View Full Version : Spin Gear for barra
Well , I'm still not convinced. :bulb:
I keep hearing about all the advantages offered over baitcast gear ........ but I'm yet to really see / experience them - & certainly not enough to make me put down my favourite baitcasters.
With the exception of burning frogs ..... My baitcasters still rule the roost ( ease of use , comfort & ergonomics ) :-/
The features of a spin stick that makes for a good casting rod (handle & rod length) detract from the ability to work the outfit (IMHO) ..... I certainly wouldn't want to be hopping plastics or twitching HBs all day with a spin outfit .
I know I'll be shouted down from great heights over my opinion ....... Thats OK
Cheers
Chris
PS ... Yes .... If I was taking a novice barra fishing ..... I'd hand them my spin outfit
wheezer
05-07-2009, 10:04 AM
while for sure my BC quiver (4) far outweighs my spin outfits (1 going on 2) for impoundment i never leave my spin gear at home now. besides frogs i quite like working HB's on my shorter 6'6" spin outfit, just as comfortable as using my BC gear. for me BC's are still preferred though, lighter and better balanced plus any situation requiring accurate placement of a lure BC reigns supreme!
Dick Pasfield
05-07-2009, 10:14 AM
For nigh on twenty years I've used a mixture of both up here and the same mix elsewhere for near as long (before that it was hand lines).
One system is my right hand, one is my left. There's as much chance of dropping using one of those as there is of fishing with one arm tied behind my back.
Which is better generally, none really. Specifically, been so long I've forgotten. What feels right at the time, or is closer at hand.
(Just don't lose a stroke when you change hands;D;))
while for sure my BC quiver (4) far outweighs my spin outfits (1 going on 2) for impoundment i never leave my spin gear at home now. besides frogs i quite like working HB's on my shorter 6'6" spin outfit, just as comfortable as using my BC gear. for me BC's are still preferred though, lighter and better balanced plus any situation requiring accurate placement of a lure BC reigns supreme!
Hi Andrew ...... Like you I now carry a spin stick , though I have tried 4 (light to heavy matched with either a Daiwa Caldia 2500 or Certate 3000 .... settled in the middle) & I'm still not really happy .
So its just not a case of perception either ....... I feel much more connected to the baitcast outfit ( particularly low profiles)
So the spin outfit usually just ends up with a lightly weighted frog on it & is cast when the situation arises
Chris
SeekingBarradise
05-07-2009, 11:54 AM
Double post.:)
SeekingBarradise
05-07-2009, 12:00 PM
Hi Chris it sounds like you have a big training base with Bait Casters which would have you feeling comfy with a BC in your hands as muscle memory is familiar with this over thousands of hours etc.
This doesnt make what we are all currently doing as being the bee all and end all of technique, positions, setups and so on as fishing is one of the only sports where we pretty much totally self judge instead of having others judge us like all other organised sports. In fact some of the worst positions for striking and fighting fish appears on many american bass presentations. A few in the tournament scene think everything american is better than aussie tactics but there are a few good things going on over here as well. It needs to be noted for the sake of not getting in arguements that there are stacks of good developments in the U.S that we can use out here. Make your own mind up on the positions you see.:)
Self judgement for many of us is like a doc prescribing their own meds at times. Another chapter there.
A different angle (body/arm/hands) may feel awkward if less than 1% of your time is spent with a spin setup. If you are right handed try writing left handed for a day!!!:D In some sports tallies of over half a million reps have been recorded with people still improving. Some have been well in to the millions.
But if they are in the wrong positions (shit training) a hundred million reps won't see them improve so the adage of time on the water doesn't ring true for many. It would be like training for a footy game after drinking a carton of beer etc, where would this get you in 20 years? e.g. not everyone you see driving will be the next Craig Lowndes.
Try changing a goal kickers runup or kicking position and watch their successful percentages fall at the start but after they have enough time to adapt they can make improvements and be better than they were in the beginning. I remember you telling me you didnt' feel comfy casting your spin setup. You might have hundreds of hours on Barra Bait casters but only a few hours on Barra Spin Gear so there is a lot of opportunity there for you to run with.
It might just be that you have many setups to get your ideal BC setup, so you might need to go out and buy more spin gear, now there is a good excuse to get to the tackle shop. If time was divided 50/50 between spin and BC i bet you will be a spinning machine, so you will need to plan more barra trips to do this.
One question i would ask: Is your rod a snake killing stick or a delivery tool?
Note: Do we need rods for barra that can lift tuna on board like Dean Lukin? This might be one of the problems people are having with their spin setup.
Happy days i reckon. Have fun experimenting because at the end of the day it's tinkering then fishing which is a fun sport/hobby to be a part of.
Cheers Lyndon.:)
Hi Chris it sounds like you have a big training base with Bait Casters which would have you feeling comfy with a BC in your hands as muscle memory is familiar with this over thousands of hours etc.
This doesnt make what we are all currently doing as being the bee all and end all of technique, positions, setups and so on as fishing is one of the only sports where we pretty much totally self judge instead of having others judge us like all other organised sports. Self judgement for many of us is like a doc prescribing their own meds at times. Another chapter there.
A different angle (body/arm/hands) may feel awkward if less than 1% of your time is spent with a spin setup. In some sports tallies of over half a million reps have been recorded with people still improving. Some have been well in to the millions.
But if they are in the wrong positions or training less than perfect a hundred million reps won't see them improve so the adage of time on the water doesn't ring true for many. It would be like training for a footy game after drinking a carton of beer etc, where would this get you in 20 years?
Try changing a goal kickers runup or kicking position and watch their successful percentages fall at the start but after they have enough time to adapt they can make improvements and be better than they were in the beginning. I remember you telling me you didnt' feel comfy casting your spin setup.
It might just be that you have many setups to get your ideal BC setup, so you might need to go out and buy more spin gear, now there is a good excuse to get to the tackle shop. If time was divided 50/50 between spin and BC i bet you will be a spinning machine, so you will need to plan more barra trips to do this.
Happy days i reckon. Have fun experimenting because at the end of the day it's tinkering then fishing which is a fun sport/hobby to be a part of.
Cheers Lyndon.
Hi Lyndon
I do agree with you to some extent. ( like having golf lessons - my game went to crap ... before seeing the improvement!
A couple things go against your thought !
*I've only been double handed baitcasting for the last 9 months - so this is a total change from my round arm casting technique / position when using single handed.
*I'm an ex rock fisho where I did use HSS gear for pelagics (many 10s of thousand casts) - Longer rods & heavier slugs though..... & casting from an elevated position
* I still use spin gear ..... but they are single handed.
Aside from the comfort ..... I still don't like the rod angles & wrist position when working a lure - (cocked down rather than the neutral position of a baitcaster) - But thats just my opinion
Thanks for your input Lyndon
Chris
SeekingBarradise
05-07-2009, 12:55 PM
Chris thanks for the update. All good with the rock casting for a base.
I disagree with you regarding hand position. Most peoples baitcaster setup is weaker than a spin setup where the lifting comes from a neutral hammer grip in the strike position with a spin setup. In fact in the position i see most people using a baitcaster it's actually only half as strong as the same grip in a spin setup. With the line above the rod more twisting force is placed on the rod which adds stability problems for the angler compared to the hammer grip on spin with the line under the rod. I'll show you when we catchup next and you will see your own bodies limitations and lack of stability and co-ordination in a particular position.
A real smart guy in this area is Plasticin on here (Scotty), but the answers will be long and complex so best left for face to face demo's etc. He has actual tests completed proving lack of strength in positions.
Too complex to explain in words when the average person on the net won't read 2 pages let alone 2 paragraphs mate, visuals are needed here but many didn't register the foot position let alone hand position and body so this might best be left for face to face etc.
Cast double handed then and see how much extra control and strength you get.
I'm still amazed how a double handed backhand feels compared to a single and i don't play a lot of tennis. One handed golf swings compared to double handed swings offer a lot more control etc. Thanks for your thoughts and debate.
Cheers Lyndon.
:-X Cant argue with you Lyndon on the hammer grip when retrieving & striking .
I do change hands at the completion of my cast ( natural left hander who swings right handed)::)
My retrieving / striking grip consists of the thumb on top of the reel & the pistol grip trigger between the 3rd & 4th finger - - Its a much stronger position than a standard hammer grip.
All good stuff
Chris
I like my bait casters.
& I like your baitcasters too :P
chris
wheezer
06-07-2009, 11:26 AM
important to hold a baitcaster correctly ie palming as nagg describes. reason companies spend so much time developing shapes and contours of reels is for palming comfort. i remember as a little'un trying to palm my very first BC, the trusty ole abu 6500, difficult at best. todays new age of low pros invite you to securely and comfortably palm them, allowing for an incredibly stable and secure grip of the rod/reel.
too many fisho's i see holding a BC by the rear grip ie casting position while fishing. trying to put pressure on a rampaging barra is far more tiring on the angler, not to mention long casting sessions supporting the weight of the reel out in front of the hand
aussiebasser
06-07-2009, 12:44 PM
Both have their place. An angler can generally achieve a greater distance with a threadline. As for accuracy, both can be mastered. If you ever saw one of Harro's casting demos you'd see that he had complete control over both. The ultimate casting tool for accuracy over a short distance is still a fly rod.
Plasticin
06-07-2009, 02:31 PM
:-X Cant argue with you Lyndon on the hammer grip when retrieving & striking .
I do change hands at the completion of my cast ( natural left hander who swings right handed)::)
My retrieving / striking grip consists of the thumb on top of the reel & the pistol grip trigger between the 3rd & 4th finger - - Its a much stronger position than a standard hammer grip.
All good stuff
Chris
I’m not 100% sure as too what you are trying to say mate so I won’t comment however the position of the wrist is what the “hammer grip” is all about not the position of the fingers. As Lyndon has alluded to the "hammer" grip (thumb facing the sky for those that haven't been in the lifting game) is the strongest anatomical position. Its kind of hard to explain why it’s the strongest position without going into too much detail here but basically the muscles that cross the elbow and influence the position of the wrist(palm facing up or down) and hence grip strength are at their strongest when the thumb is facing the sky.
Lyndon has the run’s on the board although he probably won’t tell you but he has done extensive strength work with some of Australian’s top professional athletes. He will be the first to tell you that sport is all about adjusting the athletes body to allow for the strongest position to be attained. Why not adopt this into your fishing practices? I can tell you now that I have never fished with someone who hits a fish as successfully and hard as what Lyndon does. Just ask the fish in Manton Dam (Darwin) on Friday. It is a rare occasion that a fish throws the hook with Lyndon fighting them.
Getting back to spin v b/c another complex to understand is the optimum length tension relationship between muscles. The wrist flexors, which also contribute to finger flexion are at their strongest between 15 and 30 degrees of wrist extension. Sound complex? Well its not really grab a tennis racquet or screwdriver and squeeze it as hard as you can. Notice how your bodies first instinct is to extend your wrist. Have a look at your elbow position as well and think about how we can apply these settings to fishing. I know that a baitcaster does not allow this position in fact we are in the opposite, wrist flexion. Our body innately knows our strongest positions and tries to replicate them in all situations, why don’t we let it?
So what does all this result in when fishing with a b/c?
A b/c shortens the position of the wrist flexors and in turn decreases your grip strength making it the weakest link in the chain, not something you want. Don’t’ believe me? Everyone who has muscled up on a decent fish knows that the first part to fatigue is in your forearm. How bout next time you turn the b/c so that the handle faces the floor and you are fighting the fish with the guides on the side of the rod? Have a look at your wrist position now? Spin stick? Try working your lures like this, I guarantee that hopping larger plastics is exponentially easier in this position.
Now that times are changing and we recognise that it is not necessary all the time to muscle fish why do we need to adapt the “strongest approach”. Basically using the strongest position will help prevent muscle soreness, soft tissue injuries (overuse) and I believe, most importantly, allow you to work your lure with the most control over the long days that we all fish. Stronger and more dexterous wrist positions will also let us have more control over the rod hence further contributing to working our lures more effectively.
On another topic some interesting research has come out regarding the use of dominant and non-dominant sides in relation to control and fine motor activities. This will influence which rod we should have our hand in. But that is another topic for another time.
Not trying to "big wig" myself though it may sound like it, but in depth discussion with Lyndon regarding this stuff shows up some real common misconceptions regarding the "strongest" way to fight fish. The worst thing is that the current fishing media seems to think that they know what is best even though they have zero idea about what they are talking about. Sorry it’s a sore point. If we can use the bodies anatomical quirks to our advantage then we can help to stop sore arms/shoulders, work lures the way we want to for longer and hopefully contribute to more enjoyable trips in the future. Happy to explain it round a campfire one time but you bring the beers.
Scott
Both have their place. An angler can generally achieve a greater distance with a threadline. As for accuracy, both can be mastered. If you ever saw one of Harro's casting demos you'd see that he had complete control over both. The ultimate casting tool for accuracy over a short distance is still a fly rod.
Before I commented here , I just went down the local park armed with my barra threadline outfit & favourite barra baitcast outfit...... same leader length, line & 5" Tango dancer (hooks removed)
Interestingly ..... I pretty well nailed my first cast with the spin rod (46 M) ..... but never improved on the distance averaging between 44-46M over 20 casts
With the baitcast outfit ..... first few casts were around the 42-43M mark .... However this distance increased to 53M (Av 50-52M)
now ... all this proves is that I can throw a baitcaster further than a threadline :)
However I wonder if the notion of barra spin gear outperforming baitcast gear is just a misconception ( with the exception of very light presentations) .
I'll be interested if others found the same
Chris
I’m not 100% sure as too what you are trying to say mate so I won’t comment however the position of the wrist is what the “hammer grip” is all about not the position of the fingers. As Lyndon has alluded to the "hammer" grip (thumb facing the sky for those that haven't been in the lifting game) is the strongest anatomical position. Its kind of hard to explain why it’s the strongest position without going into too much detail here but basically the muscles that cross the elbow and influence the position of the wrist(palm facing up or down) and hence grip strength are at their strongest when the thumb is facing the sky.
Lyndon has the run’s on the board although he probably won’t tell you but he has done extensive strength work with some of Australian’s top professional athletes. He will be the first to tell you that sport is all about adjusting the athletes body to allow for the strongest position to be attained. Why not adopt this into your fishing practices? I can tell you now that I have never fished with someone who hits a fish as successfully and hard as what Lyndon does. Just ask the fish in Manton Dam (Darwin) on Friday. It is a rare occasion that a fish throws the hook with Lyndon fighting them.
Getting back to spin v b/c another complex to understand is the optimum length tension relationship between muscles. The wrist flexors, which also contribute to finger flexion are at their strongest between 15 and 30 degrees of wrist extension. Sound complex? Well its not really grab a tennis racquet or screwdriver and squeeze it as hard as you can. Notice how your bodies first instinct is to extend your wrist. Have a look at your elbow position as well and think about how we can apply these settings to fishing. I know that a baitcaster does not allow this position in fact we are in the opposite, wrist flexion. Our body innately knows our strongest positions and tries to replicate them in all situations, why don’t we let it?
So what does all this result in when fishing with a b/c?
A b/c shortens the position of the wrist flexors and in turn decreases your grip strength making it the weakest link in the chain, not something you want. Don’t’ believe me? Everyone who has muscled up on a decent fish knows that the first part to fatigue is in your forearm. How bout next time you turn the b/c so that the handle faces the floor and you are fighting the fish with the guides on the side of the rod? Have a look at your wrist position now? Spin stick? Try working your lures like this, I guarantee that hopping larger plastics is exponentially easier in this position.
Now that times are changing and we recognise that it is not necessary all the time to muscle fish why do we need to adapt the “strongest approach”. Basically using the strongest position will help prevent muscle soreness, soft tissue injuries (overuse) and I believe, most importantly, allow you to work your lure with the most control over the long days that we all fish. Stronger and more dexterous wrist positions will also let us have more control over the rod hence further contributing to working our lures more effectively.
On another topic some interesting research has come out regarding the use of dominant and non-dominant sides in relation to control and fine motor activities. This will influence which rod we should have our hand in. But that is another topic for another time.
Not trying to "big wig" myself though it may sound like it, but in depth discussion with Lyndon regarding this stuff shows up some real common misconceptions regarding the "strongest" way to fight fish. The worst thing is that the current fishing media seems to think that they know what is best even though they have zero idea about what they are talking about. Sorry it’s a sore point. If we can use the bodies anatomical quirks to our advantage then we can help to stop sore arms/shoulders, work lures the way we want to for longer and hopefully contribute to more enjoyable trips in the future. Happy to explain it round a campfire one time but you bring the beers.
Scott
Scott ..... I would love to see it put into practice & see what difference it really makes.
I certainly can see the advantages in other forms of fishing ... ie Jigging in particular & its why threadline reels are quickly proving the tackle of choice.
Unfortunately ..... I'm yet to be fatigued from catching barra ;)
Chris
HI Nagg, I have taken numerous people out that have asked to be taken home as they couldn't possibly pull in another barra as they were worn out. This is rare though, more often they are worn out from too much casting with very little reward. I personally haven't reached a point where I was too worn out to pull in another barra, I find the adrenalin keeps me going, but as soon as the barra stop biting then the fatigue sets in fast.
Hello Lyndon, I wouldn't mind being pointed in the right direction next time you're up. My casting action just relies on muscling lures out as far as possible, results in a sore back and more nurofen consumed.
cheers scott.
wheezer
06-07-2009, 07:30 PM
regarding your casting comparo's chris that does not suprise me. with threadlines you are always fighting the friction generated by the spiralling line contacting the guides. a baitcaster with a good cast control correctly tuned should outperform spin in terms of distance with the kind of lure weights used for barra
i find my grip when palming a BC is basically identical to when i'm holding my spin outfit
regarding your casting comparo's chris that does not suprise me. with threadlines you are always fighting the friction generated by the spiralling line contacting the guides. a baitcaster with a good cast control correctly tuned should outperform spin in terms of distance with the kind of lure weights used for barra
i find my grip when palming a BC is basically identical to when i'm holding my spin outfit
Thats what I felt Andrew..... but wanted to prove it to myself , throwing a typical barra sized lure ( be it a quite aerodynamic one) under the same conditions. Both outfits were suited to casting the chosen lure too ..... so it was not a case of favouring one over the other.
In the end ...... I do see a place for spin gear in barra fishing ..... but in my case , it will remain a novelty for specialised situations - rather than mainstream tackle.
Chris
Plasticin
06-07-2009, 10:25 PM
Scott ..... I would love to see it put into practice & see what difference it really makes.
I certainly can see the advantages in other forms of fishing ... ie Jigging in particular & its why threadline reels are quickly proving the tackle of choice.
Unfortunately ..... I'm yet to be fatigued from catching barra ;)
Chris
Chris I think you have missed the point mate.
Re reading it I apologise if it seems that I have tried to "show off" was not my intention at all, its just something that Lyndon and I have put a lot of thought into and thought it may help.
