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insideout
31-10-2009, 06:16 PM
After a couple of kids broke into a business up this way a week ago, and set off an old epirb, resulting in emergency services being activated, costing lots of money and man hours.

My understanding is that after doing the right thing , and buying a new epirb, that we were told that the old ones will not be monitored anymore, why was emergency services activated??

Can we still use the old ones out in our boats?? Are the rescue ppl legally obliged to answer all epirbs, new or old??

Hope somebody can shine some light on this subject.

seatime
31-10-2009, 06:25 PM
Can't use the old analogue 121.5Mhz epirbs anymore. The law says so. They are supposed to have been properly disposed of, or deactivated. The owner of that one activated may have some questions to answer as to why it was still able to be set off?

121.5Mhz signals will still be detected by commercial aircraft (digital 406Mhz epirbs also transmit 121.5Mhz signal for search aircraft to home in on), they probably detect quite a few still, and have detected lots in the past, it's only the SAR satelites that no longer monitor 121.5 Mhz..

QF3 MROCP
31-10-2009, 06:47 PM
http://www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/story/2009/10/27/epirb-hoax-on-coast/

EPIRB hoax on Coast

Kristy Martin/Stephen O'Grady | 27th October 2009

An AGL rescue helicopter landed not once but twice at a Maryborough high school at the weekend after hoax distress signals were set off.


AUSSAR, the Canberra-based rescue co-ordination centre, revealed yesterday that 18 emergency locator beacons discovered near a Maryborough battery shop on Saturday was the most found in the country on any day.

“Aircraft at Maryborough Airport heard them all going off,” Senior Constable Marty Webb of the Hervey Bay Water police said.

Fifteen beacons were found in a box at the back of Positive Batteries on Saturday afternoon. Six of them had been activated. Another beacon which had been activated was handed into police after it was found in a pool.

The 18th beacon was discovered after the helicopter had taken off for its Maroochydore base but had to turn around after another signal was picked up.
The signal was tracked to the same business where another two beacons had been hidden. One had been activated.

“It's very frustrating. We're here to help people and save lives, not this,” AGL helicopter pilot Aaron Regan said.

“To have them purposely set off is a very unusual circumstance.

“It's costly in the way of time - three hours on a wild goose chase.”

The cost of sending the aircraft for a false emergency is between $7000 and $8000.

“The event could also have been devastating for anyone really in trouble,” Snr Const Webb said, “after it was decided that any further distress signals coming from the local area were to be ignored by rescue crews.”

He said a number of businesses, including Positive Batteries, act as places where people can surrender their old beacons for deactivation.

But the ones that were activated on Saturday had been left unsecured outside the store over the weekend.

Police were yesterday expected to speak to the business about the storage of its beacons.

Snr Const. Webb said police wanted to remind people who found EPIRBs to hand them in and that there were severe penalties for those who set them off.

“There are very strict penalties in place for the activation of emergency beacons when there is no emergency situation,” he said.

It is not known whether all the items have been recovered or if some remain missing.

oldboot
31-10-2009, 06:48 PM
My understanding that the new 406 eperbs use the same homing signal as the old ones..and yess aircraft monitor that.

the primary signal in theory isn't monitored.

cheers

SatNav
31-10-2009, 07:29 PM
1. NO the old ones are NOT monitored anymore.

2. NO you can NOT use the old ones in your boat.

3. The problem is the 121.5 tracking signal which can be detected by aircraft but aircraft have no legal obligation to monitor this anyway but many do since 121.5 is also included in 406 beacons

4. My recommendation is that this business cover all costs due to their negligence

QF3 MROCP
31-10-2009, 08:21 PM
1. NO the old ones are NOT monitored anymore.

2. NO you can NOT use the old ones in your boat.

3. The problem is the 121.5 tracking signal which can be detected by aircraft but aircraft have no legal obligation to monitor this anyway but many do since 121.5 is also included in 406 beacons

4. My recommendation is that this business cover all costs due to their negligence



re Aircraft monitoring - they are required to monitor 121.5Mhz before engine start and after shutdown. Reception of the frequency must be reported to ATS or the RCC immediately. AIP Aust section GEN3.6 - 8.2

SatNav
01-11-2009, 09:44 AM
1. This 121.5 aircraft monitoring expectation needs to be put in proper context and should no longer be made in reference to detection of 121.5 Epirbs and users should in no way expect this to occur.

Dave_H
01-11-2009, 10:49 AM
You are both right, and in heated agreement.

SatNav, there are still CAR and Civil Aviation Act requirements that must be adhered to which obviously you guys in AUSSAR aren't always up to speed on. One of them is the requirement by a comapny to operate in strict complience with every paragraph of its flight operations manual (FOM). Despit its redundancy in this day and age, the practice must be conducted by a company if it is included in their FOM, no matter how old or out date it is. This is a CAR requirement.

I found this to be quite prominent during the West Atlas issue a few weeks ago up off Truscott (which I have only recently come home from Darwin) where AMSA commented (quite out place) about some of the practices involved.

In the interim there are operations that will have no choice but to monitor 121.5 (obviously there are no guarantees and no-one ever makes any) as CASA ensures complete company compliance with every paragraph of their company operations manual, the issue I think may have escaped you to date SatNav. No-one ever suggested that it was still enshrined in regulation or legislation, however just try getting CASA to allow a company to relax an FOM requirement.

You are right to suggest that NO-ONE should ever rely up on the practice of aircraft to rely on and keep using old 121.5 EPIRBS.

All the best and keep up your fantastic work, both of you (Sat and QF3).

Dave.

