Making it safer!

[thatsakeeper]

Im new to boating but im pretty concerned how i bought this boat and its current set up. Battery next to a fuel tank and a fuel filter over the battery, add a smoking passenger and im very uncomfortable.
I'd like to have whether its necessary i dont know, three separate areas in that rear area at some stage i might introduce a dual battery set up with some planned upgrades but i have minimal electronics currently and seal the whole lot off to reduce the risk of fire from a dropped cigarette, but maintain accessability and ventilation.
Ive had some coach building experience but im unsure how i would approach this and material to use. My step father is a carpenter so he might be able to assist in some sort of custom job.
Or am i just being over cautious cause ive seen many an older boat with this set up.

[Geoff-]

maybe you are being cautious but I don't like the look of a battery and a fuel tank right next to each other either. Just because everyone else does it doesn't mean it's right!!

I would prefer the battery to be in its own battery box in the back corner and the fuel tank in the opposite corner. At least this example both items seem to be strapped down so they don't move!!

[tenzing]

Wow. How do you change that fuel filter?
Remove the battery first?

[Kdog]

Gday Thatsakeeper,
If I were you, I would be moving that battery away from the tank in one of those boxs as Geoff- said, also you should move the filter over to the port side a bit more.
Mate you are definitely "NOT" been over cautious, petrol and sparks do not mix well!!!

I know your new in boating, but do youself and friends a favour and do something about the setup, because if something happens {and it may not}you`ll be put of boating for life or worse sorry.

[firstlight]

Hi Thatsakeeper,

The fact that you have identified these items as potential hazards says your well underway to safe boating mate.

I think a trip to BCF for a battery box and a weekend sorting things through will see a safer setup.

Possibly spend a bit of time checking all your wiring, navigation equipment and lights, put some ears on and run your motor up before the big water test.

pls keep us posted with the end result and just keep asking questions mate.
I find this site and ausfisho's very helpfull

cheers
firstlight

[thatsakeeper]

Thanks Kdog and Geoff. I'll get them batteries into boxes. Just talked to step dad and he could make a partial door that covers some of the unsightly tank and battery and pull up as a quick fillet table

[thatsakeeper]

and firstlight

[Jarrah Jack]

Can be difficult I know but you can always have a no smoking policy on the boat. I'm now going that way with mine. Eliminates one potential hazard altogether.

[Zooter]

I would add a Fire Extinguisher to bcf list aswell mate :)

[Braddles]

Good on you mate for spotting the problem!

Your concerns are VERY valid. You certainly need a battery box with terminals INSIDE the box. The more expensive ones have external connectors - while this is more convienient - it defeats the purpose.

I would still like to see them seperated. Personally, We had Batteries in boxes, Then Oil tank (in another battery box), then two 25L fuel tanks.

Just be VERY careful sealing the tank area off... There is a LOT of ventilation, esp while underway as it is... If you seal those tanks from natural breeze - Vapour will build up - and you are dramatically increasing the risks of explosion! Fumes you can smell are rarely concentrated enough the ignite, but trap those vapours to concentrate - and its VERY dangerous.

In a boat that small, I would have a no smoking policy as others have suggested - its just not worth the risk (but then I dont smoke)...

[ozscott]

I only smoke after sex...but only when I was really quick

[Geoff-]

Just be VERY careful sealing the tank area off... There is a LOT of ventilation, esp while underway as it is... If you seal those tanks from natural breeze - Vapour will build up - and you are dramatically increasing the risks of explosion! Fumes you can smell are rarely concentrated enough the ignite, but trap those vapours to concentrate - and its VERY dangerous.

In a boat that small, I would have a no smoking policy as others have suggested - its just not worth the risk (but then I dont smoke)...

Don't seal either the battery box or the fuel tank enclosure. Fuel evaporates, and when lead acid batteries charge they give off Hydrogen gas which is even more explosive than petrol. Both areas should be ventilated. I agree on the no smoking rule, it's a filthy habit anyway :P

[oldboot]

I have no real problem with the proximity of the two items...... but it would be nice for some seperation.