A passionate subject is something easy to talk about.::) ::) ::)
Dick Pasfield
06-07-2009, 10:49 PM
A passionate subject is something easy to talk about.http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gif http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gif http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/rolleyes.gif
An excellent post Scott. I think you'll find there was a quite a few that gobbled that info up then went straight to their rods and tested your words out.
Not showing off, just showing is the way see it8-)
Jeremy87
06-07-2009, 10:56 PM
I am comfortable using both. You will normally hear me harping on about spin tackle but that is more for bass. For impoundment barra i do generally use bc tackle. I do however preffer spin casting tackle in situations where i want to lay into a cast and not have to worry about birds nests.
wheezer
07-07-2009, 08:06 AM
I do however preffer spin casting tackle in situations where i want to lay into a cast and not have to worry about birds nests.
everyone has their preferencces, a correctly tuned baitcaster should see very little birdsnest trouble. i prefer to use BC when night fishing as with spin the dreaded wind knot can rear its ugly head, hard to notice in the dark sometimes unless its a biggun
Chris I think you have missed the point mate.
Re reading it I apologise if it seems that I have tried to "show off" was not my intention at all, its just something that Lyndon and I have put a lot of thought into and thought it may help.
A passionate subject is something easy to talk about.::) ::) ::)
I'm a simple person ::)
but I do see where you are coming from with regard to bio mechanics. ..... certainly with regard to striking ...
But how much of an improvement will you gain when compared with someone who employs good technique with baitcast gear - (For barra) Where you have a fish that is running & jumping ..... running amok around the timber. I certainly think the baitcaster wins in this situation ..... particularly in the ability to quickly freespool without loosing pressure - plus the added manoeuvrability of the BC outfit in tight situations.
Nothing wrong with being passionate in what you believe in ...... I certainly look forward to seeing your ideas first hand
Chris
SeekingBarradise
07-07-2009, 11:03 AM
Before I commented here , I just went down the local park armed with my barra threadline outfit & favourite barra baitcast outfit...... same leader length, line & 5" Tango dancer (hooks removed)
Interestingly ..... I pretty well nailed my first cast with the spin rod (46 M) ..... but never improved on the distance averaging between 44-46M over 20 casts
With the baitcast outfit ..... first few casts were around the 42-43M mark .... However this distance increased to 53M (Av 50-52M)
now ... all this proves is that I can throw a baitcaster further than a threadline :)
However I wonder if the notion of barra spin gear outperforming baitcast gear is just a misconception ( with the exception of very light presentations) .
I'll be interested if others found the same
Chris
Yes this might just prove what i said in my first thread. You have tinkered a lot with your bc rod and reel setup over the years for barra but not nearly as much for spin with the ideal rod and reel setup. The cast length look good so you should be happy Chris:) so you must have a pretty good bc setup. I noticed Locky at Awoonga casting miles with those REVO's i was even surprised crikey!
Deeper into the equation
Scenario: Have you ever noticed a few guys on here hook a lot of fish with 3 trebbles hanging off lures but they always seem to miss more than 4 fish in a session after a few seconds or after the fish takes a couple of runs. No leader breakdowns or failed knots just missed fish. You have watched them fish and so have i. Did you notice a couple of areas they could improve in? Everyone can improve, especially me.
Before i go any further i can improve in a stack of areas and that's tinkering which is great fun in a hobby/sport called Barra Fishn. It's about the best sport you can get.:) I'm no guru, just adding my bit to try and help if that's ok.
The net: It depends on what everyone is on here for. If it's a chat and not much in the way of learning then lost fish don't matter i guess, although on 800-1000km round trips they would hurt a bit. Whatever you are on here for is cool.
Learning
If people are on here to learn then the serial missed fish guys must have missed Johnny Mitchells/Harro's rod and reel advice which was printed most years dating back over 1000 days now (Harro's decades ago). Good info hopefully not skipped for the next best soft plastic.
Then there was the foot and body position and hand and rod position then JM's rod and reel setup and the list goes on. In my opinion this is exactly the area a hell of a lot of us need to improve in, myself included, i'm still tinkering there. Chris must have listened as his results last year were good, and he is on a roll this year as well.
Good Thread: Chris your topic branches in to the others above so i don't think i'm off track here. Better setups will hopefully help us catch more fish in certain situations. Enter spin in to the equation. Like Dale said they both have their day and Harro is a master of both, let alone fly casting better than most throw spin gear. Dick fishes wild territory and uses both in different situations etc.
Basics
It's the base level mistakes before a cast is even made that in my opinion lead to huge problems by the time we get to reacting to fish strikes. Most equations stop there without the fish being landed, that's it don't pass go and don't collect $200 but collect your free No Fish Lure pack. We have all been there.
The point of this thread is to help that's all, as i've had mates on here help me in lots of areas i've needed to improve (still working on lots). To help a mate out if you were beside me on a boat i'd hate to see anyone pushing sht up hill with poor positions, setups which results in lost fish every trip, i'd hate to see that. What i'd say is " Mate have you ever tinkered with this position, technique, give it a go and see what you think?"
"Then give it a go on every trip to get used to it and do a full trial as it might just help you strike, hook and land more fish". Especially for those of us that don't fish like Mitchell, Harro and the Taylors so we need all the help we can give each other. After all isn't that the Aussie way.:)
Cheers Lyndon.:D
Toddy_again
07-07-2009, 12:53 PM
OK then....I would also love to know what people are using out there as far as spin rods go for barra?Also what people think makes a good barra spin rod?
I bet we cant go the whole thread without saying the Sword.;D
Toddy
Good work Lyndon ...... you picked up on this being a baited thread :shifty:
I 'm really interested in the current trend to move away from baitcasters & over to spin gear .......... particularly that there is not a lot of spin rods available that are designed for barra ( most are long snapper rods that have been adapted to the role) ....... which is OK for frogs or rolling slick rigs etc - but they are usually much too tippy for say twitching HBs ( tips fold away too much for my liking ...... & must affect a hook set) This makes a good topic on its own8-) .... What is an ideal spin set up ??????
So how many are making the change under the notion that it is easier to use threadline gear - without considering the downside :-/
I have put a fair effort into coming up with my ideal BC set up ( a progression that has taken 3 years) ..... now I have an outfit that is light ,comfortable, casts well & can handle a wide spread of lure weights with relative ease) - Very happy .
You are right Lyndon ...... Technique is important ( so where do people go wrong ?)
Chris
Peter4
07-07-2009, 02:39 PM
Do you want some input from a barra fisho (& son) who's arsenals comprises only of spin gear??
Pete
Do you want some input from a barra fisho (& son) who's arsenals comprises only of spin gear??
Pete
Git typin Pete ..... love to hear more
Chris
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
07-07-2009, 03:19 PM
Nagg says-
Well , I'm still not convinced. http://www.ausfish.com.au/yabbfiles/Smilies/bulb.gif
I keep hearing about all the advantages offered over baitcast gear ........ But I'm yet to really see / experience them - & certainly not enough to make me put down my favourite baitcasters.
Give it time Nagg, you can't expect to experience everything in the barra scene in your short time frame. Lots of people go the full circle with their thoughts, on many subjects. Experience teaches them new things, minds get changed, and the discussion goes round and round.
Light lures, windy lakes, varied cast angles, mixed angler skill, and balanced outfits will see many lighter lures cast further with less effort on spin gear. Try casting an ultra light lure into a 25 knotter on Awoonga with your bait caster. Small metal slugs get cast at tuna schools with spin outfits for max distance and speed. You don't see small baitcasters doing that job,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,line retrieval rate is greater on a suitable spin outfit for staying in contact with a fast paced barra; an area where tight lines win points. A baitcaster won't keep up. Spool diameter, handle size, ease of winding, and gearing sees that one an as an obvious advantage to the spin fisher. There are numerous advantages of spin over baitcast in lakes for barra, and vice versa of course for other fishing situations. Maximum cast distance on my boat is gained via spin tackle.
Each angler has preferences. A skilled angler will use an alvey to catch the same fish, without fuss on what is best or apparently better. An alvey angler may even wonder what the fuss talk is all about about baitcasters.
In my experience, finely tuned spin tackle in a lake is like the icing on the cake.
Cheers,
Johnny Mitchell
Peter4
07-07-2009, 04:02 PM
Git typin Pete ..... love to hear more
Firstly let me say that I have not had much experience with baitcasters. My fishing life of over 40 years has always been around spin gear so, when I started chasing barra three years ago, I naturally looked at my spin options.
Secondly I am not as technically anal as you, Scott, Lyndon (no offence guys!) and many others.:) I go out to fish to enjoy myself and, as long as the gear is of good quality and works reasonably well, I am happy and any fish caught is a bonus!
After a few trials and tribulations I have now settled on three barra outfits.
They are:
1. 7' Egrell S10, Hyper Custom Certate 3000 spooled with 50lb castaway PE
2. 6'6" Berkley Dropshot, Shimano Saros 4000 with 30lb Tufline
3. 6' Berkley Dropshot, Penn Applause 4000 with 30lb Tufline
The weak link here is the Penn Applause reel which is on it's last legs and about to be replaced by a 3000 size Daiwa. Too many barra have destroyed this loyal but cheap friend...I agree though that a 3000 size reel is well suited to catching barra.
I use the Egrell mostly for throwing heavy plastics, surface popping and burning frogs. The dropshots are used to twitch hardbodies - usually the longer rod on points and weed edges and the short rod in amongst the timber.
All outfits have caught barra and all have handled them well - even when free spooling is required by throwing over the bail arm. Whether slow rolling plastics or twitching lures I am comfortable in using this gear all day.
Never worried too much about my stance or body position but accept that I will sometimes lose fish due to poor technique. So what? I love being on the water with my best mate (my son Kyle) and if we only get one fish between us on a trip, we are happy. While I love catching barra, I also get a buzz by being dusted by a big girl and I'm not too bothered by the ones I miss (unless I do something stupid - which I have!). This is why we keep coming back!
Like all anglers starting out we began with cheaper and perhaps inferior gear and have educated and updated our stuff over time. Kyle's favourite combo is now a 6'6" Berkley Dropshot matched with a Daiwa Heartland XA 3000.
Why no baitcasters? Simple, no-one has ever shown us how to use one! Seems like a hell of a lot of hard work and constant practice and I am far too lazy for that! I do own an Pfleuger Echelon on a Backbone Elite but this has ended up being a trolling rod for big flathead at the 'Pin.
Maybe you can have a go at coverting us at the Mondy Muster in Sept!;) ;D
Regs
Pete & Kyle
Nagg says-
Well , I'm still not convinced. http://www.ausfish.com.au/yabbfiles/Smilies/bulb.gif
I keep hearing about all the advantages offered over baitcast gear ........ But I'm yet to really see / experience them - & certainly not enough to make me put down my favourite baitcasters.
Give it time Nagg, you can't expect to experience everything in the barra scene in your short time frame. Lots of people go the full circle with their thoughts, on many subjects. Experience teaches them new things, minds get changed, and the discussion goes round and round.
Light lures, windy lakes, varied cast angles, mixed angler skill, and balanced outfits will see many lighter lures cast further with less effort on spin gear. Try casting an ultra light lure into a 25 knotter on Awoonga with your bait caster. Small metal slugs get cast at tuna schools with spin outfits for max distance and speed. You don't see small baitcasters doing that job,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,line retrieval rate is greater on a suitable spin outfit for staying in contact with a fast paced barra; an area where tight lines win points. A baitcaster won't keep up. Spool diameter, handle size, ease of winding, and gearing sees that one an as an obvious advantage to the spin fisher. There are numerous advantages of spin over baitcast in lakes for barra, and vice versa of course for other fishing situations. Maximum cast distance on my boat is gained via spin tackle.
Each angler has preferences. A skilled angler will use an alvey to catch the same fish, without fuss on what is best or apparently better. An alvey angler may even wonder what the fuss talk is all about about baitcasters.
In my experience, finely tuned spin tackle in a lake is like the icing on the cake.
Cheers,
Johnny Mitchell
Hi Johnny
Sticking to barra applications
You cited many of the reasons why I added a spin outfit to my barra arsenal - particularly lighter presentations & wind affected situations.
No doubt .... the speed advantage could be useful under certain situations.
But for me ........ still no revelation ( wow I've seen the light - I'm switching to threadline moment) ...... :lost: for each of the benefits gained were often counteracted by a negative .
Chris
PS .... You talk of a highly tuned spin outfit ..... if you wouldn't mind , could you please explain such an outfit .......
Firstly let me say that I have not had much experience with baitcasters. My fishing life of over 40 years has always been around spin gear so, when I started chasing barra three years ago, I naturally looked at my spin options.
Secondly I am not as technically anal as you, Scott, Lyndon (no offence guys!) and many others.:) I go out to fish to enjoy myself and, as long as the gear is of good quality and works reasonably well, I am happy and any fish caught is a bonus!
After a few trials and tribulations I have now settled on three barra outfits.
They are:
1. 7' Egrell S10, Hyper Custom Certate 3000 spooled with 50lb castaway PE
2. 6'6" Berkley Dropshot, Shimano Saros 4000 with 30lb Tufline
3. 6' Berkley Dropshot, Penn Applause 4000 with 30lb Tufline
The weak link here is the Penn Applause reel which is on it's last legs and about to be replaced by a 3000 size Daiwa. Too many barra have destroyed this loyal but cheap friend...I agree though that a 3000 size reel is well suited to catching barra.
I use the Egrell mostly for throwing heavy plastics, surface popping and burning frogs. The dropshots are used to twitch hardbodies - usually the longer rod on points and weed edges and the short rod in amongst the timber.
All outfits have caught barra and all have handled them well - even when free spooling is required by throwing over the bail arm. Whether slow rolling plastics or twitching lures I am comfortable in using this gear all day.
Never worried too much about my stance or body position but accept that I will sometimes lose fish due to poor technique. So what? I love being on the water with my best mate (my son Kyle) and if we only get one fish between us on a trip, we are happy. While I love catching barra, I also get a buzz by being dusted by a big girl and I'm not too bothered by the ones I miss (unless I do something stupid - which I have!). This is why we keep coming back!
Like all anglers starting out we began with cheaper and perhaps inferior gear and have educated and updated our stuff over time. Kyle's favourite combo is now a 6'6" Berkley Dropshot matched with a Daiwa Heartland XA 3000.
Why no baitcasters? Simple, no-one has ever shown us how to use one! Seems like a hell of a lot of hard work and constant practice and I am far too lazy for that! I do own an Pfleuger Echelon on a Backbone Elite but this has ended up being a trolling rod for big flathead at the 'Pin.
Maybe you can have a go at coverting us at the Mondy Muster in Sept!;) ;D
Regs
Pete & Kyle
Thanks Pete
I wouldn't even try to convince you to change ......
I wouldn't even suggest that you need to learn how to use a baitcaster...... & I'm not here to say that anyone is wrong ...... or is there any notion of elitism , snobbery etc
I'm coming from a position of starting my barra fishing with baitcasters - developing my outfits to a point of satisfaction ......... Then adding spin gear into the equation to fill a void that was evident.
10 months down the line .... I'm still "oh hum" about the barra threadline gear I own & what I have used ...... sure ...It has its place - Usually in the rod locker;)
Chris
Peter4
07-07-2009, 04:53 PM
Each to their own, mate, each to their own.....
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
07-07-2009, 06:24 PM
Nagg,
A finely tuned spin outfit = An outfit where the reel's size matches the rod length and weight, along with the spool diameter matching the size and spacings of the guides. A careful selection of line diameter, weight and make/composition of the line that allows a smooth and fluent travel through the guides is an important mix, so too is a reel that is filled to the right height that allows the least possible friction on the spool lip when casting takes place. A rod that has a rear grip of reasonable length that allows an angler to impart energy from body to lure is essential to help attain maximun distances. A reel with fair gearing that when matched with spool size allows an angler to stay in touch with a fast fish that tracks towards an angler. (almost an everyday occurrence).
Also, A rod composition matched with correct line choice, mixed with a reel ratio that as a combined unit helps to amplify lure and line vibration to improve results is what I would call a finely tuned spin outfit.
There are some pretty poorly meshed outfits getting around that couldn't cast across a street, let alone allow for finesse, amplification, or accuracy to be attained.
Cheers,
Johnny Mitchell
Nagg,
A finely tuned spin outfit = An outfit where the reel's size matches the rod length and weight, along with the spool diameter matching the size and spacings of the guides. A careful selection of line diameter, weight and make/composition of the line that allows a smooth and fluent travel through the guides is an important mix, so too is a reel that is filled to the right height that allows the least possible friction on the spool lip when casting takes place. A rod that has a rear grip of reasonable length that allows an angler to impart energy from body to lure is essential to help attain maximun distances. A reel with fair gearing that when matched with spool size allows an angler to stay in touch with a fast fish that tracks towards an angler. (almost an everyday occurrence).
Also, A rod composition matched with correct line choice, mixed with a reel ratio that as a combined unit helps to amplify lure and line vibration to improve results is what I would call a finely tuned spin outfit.
There are some pretty poorly meshed outfits getting around that couldn't cast across a street, let alone allow for finesse, amplification, or accuracy to be attained.
Cheers,
Johnny Mitchell
yup, that about sums up the definition of a balanced/tuned outfit :o
Nagg,
A finely tuned spin outfit = An outfit where the reel's size matches the rod length and weight, along with the spool diameter matching the size and spacings of the guides. A careful selection of line diameter, weight and make/composition of the line that allows a smooth and fluent travel through the guides is an important mix, so too is a reel that is filled to the right height that allows the least possible friction on the spool lip when casting takes place. A rod that has a rear grip of reasonable length that allows an angler to impart energy from body to lure is essential to help attain maximun distances. A reel with fair gearing that when matched with spool size allows an angler to stay in touch with a fast fish that tracks towards an angler. (almost an everyday occurrence).
Also, A rod composition matched with correct line choice, mixed with a reel ratio that as a combined unit helps to amplify lure and line vibration to improve results is what I would call a finely tuned spin outfit.
There are some pretty poorly meshed outfits getting around that couldn't cast across a street, let alone allow for finesse, amplification, or accuracy to be attained.
Cheers,
Johnny Mitchell
Thanks Johnny
Can you quote an example ?
Chris
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
07-07-2009, 06:49 PM
Yea, home turned rods to suit the individual's body design, and reel choice.
Yea, home turned rods to suit the individual's body design, and reel choice.
Now , how many people have rods designed & built to their own body design , casting style , reel of choice , line diameter , lure weight etc etc etc - very few I would imagine (unless they build their own sticks) .
I actually doubt if many would completely understand the concept of what makes a well designed spin rod.,,,,, let alone - if starting from a scratch ( choosing a blank).
Chris
darylive
07-07-2009, 07:09 PM
Hi Andrew ...... Like you I now carry a spin stick , though I have tried 4 (light to heavy matched with either a Daiwa Caldia 2500 or Certate 3000 .... settled in the middle) & I'm still not really happy .
