I bought a gennie. Just a coupla quick questions

[Reel Nauti]

Thanks to all who helped me so much in my previous thread. I bought a generator, 2nd hand - Honda G200 genuine 5 HP 2KVA made in Japan. The generator itself is an Australian Dunlite. It's in good condition, starts first pull, and has only been used twice a year for brief periods, so I'm told. There's no bells and whistles, and that's ok, for $250 I'm happy.

I'm told to keep it honest I should run a lead light when the gennie's on. I think I understand the reasoning for this but not real sure. I was going to run a lead to a power surge board, and from there to the freezer. How do you think that will go? Should the lead light come out of the surge board, or straight from the gennie? To run a computer a UPS out of the surge protector board should suffice do you think? Any other tips or info would be greatly appreciated. I'm getting there slowly, and expect to head off in a couple of weeks, all being well.

Many thanks again

Dave

[Angla]

You shoulkd be alright plugging into the power board.

The main thoughts should be to not overload any wiring and to also not run too long a lead that voltage drop is a problem. Overloading is your last enemy I think.

The 2Kva should run a maximum of 8 amps. Wether that is a peak load or a sustainable load should be written in the booklet or on a plate on the machine.

Cheers
Chris

[PADDLES]

g'day dave, buy a good heavy duty lead for your first cable to the powerboard and voltage drop shouldn't be a problem for the sort of loads you will be powering. if you want to really make sure then buy some 2.5sq.mm round cable and make your own. it'd be best to have your electronics powered from your ups to get rid of any spikes when the freezer cuts in and out, i mean the power supply in the pc should be able to handle it, but it's better to be safe than sorry and run it off a good clean supply. the lead light just gives the alternator a bit of load, leave it plugged in.

[Reel Nauti]

Thanks. Am I to understand that from 1 of the power outlets off the gennie, I run a lead to surge protector board for electricity I want, and from the other power outlet on the gennie I run direct to an incandescent light to prevent the 'hunting' etc. Is that right or run the incandescent light from the surge protector as well and leave a spare outlet on the gennie?

Also, as it's not the silent variety, would 25mtrs of heavy power lead be ok to keep it that far from the camp?

Thanks

Dave

[GBC]

I'd be inverting from a battery to run the computer while the genny is off. Then recharge the battery.

[Bros]

The light should be around 100w as it gives the generator load. this is not for the generator but the engine governor as some are not the best at minimum load. Make sure you check the voltage and frequency and adjust the governor if necessary.

[Angla]

Thanks. Am I to understand that from 1 of the power outlets off the gennie, I run a lead to surge protector board for electricity I want, and from the other power outlet on the gennie I run direct to an incandescent light to prevent the 'hunting' etc. Is that right or run the incandescent light from the surge protector as well and leave a spare outlet on the gennie?

Also, as it's not the silent variety, would 25mtrs of heavy power lead be ok to keep it that far from the camp?

Thanks

Dave

You can have the light in any position. You may as well put it in a useful position.
1 x 25 metre heavy duty lead and then the power board with all the stuff plugged in will be fine.

Cheers
Chris

[Reel Nauti]

Another question: With the power running a freezer, will it hurt the freezer if/when the gennie runs out of juice? Would it be best to turn the freezer off before this happens or is it ok for things to stop when the gennie runs dry? And restarting: give the gennie a minute to warm up and then turn the light and freezer back on?

Thanks again

Dave

[cormorant]

mate uses a tote tank on the genny as it will run longer and is lighter to move around. Also with no fuel in it there is no smell in the truck between spots as the breather on the tote can be closed right off. Can swap from one tote to another quickly without even a splutter when we have to. There is also a adaptor that fits straight onto the top of jerry cans whick means only carrying one type of fuel container.



The replacement cap for the jerry can came in a "flow n go" siphon ( dam it's a good siphon) and we just attached a Hose and outboard fuel connector to it and same connector to the genny witha 2 way switch so we can use tank on genny or the jerry cans with the cap on. The cap doesn't look strong but we have given them a beating and they have avent built in. We never leave it on when transporting.

http://www.flo-n-go.com/products/product_maxflo/

And the jerry cans fits cheaper copies with same thread as well

http://www.scepterconsumer.com/auto/specialty/

[PADDLES]

nah, it shouldn't hurt the freezer when the genny runs out of juice dave. long periods of "brownout" or overload can hurt your motor but the genny should conk out fairly quickly under load. that jerry can adapter idea of cormorant's is a beauty, i've never come across that before. i'd run a lead straight from your genny to a powerboard in your camp and have the incandescent lead light plugged into the power board. are you still going to have batteries, a battery charger and an inverter for when the genny isn't running?