I am however concerned about the naked battery...........salt water and battery acid is an explosive combination......the caps yeh are screwed on the battery properly....but it needs to be in a battery box and tied down well.
bare terminals not good either.
Poke the handle of your landing net in there:o and get a big surprise.

if the tank is in good condition there should be no fumes...unless you are filling or coupling/decoupling the tank.
And in the open air ( like it is) the fumes will disipate much better than if it was closed in.

likewise there should be no sparks from the battery.

I note that I can not see a battery isolator (nothing new).....and is there a main fuse for the accessory feed.....there should be one......right next to the battery.

As I said...not all that concerned about the proximity.

I would also be concerned about the quality and state of repair of fuel hoses, cap seals and that old style coupling.

there are always issues with filling tanks in boats.....but that is a hard one....you just have to be carefull....because you cant remove a tank of that size.

fill slowly and carefully.....and do not use the auto cut off on the pump.

whitworths have a deal on 1KG ABE dry powder extinguishers with brass heads for $20.....they arent bad.
If the boat is 16foot or over you should be carrying an extinguisher under the GSO.
I'd carry one anyway.



cheers

[thatsakeeper]

thanks for all your responses i have taken it on board (pardon the pun).

[ozscott]

Arrgghh....the dry chemical extinguisher...what a thing of beauty...brought in and the yellow out to save the environment. They sit in most applications day in day out getting vibrated and then one day you need it...the gauge says its got enough pressure, pull the trigger and get excited...the bit in the spout comes out and after a split second nothing...yep its all stuck on the bottom like wet talc.

The only way to safely carry dry chemical is to take it and shake it once in awhile or even better give it a little bit of the business end of a rubber mallet on the bottom whilst holding the ext' up side down.

Cheers

PS. The above in the first para happened to me when a lovely (:)) old Merc of mine caught fire...a gut dropping experience both when it catches fire and when the extinguisher goes out to lunch

[oldboot]

yeh but how old and stale was that extinguisher.

If the preasure guage was showing low.....that is nothing to do with being dry powder.....all modern extinguishers can suffer leaks..............that is why the have a guage on them.

that is why in regulated uses they have to be recharged or replaced every couple of years.

the old yellow BCF extinguisher was near useless on oil and petrol fires...........yeh it would knock em down....but they would flash back up seconds later.

An ABE dry powder will knock down and keep down most things......BCF was only ever intended for electrical fires.

cheers

[ozscott]

OB - mate thats the point- I was saying that it the gauge was showing proper pressure. It was well within test date too. Its a known problem with them. I had a yellow tucked away. Rang Kemp Place fire station and a senior bloke there unofficially told me to hang onto the yellow and agreed with my mallet idea on the end of the bcf ones. He said they would have to look at an education program about them packing down - I ventured that one of the worst places would be heavy earthmoving machines and boats etc and he agreed.

Have a BCF (I have heaps cause I cant resist them at $20 a throw) - bold red nose, long dry pallet, but I recommend that instead of allowing them to rest for too long before consuming it, and perhaps regular turning would add to the experience.

Cheerz

[oldboot]

Yeh but how old and stale was the extinguisher.

Turning and thumping them isn't a bad idea.

I have fired of a few dry powders....a couple in need and a couple past well past useby.........never had a failure.

I have also used most common types of extinguisher in a training situation to put out actual fires......and I can tell you the BCF extinguishers are not anywhere near as capable as dry powder on a wide range of fires.

Then there is the axphixiation and toxisity issues with BCF.....

If you have an old yellow BCF extinguisher, the best thing you can do with it is dispose of it properly.........it will be at least 10 years old........well beyond its inspection date and very likly to be unreliable.
If a fireman advised you to keep it.....that was bad advice or a very long time ago.

BCF was not only witdrawn because it had a "green house gass" inside...... but also that they were dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced.