So its just not a case of perception either ....... I feel much more connected to the baitcast outfit ( particularly low profiles)
So the spin outfit usually just ends up with a lightly weighted frog on it & is cast when the situation arises
Chris
And the problem is?
:-X Cant argue with you Lyndon on the hammer grip when retrieving & striking .
I do change hands at the completion of my cast ( natural left hander who swings right handed)::)
My retrieving / striking grip consists of the thumb on top of the reel & the pistol grip trigger between the 3rd & 4th finger - - Its a much stronger position than a standard hammer grip.
All good stuff
Chris
Only left handers are in their right mind you know ::)
Both have their place. An angler can generally achieve a greater distance with a threadline. As for accuracy, both can be mastered. If you ever saw one of Harro's casting demos you'd see that he had complete control over both. The ultimate casting tool for accuracy over a short distance is still a fly rod.
Fly? Yes Harro is a freak, a wizard when casting. A rod in Harro's hands is a wand.
Scott ..... I would love to see it put into practice & see what difference it really makes.
I certainly can see the advantages in other forms of fishing ... ie Jigging in particular & its why threadline reels are quickly proving the tackle of choice.
Unfortunately ..... I'm yet to be fatigued from catching barra ;)
Chris
A great thread and a great approach to the debate gents in fact I don't think it is a debate but interactive discussion among those keen to share and learn. All good. And a lot of stuff that most of us don't think about but possible makes sense if we were to. A friendly joust perhaps ;D with jousting sticks in hand.
I am off for my Pizza and Red wine but will be back!
Jousting sticks .. What does he want for 'em? 8-)
Ahhh .... Its all good Daryl
No jousting - just sharing of experiences & ideas
lots to learn , places to go & barra to catch
Chris
Dick Pasfield
07-07-2009, 07:51 PM
10 months down the line .... I'm still "oh hum" about the barra threadline gear I own & what I have used ...... sure ...It has its place - Usually in the rod lockerhttp://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gif
Just a suggestion, necessity being the mother of invention and innovation leave the baitcasters at home and use only your spin stick for your next trip out. It may be that all you need is to spend some time with it in your hand rather than in the locker. Not saying either is better overall or trying to convert but it may help to answer your own questions in the best way possible:)
Either way it'll add to the challenge of your next trip.
wheezer
07-07-2009, 08:01 PM
I actually doubt if many would completely understand the concept of what makes a well designed spin rod.,,,,, let alone - if starting from a scratch ( choosing a blank).
Chris
that's where custom rod builders such as myself come in ;D
darylive
07-07-2009, 08:02 PM
Nagg,
A finely tuned spin outfit = An outfit where the reel's size matches the rod length and weight, along with the spool diameter matching the size and spacings of the guides. A careful selection of line diameter, weight and make/composition of the line that allows a smooth and fluent travel through the guides is an important mix, so too is a reel that is filled to the right height that allows the least possible friction on the spool lip when casting takes place. A rod that has a rear grip of reasonable length that allows an angler to impart energy from body to lure is essential to help attain maximun distances. A reel with fair gearing that when matched with spool size allows an angler to stay in touch with a fast fish that tracks towards an angler. (almost an everyday occurrence).
Also, A rod composition matched with correct line choice, mixed with a reel ratio that as a combined unit helps to amplify lure and line vibration to improve results is what I would call a finely tuned spin outfit.
There are some pretty poorly meshed outfits getting around that couldn't cast across a street, let alone allow for finesse, amplification, or accuracy to be attained.
Cheers,
Johnny Mitchell
Well said Johnny, now what will we pay for this perfect outfit?
Never mind the fashion.
Seriously what is a realistic cost.
Regards Daryl
Steve B
07-07-2009, 08:20 PM
Finally got around to reading this thread. great thread Chris.
Being a predominantly Monduran angler, I have always stuck with the baitcaster, tuned to suit the way I fish....I have had no trouble casting as far as any of the 3 or 4 basic spin setups that have been through and not mastered or enjoyed. WIth that, they would be put back in the rack and not brought out until I would go bait soaking in the salt.....or casting for tuna.....Which got me thinking....these rods are for salt water styles, either jigging, baitfishing or casting chrome slugs.
(the following is not an add!!..seriously)
The next bit refers to getting quality rod and outfit no matter what brand it is, and as Johnny said, having it balanced appropriately....then actually concentrating on LEARNING how to use it properly, as Lyndon and Scott explained. This is my story.
I forget that when it comes to spin for barra...I am a total NEWBIE....I have to start at basics which is a total culture (and ego) shock for me;)
I spoke with Eric Grell, and told him, 'I just cant use a spin for barra'..... When it comes to bass, thats all I use and I love them...why cant I master the heavier versions??
I played with a few Egrells and worked out the particular rod that felt right with the majority of the range of lures that I wanted to cast.....I REALLY do want to get keen on spin...I know the benefits in retrieves, strikes etc etc that spin provides from years of bass. I mean, many of the anglers that I look up to have mastered spin, and really produce the goods to back up their claims, aims, and techniques.
back on the water, After about 10 casts, I was casting further and more comfortable than previously...wow this aint to bad....Eric explained a few more things regarding energy and the deliverance of energy though the fishing rod to improve casting......Too hard to explain....but in a nutshell, if you have ever swung a golf stick, hit a cricket ball, or served a tennis ball, rythmn and timing is everything,.....the old saying 'big swing...no ding' applys to casting too. This is my basic fundamental which I put into practice now with fishing more consiously....Johnny, Lyndon and Scott can no doubt add 20x the physics to what I have basically explained.
Essentially I am hooked on spin now BECAUSE I HAVE THE RIGHT GEAR, AND WENT BACK TO BASICS...only thing is improvement from here I see. I am being more 'selective' as to instances for long casting spin.....essentially a place like monduran requires constant back and forth changes depending on structure and areas worked, where as Awoonga, to me, has an higher benefit to spin with open points bays and a s$%t load more wind;)!!
Now, my last piece (slighty off the topic) goes with losing fish for me lately....I am going to go against the latest concepts getting a round suggesting 'strike and strike hard'.....I have reprogramed myself to do this in the last year, and found I am failing big time....I will no longer strike a HB lure, or one with trebbles. I will let the fish weight do the work on plastics, with only minimal rod pressure......Like I used to do successfully......WHY?? firstly because it worked, secondly....well, anatomy and pysiology of the fish will explain the rest.
Once again, great topic chris, and great info from everyone.
Cheers Steve
Just a suggestion, necessity being the mother of invention and innovation leave the baitcasters at home and use only your spin stick for your next trip out. It may be that all you need is to spend some time with it in your hand rather than in the locker. Not saying either is better overall or trying to convert but it may help to answer your own questions in the best way possible:)
Either way it'll add to the challenge of your next trip.
Been there .... almost ( certainly over a couple of day) ........ Replaced that rod with another spin rod ::) ....... much better suited to kingfish than barra
Chris
that's where custom rod builders such as myself come in ;D
Yeh Andrew .... but you guys just currupt the clients & just build what you think is required ;)
Not you personally Andrew :)
Back in my dark past ...... I built quite a few of my own rods (MW still uses a couple - silly boy )
Chris
Finally got around to reading this thread. great thread Chris.
Being a predominantly Monduran angler, I have always stuck with the baitcaster, tuned to suit the way I fish....I have had no trouble casting as far as any of the 3 or 4 basic spin setups that have been through and not mastered or enjoyed. WIth that, they would be put back in the rack and not brought out until I would go bait soaking in the salt.....or casting for tuna.....Which got me thinking....these rods are for salt water styles, either jigging, baitfishing or casting chrome slugs.
(the following is not an add!!..seriously)
The next bit refers to getting quality rod and outfit no matter what brand it is, and as Johnny said, having it balanced appropriately....then actually concentrating on LEARNING how to use it properly, as Lyndon and Scott explained. This is my story.
I forget that when it comes to spin for barra...I am a total NEWBIE....I have to start at basics which is a total culture (and ego) shock for me;)
I spoke with Eric Grell, and told him, 'I just cant use a spin for barra'..... When it comes to bass, thats all I use and I love them...why cant I master the heavier versions??
I played with a few Egrells and worked out the particular rod that felt right with the majority of the range of lures that I wanted to cast.....I REALLY do want to get keen on spin...I know the benefits in retrieves, strikes etc etc that spin provides from years of bass. I mean, many of the anglers that I look up to have mastered spin, and really produce the goods to back up their claims, aims, and techniques.
back on the water, After about 10 casts, I was casting further and more comfortable than previously...wow this aint to bad....Eric explained a few more things regarding energy and the deliverance of energy though the fishing rod to improve casting......Too hard to explain....but in a nutshell, if you have ever swung a golf stick, hit a cricket ball, or served a tennis ball, rythmn and timing is everything,.....the old saying 'big swing...no ding' applys to casting too. This is my basic fundamental which I put into practice now with fishing more consiously....Johnny, Lyndon and Scott can no doubt add 20x the physics to what I have basically explained.
Essentially I am hooked on spin now BECAUSE I HAVE THE RIGHT GEAR, AND WENT BACK TO BASICS...only thing is improvement from here I see. I am being more 'selective' as to instances for long casting spin.....essentially a place like monduran requires constant back and forth changes depending on structure and areas worked, where as Awoonga, to me, has an higher benefit to spin with open points bays and a s$%t load more wind;)!!
Now, my last piece (slighty off the topic) goes with losing fish for me lately....I am going to go against the latest concepts getting a round suggesting 'strike and strike hard'.....I have reprogramed myself to do this in the last year, and found I am failing big time....I will no longer strike a HB lure, or one with trebbles. I will let the fish weight do the work on plastics, with only minimal rod pressure......Like I used to do successfully......WHY?? firstly because it worked, secondly....well, anatomy and pysiology of the fish will explain the rest.
Once again, great topic chris, and great info from everyone.
Cheers Steve
I'm glad you like the topic Steve ....... we haven't had a good discussion topic on freshwater chat for a while :P
Good input there Steve
I certainly had to go back to basics too ....... My rods were launching my plastics higher rather than longer ...... not loading the rod. :-[
You are right about the rods being used ..... they are more suited to snapper than anything else .... or punching out metal slugs
Being an old golfer ...... the concept of transferring your weight during a cast would not be totally foreign to you though - So I dare say you would have picked it up pretty quickly (along with timing the drive forward on completing the back cast) THIS IS ANOTHER GOOD TOPIC - Right there !
Have you done a comparison in custing length ?
Cheers
Chris
aussiebasser
07-07-2009, 09:42 PM
I started my fishing habit using threadlines and then fly, and didn't graduate to a baitcaster until Abu brought out the 6000 in about 1972. With any of these casting tools an important thing to remember is that the back cast is just as important as the delivery stroke. A bit like golf and cricket. There are times, as in the other sports, that a quick punch style cast is required, with very little back cast but these situations don't normally arise fishing for barra in impoundments. The rods should load correctly with the lure weight that is being used, so if you change lure weights, you should be changing rods as well. You don't see Tiger Woods playing a complete round with a 3 iron. It is possible to compromise, but it will always be a comprise, and you will not get the full benefit of the rod's design. If you are having problems with wind knots, which have nothing to do with the wind, try closing your bail arm before the lure hits the water. With the correct back cast, your lure will have a flatter trajectory and there will be less loose line in the air. When your lure is in the right spot, wind the handle and stop the line going out. The lure will pull the line tight as it lands and you won't get that loose loop of line over the spool lip. If you are using light lures and winding slack line, as we sometimes need to do when a finesse presentation is required, make a long cast into nowhere every half dozen casts. Wind the line back in through your fingers getting it as tight as possible on the spool. These days, the majority of my casts with either threadline or baitcaster see the reel in gear before the lure hits the water. This is especially helpful if fishing upstream into current or if there are surface feeding fish about that hit the lure as it lands. As to whether Baitcasters are better than Threadlines, it's a bit like asking if blondes are better than brunettes, each has it's place and is great fun in the right hands. Don't forget the redheads (fly) though, as once mastered it can be better than the others. Once again Nagg, you've started a thought provoking thread.
Steve B
07-07-2009, 09:49 PM
Casting lengths, well only a few basic on the water. I reckon the spin (egrell bear S10) about 5-10 meters longer (so far) than the longest 7ft Egrell baitcaster. The 6'6 baitcasters about another 5 or so meters shorter again. Once again it comes down to practice...another thing, I found the line important....Gone back to Fireline....no wind knots (another thing that turned me off spin). I am using a Saragosa 4000 that I got off the taylor boys....hope some Mojo rubbed off to the reel:P;) It feels really well balanced with the S10. I Tested the combo on some nice snapper, sweeties etc last night offshore....I wanted to check out a few things with loading up, hook set, rod angles, drags etc.....and just giving the combo a good workout!!!;);D....Got a bit nervous when my mate next to me caught a 30kg cobia...that would have tested the limits..
cheers Steve
Tropicaltrout
08-07-2009, 07:22 AM
Yep, just read most of this thread a good topic hey.... I love my baitcaster and pick it up alot when fishing mondy probably 90% use... but of late fishing placcies I found myself turning towards the spin gear? why well its simple I come out of the sticks fish points and use it for a different style....
As for the longer casts well different gear prejectile of the cast, knotts type, braid type and the other heap of varibles could mean the differance between lenght.
Nice stuff
SeekingBarradise
08-07-2009, 02:10 PM
Scotty it will be a pleasure to sit around the Awoonga Campfire for a yarn soon. Only 2 fireplaces left i think. My old campsite & tree down the back has been chopped down = gooonski. Keep an eye out for some firewood supplies for me. A couple a hundred kg's of iron bark should do the trick.
We will catchup for an idea swap like the time you took us out in what seemed like 40knots when we got wet and blown away but you still insisted in showing us around many of the area's you have caught the big girls. The next day Trev gave us a bug bath in the keeter and showed us every bird on the dam...
A yarn about how to save a shoulder, back without being sponsored by neurofen would be no sweat as you have taken the time to catchup and swap ideas which i really appreciated and so did my brother. Thankyou.
Injuries: Some of us will be heading for shoulder/elbow surgery later in life i reckon. Some from inevitable wear and tear, but others from poor attitudes towards our body e.g. the attitude of " I know everything and i don't need any help at all in casting, i'm a guru etc". Or " None of this stuff is important" kind of attitudes.
I'll let you know when i'm heading up mate. Nothing below has anything to do with you Scotty all good:D .
Free Info on the net
I've written another couple of helpfull replies that i'll post later. Firstly i just want to sort something out on the net. I am printing stuff on here i usually get paid for, as it's my work & Scotties. In fact stuff on this thread is already written for future books/articles. This is about the 4th time i've gone over positions so if i see guys on here that say they want to learn but they are still doing the same shit on a different day on the next trip, then i don't hold much hope for helping people for free on the net. I hope to be proven wrong.:D
Also Consider: Johnny derives his income from the fishing industry and knows a few of you on here but isn't good or best mates or anything, just people in the same scene so to pump someone's life work for free and expect it to be dished up for free on a platter everytime is unreasonable and getting close to being out of line. Some on the net will judge people that won't hand out their lifetimes work for free as bad people, which is way out of line, to put it mildly.
Remember he has been writing about rods, reels and so on for 5+ years on here and has gone over this many times with tips for us to run with and do the rest of the work figuring it out ourselves (Tinkering/fun). If you can't read then 2 hours of DVD spread over 2 different Barra dams should give you enough visual clues to work the rest out yourself. Surely lots of guys on here picked up these clues on the DVD if not the book or articles or free threads to the tune of 20 000 words. If not there is only 1 thing left for you to do.
Pumping for Info: If you want the gold nuggets put under your bed well then use some of the money from the cartons of beer drank per year or money spent on rods, reels and lures (Thousands) & put it towards a session with JM, Harro or Dolan etc. No worries here i'm cool writing this. Just make sure you are aware of what you are asking when asking a question on the net and expecting everything for free for 5 years straight, which some people have forgotten is not a god given right on the net.
A good bloke once said to me " You can't teach people that don't want to learn".
This thread is excellent and has the potential to be one of the best on here. Thankyou to everyone who has helped someone out in this thread.
Cheers Lyndon.:D
SeekingBarradise
08-07-2009, 02:48 PM
Dale you have been thinking and observing. You are dead right about the takeaway or backswing being as important. I know this has been talked about for decades & a writer wrote about this on here a year or 2 back, but Dale brought it up first on this thread and he has a good point.
Has anyone ever watched a Jav thrower and what the Jav does before throwing? A Tennis player serve? Have a think about it and work some things out for yourself. Try kicking a football while standing with 2 feet together but you are not allowed to throw your kicking leg behind you to get runup. You are only allowed to move your foot forward to kick the ball. See how unco that feels then you might see a bigger picture. Then kick it with a full swing at it. Note the difference.
Steve you are correct. I wrote last year for people to try casting on one leg, then opposite arm then sitting down to take the legs out of the equation and see how much control and power you lose. I know of 5 people that went out and trialled this then gave me feedback. It's no co-incidence that nearly all are members of the (thinking) Awoonga crew with an extra switched on guy giving me feedback from interstate. Ages ranged from 17 to 60+ year old's with the guys that took this on board. Yet hundreds read the thread. Scotty is excempt as he already knew this. The guys were Locky, Pup, Mitch, Harro and Dick.
I've seen kids beat strong grown men with poor setups. Position means a lot for the delivery of finesse control or raw distance or smooth power. If anyone hasn't thought about this, get off the sofa, go out and experiment now for yourself. We have just completed a back yard session today (Scotty) casting at Scrub Turkeys to work on a few things today. Lure modification is thisarvo's session then soft plastics. We have a choice to disregard and do nothing or get out tinkering and learning. I designed my best soft plastic in the last week which is awesome fun. I can't wait to show the Awoonga crew.
You raised a Good point Steve.
If you are not interested in learning you don't need to read this, just go to another thread etc.
Torso: Have a look at the bowler at delivery stride, tennis player serving and Jav thrower to name a few and watch the transfer. With Olympians we are still working on as little as a few cm's of movement & degree's of movement in areas over thousands of reps a year. All then combined with position and split second timing, then completed under pressure globally (Very Hard) not just in Australia.
It's that in depth but in a Global sport you have no choice, you have to go in depth as the gene pool is getting towards 7 Billion, in comparison the impoundment barra pool of anglers that would be less than a 100 partly serious fisho's with only less than 5 doing fulltime or part-time. Most can only train once a month so we are way of being an organised sport where organised training starts at the age of 4 right up to 44 then 64 on the seniors golf tour at world level.
We haven't even reached 1% in capacity of knowledge in this small scene. Put in perspective it's a very, very small scene, especially when compared internationally in fishing and other sports, yet we have a few amazing anglers in the mix that i hope in time everyone appreciates.
