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kingtin
12-08-2009, 01:17 PM
OK, in the past the stale petrol debate has opened a can of worms, but let's not go there eh ::)

I have a full tank of 6 month old unleaded which I have been trying to drain to no avail.

After buggering about unscrewing and lifting floors, I find that access to it is via a right angle bend. Try as I may, with different gauge hose and the softest that I can find, I cannot get it to go round the right angle and into the tank.

Is there another way of getting it out that anyone can think of? It smells ok so would you just go for a run and hope for the best.

I reckon that there's about 90 litres so would a top up with 30litres of premium help?

If it's only a one-off is there likely to be any repurcussions for the engine?

Kerry...................if you're out there lurking, I know what your answer would be ;D

cheers

kev

Blackened
12-08-2009, 01:20 PM
G'day

Kev... Can you siphon it by disconnecting the quick release fitting on the motor end, attaching more fuel line if need be and then using the primer bulb to start the siphoning? May be slow but would be the simplest way with the situation you're in.

Dave

FNQCairns
12-08-2009, 01:27 PM
According to my fuel meter my fuel bulb will flow at 150L/hour when i am priming to get a siphon happening, it's not hard work to pump it at 60l/hour.

cheers fnq

griz066
12-08-2009, 02:00 PM
I would just use it but thats me and I have an 1983 90hp Johnson and I dont use it much at all and I never throw out old fuel I always use it and have never had a problem. I have read all the threads about fuel going off and I think it is all BS I have never noticed any difference in performance with old or new fuel. My 2 bobs worth.

kingtin
12-08-2009, 02:15 PM
G'day

Kev... Can you siphon it by disconnecting the quick release fitting on the motor end, attaching more fuel line if need be and then using the primer bulb to start the siphoning? May be slow but would be the simplest way with the situation you're in.

Dave

Dave, it's a 90 4 stroke merc. No primer bulb.

kev

kingtin
12-08-2009, 02:26 PM
I would just use it but thats me and I have an 1983 90hp Johnson and I dont use it much at all and I never throw out old fuel I always use it and have never had a problem. I have read all the threads about fuel going off and I think it is all BS I have never noticed any difference in performance with old or new fuel. My 2 bobs worth.

Mate, from the debates that have gone on here in the past, it has been the general consensus that older engines come to little or no harm, compared to modern ones.

This is from a post of mine a couple of years ago:

"Preignition: This type of abnormal combustion occurs when stale fuel mixture is ignited by an unintended source prior to spark plug firing. Preignition or Surface ignition is aggravated by the fact, that each rotation of the engine in which ignition is initiated by an uncontrolled source in the combustion chamber, the energy released raises the temperature at that point. Each subsequent cycle is more likely to preignite from that unintended ignition source. This situation will rapidly develop into "runaway" preignition and be self-sustaining with preignition continually advancing with every combustion cycle. Preignition will act like a very advanced spark, increasing the combustion temperature and pressure and increasing the tendency for detonation. Damage from this stage of preignition will appear similar to that of detonation and can occur in only minutes. There are many causes of abnormal combustion. If present, they must be identified and corrected in your service dept. Prior to delivering the boat to your customer. The most common causes of detonation and related preignition are fuel related. Such as low octane levels, poor quality fuel, and lean fuel mixture. The first two causes can be virtually eliminated by using only premium brand high-octane fuels. In recent years due to the elimination of lead from gasoline oil companies have begun using a variety of additives to establish octane level. These additives vary in quality from brand to brand. So use only the best. The third cause is lean fuel mixture and will not be eliminated so easily."

kev

Kleyny
12-08-2009, 04:02 PM
i went to my wrecker and got a external fuel pump.

Put a it of hoe on each end hook it up to a battery and bobs your uncle.

neil

thylacene
12-08-2009, 07:44 PM
If you genuinely cannot siphon it out, here are some tips used with bikes/cars over time. They are still internal combustion engines

Is your engine injected or carb?

If injected, does the ECM have an O2 sensor? If so, mixture will be adjusted automatically.

Adding a half a bottle of metho will absorb any condensation, and a top up with fresh fuel, tow it over a couple of speed humps etc to ensure that it is mixed. High density fuel (read premium) can separate over time. Adding some octane booster can also assist, but don't over do it. Tolulene also raises octane, but be careful, and do some research before use. As stated previously raising the octane rating will prevent pinging.