For the general public, the most suitable extinguisher is an ABE dry powder.....it is intended for A...wood, paper, plastics, B..oils and fats, and E electrical fires.

BCF was never suitable for anything but E type fires.......

in motor racing they were used for small engine bay fires.......because use of dry powder or foam ment the cost of a rebuild, and definite end or racing for the day..............and it was considered worth taking the chance........but there should have been foam or powder on standby in case...................these days they use CO2... but they still have foam or powder to back it up.

OH
BTW

If you think you are going to put out a 60 liter fuel tank fire with a 1kg dry powder .....you are kidding your self.

If all you got is a 1kg dry powder.....you better use it early and use it well.....and be ready to swim.

Hmm thats a thaught.........how many people store their life jackets near their fuel tank??:-/

cheers







cheers

[gr hilly]

move the battery mate as to smoking for 40 yrs now ive been fishing with a fag in my chops, i have updated half a dozen fire ex but dont keep your battery next to your fuel tank by the looks of you boat you could move it up the front and stop any concern you may have. glynn

[wilcara]

Thatsakeeper I am with you my friend 100%.

I could not be comfiortable with teh battery and fuel tank together, no matter how safe everyone told me it was. Simple, if you are not happy with it, move it and have peace of mind.

Keep the area open to ventilate any fumes and also so you can see if there is a problem about to happen, like a spill or overflow or something.

Smoking.... that is a tough one. Obviously you have a good mate who needs to have a fag and I understand that. I am not a fan of smoking in my boat but don't think a lot of people would be capable of going out without a smoke every now and then. Your mate might tell you to find somebody else.

As gr hilly says too, just coz you smoke doesn't necessarily mean you are going to blow something up. Still, I don't like it, and its my boat.

[ozscott]

OB - I dont know what you mean about stale...it was within test date according to the label and the guage also showed proper pressure. My brother had the same experience with a dry powder that he had that was within test date and showing fine on the pressure gauge. You are dead right about a 1kg not putting out much though - 3-4 seconds and its all over with a full one working well.

Cheers

[White Pointer]

Thanks Kdog and Geoff. I'll get them batteries into boxes. Just talked to step dad and he could make a partial door that covers some of the unsightly tank and battery and pull up as a quick fillet table

G'day,

The main hazards from the set up are (a) the lack of a battery box to keep salt away from the terminals - because it conducts electricity (b) the proximity of lots of fuel vapor near the battery when refuelling and (probably) (c) the fuel tank venting so close to the battery as fuel expands in heat - and its coming into summer.

Two other risks may be present: (1) If the battery has an isolation switch and it's not sealed it could cause a spark to ignite fuel vapour and (2) If you recharge your battery by direct connection to the terminals you risk ignition of gas from the battery which will ignite fuel vapour - a double bang.

Suggestions:

- The battery should stay where it is - close to the engine to maximise CCA for starting - otherwise you will have to lay in heavier cables.

- The fuel tank should be under the floor in a cell that drains out through the transom with a breather out through the transom.

- The filter is best located outside the transom so that the bowl is easily accessible for inspection and the filter for replacement and the run to the engine is as short as possible.

I don't know if any of this is practical in your boat. If it isn't I suggest do as much as you can and move it on and get something safer.

Regards,

White Pointer

[firstlight]

Won't be long now and old mate will be running back from BCF with 6 battery boxes, 20 fire extinguishers and 35,000 life jackets ... lol, or worse ripping up the floor drilling and cutting through superstructure trying to fit an after market fuel tank that may not fit anyway - sounds more like a project for an experienced boat builder/ manufacturer, after all above floor fuel tanks are commonly and widely used throughout the boating world.

So for some common sense, lateral thinking and sticking to a reasonable budget should resolve these issues.
No more exposure, no less exposure then any and every boat on the water

Best of luck mate

cheers
firstlight

[ozscott]

Firstlight - good comment. I had a V163/16C with a very similar problem at least in terms of the fuel tank - they just dont fit under the floor.