[GBC]

You won't run a dunlite out of fuel in less than about 8 hours under decent load (3 times what you're talking) - not an issue.

[Reel Nauti]

Thanks all. I'm going to run from the gennie, to a surge protection board, then to my clipsal earth leakage unit which has 4 outlets and will run the freezer and the lights. The computer will be powered by an inverter running from the battery when the gennie is off, and when the gennie is on the battery charger will be hooked to the battery. So, if all goes to plan, and if running the freezer for 4 hrs a day is enough to keep it frozen, the battery will be charging for 4 hrs a day. From a 4 amp charger do you think this will be ok? The computer will only be on for maybe 2hrs a day, if that some days. I'm looking more at running a desktop than a laptop as a mate has access to an unlimited supply of them should something go wrong. The next thing to determine is the size of the inverter.

Also got the stopper and hosing for the keg to convert from seawater to fresh. I'm giving that a trial run on the potbelly tonight.

Cheers all

Dave

[GBC]

4 amps is stuff all (actually less). You'll need a better charger to keep the whole show running efficiently.

Some dunlites came with a 12v d.c. outlet - they are rated at 8 amps. Have a look for two screw down outlets and if that machine has them, just use them instead of a 4 amp charger - or use them in conjunction with the charger for a 12a charge.

[PADDLES]

i disagree gbc, i mean i agree that a 4A charger is tiny, but if dave's only running his pc off the battery then there's no way it'll chew 16Ah per day (4 hours x 4A).

as long as it's only the pc running off it and the battery is in good condition then that'll be fine i reckon even allowing for inefficiency in the inverter. if he was to use a laptop with a 12V lead then that'd be even better. obviously a bigger charger would allow quicker charging in an emergency.

[Reel Nauti]

I can get a bigger charger if you guys think it's necessary as I haven't yet replaced my old broken 4 amp.
I've been told the desktop will be very hard on the power, so how would it be if I run only the central processing unit off the invertor, but the monitor and keyboard/mouse from the surge protector board. I know this would mean I'd need the gennie on, but that's ok too as I only want maybe an hour or 2 on line to use Windows Live Messenger to 'talk'with my family, check the news on ABC online, emails, and maybe sometimes pop into Ausfish. Some days I might not even turn the puter on if I'm laid up.
I guess it would be commonsense that when the invertor is hooked to the battery and running the CPU, the battery charger be disconnected?

Thanks

Dave

[PADDLES]

ahhhhhhhhh, well if you're going to to have to buy a charger then gbc's right, buy something a bit bigger. the battery charger should be fine to be left connected to the battery (whilst the genny is running) and the inverter is in use. i'd personally run as much of your electronic gear as you can through the inverter, it will provide you with power conditioning and protect the gear. the battery itself will provide a form of surge/spike protection before it even gets to the inverter.

you said that you were going to use an "earth leakage" unit, this will not work the way you are used to at home. be aware that your generator will be powering a system that is not earthed (and by australian standards nor does it have to be), what this means is that the generator's system is "floating" with respect to earth (that you are standing on) so if a fault/short develops say to the case of your pc, you can be in contact with the case and standing barefoot on the ground and not get a zap because the genset's not connected to earth and the circuit back to the genset through earth (and you) is not complete. apologies if i have confused you with this last bit, i'm trying to say that an earth leakage type powerboard is not necessary and may be more trouble than it is worth with nuisance tripping in a marine environment that you will be in.

[cormorant]

My yamaha genny came with a earth spike and earth lead. It is a sine wave one good for computers. We trip the safety swith to check it is working with the test button. Havent tried it without the spike in the ground. Would that make a difference as it looks like the frame has a cable on it but the whole unit is on rubber feet.

One lessen we learnt with using Genny around a sandy environment is to keep it out of teh wind with a windbreak and well up off the ground. We had one die and becuase the actual windings are aircooled they are designed to suck air through as cooling and when pulled down we found the finest abrasive sand dust everywhere. We think it was windblown stuff. A lot of teh small ones have crap aircleaners as well

[Bros]

You will need a 15 A charger as you will only want to run it for 4 hrs and off for 20 hrs. During the down time the fridge will be continually drawing your battery down and you want to get it up in the 4 hrs provided so a 15 A smart charger is to go as they will bring your battery to near to 100% capacity and not overcharge the battery.

[Reel Nauti]

Thanks again all.
Bros I wasn't going to power the freezer at all when the gennie's off. Do you think an invertor running from a car battery would keep the freezer going for the 20hrs that the gennie will be off for? If so, I can do that. I've been told and hoping that 4 hrs a day running off the gennie will be enough to maintain a frozen state of the contents. 2 hrs in the morning, and 2hrs in the evening. Paddles I think I can understand what you are saying, so I'll give the earth leakage unit a miss.
Commorant, I understand the sand bit and the gennie will be placed on 12mm ply supported about 30cms above the ground. It will also be placed where I can put a small tarp around 3 sides of it and some sort of roof. The tarp won't be in contact with gennie of course, and the roof will be at least high enough for me to be able to fill the gennie with fuel, check oil, and pull start.