Things that are possible. Consider this. If your rod and reel combo comes in around 800gms would you believe that a Jav thrower can throw your entire rig over 80m. Yep and we are talking about slinging a plastic or 80gm lure on the end of a sling shot 7 ft rod approximately 30,40 or 50m. Food for thought. I'm having a laugh ok :D but Jav's are 800grams in weight and the world record is over 90m from a guy that is shorter than me and comes in 10kgs lighter. A 12 year old has thrown a cricket ball over 90m. 14 year olds kicked league footies drop kicking and torps over 60m. Much is possible if we don't limit out thinking.
I hope i helped a few people out. Now get out and give it a go and hopefully you are doing things easier with less risk of injury.
Reading and then moving on to the next best thread is not always the same as learning.
Cheers Lyndon.
Hi Lyndon
Just quickly on your point of seeking free information on the net & pumping for free information ...... particularly from people that derive an income from fishing (pros).
Most hereabouts would agree that it is out of line ...... & many if not most would feel uncomfortable about it . ....... Its a bit like asking for a GPS co ordinate ::) :-[
However ...... when someone chooses to participate in a forum like this - then offers some insight or thought ...but only in part .... - --- well , it just kinda leaves you a bit hollow :( .
..... Keep in mind that the respect & admiration that one accumulates .... often comes from what is put out there for free (sharing).......... Plenty of us then show our appreciation - the next time a new book or DVD is released :favorites:
In lots of ways , these forums are a cheap way of advertising
Food for thought:dankk2: ......
Chris
Dick Pasfield
08-07-2009, 06:15 PM
(Interesting, casting in the office whilst waiting for the printer to run through a job::))
Just a couple of points on the subject –
Despite my issue with wind knots earlier this year (fixed I hope, the spool was misaligned on its retaining sleeve by a couple of mm therefore the line was clumping at the bottom of the spool) I much prefer my spin outfits for shore based fishing where the platform is much less mobile than that of a boat. Often you have little choice of casting direction or the position to cast from when the location is tight. Additionally the situations of poor balance attributable to your platform are forgiven more often than not by spin gear. The quicker retrieve, a more robust one handed hold when scrambling and a greater ability to punch into the wind compensate to some degree for being landlocked.
Whilst still on the stones I also tend to like spin whilst fishing rapids as well where back eddies will move a fish quickly and you need to keep in contact with the fish. Baitcasters will still get you fish, its just a bit harder.
A couple of posts have focused on casting/body dynamics, something we don’t often think about and the subsequent injuries such as tennis of golfers elbow, or in more extreme cases popping a rib (did that casting a net without pre stretching). Weight distribution on your legs, not necessarily equally distributed either, foot spacing and the transfer of weight from one leg to another whilst maintaining good body balance is pretty crucial but will be ineffective unless it coordinated with what the upper body does as well. My rule of thumb is to take the time to set the body position initially and carry the force applied in the cast though to a rear leg push transferring weigh to the front leg rhythmically. I think the critical component here is regardless of when each particular body action may be initialed they all finish together.
I’d be interested in hearing other views on this, shoulder; elbow and wrist injuries can be the bane of anglers. Getting it right and getting the right gear to get it right can be pretty important.
aussiebasser
08-07-2009, 06:19 PM
Hey Lyndon,
I think a Javelin is a bit more aerodynamic than a spin rod and reel. I was taught to fly fish by a Scottish gentleman who wore a tweed jacket and a deer stalker hat. He was a technically perfect caster and waxed lyrical about the importance of a perfect back cast. While we were using split can and solid glass fly rods at the time the principles are the same, it just happens a lot quicker with graphite rods.
As for thinking and observing, it doesn't take many days on the water with Fitzy and Harro to further enhance what you've learnt over 40 odd years. Except Fitz casts with the wrong hand!
Tropicaltrout
08-07-2009, 07:38 PM
Bloody hell Lyndon you are like a coiled spring mate your fingers must go a thousand miles an hour:P
Well yep I hear what you are saying with you replies but on the other hand I think in all honesty a bit of what you see is taken a little to hard....
I agree with the free info scenario but most only are asking from personal experiance from each persons point of veiw... So in saying that, what I read when I see these type of posts is "What do you prefer and why?" Not the title of the thread...answer well thats the beauty of the forum set up there is no correct answer written on here as everyone will take what they read and branch off doing what they do and pick up thing s as they plod along...
As for the Free stuff well, like Johnny, yourself and anyone else who makes a dollar from fishing replie as you see fit, hints and tips are typed and spoken about but the majority of blokes on here and anywhere for that matter will still leave it at the ramp and persist in doing it there own way... I have seen a lot of fellas asking for tips and hints at the kitchen and seen them later after you told them a few bits and peices only to find that they herd of fish being caught a x so all you told them went out the other ear...
Fishing in most aspects in a passed down thing through generations of families, Father to son etc and most of us share a common bond and theres is a few that it is part of thier life ( my wife seems to think that's all I think about) and I don't think anyone will bat a eyelid if Johnny, or Harro sat next to a fire and shared past stories of trips gone bye, and if they choose to drop a idea or tip, hint or whatever then its of there choice, not free info just enjoying fishing with blokes that love fishing just like them...
I remember my Tuna days everyone would hold info and keep quiet then as soon as the ropes dropped over the bollards we were all mates and chatted about each others trip and dropped tips on where we where etc...
Anyhow how good is it we can tap away on this set of keys and have conversation about fishing, its awesome..
Nath
Steve B
08-07-2009, 09:27 PM
Scotty it will be a pleasure to sit around the Awoonga Campfire for a yarn soon. Only 2 fireplaces left i think. My old campsite & tree down the back has been chopped down = gooonski. Keep an eye out for some firewood supplies for me. A couple a hundred kg's of iron bark should do the trick.
We will catchup for an idea swap like the time you took us out in what seemed like 40knots when we got wet and blown away but you still insisted in showing us around many of the area's you have caught the big girls. The next day Trev gave us a bug bath in the keeter and showed us every bird on the dam...
A yarn about how to save a shoulder, back without being sponsored by neurofen would be no sweat as you have taken the time to catchup and swap ideas which i really appreciated and so did my brother. Thankyou.
Injuries: Some of us will be heading for shoulder/elbow surgery later in life i reckon. Some from inevitable wear and tear, but others from poor attitudes towards our body e.g. the attitude of " I know everything and i don't need any help at all in casting, i'm a guru etc". Or " None of this stuff is important" kind of attitudes.
I'll let you know when i'm heading up mate. Nothing below has anything to do with you Scotty all good:D .
Free Info on the net
I've written another couple of helpfull replies that i'll post later. Firstly i just want to sort something out on the net. I am printing stuff on here i usually get paid for, as it's my work & Scotties. In fact stuff on this thread is already written for future books/articles. This is about the 4th time i've gone over positions so if i see guys on here that say they want to learn but they are still doing the same shit on a different day on the next trip, then i don't hold much hope for helping people for free on the net. I hope to be proven wrong.:D
Also Consider: Johnny derives his income from the fishing industry and knows a few of you on here but isn't good or best mates or anything, just people in the same scene so to pump someone's life work for free and expect it to be dished up for free on a platter everytime is unreasonable and getting close to being out of line. Some on the net will judge people that won't hand out their lifetimes work for free as bad people, which is way out of line, to put it mildly.
Remember he has been writing about rods, reels and so on for 5+ years on here and has gone over this many times with tips for us to run with and do the rest of the work figuring it out ourselves (Tinkering/fun). If you can't read then 2 hours of DVD spread over 2 different Barra dams should give you enough visual clues to work the rest out yourself. Surely lots of guys on here picked up these clues on the DVD if not the book or articles or free threads to the tune of 20 000 words. If not there is only 1 thing left for you to do.
Pumping for Info: If you want the gold nuggets put under your bed well then use some of the money from the cartons of beer drank per year or money spent on rods, reels and lures (Thousands) & put it towards a session with JM, Harro or Dolan etc. No worries here i'm cool writing this. Just make sure you are aware of what you are asking when asking a question on the net and expecting everything for free for 5 years straight, which some people have forgotten is not a god given right on the net.
A good bloke once said to me " You can't teach people that don't want to learn".
This thread is excellent and has the potential to be one of the best on here. Thankyou to everyone who has helped someone out in this thread.
Cheers Lyndon.:D
A good bloke once told me 'you cant put brains in monuments' too;D;D
Thanks for the info, and believe me we appreciate what the guys who derive a living from fishing add to these forums in any form. You dont have to do it, but you guys do...good things come to those who do good.
Dick, I have often wondered about long term casting/fishing injuries.....usually we only worry about injuries sustained from the wife when we get home to late from fishing too often.;)
In seriousness, I manage not to suffer too much fatigue or pain after big sessions....for now...depends on the long term I spose. I too am also keen to hear of other injury and RSI injuries from their long sessions casting.....Now theres a topic not discussed very much.
I do concentrate on timing and effort inceasingly more over past year.. As a paramedic, we learn and practice plenty of balance and lifting techniques etc and how to catch someone who collapses without breaking your back!!!...its learn or have a f&%ked back for life.....Its quite amazing to watch 60kg women lifting 120+kg men off the ground using simple balance and weight shifting methods...I know its off the subject but has some relevance to fine tuning casting/retrieving to fully utilise you momentum and timing to gain max distance with minimal resistance. I probably havent give as much time to this topic as I should have over the years.but if you add up the decreased fatigue, you increase the number of possible casts in a day + the extra distance created by correct technique and accuracy = lure in right zone, and in the water for way way way longer each day = more chance of fish before you even get into all other aspects.!!!!!
cheers Steve
SeekingBarradise
08-07-2009, 10:48 PM
Hi Nath good to hear from you. :D
I disagree, there is info pumping that goes on and i thought it was maybe time for a line in the sand where spoon feeding stops and our own thinking and tinkering starts, i thought it was just fair. When it's someones business and they have done more than most to help for free i reckon the rent is more than paid in 20 000 words plus.
The love of fishing and things being passed down is right, but off track on this thread. It goes back to the first thread, if you are in fishing to learn as much as possible or just happy to fish most of the time and not learn as much. The confusion between these 2 is where things break down, i think many want to think they want to learn but don't really want to have a good hard look at themselves or do the hard work. (Gold nuggets).
You are right, fishing with family is one of the best things we can do. :D
No arguement there they are special times, but this thread isn't about that.
You and i have both seen people on this thread who have complained about problems with regards to their fishing. You have even talked to me about it at length.
I've spotted stacks of awesome tips in this thread. What handy stuff have you spotted that you might learn from? Do you have any helpfull info to add for everyone to use as your a smart guy Nath and as the footy show says " Give us something?:D
Dale yeah how good is Fitz and Harro. It was great watching those 2 at work at Awoonga on a cold morning. I had a ball and didn't even feel the need to cast a lure. I wonder how many miss these opportunities yet live relatively close by.
I haven't even mentioned Harro's take on casting which was just magic to the ears around the campsite.:D Fitzy has some good ideas about rod delivery as well he has already covered a while back. Your a lucky guy to have shared time with these guys.
Research: To run with Steve's & Dicks last thread about lifting positions, movement and muscle wear and tear. I wonder how many guys and girls on here get sore shoulders and elbows or a sore back from fishing? I'd be interested to know as i get a good dose of rod shoulder and i saw a sportsman have a bad elbow for 6 months after a full on casting trip. Have you been injured when fishing e.g. casting?
Cheers Lyndon.:D :D :D
Steve & Lyndon ..... I'll put my hand up
Basically a form of RSI towards the end of last years barra tour ........ After the best part of 3 weeks of solid casting it got to a point where I could not lift a litre bottle of water above horizontal & then bend the elbow ....... bloody painful & the best part of 4 months to overcome the pain
Apparently the repetition & constant pressure of the grip on the bottom (left) hand .
:-/ Strangely it didn't stop me from fishing ...... fairly pain free.
However even now .... if I stretch my arm out to the horizontal plane & then try to crush a can ..... I can still feel the pain in the elbow .
Chris
PaulMark
08-07-2009, 11:33 PM
I used to play golf pretty good as a young bloke,then I got bamboozled by technique, tried to fiddle with the backswing,weight transfer etc..etc.By the end of it i was flat out hitting a ball. Moral to the tale; Don't get technical,enjoy what you're doing and it will happen.Lifes too short for all the complexity(good word8-))
You're all catching damn good fish whats the problem??:-/
Paulo
Whitto
09-07-2009, 06:40 AM
I used to play golf pretty good as a young bloke,then I got bamboozled by technique, tried to fiddle with the backswing,weight transfer etc..etc.By the end of it i was flat out hitting a ball. Moral to the tale; Don't get technical,enjoy what you're doing and it will happen.Lifes too short for all the complexity(good word8-))
You're all catching damn good fish whats the problem??:-/
PauloPaul....... That is the smartest piece of advise I have heard for a long time.....I totally agree.......Whitto
aussiebasser
09-07-2009, 07:14 AM
I suffer from fairly severe OOS in my right wrist. Carpel Tunnel Syndrome. I've been wearing a cast on my wrist at night, on and off for 4 years now. The doc would like to operate, but that would put me out of fishing for a minimum of 6 weeks, so that's not an option. At the end of a big day casting, I frequently drop things, and the morning after see's me wake up with a numb hand, and unable to clench a fist. This is why I break up my day with casting with both baitcaster and threadline, a bit of fly work, which is really hard on the wrist, and a bit of trolling. I lost one of Paul Dolan's $75 ES lures a couple of years ago because my wrist locked up mid cast. Sorry Paul. I'm off to New Guinea in a bit over a week for 9 days full on fishing. The recovery of my wrist will probably take six months as it did last year. Then there's my shoulder and back, but I think they are just due to age. Ostioarthritis in the lower back has been worsening for about 5 years, and a good casting seat up the bow helps this. Geez, the old body has gone to the pack over the years, but I can't blame it all on fishing.
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
09-07-2009, 07:14 AM
I get a painful burning left elbow joint whilst lake barra fishing, and a dead shoulder from spanish mac fishing with a rope line. RSI?,,,,, or i'm just plain and simply too skinny and stick man like to be doing either!
JM
Whitto
09-07-2009, 07:33 AM
A bit like Taxes and Death.....both guaranteed....I hear what your saying Dale a combination of Days gone by and age......The shoulder and wrist are still holding up but the old back gives me some curry....find my self sitting down at times casting.....I guess we deal with it the best way we can....sure as hell not going to give up Fishing
Awoonga
09-07-2009, 07:35 AM
I get a painful burning left elbow joint whilst lake barra fishing, and a dead shoulder from spanish mac fishing with a rope line. RSI?,,,,, or i'm just plain and simply too skinny and stick man like to be doing either!
JM That left elbow should be pretty good at the moment then :-X But that Shoulder would be giving you hell ;D
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
09-07-2009, 07:43 AM
Yep, well rested. The mind is refreshed, and much has been achieved in the world outside Awoonga town in the last 6 weeks. I'll post a link to some footage Trev that highlights why my left elbow is no longer sore this winter. I reckon you may have sore eyes after watching it.............close your mouth Trev, you're drooling!
:)
Plasticin
09-07-2009, 08:40 AM
I used to play golf pretty good as a young bloke,then I got bamboozled by technique, tried to fiddle with the backswing,weight transfer etc..etc.By the end of it i was flat out hitting a ball. Moral to the tale; Don't get technical,enjoy what you're doing and it will happen.Lifes too short for all the complexity(good word8-))
You're all catching damn good fish whats the problem??:-/
Paulo
And I'm quite sure that Tiger Woods adopted that same approach.
SeekingBarradise
09-07-2009, 09:14 AM
I used to play golf pretty good as a young bloke,then I got bamboozled by technique, tried to fiddle with the backswing,weight transfer etc..etc.By the end of it i was flat out hitting a ball. Moral to the tale; Don't get technical,enjoy what you're doing and it will happen.Lifes too short for all the complexity(good word8-))
You're all catching damn good fish whats the problem??:-/
Paulo
Hi Paulo yes i've seen that. However on Ausfish there are thousands of keep it simple threads to read, we read them daily and they dominate the herd. It's just that in this thread we have a chance to do some real thinking, to balance out all the keep it simple threads as with most things if you are seeking to improve, it's rarely simple.
We start even the most complex sporting plans with a 1,2,3 plan. A simple entry into a lifetime of work. Start at level 1, but in fishing i see this breakdown and skipped for level ten done poorly. See post 3 etc.
One Of The Worst Years In Impoundment Barra History:-X
When you say " Your'e all catching damn good fish what's the problem??"
Well that couldn't be further from the truth, it's been the hardest time any of the guys i know can remember on barra dams since last October to the tune of even guides getting donuts, tournament winning anglers at times going 6 trips in a row that are fishless and so on. Awoonga has been horrendous. Even Peter Faust Dam dished up 100+ x 6 hour donut sessions to the tournament guys in pre-fish and comp. Hard fishing in anyones language.:-/
Keeping it simple has delivered thousands of donuts since October, but i guess this info has been kept quiet if i'm the first to break it. It's not all happy days on barra dams these days, hence the need for this thread.
This gives us a choice. To think and work on tactics & help each other, like this thread or to throw the anchors out by people blocking learning and to travel down a learning highway on a steamroller rather than a V8. I think it would be unfair to only travel at the pace of the slowest cattle in the mob. There are plenty of threads doing this but now and then some cattle that jump the fence and think outside the square should get a chance to help without being held back by people telling them to slow down. It's almost as if some don't want people to achieve anything in life or on the net as it takes them outside their comfort zone. :D (To think).
All we ask is to have one thread now and then where we can speed up learning and not travel at the slowest coacher in the mobs pace. Hell this is just how we talk around the fireplace at Awoonga, and if we are not allowed to do that on here it's news to me.
At the end of the day if the slow coachers in the mob don't want the people trying to help to interact & post their info online for free then it might result in people that want to learn getting driven away by those that don't.:D
As said on page 1.
If your goal isn't to think much than this thread isn't or you.
If you like to think a bit more and advance things now and then, then this is a perfect opportunity to interact with something positive to help people. This thread isn't about the love of fishing or family. It's about thinking a bit more to help others and Nagg has started it so hat's off to him. If anyone wants to argue instead of helping just pm me, but please try and post helpfull ideas for everyone to learn from. This might be a good idea from now on?
Whitto and Paulo what do you guys think of your spin setups? Let's talk about that. What mods have you done to make the setups better etc any tips?
Cheers Lyndon:D :D :D
SeekingBarradise
09-07-2009, 09:31 AM
Do any Certate owners care to share their rod to reel setup i'm interested in them as i've heard they are a gem of a reel?
Did you have to buy a couple of rods to get the right combo?
How long and what rating was the rod?
Cheers Lyndon.