Dave_H
01-11-2009, 10:53 AM
SatNav the only disagreemnt I hve with you is re the disposal of old beacons. It isn't the owner of the busines's problem if people dump them outide the premises on a weekend when the business is closed.

Sorry mate, you are wrong, it should be the peron who dumped them there who is liable, and in fact that is how the law works.

Dave

SatNav
01-11-2009, 11:02 AM
1. Dave_H, my understanding is that these beacons had not been "dumped" but units handed across the counter and then left in an insecure location out the back of the shop.

2. Appears the users have done the right thing but the security from this point has been left wanting. It is not as if they are dead batteries or similar.

oldboot
01-11-2009, 11:26 AM
While no one should "expect" detection via the tracking frequency.....it may explain why they were detected and emergency services turned out.

But who knows.....they may have told everybody that the old frequency is no longer monitored......but they may still be monitoring it......as overlap........for just a little while longer.

That is what I would be doing.

But most certainly.........and I think we all agree........no one should have any expectation that an old style eperb will get them rescued.... but every expectation that if it isn't properly disposed of they will get a boot up the stern.

cheers

rando
01-11-2009, 05:51 PM
If my ship goes down,you can bet your boots I will be setting off any epirb I have on board analogue or not. If i get rescued and get fined ,,,, small price to pay!.

oldboot
01-11-2009, 07:21 PM
the point is rando... you should not have an old style eperb on your boat to start with......if you need one....it should be a modern unit.

cheers

Dave_H
01-11-2009, 08:01 PM
1. Dave_H, my understanding is that these beacons had not been "dumped" but units handed across the counter and then left in an insecure location out the back of the shop.

2. Appears the users have done the right thing but the security from this point has been left wanting. It is not as if they are dead batteries or similar.

That being the case then I stand right there with you, the business owner should fork out for the cost of the assets involved.

SatNav
02-11-2009, 07:27 PM
1. Quite a few short sighted views on this one and those that still carry old Epirbs in the hope of being rescued and gladly copping a fine or whatever do really need to look beyond the "if i get rescued" bit as based on some recent events there will be no fine ...... you just won't be found.

2. It's simple really, just be prepared to pay the big price, it's your life.

Midnight
02-11-2009, 09:41 PM
Gday,
I am sure I will be jumped on for what I am about to post....

Airline aircraft reception of the old 121.5 beacons was always well and truly before the satelite reception of the signal. And I suspect, if close enough to the beacon at the time of activation, an airliner overhead will receive and report the 121.5 signal before the digital 406 signal makes it to the satelite and back down to AMSA.

In short, buy a 406 beacon(with built in GPS and Strobe, if you really wanna be found quickly) if you require one in your area of operation, but I see no sense what so ever discarding a perfectly servicable 121.5 beacon. It will save your life!

Set them both off should the need arise, as you dont truly know if either beacon is transmitting. The blinking light on the top just means power has made it to the little LED.

Cheers and stay safe,
Myles
(Ex AMSA SAR Pilot and Airline Pilot)

P.S And yes the business in question should be liable for the costs, as they have not disposed of the surrended beacons in an appropriate fashion.

oldboot
02-11-2009, 10:18 PM
The old style eperb is no longer perfectly servicable, because it main function is inoperative
the problem here is there is a piece of safety equipment that no longer functions as designed.

A person not knowing may at some time come to depend on functions that item no longer performs......that may cause them to not take other action that may get them rescued

The new 406 eperb will still transmit on the international distress tracking frequency.

so there is no point having both aboard.

I can not say for sure......... but it may open a person up to prosecution for carrying expired safety equipment......just like you can get zipped for having an unservicable life jacket aboard even if you have enough servicable ones.

This same issue has be raised a number of times... but people still dont get it.
Carrying expired safety eequipment of any kind is not a good idea, be it flares, lifejackets or eperbs.

If you are going to have safety equipment have the right stuff and compliant.

cheers

QF3 MROCP
02-11-2009, 10:23 PM
The old style eperb is no longer perfectly servicable, because it main function is inoperative
the problem here is there is a piece of safety equipment that no longer functions as designed.

A person not knowing may at some time come to depend on functions that item no longer performs......that may cause them to not take other action that may get them rescued

The new 406 eperb will still transmit on the international distress tracking frequency.

so there is no point having both aboard.

I can not say for sure......... but it may open a person up to prosecution for carrying expired safety equipment......just like you can get zipped for having an unservicable life jacket aboard even if you have enough servicable ones.

This same issue has be raised a number of times... but people still dont get it.
Carrying expired safety eequipment of any kind is not a good idea, be it flares, lifejackets or eperbs.

If you are going to have safety equipment have the right stuff and compliant.

cheers


Oldboot.... as I just told Marlin_Mike in another thread.. don't start getting SKIPPERS concerned about Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS)... us 24x7 Volunteers will be out of a highly unpaid job if they act properly!!!

Peter

Mister
07-11-2009, 03:04 PM
Gday,

but I see no sense what so ever discarding a perfectly servicable 121.5 beacon. It will save your life!

Set them both off should the need arise, as you dont truly know if either beacon is transmitting. The blinking light on the top just means power has made it to the little LED.



Is this the right type of message to be putting over? Aren't 121.5 beacons rather useless at this point in time? and aren't 121.5 beacons totally banned for any purpose begining 2010?

Would not have thought any 121.5 beacons should be classed as "perfectly servicable" since detection was stopped? Perfectly servicable for what?

Did someone query why people just don't get it?

cormorant
07-11-2009, 03:49 PM
My understanding was that official collecting agents were obliged to open them and disable them as per the website. Takes like 1 minute a epirb and then batteries can be removed for recycling.