You are right about making things work. In my Vagabond the twin alloy tanks under under floor with hatch access amidships and breather pipes to a breather in the outer transom. The room under the transom outboard well is compromised because the well is so big, but I run twin batteries - plastic battery boxes (no lid - can fit it under with a lid) one on each side of the boat under the transom well. I run the fuel pipes away from the batteries but cannot avoid getting the main pipe as close as about 6 inches from one battery as it runs through the transom to the engine - however checking and replacing hose regularly and using top quality hose is the way to go - ad its clipped into place so it cannot move. My fuel separator is inboard of the transom and sits above the bilge. It does not sit over or anywhere near the batteries etc and its safe from being knocked or broken...I dont like them outside the boat despite that I know a few people do. I dont even like them that much inside the well - I am worried that the kids could give it a belt and even though the glass is strong it just worries me. A good quality fuel filter well placed inside a boat is never going to be a drama. I could put the batteries further forwards and stick a lid on them, but they are contained where they are and it allows me some more storage space, so Im not doing it just to stick a lid on them...as long as nothing can get near them to short across the terminals I dont see why a lid is desirable.

I have a dual battery switch which is about 15 inches from one battery and mounted up against the lower inside wall of the side of the boat - again where it cannot be bumped. Both batteries can vent out in the sense that the transom under area is not totally closed off.

So, I guess that there are ways of ensuring safety, maintaining storage space, maintaining aesthetics (because even though form follows function that is still a factor) and the budget.

Cheers

[Travesso]

I only smoke after sex...but only when I was really quick

hahaha gold! ;D

[oldboot]

yeh lets not get carried away looking for dangers that simply do not exist, should not exist or exist with every battery all fuel tank in creation and very rarely cause a problem.

All the decent battery isolators are sealed units...no problem.

there will be no more danger from the tank vent than any other above floor portable tank situation......venting from expansion on a shaded tank that is being drawn off will be very minimal.

It must be understood that the main function for an outboard vent in a below floor system is vent fumes and splash overflow outside the hull when filling....AND..to place the vent point near the height of the fill point........

putting the fuel tank under the floor will do nothing to make things safer.

Moving the battery a little will do very little to make anything safer. moving it a lot will introduce other issues.

Having the battery (in it's self) close to the fuel tank, realy isnt an issue.

The issue here is..........people are just not used to seeing their fuel tank or their battery.
In a car people may be sitting on their fuel tank....and their carburetter may be directly over their distributer....or their fuel tank may be in a crumple zone........ but they don't see and don't know and therefore have no clue

Most of the fume/ gass issues will simply not be there if ventilation is preserved along with a little normal common sence care like.
Not spilling fuel.
Not doing anything else when refueling.
turning chargers off when connecting & disconnecting.

we need to understand the difference between "hazard" and "risk".

A hazard requires risk to translate into danger.

The greatest risk as it stands is a naked battery, followed by absence of a battery isolator and main accessory fuse.

Note that all battery boxes have little vents in the lid (those little round grills) and large overlap, to prevent accumulation of hydrogen.

As I said before...battery box, isolator, main accessory fuse, check wiring , fuel hoses and seals.
All bigger issues than a properly managed battery and fuel tank beside each other....and would be issues regardless of the location of the items.

Cost low, degree of difficulty low.

cheers

[Jarrah Jack]

A mate just picked up his brand new HH585 yesterday, had a look inside the rear compartment and there was the fuel line and hand primer sitting on top of the battery box. Should I do something about it?

Have not had a chance to go over the whole dual battery , breather setup. He knows about as much as my misses does about boats but is wise enough to take my advise on most things lol.

[oldboot]

Probably yeh.....I would be more concerned about the condition of the fuel lines and the ventilation.....Oh how well is the battery secured..and is there a main accessory fuse....( I cant believe so may boats don't have em.)