Big_Ren
09-07-2009, 10:33 AM
I suffer from fairly severe OOS in my right wrist. Carpel Tunnel Syndrome. I've been wearing a cast on my wrist at night, on and off for 4 years now. The doc would like to operate, but that would put me out of fishing for a minimum of 6 weeks, so that's not an option. At the end of a big day casting, I frequently drop things, and the morning after see's me wake up with a numb hand, and unable to clench a fist. This is why I break up my day with casting with both baitcaster and threadline, a bit of fly work, which is really hard on the wrist, and a bit of trolling. I lost one of Paul Dolan's $75 ES lures a couple of years ago because my wrist locked up mid cast. Sorry Paul. I'm off to New Guinea in a bit over a week for 9 days full on fishing. The recovery of my wrist will probably take six months as it did last year. Then there's my shoulder and back, but I think they are just due to age. Ostioarthritis in the lower back has been worsening for about 5 years, and a good casting seat up the bow helps this. Geez, the old body has gone to the pack over the years, but I can't blame it all on fishing.
You are lucky you are not a horse Dale, or we would be calling you Beefy by now.
Sounds like an awful juggling act for you. Hope all comes good. Perhaps if you have the op, six weeks out ain't such a bad thing in the grand scheme of things.
Cheers
Paul
Big_Ren
09-07-2009, 10:35 AM
I get a painful burning left elbow joint whilst lake barra fishing, and a dead shoulder from spanish mac fishing with a rope line. RSI?,,,,, or i'm just plain and simply too skinny and stick man like to be doing either!
JM
Too skinny and definitely a stick man Johnny;D I can certainly give you sound advice on how to fix that. You have obviously been listening to too many diet gurus;)
I used to be fit, just changed one letter:o .
Big_Ren
09-07-2009, 10:46 AM
Do any Certate owners care to share their rod to reel setup i'm interested in them as i've heard they are a gem of a reel?
Did you have to buy a couple of rods to get the right combo?
How long and what rating was the rod?
Cheers Lyndon.
Hi Lyndon
Yes, I do love my Certate but don't use it as much as the Branzino these days. I have the Certate 3500 HD Custom (spooled with 35lb YGK).
It sits beneath a Pro Blue Loomis (PBR843S) which is a 7' spin stick essentially. It is rated 6-12kg.
The combo used to be (and still is) my snapper plastics outfit and is perfectly suited to that purpose, but I have since enlisted it for barra duty as well. But if I had my time over again, would I purchase the same combo......no way.
The Loomis is a little gung ho for my liking. To me, it is slightly ungainly and cumbersome to hang onto and cast all day. Although the Certate is perfectly matched to this rod, I would definitely downsize to the 3000 model. Eric's B8-5 or 8-6, or his Barra Spin stick would be a good marriage for it for sure.......silky smooth drag, Saltiga gearing......it is a piece of work mate.
I think JM has a smaller Certate, which you would know, Eric G I believe uses the 4000, and Ben and Navi also use the 3500 HD Custom.
Cheers
Paul
Steve B
09-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Ren,
Balance in a combo doesn't involve its integrated fine tuned balance with the stubbie in your other hand.:P ;D
I have had a throw of a certate hypercustom 4000....very very smooth reel yes, but I didnt really like it. I found it too big and broad diametre spool. Mabey the 3000 size would be better....it would no doubt be up to the task. I found it very similar to your brazino that day....just a bit solid for the job....no doubt about the quality though. I like my daiwa and shimano baitcasters, but I have always found a better, more comfortable feeling personally with shimano spin....in all ranges from stradic/saros 1000 for bass through to the saragosa 4000 for barra...its obviously a personal thing, but I just have never enjoyed daiwa spin reels....I think the sol would be mabey an exception as it appears to have a narrower diameter spool....but I cant comment, as I have never used one.
Steve
Big_Ren
09-07-2009, 12:31 PM
Ren,
Balance in a combo doesn't involve its integrated fine tuned balance with the stubbie in your other hand.:P ;D
Steve
Years of practice Steve....years of practice.........the stubby has mostly evaporated by the time I cast though;D
aussiebasser
09-07-2009, 12:56 PM
Do any Certate owners care to share their rod to reel setup i'm interested in them as i've heard they are a gem of a reel?
Did you have to buy a couple of rods to get the right combo?
How long and what rating was the rod?
Cheers Lyndon.
I have a Certate Hyper Custom 4000 on an early Egrell S4 (7') best fish on this was a 114 at Awoonga. I also have a Branzino on a Megabass Destroyer Orochi Jade Python F4-74XS (7'4")rated to 16lb. A Fuego 3000 on a Megabass XOR Silver Shadow SSX-72ML (7'2")rated to 16lb. Pam loves her Emeraldas on a Megabass Destroyer Super Full House F2-611XS (6'11") rated to 12lb. (She's taken Golden Trevally to 22lb and a metre Queenie on this). My latest rod is a one off Egrell. If anyone remembers the early B8-7 Baitcaster, I Eric kindly rebuilt it as a split grip threadline. (This is the same blank Birdy uses for his salt water stuff.) It has a Saltiga S-Extreme 4500 loaded with 60lb Castaway. If I need to use a threadline in the sticks, this will be the rod.
The major problem I see with the Megabass rods in the small guide diameter.
Hello Lyndon, I regularly use my 2500 certate hypercustom with 20lb saltiga braid, matched to a loomis mossyback 8-14lb ex fast rod, very good for lighter plastics, if I had my time again I would get a slightly longer rod. I also have a sol 2500 on a gary howard shakira, 4-8kg with 20lb samurai braid, i actually use this rod more as it feels nicer than the mossyback and casts further despite being 2 inches shorter. both are very good for 110 sized squidgeys, atomic prong hopping and 4 inch hollow bellies but are a little light to cast the bigger soft plastics. I have just bought a steez 2508 and put it on a gary howard rod as well but haven't used it on barra yet so no opinion yet. cheers scott.
darylive
09-07-2009, 07:31 PM
I get a painful burning left elbow joint whilst lake barra fishing, and a dead shoulder from spanish mac fishing with a rope line. RSI?,,,,, or i'm just plain and simply too skinny and stick man like to be doing either!
JM
Having had Medial and radial epicondolitis (golf and tennis elbow) for 14 yrs. It comes and goes. I have had most accepted treatments short of an operation, physio, chyro, quarterzone under ulta sound etc. etc. I have been diagnosed by the top upper arm guru Mater Private and am currently receiving treatment from a hand therapist and wear an arm brace and elbow wrap.
The short version is you are stuck with it :(. The only real way to get it to ease is to rest it which is bloody hard to do and as such why I ended up with the brace.
The specialist advises after numerous tests and evaluation on groups receiving treatment or not there is little long term benefit in all the needles etc. :-/.
At worst I have not been able to move the arm without agony and I am no sook.
The best advise I can give is when it is bad rest it! Ride along, pass the drinks etc. Get a good quality tennis elbow brace / strap with a built in gel pad and make sure you know how and where to fit it. If you are doing something that will aggravate the arm wear it! Because the stiff arm brace will really cramp your style and you cannot fish with it.
Back back to the post, Great stuff and certianly an interesting exercise. Thanks All
Jeremy87
09-07-2009, 08:53 PM
Have you done a comparison in custing length ?
Cheers
Chris
Always wanted to go down to a park and test casting distances, but unforetunately I can only put up with so many bad jokes. I could only put up with so many "Catching much comments" before i'd get the sh!ts. alteratively i use land marks and space it out at home using google earth.
Tropicaltrout
09-07-2009, 08:58 PM
On the cheap end of the scale I run a Daiwa Triforce 3000 with 30lb Bionic, attached to a old ugly stick with a extended butt for longer casts, as i flick i push down the butt and seem to generate more distance, Simular to a Baseball pitch push through your legs, let the rod load and flick the arm over with a suttle push down with the free hand to quicken the rods motion.
I also have notaiced with a swinging lure, as it swings start the cast on the up part of the swing and it seems to produce just a smidge more....
If you watch the masters of the fly fishing game Harro, Rowie etc they double hual thier fly lines, by giving the line a pull on the back cast to load up the rod to produce a further cast, sort of a simular thing with the extra length on the butt if ya get my drift... excuse the bad wording..
Nath
robersl
09-07-2009, 09:18 PM
I have a diawa excellor 3000 on a little boat road won at last years river to mud and i have landed 3 barra on it from 95-115cm drag handles the pressure no worries
shane
Sorry, but Im not telling any one what my spin out fit is.
Its taken me years (a whole 2 of them actually) of hard work trolling the net for the latest buzz, up-grading rod and reel as dictated by the newest magazine cover shot, sifting thru glossy advertisements searching for the gurus faces and their all knowing advice, Ive watched 4 DVD's, I saw a lure casting demo at last years boat show in some big tank thingy, Ive pumped my mates for info on their gear, then dropped em like a used tissue, Ive lurked on differant chat rooms, allways watching, rarely posting.
If you think Im giving up all that to help youzzzzze blokes, ya dreamin!!!
Jeremy87
09-07-2009, 09:33 PM
Ok a bit of a tackle review since it is appropriate for the thread. The spin outfit i was using in the billabongs in the NT was a 4000 stella FD matched with a gary howard samurai nv7. The rod is only 6ft but is responsive, light and has power to burn. The short length is not ideal for distance casting with light plastics, but does make it it ideal for heavier hard lures and can be cast surprisingly far for such a short rod. It has the capacity to be fished light (around 2kgs of drag) while still holding a working load but for spool grabs and tough tactics can be loaded to well over 4kgs probably up to 5. The stella fills in an important gap in threadline size left in the daiwa market where the 3000 and 4000 may not complimant appropriate rods. It is light (270grams) but strong, and would give any competing daiwa a run for its money with the benifit of having a stocked drag that isn't crap. The original washers are still running properly smoothe after a year of use in both salt and fresh. The new shimano spool design casts better than any threadline i have used. The 4.8:1 gear ratio enables speed when needed without compremising strength and lure control like many other higher speed shimano reels built with saltwater spinning in mind. I would challenge all daiwa die hards to consider this reel, it is the only threadline i have picked up that after a year of use I genuinely cannot find fault in.
Awoonga
10-07-2009, 01:08 AM
Sorry, but Im not telling any one what my spin out fit is.
Its taken me years (a whole 2 of them actually) of hard work trolling the net for the latest buzz, up-grading rod and reel as dictated by the newest magazine cover shot, sifting thru glossy advertisements searching for the gurus faces and their all knowing advice, Ive watched 4 DVD's, I saw a lure casting demo at last years boat show in some big tank thingy, Ive pumped my mates for info on their gear, then dropped em like a used tissue, Ive lurked on differant chat rooms, allways watching, rarely posting.
If you think Im giving up all that to help youzzzzze blokes, ya dreamin!!!
Well there you go ....said like a true champion
I used to play golf pretty good as a young bloke,then I got bamboozled by technique, tried to fiddle with the backswing,weight transfer etc..etc.By the end of it i was flat out hitting a ball. Moral to the tale; Don't get technical,enjoy what you're doing and it will happen.Lifes too short for all the complexity(good word8-))
You're all catching damn good fish whats the problem??:-/
Paulo
Unless you want to improve & want some consistency !
Chris
Whitto
10-07-2009, 07:30 AM
On the cheap end of the scale I run a Daiwa Triforce 3000 with 30lb Bionic, attached to a old ugly stick with a extended butt for longer casts, as i flick i push down the butt and seem to generate more distance, Simular to a Baseball pitch push through your legs, let the rod load and flick the arm over with a suttle push down with the free hand to quicken the rods motion.
I also have notaiced with a swinging lure, as it swings start the cast on the up part of the swing and it seems to produce just a smidge more....
If you watch the masters of the fly fishing game Harro, Rowie etc they double hual thier fly lines, by giving the line a pull on the back cast to load up the rod to produce a further cast, sort of a simular thing with the extra length on the butt if ya get my drift... excuse the bad wording..
NathIt's funny you should mention giving the line a pull on the back cast to load up the rod....A mate of mine does the same thing with better casting results....(He is an old Trout man).....definatedly something in that
Sorry, but Im not telling any one what my spin out fit is.
Its taken me years (a whole 2 of them actually) of hard work trolling the net for the latest buzz, up-grading rod and reel as dictated by the newest magazine cover shot, sifting thru glossy advertisements searching for the gurus faces and their all knowing advice, Ive watched 4 DVD's, I saw a lure casting demo at last years boat show in some big tank thingy, Ive pumped my mates for info on their gear, then dropped em like a used tissue, Ive lurked on differant chat rooms, allways watching, rarely posting.
If you think Im giving up all that to help youzzzzze blokes, ya dreamin!!!
TEFLON AGAIN ..... HEY!
Well you know what you can do with your spin combo ;)
Actually ...... Today I get to play with another spin combo (Take 5) Thanks Steve B , I'll look after your suped up Egrel S10 ....... but I had to put the Certate 3000 on it :P
Chris
PS .... Steve do you have the photo of the next new blinged up barra outfit :P
Braidmaster
10-07-2009, 07:44 AM
when working soft plastics with spin and baitcast i made the move to use left handed reels. putting the rod in my dominent right hand. the difference in retrieve control was very obvious. it felt wierd for a while but now i would never go back. the control gained also increased my strike rate on softies. with hard bodies i gain more control with rod in left hand.
current spin outfit, egrell s6 with stradic 4000.
a good match.
Tropicaltrout;1043077]On the cheap end of the scale I run a Daiwa Triforce 3000 with 30lb Bionic, attached to a old ugly stick with a extended butt for longer casts, as i flick i push down the butt and seem to generate more distance, Simular to a Baseball pitch push through your legs, let the rod load and flick the arm over with a suttle push down with the free hand to quicken the rods motion.
Nath
So , what about your casting action ;D
Steve B
10-07-2009, 09:00 AM
TEFLON AGAIN ..... HEY!
Well you know what you can do with your spin combo ;)
Actually ...... Today I get to play with another spin combo (Take 5) Thanks Steve B , I'll look after your suped up Egrel S10 ....... but I had to put the Certate 3000 on it :P
Chris
PS .... Steve do you have the photo of the next new blinged up barra outfit :P
Working on it Chris. The glare off the 'shiney new reel' is causing problems with the image. It belongs in a glass cabinet under lights just to look at;)
Part 2, here is some pics at F@xies as we worked on a finely tuned outfit for NAGG to chase barra. Beautiful combo to say the least.
Plasticin
10-07-2009, 02:26 PM
when working soft plastics with spin and baitcast i made the move to use left handed reels. putting the rod in my dominent right hand. the difference in retrieve control was very obvious. it felt wierd for a while but now i would never go back. the control gained also increased my strike rate on softies. with hard bodies i gain more control with rod in left hand.
Seeing as we are going this way. Studies have indicated that our dominant hand is better at smaller, fine motor tasks tasks like knitting, computer typing, reel winding and perhaps even working a rod tip. Common sense really given that we always use our dominate side preferentially for smaller more finite tasks. However and this is the interesting thing is that gross motor/muscle strength has been shown to be greater in the non-dominant side. What does that mean? It means we have more strength and generally power on our non-dominant side.
Put your previous prejudices aside and think what do I want to do with my rod??? Do I want to be able to react and hit the fish with everything I have got and therefore reduce my chance of missing strikes. Or should I give my self every chance of getting the strike in the first place.
I guess you need to decide for yourself whether working a rod/lure is fine or gross motor task. I would venture to say that not all versions of fishing would produce the same answers.
Further building on the earlier stuff regarding overuse injuries, the whole point towards injury prevention was mentioned in my earlier "technically anal" post (no offence taken Pete - everyone thinks differently in this world). For those that disregarded it, I have already mentioned how to reduce your chances/manage medial and lateral epicondylalgia (tennis and golfers elbow-figured someone would be impressed with the big words)
Using the body in the strongest way possible = the most efficient, therefore less chance of insidious injuries. Common sense really...::) ::) ::)
Scott
SeekingBarradise
10-07-2009, 03:40 PM
Double post again sorry:D
SeekingBarradise
10-07-2009, 03:46 PM
Before I commented here , I just went down the local park armed with my barra threadline outfit & favourite barra baitcast outfit...... same leader length, line & 5" Tango dancer (hooks removed)
Interestingly ..... I pretty well nailed my first cast with the spin rod (46 M) ..... but never improved on the distance averaging between 44-46M over 20 casts
With the baitcast outfit ..... first few casts were around the 42-43M mark .... However this distance increased to 53M (Av 50-52M)
now ... all this proves is that I can throw a baitcaster further than a threadline :)
However I wonder if the notion of barra spin gear outperforming baitcast gear is just a misconception ( with the exception of very light presentations) .
I'll be interested if others found the same
Chris
Hi Chris it's great to see you were the one that got off his ass and went out and trialled a few things (tinkering/thinking). :D Although i'm not sure if you have completely understood the others on here that have commented about spin setups as you shot things down pretty quickly (replies). Go back an re read Mitch's thread.
Your baitcast setup looks to have good distance, well done. Can i ask how much $$$ your combo costs e.g. Rod, Reel, Braid and any other mods?
I did the same casting test with a 10-12cm cheap popper (not sure what brand).
The 7ft fleuger spin rod 3-6kg cast the popper with no hooks 56m.
Lots of casts traveled over 50m fairly easiy on the footy oval.
I step out marks daily for work. I stepped out 55m then measured it and it was 56m so pretty close. I had every 5m marked with cones from the 20m marker (Cricket Pitch) onwards right up to 55m with a mate out on the 50m mark to put a cone exactly on the mark where the lure landed.
In simple thinking terms.:D
If you stand on half way line of a footy oval with a decent spin outfit with only a $90 rod and a 3000 series spin outfit with 20lb line & 40lb leader or lighter (more of a light plastics setup) you should be able to cast from half way and hit the try line (score). (No Wind).
*Note i didn' want to use max size leader with a lot of force which might snap something as i'm not sponsored and it's not worth snapping a guide or rod to prove anything on the net.:) I was confident i could snap something if i went close to 90-100% so i didn't. At 70-80% or your max force combined with a good setup should get you over 50m of casting distance. Obviously the heavier you go with leader and line the less distance you will get. I even had a 13 year old who's only been fishing 5 times cast over 40m straight up.
Where is your current barra setup?
As i get a bit more cash i'll be using all different lines and leader sizes to document distance gained or lost. The base will be what you did Chris and that is to use your exact Barra setup first, document it then tinker around for more control and easier distance. First the original setups need to be tested to see where they are really at as judging distance on the water is hard at times.
Poppers will give max distance, but curved lures, bibs & trebbles will shorten things and add wind resistance etc. I predict many will end up in the low 40's with late arvo casts with bibbed lures with trebbles on them holding a lot of casts back in to the 30m ish zone.
Upping the Ante
If the setup is a bit better you should be able to hit the black dot at post height which will result in a 55+metre cast which i reckon anyone on a barra dam would be happy to achieve without the use of a surf rod. *Although distance is not alwasy needed in every fishing situation.:D
Clarification: Yes distance isn't the be all and end all, but forming a base of stats to understand the gear you & i own could be usefull. That's part of what Mitch's post eluded to. Atleast you might work out for yourself that your current setup is shit, good or excellent at delivering lures. If it's a poor setup i reckon we won't here the stats on the net lol, but it will result in a few new rods or reel setups (thinking/tinkering) being bought or modified throughout the rest of the year (on the quiet).:) Watch next summers gear in your mates boats! See if anything has changed, even line etc.