Premium generally will "last" longer. Personally I would not use ethanol supplemented fuel in a "mission critical" application.

If you do get it out, you don't have to throw it, you can mix it with fresh fuel and use it in land based vehicles.

These is based on personal experiences with cars and bikes. With seven bikes in the shed, some of them get to sit for a while.

Disclaimer: your engine, your choices

Cheers

Thy

Roughasguts
12-08-2009, 07:59 PM
I remove the fuel hose just before the fuel water seperator, that hose is directly from the fuel tank.

Then stick a 10mm plastic hose inside the hose from the fuel tank, it self seals.

Then run the clear 10mm hose out through the transom bung hole, and then syphon it out it flows pretty quickly in to jerry cans with out the hose going up over the transom.

FNQCairns
12-08-2009, 08:04 PM
Years ago old fuel or lean running could lead to burnt valves, if the fuel you have is outside of what mercury mapped to compensate for you might also run that risk???

cheers fnq

deefa66
12-08-2009, 08:09 PM
DITTO for me,( roughasguts) I also have a merc 90 4strk, can even add the bulb just to do the syphoning.

black runner
12-08-2009, 08:10 PM
As roughasguts says, syphon is the way to go. I have permanently fitted a tap at the fuel filter that I fit a drain hose to for emptying the tank if required. The primer starts the flow into gerry tanks. You need to disconnect the quick release otherwise air can be sucked back through the fuel sytem.

Cheers

Roughasguts
12-08-2009, 09:00 PM
Oooops kinda for got to mention to get most of the fuel out!!!! wind up the jockey wheel to raise the bow!

And then jack the trailer wheel up on the opposite side of the fuel tank pick up. Be lucky to be 1/2 a litre left in the tank after doing that.

Cheers.

BM
12-08-2009, 10:28 PM
I would just use it but thats me and I have an 1983 90hp Johnson and I dont use it much at all and I never throw out old fuel I always use it and have never had a problem. I have read all the threads about fuel going off and I think it is all BS I have never noticed any difference in performance with old or new fuel. My 2 bobs worth.

Interesting perspective! Professionals around the globe refer to the damaging effects of stale fuel and I've repaired many engines myself suffering from old fuel. Its not a myth, its plain and simple engine dynamics.

As fuel degrades one of its problems is it loses octane (ie: its ability to withstand spontaneous combustion). Therefore, as the piston rises and compresses the fuel mixture, rather than being ignited by the sparkplug, it PRE-ignites by hotspots of carbon on the piston crown or the sheer compression itself and the cylinder fires WELL before its due to fire. So the piston is still rising in the cylinder as the explosion occurs (beyond the normal timing advance) and then the sparkplug fires and any unburnt charge ignites resulting in two flamefronts/explosions that collide within the combustion chamber causing a shockwave (a ping) between these 2 colliding flame fronts which detonates pistons. The pistons typically start being eaten away at the outer edge of the crown but in severe cases the shockwave will burn a hole through the piston crown or crack the piston crown.

Heres another interesting fact for all, a good friend of mine is the General Manager at a large Mitsubishi outlet. They have in writing as a directive from head office that they are NOT allowed to tell their customers that numerous engine problems are being caused by poor quality fuel as the oil company's will sue them immediately. Now they have to wear these repairs even though they know the fuel is the cause of the problem.

Fuel today is not like it used to be. In fact, fuel probably began to nosedive about the time unleaded ws introduced.

cheers

sandbankmagnet
12-08-2009, 10:49 PM
I have a question. If you are to get rid of old fuel, how do you dispose of it? Bonfire??

BM
12-08-2009, 11:05 PM
Vehicle or lawn equipment is generally a pretty safe option.

Burning it (fire) is also fine as long as you are careful!!

Roughasguts
12-08-2009, 11:41 PM
I have a question. If you are to get rid of old fuel, how do you dispose of it? Bonfire??

I chuck a bit of oil in it and then stick it in a little 1 litre plastic bottle and drill a small hole in the lid, Then squirt it on the weeds and set fire to it. Front yard can go through 10 litres easy.

Good fun but when your half p!ssed you can loose a few hairs on your hand! and the neighbours seem to come outside and take photo's of you Dancing when your leg catches on fire, and then send to A Current affair and the local papers.