Dave

[Bros]

Bros I wasn't going to power the freezer at all when the gennie's off. Do you think an invertor running from a car battery would keep the freezer going for the 20hrs that the gennie will be off for?

No I assumed incorrectly that you had a portable fridge e.g Engel, Waeco etc running as a freezer

[Reel Nauti]

Thanks all. Everything seems to be coming together now getting ready to go. One more question I have: I'm guessing I'll be drawing about 3 amps max from the gennie and only some of the time. I want to place it away from the camp and was looking at 50mtrs of 10amp lead. I realise that will cause a power drop at the point of delivery, but do you think it would be too significant? I've googled and it seems it might be ok, but thought I'd put the question out there for those of you who might well know.

Many thanks

Dave

[finga]

My yamaha genny came with a earth spike and earth lead. It is a sine wave one good for computers. We trip the safety swith to check it is working with the test button. Havent tried it without the spike in the ground. Would that make a difference as it looks like the frame has a cable on it but the whole unit is on rubber feet.


Very important with all generators.
Have an earth stake a bit bit of wire connecting to the generator chassis.
Watering the stake with some salty water will do it no harm either and will make the earth better.
Also check to make sure the generator is wired to allow the safety switch to function.
Either check by using the test button or better to borrow an earth leakage CB type tester dodad.
You can borrow mine if you can't find one.

[cormorant]

I keep the genny pretty close and use short leads and have quality 15amp outdoor leads and I try and keep them off the gound so I feel safer running if it is raining.. Better leads less voltage drop. Can here if anything is up and hopefully see if thieves are looking. Always best effeciency to run a genny at load for shorter periods so when it is switched on use as much of the watts it puts out as possible. We try and be nearby and active when it on so noise is just in the background. We never leave it unattended just like a fire due to fire risks where we generally camp even though it has a spark arrester in the exhauset at night you can see just what it can throw out .

The reason I keep it close is that if it irritating me then it is probably doing same to others and besides they are pretty quiet at mid load. We don't use it a lot

I would try and put it down wind of you ( for the time of day you will run it) as they exhaust smell gets me fast.

[Reel Nauti]

Thanks. I'll be remote, quite isolated, and not another sole within miles. Is the 50 metres too far for amperage drop? Also Finga, the earth spike, should I fit this to my gennie that I'm guessing is about 12 year old?

Cheers

Dave

[finga]

Yes.
The earth stake is connected to generator by means of a flexible cable of able 6mm in size.
Make sure the earth leakage works too.

50m may be to long for extension lead.
What size is the cable in the extension lead and what do you intend of having going all at once?
I'll work it out for you to be on the safe side.

[Reel Nauti]

I honestly couldn't tell you wire size. It is the red and yellow 'heavy duty' lead from Bunnings with the clear fittings on each end. Running off the power will be the 140ltr freezer, and 2 x 100w fluoro's. At tiimes when the computer is on, I'm told it will draw about 170w. I've got a clipsal earth leakage board, heavy duty stuff, but I guess it would be useless if the generator wasn't earthed through the spike as you say.

Thanks for your help

Dave

[Reel Nauti]

Also, how long should the spike be? would a 300mm piece of rio tent peg suffice?

[finga]

Also, how long should the spike be? would a 300mm piece of rio tent peg suffice?
mate, in sand the longer the better. I'd drive a 1200mm bit down if I could or a series of 600mm ones about a metre apart and join them all up with the same wire.
Stainless would be better as rust is an insulator of sorts.
Pure salty water on it every day too....just to get a better bond to the earth mass

Also have a gander at your freezer and it should have a wattage rating. What is it??
Also 100w fluoro's doesn't sound right. Are they 4 footers or 2 footers??
I'll assume the extension lead is either 1.5 or 1.75mm2

[Twisted_Pair]

Reel Nauti,

Firstly I totally agree with finga re: earth stake to be used, in fact I'm pretty sure it's in AS/NZ3010 Electrical installations - Generator sets.