Some 5 foot to 6 foot snake killing rods with big barrel baitcasters stuck on them might be shown to be 10-15meters behind the game without the owners knowing this until now. Especially with 50lb line and 80lb leaders let alone poor technique, rods, reels or shoulder or elbow injuries.
Whats Possible: I reckon a better spin setup than mine will hit 60m with the exact same protocols i used and good on you if you do, go for it, just make sure it's measured honestly i'll be the first to shake your hand. My setup is around mid range in price. $90 rod and approx $200 reel so it will be interesting to hear what the guys do with their $350-$$700 rods and $350-$800 reels when combined in a $1000+ combo. I'd love to hear of a $100 combo do well.
Bring on the Alveys with 6-7ft rods not the 8-12 footers that wouldn't be fair.
This thread has the potential for stretching the truth, but please be as accurate as possible.:D
I've just read Scotts thread and i reckon to clarify what finesse or controll means maybe have a look at the Taylors or Mitchell on DVD as words don't seem to be getting through on the net at times. These clues have been on DVD for atleast 3 years or a thousand (1000)+ days now. They have even been screened for free on TV. Were they taken on board or missed for the next best thing. Did anyone change anything they do over the last 3 years because of these guys? Or was not 1 tip or 1 lesson learn't from some of the best over the last 1000 days? Food for thought hey?
The Challenge
I hope to be driving past ovals on the weekend seeing people casting from half way and i really hope to see line wrapped around the black dot of footy goal posts.:D This isn't a casting comp as you would have to have the exact same age rod, reel, line, leader, slug with all of us on the oval at the same time. It's just a tangible test we can all do ourselves to see where we and our gear is really at, as words are cheap on the net but actions soon will sort out the good gear/setups from the not so good and at the end of the day it should teach us something about our setups, more than words seem to do on the net.
Most of all have fun guys. Cheers Lyndon.:D :D :D
Dick Pasfield
10-07-2009, 09:09 PM
A couple of years ago I started to develop golfer's/tennis elbow (cant remember which one) Sought out my chiropractor once it got bad and she had it sorted in a couple of visits and showed me the massage point to nip it in the bud. We didn't worry a preventative at that stage but I did start to alternate casting hands more often from then on. Problem solvered.
Did a Chris and Lyndon tonight with one of my spin sticks, had a bit of an idea from some rough measurements before, just wanted to confirm them. Jarvis Walker Tuff Tip, about $50 worth with a Spinfisher 5500 and 100lb leader, as fished. Got 40 metres consistently. From that I know the 7ft ugly stik/Spinfisher would give me about 45 metres and the single handed uglystik baitcasted with the ABU would give not much motre than 30 metres.
Not as far as you fellas but I'd reckon my average cast fishing would be only between 15 and 30 metres. 50 metres would put me clear across the other side of the river;D
aussiebasser
10-07-2009, 09:24 PM
To get really scientific and compare apples to apples I'll try to get hold of an S10 and put it up against the B10. Same line, leader and lure, so it should give an indication of what gets further. Then again, it will only prove it for the way I cast and the results really won't mean squat for anyone else. If you prefer to use baitcast gear, use it, if you prefer threadline, use that. There are only a very small minority of anglers who will judge you for what you prefer. It's a tiny minority actually and it doesn't really matter. Why don't we just measure something else to decide on the winner?
SeekingBarradise
10-07-2009, 09:41 PM
Dick i reckon 40-45m casts with 100lb leader beats Chris and i hands down with our figures. I wonder how far a bc can cast 100lb leaders?
I reckon with your gear that a 40-45m cast is better than what we have done with our lighter setups and i rate it better than a 55m-60m + cast. Lots of bang for your buck as well with your combo coming in well under the thousand dollar mark!:D
I reckon you would only need casts that long over your way if you wanted to pepper the crocs on the opposite side of the bank:D
Cheers Lyndon.
Dick Pasfield
10-07-2009, 09:41 PM
Why don't we just measure something else to decide on the winner?
I was speaking to someone about this the other day. Within reason, two ways to benchmark your gear and how you are able to use it would be - time it take to get a fish to the boat (not just a one of) and how your body pulls up from a full day on the job.
SeekingBarradise
10-07-2009, 10:05 PM
........................
SeekingBarradise
10-07-2009, 10:10 PM
To get really scientific and compare apples to apples I'll try to get hold of an S10 and put it up against the B10. Same line, leader and lure, so it should give an indication of what gets further. Then again, it will only prove it for the way I cast and the results really won't mean squat for anyone else. If you prefer to use baitcast gear, use it, if you prefer threadline, use that. There are only a very small minority of anglers who will judge you for what you prefer. It's a tiny minority actually and it doesn't really matter. Why don't we just measure something else to decide on the winner?
Hi Dale it's not a comp mate that was never the intention. It's just a sure way to get some real figures instead of battling on here with words with no actions to back up the words.
As distance is hard to judge on the water i really do think a lot of the guys i know actually don't know how far or short their lures are travelling. What if they are buying $400-$500+ rods that are getting matched by $100 outfits? I would want to know & we have a chance to all get together, share some info and help each other out with some data instead of us buying another 100 rods, making mistakes along the way that we didn't need to with some help from fellow Ausfishers.
To get rid of conjecture (words on net) it was simple, just put up a task that needed action and some data so we didn't have to rely on opinion. Nothing wrong with that. That's all. To think it's a comp is nowhere near the reason for the suggestion, and i don't care if no other results are posted, but i am interested to learn how other peoples spin setups go as this is what the thread was set up for. To learn about spin setups.
After meeting at the sweetwater m&g and agreeing not to hold the casting comp you know my views there as i get on well with a few of the same guys you get on with. Just learning something each day is comp enough for me.
In fact hats off to Chris for atleast trying to quantify his work with some raw data, atleast it gets away from opinion. I predict as i get more injuries and older that my casting will lose over 10-15m and that's fine as i don't have any goals to cast more than everyone, already achieved what i wanted. At 60-70 years old casting high 30's to 40m will be more than fine with me while watching primary schoolers beat me:D
UPDATE: Sorry Dale i thought you were asking me that question mate but you are not. No worries here, all good, have a great trip.:D
Cheers Lyndon:D
Dick Pasfield
10-07-2009, 10:26 PM
Dick i reckon 40-45m casts with 100lb leader beats Chris and i hands down with our figures. I wonder how far a bc can cast 100lb leaders?
I'm not sure about that one yet Lyndon, been ruminating on why you all mention the leader as a critical component. Is that because your leader and knot is long enough to end up through the runners and maybe even onto the spool a tad. I ask because my leaders are nearly always less than a metre and sit beyond the tip, only the double knot touches a runner. ??????
Dick, most I know use a standad rig down here in the sticks of a rod length of leader, generally 50 to 80, so additional friction thru the guides of leader and knot will shorten the cast lengths. Leader lengths tend to shorten up as the day goes on with lure changes, fish chafe etc. I was speaking to Trev one morning, and he mentioned shortening up the leader when using SP's on shy fish (as has been the case lately) in order to minimize stretch/delay time in registering a knock and angler reaction. Another other option here is fishing "down the line", again minimizing any delay time in registering some piscatorial interest at the business end.
I gather that with a meter of so of leader and lure off your rod tip, your casting style is a bit pendulum in action, for lack of a better word, it would certainly give more length than a punch cast on a short hanging leader, but I'd be ducking for cover in my 4 meter tinny if my mate was doing that, and I reckon we would be spending a bit of time in the trees fishing for possums as well, the above water structue can be a bit daunting at times. In saying that, when Im hanging off the open points, I use a similar technique as yours, more free hanging leader ouside the guides.
Dick i reckon 40-45m casts with 100lb leader beats Chris and i hands down with our figures. I wonder how far a bc can cast 100lb leaders?
I reckon with your gear that a 40-45m cast is better than what we have done with our lighter setups and i rate it better than a 55m-60m + cast. Lots of bang for your buck as well with your combo coming in well under the thousand dollar mark!:D
I reckon you would only need casts that long over your way if you wanted to pepper the crocs on the opposite side of the bank:D
Cheers Lyndon.
Hi Lyndon
Firstly on the distance thingy comparison ........ The playing field was pretty level (excuse the pun) ..... both rods (BC =Samurai 451 + Daiwa HLC Zillion + 30lb Nitlon + 3ft , 80lb Tough trace leader $1050) & (Spin Daiwa Certate 3000 + Berkley Diablo 7ft 6-10kg + 20lb Diawa Sensor Tournament + 3 ft 80lb Tough trace $750) - Reels were spooled to around 80% of maximum (would have preferred 90%) These outfits could be used to blast out 130mm Slick rigs during a point / Bay casting session Which is the only time I'm looking to max out casts - generally ...... but they are fair dinkum barra set ups
My casting style is quite compact - Developed while fishing for barra & not wanting to pin my mate while using a extra long dropper ( Its not surf casting ;) )
Lure of choice (Tango Dancer) is an aero dynamic lure ...... so I know my distances were maximum with only a 10knot cross wind at the time
For the point of the exercise ..... I achieved what I set out to do & That was hand on heart - this is the best I can do ( & not a gestimate)
Other points were that my accuracy with the BC was considerably better with a cross wind ......... I needed to drive my top hand (wrist) with the spin gear to flatten the trajectory ..... which then impeded the distance obtained (around 40M)
Now I know I'm much more comfortable with a BC than spin rod ........ but I also know that a spin rod offers another string to the bow & so my pursuit will continue........... However at this stage particularly after yesterdays session in 20-25 knot winds at Mondy - The BC is still leaps & bounds ahead ( with the exception of ultralight presentations.)
Chris
I'm not sure about that one yet Lyndon, been ruminating on why you all mention the leader as a critical component. Is that because your leader and knot is long enough to end up through the runners and maybe even onto the spool a tad. I ask because my leaders are nearly always less than a metre and sit beyond the tip, only the double knot touches a runner. ??????
Short leaders would be a godsend & I'd love to fish 1 ft leaders - The trouble is the with all the structure we fish with big rampaging barra ...... I want to know that when I free spool a fish that makes it to a tree ( usually where they stop & wait) I want that leader & not the line rubbing on that tree ( I only fish 30lb & even 20lb braid) ....... The exception woud be fishing a placcy / frog through weed where using a short leader & 20lb braid would assist the braid slicing through any weed on a run.
Chris
Dick Pasfield
11-07-2009, 09:53 AM
Was generalising a bit with the leader length, for casting its under the metre, about 60cm. I'll chew it down a bit over the day and then replace it, I've noted however you chew through it much faster on plastics.
Not cleaned up anyone in the boat, nor has my kids on the same rig, although they've got close at times and the possums don't hang in the canopy, the crocs gobbled them all up thinking they were fruit bats;)
The shorter leader length I use seems to be fine in the timber, most is layed down in a river, following there seems a mite difficult, the idea is to keep them from going there in the first place by trickery or bludgeondry. One spot can be tough (depending on what the the wet season delivers in terms of timber) That spot I've trolled with about three to four metres of leader, its paid off a couple of times on big fish. this year that spot seems to be a little cleared, haven't used a big leader yet.
Line is 20 -30lb fireline, perhaps a bit more abrasive resistance in that to others???
Edit: just a clarification on the use of the extra long leader; the location is just down from the junction of two rivers. A lot of debris is deposited after the wet on the bottom that cant be seen from the surface. When a fish does a right angle turn there's a chance the line will get hung up on one of the many projections metres behind the fish. The extra leader length in these cases allows me to get on top and with the benefit of having the leader a couple of turns of the reel work harder on the timber to free the fish.
Tropicaltrout
11-07-2009, 10:27 AM
Just one thing that pops to mind mechenics of the idividual, I know from my sporting background that certain make ups of different blokes allows different outcomes, for exsample what lyndon was saying about a youngster out throwing a ball to that of a older fella... This is very true the projectile of a throw is all down to a smooth delivery, this should also occur in a cast to some extent. As I said I use a longer butted rod for this... Does it stop there what else does the rod you use offer more then just a cast I personally think the cast is somewhat the start of the equation, the ability to use it through the recovery and they way it presents you lure is also a big factor.
The lure is in the water my rod is resonably short and not as heavy as most on here seen to use but it offers me a slower presintation due to as I twitch the lure placcy it does not react as quick nore does it move as jurky, it seems to be that second slower retrive?
Other then that when a fish it hooked and at the boat I can use the extra butt length as a great shock absorber by dropping my hands tyo the end thus gives me a shorter line lenght between me and the fish ( I fish solo a bit hence how i picked this up) and also if the fish should run there is less friction due to more flex and looser wrist position, and if it should run a bit heavier I can once again choke up.
Jeremy87
11-07-2009, 11:02 AM
I would find it interesting to see the different distances aquired from different casting techniques. I do not adopt the same casting technique every time in every condition. For example i tend to flick cast when trying to attain accurracy at mid distance but extned the length of the casting movement arc as distance increases. When i want to go purely for distance i hang the lure and rod behind me (no back cast as such) and launch the lure straight over my shoulder. It would be interesting see the difference in distances attained by different casting styles
Jeremy87
11-07-2009, 03:35 PM
Tried two rods in the backyard both with the stella 20lb sunline pe 40lb leader and a dehooked tango dancer. 1st rod 6ft gary howards samuari nv7, flick casting max casting distance 46m avarage just over 40m. Roll casting (for lack of a better name) around the low 40's. Second rod daiwa advantage dredback 7ft 10-17lb. Casting distance roughly the same for the two styles max cast was 48m flick casting. casting in my backyard ment i was not able to get the height that i wanted due to trees or fully lay into the cast properly. i would say that unrestricted distances would be closer to the 50 mark. I found it interesting how the shorter rod performed just as well, the stiffer more responsive graphite defineately felt like it transferred energy better than the daiwa. These rods are both relatively cheap, it would be interesting how they shape up to a more expensive rod with sic guides etc. Another note is while the flick cast generates more distance the skill and effort required to do so is considerably more than a roll cast. For newbies or extended periods it is probably the more ideal casting method.
Steve B
12-07-2009, 08:43 AM
I'm not sure about that one yet Lyndon, been ruminating on why you all mention the leader as a critical component. Is that because your leader and knot is long enough to end up through the runners and maybe even onto the spool a tad. I ask because my leaders are nearly always less than a metre and sit beyond the tip, only the double knot touches a runner. ??????
Yep agree Dick, I only run 40cm max leader...right down to 20cm after lure changes!!! then I retie.
Once again ...... I tried another spin combo over the weekend & I'm still not convinced that a spin combo offers any true casting advantage ........ & certainly not a tool I would be choosing to twitch a HB lure :(
Chris
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
13-07-2009, 07:34 AM
Nagg,
That is fine mate, you don't need to be convinced, nor do you need to have to find any reason that suits your mind set. For others, the answer is easier to find. A lot of this comes down to you, your preference; your fishing style. There are plenty of HB's and techniques that I don't enjoy working on a spin outfit either, but plenty that are fine. Both tackle choices have their spot on a fishing boat, be it reef or barra. The spin takes over where ultra small/light lures are fished, or where simplistic casting methods are required to attain a suitable cast length, or for max cast length............not to briefly mention again the essential need for speed on hooked fish. Why do bream anglers mainly use spin outfits to cast their tiny presentations? Why don't we see baitcasters as a trend here? This is just a guess, but maybe you haven't fished ultra tiny barra lures yet, hence why you find baitcasting equipment more suitable. With heavy lures, yea, i'd nearly match cast length with my baitcasters and spin outfits, but when you scale down, the real game begins.
Johnny
Nagg,
That is fine mate, you don't need to be convinced, nor do you need to have to find any reason that suits your mind set. For others, the answer is easier to find. A lot of this comes down to you, your preference; your fishing style. There are plenty of HB's and techniques that I don't enjoy working on a spin outfit either, but plenty that are fine. Both tackle choices have their spot on a fishing boat, be it reef or barra. The spin takes over where ultra small/light lures are fished, or where simplistic casting methods are required to attain a suitable cast length, or for max cast length............not to briefly mention again the essential need for speed on hooked fish. Why do bream anglers mainly use spin outfits to cast their tiny presentations? Why don't we see baitcasters as a trend here? This is just a guess, but maybe you haven't fished ultra tiny barra lures yet, hence why you find baitcasting equipment more suitable. With heavy lures, yea, i'd nearly match cast length with my baitcasters and spin outfits, but when you scale down, the real game begins.
Johnny
Hi Johnny
You probably didn't know ..... but lurecasting for bream has been my staple form of fishing for the last 3 years ....... All spin gear 2-3kg line (3g HBs & 1/32 jig heads) - not a baitcaster to be seen.
I dont know what you consider a ultra light presentation in barra fishing - but I've certainly gone down to 4" hollowbellys on unweighted worm hooks ..... Though not with my standard barra gear - I use my bass baitcast gear ( I had some success during the ABT tour using this gear in the pressured environment).
Speed ..... yep , when a fish swims toward you - you cant have enough.
I think most of us would agree that all barra outfits are a compromise in one way or another ........ though with a trend that is moving toward barra spin tackle - I'm left scratching my head :-/ & from the rods I have used or seen used - They seem to be limited in their versatility ...... due to the blank design ( a snapper rod makes for a limited barra rod - & thats what most people are using)........... I've now used / tried the most popular barra spin stick (Egrell & Bear S10) on 4 occasions - & while it makes for a nice point casting placcy rod ....... Well :-/ - I'm still waiting for someone to hand me a spin rod & say - "This is the ducks nuts for barra!" ...... I reckon I'll be waiting a long time;)
Chris
SeekingBarradise
13-07-2009, 09:41 AM
If you used a bass bc on barra for worm hooked hollow bellies why don't you use bass spin setups on barra if you aren't happy with barra spin setups? This would be a fair trial. These setups cast bream gear pretty well hey?
There is some footage of Motty catching barra on these outfits with i think 14lb line and catching Barra on spinner baits.
Don't argue, just try your bass spin setups on barra next time and see how they go. I'm sure you already have. If they worked well just use them on barra and you now have your barra spin setup. Job done.
You might have tried 50 bc combo's in your life but how many specific barra combos for spin have you tried? If the ratio is 90% to 10% it'shardly a fair amount of research and opinion would be much higher than research.
As a mostly self judged sport maybe it's time for you to get on a boat and get on the water with some of the better fisho's on the net or those that never get on the net. People you haven't fished with. Ask them to go to town on your entire game. At the moment you are judging yourself, but who says you are right?
Then you will be exposed to people that are better fisho's than you and 10 times better than me. Maybe we could learn a bit. I see knowledge as the main thing you are seeking here, if the bc v spin question is a genuine open learning question asked without your mind already made up.