But Hey I need the extra Fire training.;D

But 5 or so litres at a time in the wifes car with fresh fuel won't hurt it unless your towing heavy loads up hill.

seastorm
13-08-2009, 02:36 AM
This might be worth a go take the fuel line off near the filter then if you have a air compressor stick the air line into where you fill the boat/tank up and seal it up then pump some air in and it should flow out near the fuel filter under preasure. just make sure there is now water in your air compressor.

Roughasguts
13-08-2009, 02:56 AM
This might be worth a go take the fuel line off near the filter then if you have a air compressor stick the air line into where you fill the boat/tank up and seal it up then pump some air in and it should flow out near the fuel filter under preasure. just make sure there is now water in your air compressor.

You could but it's a bit risky!!

Apart from too much pressure can buckle your tank.

Airflow can cause a static electricity spark just like lightning causes all those light shows. But if you grounded all the componants then it should be safe.

I know it's boring being a safety guy, and the chances of the tank going bang are so remote but it's still possible given the right conditions.

But if you wanted to go down this track, take off your fuel tank filler and put some thread tape on the cap to seal. Then shove the air hose in to the fuel tank vent to give some pressure only about 3 pounds max though.

cormorant
13-08-2009, 10:07 AM
Can also block vent and just pressurise teh tank slightly to speed up the process.


Couple of things on this thread

Premium lasting longer -- Not sure n this as 2 years ago the reverse was the case. The light volitiles disappear quicker out of premium but who knows with the current mixes. Phone your distributer and ask how long they will suggest it is OK stored in a tank and in a sealed metal container. Not long as they know it deteriorated. Remember they are using different blends at different times and depending on what they are starting with as well in different regions of Australia. There are very few true rules on what specs fuel must meet sothey have a wide variety of ways to meet the specs.

The only way to get fuel to last longer would be to use a fuel stabiliser but they have limits as well and temp range in which they work well.

Metho - equals etahnol. Now if you wouldn't use ethanol fuel why the hell would you use metho in your tank

Fuel enhancers- well you can't fix old stale fuel . Full stop. Phone the fuel company and ask what brand stabiliser they recomend for storage and their blend.

Dilluting stale fuel is not a good option as you still end up with all the heavy oils and waxes varnish and some just do not go back in solution so end up in tank, filter , injector and carby bowls.

kingtin
13-08-2009, 05:15 PM
Thanks for all the replies.

I did as Roughasguts suggested. Detached the hose from the water separator and joined on another length to go out through the bung hole. Having a pod at the rear, and heaps of underfloor flotation, didn't help in my attempts at directing the hose down the black hole of calcutta to the bung hole::).

Tried taping the hose to a straightened coat hanger and with the aid of a torch, directed it towards the little shaft of light shining through the bunghole. Twenty minutes later, and with a knackered back and lots of cursing, I finally admitted defeat and lifted the hose over the tramson, dismounted, and commenced to get high. ;D

Five sucks later and with a mouthful of petrol, a trickle emerged from the hose which was kinked in umpteen places due to the wise guys at Bunnings rolling 'em up and cling wrapping 'em..............did I tell you I left it in the sun for 20 mins..........fully stretched with a brick on each end.............this after running scalding water through it and needing each kink with my gnarled teeth?...........all to no avail as the kinks simply returned a couple of minutes later. ::)

Anyways, 2 hrs and 5 jerry cans full later, the job was done. Now all I need is to fill it again and get the bugger back on the water..........weather...........health........... deckie's shifts permitting.

kev

Chimo
13-08-2009, 05:30 PM
Kev

Did you tip a little of the fuel into a jar to have a look and check that the fuel is suss or not?

Chimo

Luc
13-08-2009, 05:50 PM
Your local dump should be able to take it or if you live where there's a refinery handy, you can take it to them. It'll end up in their 'slops' tanks and be re-refined.

Luc

billfisher
13-08-2009, 06:01 PM
It's a bit late now, but you should never siphon fuel by mouth. If you swallow some and it goes down the wrong way it can destroy your lungs. Also it contains toxic chemicals such as benzene which can be absorbed through your skin, so you should avoid contact with petrol.

kingtin
13-08-2009, 07:29 PM
Kev

Did you tip a little of the fuel into a jar to have a look and check that the fuel is suss or not?