It shouldn't be hard to get the lines away from the battery box...so why wouldn't you do it.

cheers

[mobsta]

Hi All,

I have question on this topic. I have a Quintrex 375 Dart. The fuel tank is mounted behind me in one corner and i want to build a battery box out of marine ply or foam PVC board then cover it with marine carpet to house my 100Ahr AGM battery in the other corner at the rear of the boat. Do you think this is enough seperation between the two? I am new to boating so any comments are appreciated. Cheers

[ranga7]

If you think it might be a hazard then yes you need to deal with it. Wat if you didn't do anything and something happened.

[FishHunter]

Lots of things worry me about that setup however the fear of a dropped cigarette igniting anything is not one of them as you can extinguish a burning cigarette in petrol. The lighter or matches would be a worry though.

[Smithy]

A quick tidy up is a drop curtain setup. Maybe a bit of sailtrack at the top and get an upholsterer make it in white vinyl to match the white hull.

[deckie]

Nahh...guys have been putting to sea with this setup for a long time and common sense rules. Yes it looks a bit scarey and yes i'd definitely put the battery in a ventilated box a little further away, but i reckon you;re better off checking the tank, wiring and fuel line connections as a safety issue rather than fretting over proximity issues or whether a mate likes a puff. Does look unnaturally close though.

Dont enclose the area coz to me thats INCREASING the likelihood of fire. I'd be more concerned if there were subfloor tanks on a second hand boat and any associated fittings not being checked/replaced regularly. Inboard motors with enclosed batteries not blown/ventilated prior to starting is probably the #1 cause of fire on boats. Thats a clue yeah ?

Whilst on the water and in the driveway ventilation is your friend. You're far more likely to experience heightened fire risk when filling up, charging batts, cleaning up, working in that area, or simply not checking/replacing fittings and tanks as they naturally age. Pissing off mates who like a smoke is a bit of a princess option. Wont do anything and in all seriousness despite what looks like an unsafe environment there's probably little risk if you have a well maintained fuel system and wiring/terminals/connections that are pretty damn water and spark proof in that area. Fuel spillage the big issue, out thru any screw cap vent/connection and from poorly maintained tanks that cant take the buffeting. MUST be aware that vibration can turn something simple into a drill bit so check where the tank rests and look for rubbing points, so when its low take out the tank regulalry and check where it sits coz the hose usually doesnt get everything. Every single thing in the boat wants to head for that area. Poly welds do crack with age, just like any weld can. Safety to me (and peace of mind if you;re worried) would be replacing an aging second hand tank and fuel lines/bulbs etc (think of it as part of the purchase price), plus rewiring the area properly with safe connections and putting the battery in a ventilated box to protect the terminals from any chance or arcing from anything loose.
Common sense rules everything...for example THINK before attaching battery charger or using metal tools and possibly think about replacing old batts with sealed/agm types. They still vent hydrogen when they need to but not nearly the same risk as an old cheapie thats been sitting in the elements for years. If concerned at all i would do anything to increase ventilation in an area where any venting point at the highest point under that transom area can be a safety feature itself...even a flush rod holder is your unlikely friend whilst underway or at the bowser. Beware trying to squeeze more into the tank. With that setup i also would've thought u have less risk of static arc at a bowser whilst filling than the guy with subfloor tanks and a gunwhale filler...but then if u enclose it you'll simply be increasing risk of any spillage/fumes ever becoming a problem. Dont let little johnny or the blonde girlfriend/mistress fill up whilst you join the queue to pay for it.

Open the bonnet of your car and have a look at the proximity of fuel lines/ hot manifolds/ distributors etc etc. Dont go acting the princess with your mate that smokes. Unless drunk or stupid i reckon he's far less likely to ever be a fire risk than you are by simply having a brain fade one day, or not properly maintaining equipment. Its an open environment, definitely a batt box ( and maybe move it away a bit) but i dont think its nearly as dangerous as it looks if you maintain simple and proper safety procedures.