Maybe you have maxed out the ability to learn from the net, now it's time for 20 years of face to face in person and not self judging advice. Time to get some other ideas in person from others that are better fisho's than you and i mate. At the end of the day it's a good opportunity to learn and not everything in life is free, nor should it be. With the invention of the net these guys have never been closer to us or more approachable. Through the net we can meet people who we would never see or hear of throughout the course of our lives. A great opportunity.:D
The choice to stay on the net and sift for free without face to face learning would at times be seen as sitting in the comfort zone and it could go on for decades without finding out what we don't know. In any organised sport the first thing you do it test for weakness. Then develop a plan to improve them. Then we can start to formulate a organised plan to start a long journey down the road to improve our weakest areas while improving our strengths as well. This should be fun Chris. For this to happen a couple of things are needed.
1. Ego has to go as it is the biggest road block to learning.:D
2. Listening and a open mind are needed.:D
3. Action rather than words are needed.:D
I'm not talking about being the best guide in the world, best tournament guru, i'm just typing this as a learning solution/suggestion we can all use to enjoy fishing and learning over a lifetime no matter what level we are at. No comp ranking needed, guide ranking, social ranking or Barra Bench Press ranking etc. Just some ideas that might be helpfull to learn from.
So in summary you have found that out of all the rods and spin reels ever made on earth, there are no really good barramundi spin rod and reel setups?:-/
I reckon your current strategy is too reliant on the net which in reality could only be less than 1% of the whole equation in Barramundi Fishing & Learning.:D
Cheers Lyndon.:D
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
13-07-2009, 09:57 AM
Why do bream anglers mainly use spin outfits to cast their tiny presentations? Why don't we see baitcasters as a trend here?
Nagg, I read/ peruse most of the mixed stuff you write, and yes I am aware of your bream history, hence the questions I asked, above.
A 4 inch hollow belly, even unweighted is still quite a large presentation in the book of small lures and small food sources in barra lakes and rivers. As passed on earlier, you have lots more to experience in the barra world, and the chapter of small, light barra lures is one you will/may one day step into. When you do, I'd bet $ you will be doing it with spin.
I don't think the trend is moving toward spin tackle at all, nor as an answer to all problems, but it has been highlighted that it has a place in the form.
If you think most people are using snapper rods for barra and you find that to be a bad idea, then maybe you shouldn't follow that pattern- and migrate down your own path, and it's easy to see, your path is baitcast. As far as versatility goes, I really don't see where you are going with that one, as both spin and baitcast will present the same scenario. A good angler will make the most and adapt with whatever tools he has to use. There are plenty of outfits in the spin world that are great lake fishing tools. Maybe you are too fussy, or looking for something that will catch fish on its own, or searching for something, that in your own eyes, really isnt there. No doubt you would pick up my personal and charter spin tackle and disregard it as not being suitable to your needs, but if what they have done for me and my clients over the last few years is anything to measure suitability by, then they have filled that gap nicely. I really cannot see why you keep going down the road of 'spin tackle not offering any real advantage'.
Throw a basic answer to the two early questions and see where you end up.
Johnny
Hi Lyndon & Johnny
This could be a long winded response ...... so here goes
* Firstly I'm pretty open minded when it comes to fishing ( & certainly when it comes to barra) - It is a steep learning curve but mine is one based on trial & error in combination with the net , face to face & asking questions - listening! .... I'm putting more time on the water & fishing with more people ..... some talented in barra (no doubt when the time is right - I'll pay the cash to spend time on the water with some barra legend)
It may sound like I'm dismissive of spin gear :rolleyes: but I'm not (completely) - otherwise I wouldn't have spent some hard earned looking to come up with a suitable outfit ....... not to please anyone else ! or to follow - just to add another option............ & if there is any notion that this is not the case :o Now while going through this process , I continually come across issues that in my mind detract from the chosen task.
These are some .... that I have noticed
*Grip configuration .. Often too big ( great for casting not so for working a lure or placcy)
*Butt section too long The rod bangs the inside of a forearm on any downward twitch ..... you need to twitch in an upward or side way stroke to work a hard body.
The long butt does make for efficient long casting ..... & comfortable fighting of a fish in an up & down situation.
* Short butt section .. These rods are usually heavier bream & bass rods which are matched to <2500 size reels & have tapers that are more suited to throwing small lures ..... not typical barra lures (even frogs)
Unfortunately fighting a decent barra on a short handle spin stick is pretty uncomfortable
*Blank tapers ... Tippy or too stiff ( what makes for a good light frog casting rod - often folds away when casting a typical HB or 110mm+ plastic & vice versa
*Rod lengths .... Efficient casting spin sticks (usually 7 ft) dont make for good tools in the timber
Overhanging trees :( 7ft rods & longer droppers are a pain.
Now clearly you can work around all of these issues & put up with a little discomfort ....... but why should you ::)
Sure I can use a heavier bass spin outfit & catch barra...... or a stump puller to do the same
I certainly could build my own spin stick that suits my fussy requirements....... & maybe I will - but I wont continue to use an outfit that does not feel right (I'm honest to myself) ....... & yes if Johnny handed me his charter special outfit - & it didn't feel the goods ..... I'll say it ( SteveB & I had this type of conversation yesterday after I had the use of his latest acquisition spin outfit over the past few days)
To answer your question Lyndon - What I have seen in the way of off the shelf rods ( & what is often chosen) -leaves a lot to be desired (IMO) when it comes to barra ....... sure they will catch fish! ( I reckon if I could cast the buggers - I could catch barra on an alvey too ;) ) How many spin outfits have I tried ..... I've probably held dozens & used another dozen outside of what I have owned.
by comparison most people comment positively about my baitcast outfits ...... they not only do the job - they do it the way I want them too 8-) .
Finally ..... I do think there is a trend toward spin rods ( how many people have added a spin rod to their arsenal since THE FISHING DVD #11::) ..... how many used a spin rod for barra 3 years ago ?
This is all good stuff & makes for a great discussion
Chris
aussiebasser
13-07-2009, 12:53 PM
..... how many used a spin rod for barra 3 years ago ?
Chris
Oooh, oooh, me, I did, I did, what do I win?
And I have no bloody idea why you think you have to go to a 7' rod either.
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
13-07-2009, 12:53 PM
The trend is in peoples' minds to realise the opportunity and place exists to own a spin outfit and use one for tasks suited to the question being asked in lakes. I don't think that trend is overtaking the scene at all. Many things have occurred in the southern barra scene that are new to many anglers, but are not to those with years of experience. The climb is huge, possibilities and new learnings will continue for years for most anglers who are new to the scene. It is impossible to do a thorough barra apprenticeship in under ten years without external help, even then, chapters get missed.
Maybe you haven't spoken to yourself deep inside and realised what it is you really want, because basically what I have read of yours tells me what you want. I see enough information in your writings to conclude that you-
* want a spin outfit that will cast further- your casting technique may need alignment also.
* you have diagnosed the areas in rod design which are a help and a hinderance.
* you have labeled yourself as a favour for baitcast, ergonomically, which will block your spin advancement in some way.
* You probably won't find your desired tool on the shelf in store, so it is up to you to now build, or get built a rod to your apparent requirements. I have several rods built for purpose applications that no one else has- they suit our style, our need, our arm length. I'm sure you will do the same if you want to fill a few gaps and advance your fishing.
If it's length you are after, I just threw 70 metres for self verification, on a school oval this morning with my lake spin tackle to give you some idea of what is achievable. With an Awoonga tail wind, I'd reckon 80 metres plus would be possible. (Tango- 20 lb braid.)
I think you realise the answer to the questions earlier, so maybe it is time to work on bream tactics and apply that to an upscaled fishery. The trick is to discover what actually needs upscaling.
I think the key in this discussion is to have a reel spool diameter that isn't too large that allows freedom of movement of line via the guides. A 3000 size is close to suitable for many lake applications.
Johnny
Oooh, oooh, me, I did, I did, what do I win?
And I have no bloody idea why you think you have to go to a 7' rod either.
No prize - Sorry AB:(
7 ft is an efficient blank length when you consider the placement of the reel & ideal blank seat for punching out typical plastics ...... sure you can go shorter - no dramas! I used one over the weekend
Chris
The trend is in peoples' minds to realise the opportunity and place exists to own a spin outfit and use one for tasks suited to the question being asked in lakes. I don't think that trend is overtaking the scene at all. Many things have occurred in the southern barra scene that are new to many anglers, but are not to those with years of experience. The climb is huge, possibilities and new learnings will continue for years for most anglers who are new to the scene. It is impossible to do a thorough barra apprenticeship in under ten years without external help, even then, chapters get missed.
Maybe you haven't spoken to yourself deep inside and realised what it is you really want, because basically what I have read of yours tells me what you want. I see enough information in your writings to conclude that you-
* want a spin outfit that will cast further- your casting technique may need alignment also.
* you have diagnosed the areas in rod design which are a help and a hinderance.
* you have labeled yourself as a favour for baitcast, ergonomically, which will block your spin advancement in some way.
* You probably won't find your desired tool on the shelf in store, so it is up to you to now build, or get built a rod to your apparent requirements. I have several rods built for purpose applications that no one else has- they suit our style, our need, our arm length. I'm sure you will do the same if you want to fill a few gaps and advance your fishing.
If it's length you are after, I just threw 70 metres for self verification, on a school oval this morning with my lake spin tackle to give you some idea of what is achievable. With an Awoonga tail wind, I'd reckon 80 metres plus would be possible. (Tango- 20 lb braid.)
I think you realise the answer to the questions earlier, so maybe it is time to work on bream tactics and apply that to an upscaled fishery. The trick is to discover what actually needs upscaling.
I think the key in this discussion is to have a reel spool diameter that isn't too large that allows freedom of movement of line via the guides. A 3000 size is close to suitable for many lake applications.
Johnny
Totally agree on the 3000 size reel ( I have a Certate 3000) spool diameter needs to also be well matched with the stripper guide.
Out of curiosity .....70M cast ..... did you do that from a stationary position & with a punch type cast ? or a longer drop of the leader & rounder wound up beach casting motion:-/
Chris
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
13-07-2009, 05:26 PM
*One step forward, unloaded the rod just after transferring body weight to the front foot. The leader knots were all in the guides. The drop length was about 60cm. The rod was stationary behind me before I started.
aussiebasser
13-07-2009, 05:51 PM
No prize - Sorry AB:(
7 ft is an efficient blank length when you consider the placement of the reel & ideal blank seat for punching out typical plastics ...... sure you can go shorter - no dramas! I used one over the weekend
Chris
Weren't you saying that the 7 footer is too long to work the lure properly though? My first barra/cod spin rod was a 665 GL3 Blank. You could park your boat 10' closer to where you're fishing and utilise a shorter rod to work your lure efficiently, however I'm starting to think that when you ask questions you don't really want answers.
leelee
13-07-2009, 06:34 PM
To set the record straight I used a 3500hd Certate loaded with 30 braid on a Daiwa Saltwater 10-17lb stick and a Certate 2500r custom on a Daiwa Saltwater 8-14lb stick.
I think it was fine to use and have never had an issues using gear of that weight casting all day for all different species I have used this gear for.
Cheers
Lee
Jeremy87
13-07-2009, 06:35 PM
*One step forward, unloaded the rod just after transferring body weight to the front foot. The leader knots were all in the guides. The drop length was about 60cm. The rod was stationary behind me before I started.
I do the same cast when slug chucking. I couldn't do it properly in my yard cause i kept getting caught up in the trees lol. 70 metres hey, well i guess your the right frame for it.
Casting with the wind spin would defineately have the upper hand. Launch the lure up in the air and let the wind carry it.
The big question is not how far you can cast but how far do you need to cast?
Weren't you saying that the 7 footer is too long to work the lure properly though? My first barra/cod spin rod was a 665 GL3 Blank. You could park your boat 10' closer to where you're fishing and utilise a shorter rod to work your lure efficiently, however I'm starting to think that when you ask questions you don't really want answers.
Thats right AB ...... I reckon a 7ft rod casts well - but is a bugger to comfortably work a lure. ( nice for rolling a placcy)
My current BC point casting rod is a 7'1" GLX loomis ....... It can cast from 100mm slick rigs up to 6" Storm shads.
This really wasn't about which outfit casts further - I just wanted to varify what I can / cant do .
As for not wanting answers - well you certainly dont know me !
Parking a boat 10M closer ::) If I want to fish the back of a shallow bay without spooking fish - .... The last thing I want to do is go in closer:(
Chris
SQUIDDA
13-07-2009, 07:39 PM
Hi Lyndon & Johnny
This could be a long winded response ...... so here goes
* Firstly I'm pretty open minded when it comes to fishing ( & certainly when it comes to barra) - It is a steep learning curve but mine is one based on trial & error in combination with the net , face to face & asking questions - listening! .... I'm putting more time on the water & fishing with more people ..... some talented in barra (no doubt when the time is right - I'll pay the cash to spend time on the water with some barra legend)
It may sound like I'm dismissive of spin gear :rolleyes: but I'm not (completely) - otherwise I wouldn't have spent some hard earned looking to come up with a suitable outfit ....... not to please anyone else ! or to follow - just to add another option............ & if there is any notion that this is not the case :o Now while going through this process , I continually come across issues that in my mind detract from the chosen task.
These are some .... that I have noticed
*Grip configuration .. Often too big ( great for casting not so for working a lure or placcy)
*Butt section too long The rod bangs the inside of a forearm on any downward twitch ..... you need to twitch in an upward or side way stroke to work a hard body.
The long butt does make for efficient long casting ..... & comfortable fighting of a fish in an up & down situation.
* Short butt section .. These rods are usually heavier bream & bass rods which are matched to <2500 size reels & have tapers that are more suited to throwing small lures ..... not typical barra lures (even frogs)
Unfortunately fighting a decent barra on a short handle spin stick is pretty uncomfortable
*Blank tapers ... Tippy or too stiff ( what makes for a good light frog casting rod - often folds away when casting a typical HB or 110mm+ plastic & vice versa
*Rod lengths .... Efficient casting spin sticks (usually 7 ft) dont make for good tools in the timber
Overhanging trees :( 7ft rods & longer droppers are a pain.
Now clearly you can work around all of these issues & put up with a little discomfort ....... but why should you ::)
Sure I can use a heavier bass spin outfit & catch barra...... or a stump puller to do the same
I certainly could build my own spin stick that suits my fussy requirements....... & maybe I will - but I wont continue to use an outfit that does not feel right (I'm honest to myself) ....... & yes if Johnny handed me his charter special outfit - & it didn't feel the goods ..... I'll say it ( SteveB & I had this type of conversation yesterday after I had the use of his latest acquisition spin outfit over the past few days)
To answer your question Lyndon - What I have seen in the way of off the shelf rods ( & what is often chosen) -leaves a lot to be desired (IMO) when it comes to barra ....... sure they will catch fish! ( I reckon if I could cast the buggers - I could catch barra on an alvey too ;) ) How many spin outfits have I tried ..... I've probably held dozens & used another dozen outside of what I have owned.
by comparison most people comment positively about my baitcast outfits ...... they not only do the job - they do it the way I want them too 8-) .
Finally ..... I do think there is a trend toward spin rods ( how many people have added a spin rod to their arsenal since THE FISHING DVD #11::) ..... how many used a spin rod for barra 3 years ago ?
This is all good stuff & makes for a great discussion
Chris
If you can not cast an Alvey then you will probably struggle with distance casting a spin rod.Alveys are great tools to learn how to cast long distances.But i think you should stick with your baitcasters.If its not broke dont fix it hey.;D Now think of a new post and except that spin gear has a place in barra fishing.8-)
If you can not cast an Alvey then you will probably struggle with distance casting a spin rod.Alveys are great tools to learn how to cast long distances.But i think you should stick with your baitcasters.If its not broke dont fix it hey.;D Now think of a new post and except that spin gear has a place in barra fishing.8-)
Yeh ..... shocking at casting an alvey :(
Its not a case of its not broke - & I certainly could happily fish a baitcaster till the cows come home ........ However I do feel that a spin outfit could be useful in certain situations ( light presentations mainly)
Its during my search that I have struggled to find my happy balance. ......... never mind .
Chris
leelee
13-07-2009, 08:32 PM
Keep looking mate.
It took me 7 months to find the prefect baitcasting rod that suited my style of fishing, not someone elses. Thats the key I think
Personally I think if you can't find it on the shelf then get it made, then you can specify exactly what you want and a good rod builder will make you an excellent spin rod for barra.
The next big question is what reel are you going to use. I woudl suggest a 2500r Certate custom ;D
Cheers
Lee
Keep looking mate.
It took me 7 months to find the prefect baitcasting rod that suited my style of fishing, not someone elses. Thats the key I think
Personally I think if you can't find it on the shelf then get it made, then you can specify exactly what you want and a good rod builder will make you an excellent spin rod for barra.
The next big question is what reel are you going to use. I woudl suggest a 2500r Certate custom ;D
Cheers
Lee
Maybe I could just get one of those bling handles & knob for my 3000 :P
I think it will be a build job
Chris
leelee
13-07-2009, 09:13 PM
Maybe I could just get one of those bling handles & knob for my 3000 :P
I think it will be a build job
Chris
Keep the 3000 and get a 2500r and get 2 spin rods custom made.
When you get 1 made you will want another so you don't have to tie lures onto the new rod all the time;D
Cheers
Lee
PaulMark
13-07-2009, 09:26 PM
Hi all,well taking everyones comments and giving it some thought,thanks Lyndon.I've come up with a spin set up that I suppose is a bit of a compromise given present fiscal policy.I have a Avaya 7'spin rod rated to 8kg and after some deliberation have teamed it with a Daiwa Excelor 4000.The 4000 hopefully won't be to much of a problem with long periods of casting,had a run in the back yard and first up seems ok.I'll have to use it for other scenarios as well as Barra.I'm going to put the markers down the yard on the weekend,will keep you posted on results.Just a quickie 30lb braid seems to be the line of choice for most of you guys,what length leader? I usually have the leader just long enough so the knot doesn't get into the guides as I worry about damaging the guides and shortening the length of the cast.Also,what knot do you favour?I use the double uni mainly because in the heat of battle its the quickest one I can do even if its not the best one for the job.
Paulo
SeekingBarradise
13-07-2009, 10:02 PM
Another double post.
SeekingBarradise
13-07-2009, 10:03 PM
How many people were using spin a couple of years ago? Or should the question be " How many people were using baitcasters only, because their friends were or they were brainwashed by advertising, instead of going out and trialling both and making their own minds up?"
Probably a couple of hundred thousand fisho's both serious, part timers and social fisho's use spin gear. The only thing is they go un-noticed as they are outside the small impoundment scene we might have some contact with, that's all. Or maybe they were snobbed or seen as behind the times for using spin. Maybe they are not noticed at all.
Live, spend time fishing or travelling above the Tropic of Capricorn or even better the line from Cairns to Broom and you see plenty of spin setups. The whole world of tactical and technical development isnt' all invented in the southern impoundment barra scene or just in the tournament minded or on the net.
Shitloads of good work gets done with a minimum of fuss across hundreds of thousands of barra captures, it's just that in the SEQ we hear mostly about the impoundment scene with only a scattering of northern reports in 2-3 mags, which just scratches the surface. Many between the ages of 40ish to 80+ don't use the net so we never hear of their experiences. If people are just getting in to spin now maybe it's just a form of catching up or waking up. Having a second opinion at hand might just be a smart idea.