Chimo

Mate, it was perfectly clean with no precipitate, and smelled just as it does at the bowser..........gave me a stinking headache syphoning it. I reckon I could've left it in, unless somebody knows something that I don't.

kev

kingtin
13-08-2009, 07:33 PM
It's a bit late now, but you should never siphon fuel by mouth. If you swallow some and it goes down the wrong way it can destroy your lungs. Also it contains toxic chemicals such as benzene which can be absorbed through your skin, so you should avoid contact with petrol.

Mate, with all the crap that I've gone through lately and picking up the dreaded fags again, petrol can join the queue to claim me ;D

Thanks for the advice though, I had a smaller guage bulb but was too bloody lazy to go back to bunnings and get a step down...........it's on my shopping list.

kev

Chimo
13-08-2009, 07:54 PM
Hi Kev

So did you actually compare fresh service station stock with with your jar? What now. Stick it back in, use it in the car?

Personally I have only had fuel go off once and it was really old 50:1 that was in a plastic tub sitting in my little tinny in the carport with a tarp over it for months. It smelled so different and so bad that I had no doubt about it being fit only for weed killing and it did that well............

The ULP in the SS tank (that I try to keep full) in the bottom of the hull of the Vagabond never seems to be affected even when it sits for a months or more.
Blowed if I know, maybe if it is kept cool and there is little air in with it it lasts OK or better at least.

Cheers
Chimo

Roughasguts
13-08-2009, 08:42 PM
Lucky you were syphoning petrol there Kingtin.

I would rather a gob full of petrol than a gob full from the chemical toilet.;D

kingtin
14-08-2009, 09:35 AM
Hi Kev

So did you actually compare fresh service station stock with with your jar? What now. Stick it back in, use it in the car?

Personally I have only had fuel go off once and it was really old 50:1 that was in a plastic tub sitting in my little tinny in the carport with a tarp over it for months. It smelled so different and so bad that I had no doubt about it being fit only for weed killing and it did that well............

The ULP in the SS tank (that I try to keep full) in the bottom of the hull of the Vagabond never seems to be affected even when it sits for a months or more.
Blowed if I know, maybe if it is kept cool and there is little air in with it it lasts OK or better at least.

Cheers
Chimo

Yeah mate. I had just filled up a small can at the service station for use in the mower. It was less than a week old and looked and smelled the same as what came out of the boat........just a tad bit darker, but that could be due to different processing, I don't know?

I've just worked it out on the calendar and the petrol was exactly 31 weeks old. It's going in the Prado.

kev

Chimo
14-08-2009, 09:40 AM
Thanks Kev

Interesting me thinks!

So if the tank was just about full and it (ULP with no two stroke oil) was kept cool with little air contact except the breather as it is in SS and depot tanks what is the difference between them storing it or us storing it in large volumes ie boat SS or Al fuel tanks?

Cheers
Chimo

ozscott
14-08-2009, 11:46 AM
Storing it full reduces opportunity for condensation for a start. I have never had fuel go off in terms of smelling or looking bad by doing it full in alloy tanks. I also use stabliser at times to be on the safe side.

Cheers

kingtin
14-08-2009, 03:40 PM
Thanks Kev

Interesting me thinks!

So if the tank was just about full and it (ULP with no two stroke oil) was kept cool with little air contact except the breather as it is in SS and depot tanks what is the difference between them storing it or us storing it in large volumes ie boat SS or Al fuel tanks?

Cheers
Chimo

Dunno mate. I've read some bad things, and I've read that some folk have regularly used old fuel with no ill effects.

I suppose the criteria is not how old is it?.............. but how stale is it? I've seen and smelt, some crap stuff that's only twelve weeks old and yet twice now, with the Whittley (100 litres in a 210 tank so plenty of air in there) and my current rig, (100 litres in a 120 tank) I've had fuel over 6 months old that looks and smells like new.

kev

Chimo
14-08-2009, 04:19 PM
Kev

Keep it full and keep it as cool as you can seems to be the trick.

I know to stop pouring ULP when it comes out the breathers. I fill it slow, usually out of jerry cans, and the cans sometimes sit for a while too depending whats been happening.

Cheers
Chimo

black runner
14-08-2009, 10:26 PM
Tempurature is the biggest issue with fuel as the higher the ambient temp the more aromatics evaporate from the fuel which in turn affects octane. From the research I have done, significant amounts of water in fuel are not caused by tank condensation but rather contamination from leaking fillers/breathers or water in the suppliers tanks. Even with a relatively empty tank you would be lucky to generate a teaspoon of water from condensatation.