I have calculated some figures for flexible leads for 50m in length allowing 50% permissable voltage drop (ie 6V) they are:
1.0mm good for up to 2.8A
1.5mm good for up to 4.1A
2.5mm good for up to 6.8A
4mm good for up to 11A

I'd recommend a 2.5mm cable size. A 50m extension lead is bloody long and I wouldn't use one that length any smaller IMO.

finga I think the 100W fluorescent lights mentioned are actually 20W CFL but equivalent to 100W incandescent, if you know what I mean.:P

Regards, T_P

[finga]

I did a bit of reading.
AS 3012:2003 Electrical Installations-Construction and Demolition Sites Clause 2.6.7 states some maximum extension lead lengths.
For your 15A type leads if the conductor size is:
1.5mm then max. length is 25m
2.5mm then max. length is 40m
4.0mm then max length is 65m

If you do not want to do the earth stake thing you can isolate the generator windings and use the RCD oe ELCB etc etc (safety switch) or if the gene has a permanently connect RCD you don't need a stake but your local sparky dude should be able to tell you if your gene complies to the requirements of AS 3012:2003 clause 2.4.6.3.
But if the gene does not comply with AS 3012 then a stake is needed.

There's no mention of earth stakes in AS 3010 so to speak.

[Mr__Bean]

If placing the generator a long distance away to keep from the noise, then consider having it closer and digging a sand pit to put it in.

When I beach camped at xmas I didn't realise what all the pits were that had been dug in the sand, they were about a metre in diameter, 600mm deep and had all the sand banked up onto the inland side.

That was until people pulled in next to me and put their generator in one, virtually no noise behind the bank of sand.

Not recommended if in dirt but if the genny is on a sand bank and drainage isn't a risk then this works well.

- Darren

[Reel Nauti]

I'm just having difficulty understanding that I bought this gennie of an electrician who used it a couple of times a year. There is no earth leakeage switch on it, there is simply an on/off. There is no wire nor any stake to go to ground there is just the engine, coupled to the dunlite, with 2 x 240 volt outlets. That's its, basic as can be. I was going to run the lead to surge protector then to my earth leakeage breaker unit which gives me 4 outlets. What's the go? Will the earth leakage breaker work if there is not an earth spike? I can easily fit one, I just don't understand how for 12 odd years this gennie has never had it. I am safety conscious, especially being remote and on my own. I'll use a 25 mtr lead instead of the 50 but I don't know the wire sizes.

Dave

[finga]

If you know the bloke ask him to test your earth leakage on the gene.
He should be able to test trip times, currents and 1/2 or full wave
If it works... good. If not investigate.
If your running a max of 25m on a 15A type lead you should be right.

[Bros]

Will the earth leakage breaker work if there is not an earth spike?

No

Firstly forget the term earth leakage. The way the units work is they detect an inbalance between the two conductors. Your appliance is connected by an active and neutral conductor and the current in both must be matched, if it differs by 30ma the RCD will trip. As you have no earth on the generator there is no return path so the current is the same in the active and neutral even if one side of the appliance fails to the appliance frame nothing will happen and you won't get a shock.
To be sure do some checks. Run the generator and check with a multimeter between the generator frame and each outlet 240 v pin and the result should be zero. If it is no RCD can possibly operate. If you do get 240v then one side of the generator output is either connected to the frame or it is faulty.

[Reel Nauti]

Thanks fella's. I don't know the bloke I bought it off so I won't ask him about it, but I'll ask someone else. I have done a bit of research and there's more to it than just attaching a cable to the frame and then to a ground spike. Some wiring has to be added/changed/ modified to enable this to work, and on some sites which I googled it recommends strongly against doing this sort of thing for some mobile camping generators. They do though recommend it for larger stationary generators. As I'm miles out of my depth, I'll see a sparkie who might be able to sit with me, look at the generator, and options.Many years ago I had a carpet cleaning business, and in the van was a 3 kva gennie which was used when cleaning a home with power disconnection. There were quite a few of us carpet cleaners, all with gennies, and all running straight out of the vans. I didn't know anything about it then except to plug in the vacs etc and away you go. Never did I realise there was so much more to it.
With the potential for so much danger surrounding 240 volts, and with the thousands upon thousands of people running little gensets, it seems amazing there isn't a legacy of multiple problems.
It's interesting.

Thanks all

Dave

[finga]

Mate, that's why they brought out AS 3012:2003 Electrical Installations-Construction and Demolition Sites.
All the gene connections diagrams etc are in there and if the gene is connected correctly they recommend no earth stake.
If you want a copy let me know and I'll see if I can email a copy. (PM me your email address)
If not I can bung one in the Post.

Main thing is not to worry too much about all the technicalities and gobbly gook jargon crap. All that does is confuse the buggery out of lay-people like yourself.
If the safety switch thingo trips when the test button is pressed then all is good.

[Reel Nauti]

Thanks for all your help. I just want to make sure I've got it right as I'm pretty crook and don't want any dramas while I'm on the island. Just getting through each day is going to be difficult enough, but I've still got my pride.

Dave