sports 200 just to see if it totally eliminates my issues but dont want to drill the cav plate so am in the market for one with a drill free sports clip. BCF do not have the drill free clips in stock and they are on backorder until 18 April.
Does anyone have one they want to sell?

Less is more when it comes to foil sizes if the above this is where you are ATM, IMO don't get an SE sport go for a permatrim, far superior.

cheers fnq