Cheers

thylacene
14-08-2009, 10:43 PM
Condensation is not as much of an issue in Tassie as you don't get the variation in temp and humidity.

In Canberra, it can be -5 and foggy at 6 AM and almost 30 by 2 pm. Heat causes expansion and breather allows to expel, then when it cools off (and it can do this quickly) the moist foggy air is drawn into the tank.

It is possible to get more than a teaspoon full in nine months here. Found this out after a tank repair on an old BSA we did up. Drained the tank and had it welded, half filled with fuel using water preventing funnel and then tested for leaks, sat the bike on the stand for 9 months as other mechanical work and parts chasing occurred and when we went to start it there was almost a float bowl full of water. We drained some from the tank (water goes to the bottom), added some metho and away it went. Not something I would like to have to try while afloat though.

I use a water preventing funnel because I have had issues with servos with ordinary fuel. They shut the local one down for almost two years to rebuild due to leaking tanks.

I used the remainder of the drum used to fill the beesa in my honda and it ran fine, the carby bowl was dry before we started it the first time as we had the carb apart.

The tropics can also have condensation issues due to high humidity also.

Damn I miss Tassie.

Cheers

Taz

Roughasguts
14-08-2009, 11:08 PM
Condensation is not as much of an issue in Tassie as you don't get the variation in temp and humidity.

In Canberra, it can be -5 and foggy at 6 AM and almost 30 by 2 pm. Heat causes expansion and breather allows to expel, then when it cools off (and it can do this quickly) the moist foggy air is drawn into the tank.

It is possible to get more than a teaspoon full in nine months here. Found this out after a tank repair on an old BSA we did up. Drained the tank and had it welded, half filled with fuel using water preventing funnel and then tested for leaks, sat the bike on the stand for 9 months as other mechanical work and parts chasing occurred and when we went to start it there was almost a float bowl full of water. We drained some from the tank (water goes to the bottom), added some metho and away it went. Not something I would like to have to try while afloat though.

I use a water preventing funnel because I have had issues with servos with ordinary fuel. They shut the local one down for almost two years to rebuild due to leaking tanks.

I used the remainder of the drum used to fill the beesa in my honda and it ran fine, the carby bowl was dry before we started it the first time as we had the carb apart.

The tropics can also have condensation issues due to high humidity also.

Damn I miss Tassie.

Cheers

Taz

A Racor, or Easterner, fuel water seperator can fix up the water or "condensation" in the tank getting in to the carbs problem for you Taz.

Just drain the plastic bowl in the filter every trip and your good to go.

Cheers.

thylacene
14-08-2009, 11:23 PM
Using water preventing inline filters these days, but on the old classic it didn't look right.

thanks for hte info.

Cheers

Thy

Roughasguts
14-08-2009, 11:56 PM
Using water preventing inline filters these days, but on the old classic it didn't look right.

thanks for hte info.

Cheers

Thy

Heres a Tip the Racor filter and head and drain bowl, are bloody exspensive, Over $200.00 for the set up and then $75.00ea for the filters.


But to buy The Easterner head bowl and filter all up for $75.00 and the filters to replace are only $19.50 each.

There almost exactly the same units, and the filters are interchangable with the Racor.

I have just replaced my Racor filter with the Easterner and am gratefull for the price saving.

Cheers.

Chimo
15-08-2009, 07:34 AM
Kingtin

Forgot to mention the reason for the slow rate of fuel filling.

All fuel that goes into the tank goes thru a large diesel filtering funnel; the one with the upright gauze tube strainer that also catches water.

Cheers
Chimo

Lapras
15-08-2009, 08:05 AM
Kev,

Sounds like you have it sorted, but thought you might like the attached - got it from the BP site. It basically says that air and light are the problems and even 2 weeks can be too long, although I assume that's worse case (ie. fuel sitting in a bucket in the sun). I use an ETEC which I think has a sealled fuel system so I will be using 12 months.

Have fun,

Dave

black runner
15-08-2009, 09:50 PM
What I didn't mention in my earlier post is that the additional fuel tap for syphoning the tank is actually connected to the other "in-flow" port (so the fuel actually comes out the inflow) and not the other outflow port on the filter head. This allows the fuel to be syphoned directly from the tank via the filter head without going through the filter. Drains more quickly this way too. The tap and barb stay in place permanently and I just slip a length of hose over, turn on and a couple of pumps of the bulb if I want to drain the tank.

Cheers