By the way the difference between 44m and 70m is over 75 feet which is enough of a gap to drive about 5 trucks through. That's a big variance in setups and casting distance. This might provide some food for thought.:D
Cheers Lyndon.
SeekingBarradise
13-07-2009, 10:42 PM
Chris (Naggs) Quotes
*Grip configuration .. Often too big ( great for casting not so for working a lure or placcy)
I haven't heard this one before. In fact i know guys that make the grips bigger as they know a bit about sport. If hands were smaller than most 5 year olds i could see the point, but then i know a few 5 year olds that use full size tennis racquets.
This sounds way off the mark.
*Butt section too long The rod bangs the inside of a forearm on any downward twitch ..... You need to twitch in an upward or side way stroke to work a hard body.
Who made downward twitching the be all and end all anyway, the tv guys? Who says its fool proof? Who says it's the best technique? For some guys this technique in their current setup is a weak link. They haven' worked it out yet. I wonder how many years it will take?
The long butt does make for efficient long casting ..... & comfortable fighting of a fish in an up & down situation. Yes very strong and stable. Let me see efficient long casting, now wouldn't anyone going fishing be happy with that? Then if you handed them a comfortable fish fighting combo 'd reckon they would be pretty happy with that. So why isn't spin good enough for you?:)
* Short butt section .. These rods are usually heavier bream & bass rods which are matched to <2500 size reels & have tapers that are more suited to throwing small lures ..... Not typical barra lures (even frogs) Your kidding arent' you? Are you saying these bream and bass rods can't cast frogs?
Unfortunately fighting a decent barra on a short handle spin stick is pretty uncomfortable. It depends if the setup got you the hookup in the first place that you might not normally have raised e.g. if you couldn't throw ultra light frogs without getting in to trouble with the bc. Then you would be happy for any hookup and with gear worth over $500-$1000 i'd hope it could be used to land a barra. Rods aren't always bought for the sole purpose of fighting fish. Getting the strike and hookup might come first.:) Delivery also needs to be considered.
*Blank tapers ... Tippy or too stiff ( what makes for a good light frog casting rod - often folds away when casting a typical HB or 110mm+ plastic & vice versa
So you want a spin stick that can do everything, yet your baitaster can't do everything you need with the light stuff. Too picky i reckon.
(Folds away) Yep they fold the lure away 75 feet past your lure, or 5 semi trailers across. A rod that can cast frogs can and does cast lures over 55m as stated in page 2. Going around in circles here Chris.
You need to design that rod called " Perfection".:) Model number 75.:D
*Rod lengths .... Efficient casting spin sticks (usually 7 ft) dont make for good tools in the timber
Overhanging trees :( 7ft rods & longer droppers are a pain.
How many times on a barra dam do you really need to smash your boat through timber. Are all the fish only in the timber at any 1 time with say 30 000 barra in a dam?
Sit on your lean seat which will lower you by 2 feet. Problem solved!!! or get really good at casting, or maybe fish are also holding away from timber in many cases. Or get a shorter spin rod.:)
Arguements can be made for both sides. That was the point of the reply.
Good luck with the rod building and search for the perfect setup. Your baitcasters must be perferct if you are so picky with regards to spin.
Maybe your bc setups should be compared against some of the best on the net to see where they are really at. It could be another 75 feet which would make it 150 feet (Rod Model 75+75). Enough to drive a couple of aircraft carriers through :)
Just having a laugh Chris to lighten things up.:)
Cheers Lyndon.
flatzie
14-07-2009, 05:47 AM
What a read! More of the same old same old from a typical Nagg thread, just like the one he started up on trolling.
Nagg get yourself some therapy mate, do this. go out in a boat with a spin rod a troll all day!! Relax! LOL!!:D
99.9% of the fishing population are not represented here, most of them can go out and enjoy a day on the water and relax. How ever did people get on before all this gear was available? I remember going fishing and spending endless hours of total enjoyment as a kid catching Bobbys (Spangled Perch) with a stick of bamboo and a bit of 6lb line just tied on the end!!
All this hyper inquisition over styles and gear is way beyond me. Last year in a day I nailed 7 barra at Awoonga on a 95 dollar spin rod, total enjoyment! Who cares??
Lets just go fishing and enjoy ourselves.
Fishing also involves interaction with the great outdoors, the birdlife, sunsets, billy tea, chilly dawns, a coldie at 4pm, and your mates!
If you have your bum up and head down in a managerie of gear, stressing out whether your last cast reached the required distance etc, whether the rod bumped your arm etc, how can you possible enjoy a day out fishing?
::)
Flatzie
Chris (Naggs) Quotes
*Grip configuration .. Often too big ( great for casting not so for working a lure or placcy)
I haven't heard this one before. In fact i know guys that make the grips bigger as they know a bit about sport. If hands were smaller than most 5 year olds i could see the point, but then i know a few 5 year olds that use full size tennis racquets.
This sounds way off the mark.
*Butt section too long The rod bangs the inside of a forearm on any downward twitch ..... You need to twitch in an upward or side way stroke to work a hard body.
Who made downward twitching the be all and end all anyway, the tv guys? Who says its fool proof? Who says it's the best technique? For some guys this technique in their current setup is a weak link. They haven' worked it out yet. I wonder how many years it will take?
The long butt does make for efficient long casting ..... & comfortable fighting of a fish in an up & down situation. Yes very strong and stable. Let me see efficient long casting, now wouldn't anyone going fishing be happy with that? Then if you handed them a comfortable fish fighting combo 'd reckon they would be pretty happy with that. So why isn't spin good enough for you?:)
* Short butt section .. These rods are usually heavier bream & bass rods which are matched to <2500 size reels & have tapers that are more suited to throwing small lures ..... Not typical barra lures (even frogs) Your kidding arent' you? Are you saying these bream and bass rods can't cast frogs?
Unfortunately fighting a decent barra on a short handle spin stick is pretty uncomfortable. It depends if the setup got you the hookup in the first place that you might not normally have raised e.g. if you couldn't throw ultra light frogs without getting in to trouble with the bc. Then you would be happy for any hookup and with gear worth over $500-$1000 i'd hope it could be used to land a barra. Rods aren't always bought for the sole purpose of fighting fish. Getting the strike and hookup might come first.:) Delivery also needs to be considered.
*Blank tapers ... Tippy or too stiff ( what makes for a good light frog casting rod - often folds away when casting a typical HB or 110mm+ plastic & vice versa
So you want a spin stick that can do everything, yet your baitaster can't do everything you need with the light stuff. Too picky i reckon.
(Folds away) Yep they fold the lure away 75 feet past your lure, or 5 semi trailers across. A rod that can cast frogs can and does cast lures over 55m as stated in page 2. Going around in circles here Chris.
You need to design that rod called " Perfection".:) Model number 75.:D
*Rod lengths .... Efficient casting spin sticks (usually 7 ft) dont make for good tools in the timber
Overhanging trees :( 7ft rods & longer droppers are a pain.
How many times on a barra dam do you really need to smash your boat through timber. Are all the fish only in the timber at any 1 time with say 30 000 barra in a dam?
Sit on your lean seat which will lower you by 2 feet. Problem solved!!! or get really good at casting, or maybe fish are also holding away from timber in many cases. Or get a shorter spin rod.:)
Arguements can be made for both sides. That was the point of the reply.
Good luck with the rod building and search for the perfect setup. Your baitcasters must be perferct if you are so picky with regards to spin.
Maybe your bc setups should be compared against some of the best on the net to see where they are really at. It could be another 75 feet which would make it 150 feet (Rod Model 75+75). Enough to drive a couple of aircraft carriers through :)
Just having a laugh Chris to lighten things up.:)
Cheers Lyndon.
I'm not going to justify my comments here Lyndon ..... As all were based on what I have experienced .
Maybe we should have a fish together & talk about it while trying to catch a barra :P
Chris
PS .... One of my baitcasters can just about do it all :P
What a read! More of the same old same old from a typical Nagg thread, just like the one he started up on trolling.
Nagg get yourself some therapy mate, do this. go out in a boat with a spin rod a troll all day!! Relax! LOL!!:D
99.9% of the fishing population are not represented here, most of them can go out and enjoy a day on the water and relax. How ever did people get on before all this gear was available? I remember going fishing and spending endless hours of total enjoyment as a kid catching Bobbys (Spangled Perch) with a stick of bamboo and a bit of 6lb line just tied on the end!!
All this hyper inquisition over styles and gear is way beyond me. Last year in a day I nailed 7 barra at Awoonga on a 95 dollar spin rod, total enjoyment! Who cares??
Lets just go fishing and enjoy ourselves.
Fishing also involves interaction with the great outdoors, the birdlife, sunsets, billy tea, chilly dawns, a coldie at 4pm, and your mates!
If you have your bum up and head down in a managerie of gear, stressing out whether your last cast reached the required distance etc, whether the rod bumped your arm etc, how can you possible enjoy a day out fishing?
::)
Flatzie
Not all of us are just happy to just fish!!!!!!!
Some of us even take to the challenge of angling for barra ...... & catching them on a consistent basis ..... sitting idle & whistling the day away while watching the world go by is not going to achieve it
We try different things & techniques ....... & this is where the tackle discussions become interesting.
I like to tinker with my lures & tackle ........ If it doesn't feel right I wont use it - Its not unusual to see me spend a 16 hour day on a barra dam ..... so quality light , ergonomic rods & reels are important to me.
As for stressing out about it ....... just ask anyone who has fished with me - "any more chilled & I'd have icicles growing on me"
As for a Typical Nagg thread ..... if it promotes participation , thought & discussion ...... Well as far as I'm concerned its a good thread ! After all the freshwater chat was getting a bit dull.
:smiley_down: Now Flatzie ..... you can troll your way back to your lurking shadows:curtain: & wait for the next opportunity to add your valued input to the next topical thread ...... I can't wait ::)
darylive
14-07-2009, 08:52 AM
You guys;D
Come on now play nice ::).
There is a lot of good stuff here, a great thread.
Just a comment from the cheap seats ;).
If nothing else (and there is plenty in here) I am sure we can agree that everybody is different and my outfit might not suit you etc. As JM states in a profession where you are trying to cater for all sorts of punters you want something most people fell comfortable with, hence his collection of spin rods.
I respectfully submit there is a difference between comfortable / content and very pleased. This is where those with the means, who are keen enough try to improve on what they have to get the elusive perfect set up. I don't see that as a problem if you have the means to do it and credit to NAGG for trying. He may or may not find it. I am sure if he does we will all be interested. I am equally sure his set up would not suit every one else and let's be mindful that is not what he is striving for. The question as I interprete it was to seek feedback on spin gear for Barra having tried it but found a preference for BC when plenty are using spin. i.e. Am I missing somthing here? (am I right Chris)
Some interesting input from Lindon as always. Lindon you would be the first to recognise the same shoe is not going to suit every player even though they might all be on the same team playing the same game. A simple analagy but I think it fits. While there are some techniques we could all improve on regardless of gear choice and there is always room for improvement, individual physicalities and preferances are the reason we have different gear and I personally like to hear peoples prefrences and the reasons for them, although I may not always agree. Some mechanical effects are simply a matter of fact and that too is interesting and should be considered. But leverage depends not only on the length of the stick but the fuclcrum it is balanced on. :)
Take from this thread any information that helps or entertains you. Just because because your shoe doesn't feel comfortable on my foot doesn't mean it is not the best shoe for you. But if it is not comfortable on your foot consider another and maybe ask around as to what others use.
::)
Sometimes having considered all the proposals people agree to disagree. I think here we can all agree it is a worthy cause to try to improve and wise to seek input from others in the field, consider practical responses, acknowledge we are all different and be thankful for all these things.
Now it is too nice a day to be on the computer. Go fishing or at least casting in the paddock if you think it matters ;)
Steve B
14-07-2009, 09:45 AM
Daryl,
FINALLY - THANKYOU.
Pass on my thanks to whoever wrote that for you.;) :P
The good info from Lyndon, Chris, Johnny Mitch, Scotty on a variety of indepth aspects of spinf/BC, rods, reels, stances, actions et etc etc has pretty much been exausted until people ACTUALLY get on the water and test what they have or have not learnt here...simple.
INFOMATION AND FACTS....GOOD. Bring them on. Until then, let it all rest PLEASE. Its ruining what is a great thread for the folk wanting to learn and take a few more tiny steps forward in their learings....they now have a singnificantly increased amount of info to absorb and tinker with, not much more can be done now without on the water practice...(other than casting on a field...please continue to post them results...that is worthy of interest).
And anyone else that wants to come in with usless personal remarks or attacks can bugger off....yes we all enjoy being on the water, scenery, social relax, catch fish on XXX combo while having a beer.....been there, and WE DO that already...thats not in question in this thread. This is about futher advanced classes/info for those WHO WANT TO PARTICIPATE.
But, alas, I think its all been flogged until someone gets on the water.
just my opinion. Agree or not, I dont give a toss;D
Steve
Steve B
14-07-2009, 09:53 AM
Hi all,well taking everyones comments and giving it some thought,thanks Lyndon.I've come up with a spin set up that I suppose is a bit of a compromise given present fiscal policy.I have a Avaya 7'spin rod rated to 8kg and after some deliberation have teamed it with a Daiwa Excelor 4000.The 4000 hopefully won't be to much of a problem with long periods of casting,had a run in the back yard and first up seems ok.I'll have to use it for other scenarios as well as Barra.I'm going to put the markers down the yard on the weekend,will keep you posted on results.Just a quickie 30lb braid seems to be the line of choice for most of you guys,what length leader? I usually have the leader just long enough so the knot doesn't get into the guides as I worry about damaging the guides and shortening the length of the cast.Also,what knot do you favour?I use the double uni mainly because in the heat of battle its the quickest one I can do even if its not the best one for the job.
Paulo
Thats a nice looking combo paul, except the handle appears to be on the wrong side;) ;D
I like to use about 40cm of leader, I think others prefer it longer. I use the slim beauty knot...I havent had it fail, and it seems to slip through the runners with minimal fuss, noise or damage. Its pretty easy to tie too.
Cheers Steve
How many people were using spin a couple of years ago? Or should the question be " How many people were using baitcasters only, because their friends were or they were brainwashed by advertising, instead of going out and trialling both and making their own minds up?"
Probably a couple of hundred thousand fisho's both serious, part timers and social fisho's use spin gear. The only thing is they go un-noticed as they are outside the small impoundment scene we might have some contact with, that's all. Or maybe they were snobbed or seen as behind the times for using spin. Maybe they are not noticed at all.
Live, spend time fishing or travelling above the Tropic of Capricorn or even better the line from Cairns to Broom and you see plenty of spin setups. The whole world of tactical and technical development isnt' all invented in the southern impoundment barra scene or just in the tournament minded or on the net.
Shitloads of good work gets done with a minimum of fuss across hundreds of thousands of barra captures, it's just that in the SEQ we hear mostly about the impoundment scene with only a scattering of northern reports in 2-3 mags, which just scratches the surface. Many between the ages of 40ish to 80+ don't use the net so we never hear of their experiences. If people are just getting in to spin now maybe it's just a form of catching up or waking up. Having a second opinion at hand might just be a smart idea.
By the way the difference between 44m and 70m is over 75 feet which is enough of a gap to drive about 5 trucks through. That's a big variance in setups and casting distance. This might provide some food for thought.:D
Cheers Lyndon.
Hi Lyndon
Being a traveller .... & having fished the impoundments from Tinaroo down to Mondy ....... I've got to have a look at what fellow fishoes were using. Camp ground discussions often turned to tackle ( show & tells) ..... I particularly remember my first trip to Faust (Oct 06) & the discussion that took place one evening - Dave Hodge was there along with a few other knowledgeable anglers (I was a newby to impoundments- so I was oh so keen :ears: ) - I can tell you now , there was so many outfits dragged out & not a spin rod to be seen ( it was all about blacksheep & other millionaire derivatives , calcuttas & stump puller rods)
Lets not even talk about the gear that the mainstream fishing media was promoting as ideal impoundment barra tackle ::) ..... just look through your mags around the 03-06 circa
It was all about the reel with less emphasis on the rod
But how things have changed - now it would be unusual to not see a spin stick on a boat - + with the quality of todays small spin reels - there is no drama.
Sure people have used spin gear in impoundments since day 1 - but it would have been adapted from their normal fishing - As the fish grew the tackle was developed along the baitcaster platform .... beefed up (50lb Braid) - & away we went.....
Lyndon - I'm sure if you are honest with yourself - & not just go by the influence of others (or for the sake of the arguement) ....... you will agree that spin gear has really only entered the mainstream impoundment scene in recent years ....... thats why the likes of Miller , Egrell , Gary Howard etc have only started to add dedicated impoundment spin rods to their range in the last 12 months or so ......... & most of the large manufactures are yet to add them to their range ........ On the flip side dedicated impoundment bait cast rods have been available for years.
Ask yourself - Why did JM feel the need to get a couple of custom spin sticks made ;)
Chris
darylive
14-07-2009, 10:12 AM
Daryl,
FINALLY - THANKYOU.
Pass on my thanks to whoever wrote that for you.;) :P
And anyone else that wants to come in with usless personal remarks or attacks can bugger off....
just my opinion. Agree or not, I dont give a toss;D
Steve
Good on ya Steve,
I do some of my best work early in the day before the drinking hour ::)
I am currently on long service leave perhaps I should come up some time so we can put some of this theory into practice :D.
Daryl
Honors, Effective Speaking Trinity College of London. ;)
Who would have thought?
Well said Daryl & Steve
Time for me to pull my head in ...... (unfortunately I love a good discussion::) )
Go to the park to improve on my 46M with a spin rod ( without a run up;) )
Then develop that ideal barra spin rod :P ..... As per our discussion Steve
All in all ...... Its all good
time to find another controversial topic;) ;D
Chris
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
14-07-2009, 10:22 AM
Just to clarify
My customised spin and overhead sticks are for personal use- mainly salt and some fresh. Designed, or altered for specific jobs.
*off the shelf spin rods suit the other 50% of the fishing I do- charter and personal.
Cheers,
Johnny Mitch
leelee
14-07-2009, 10:28 AM
Have to agree with you there Daryl.
My gear works for me and I don't really care how other perceive or even like the feel of my outfits because they were chosen by ME for ME.
Being relatively new to the barra scene, but having a heap of experience in other forms or fishing, it has really surprised me how forth coming many anglers are in sharing ideas and experiences. I am always grateful for all the help I am given and would like to say a big thankyou to Steve_B, Nagg and F@xy as on the last trip up to Mondy i have once again learned something new
Never let it be said that there are not nice people in this sport.
Cheers
Lee
Dick Pasfield
14-07-2009, 11:20 AM
Lyndon - I'm sure if you are honest with yourself - & not just go by the influence of others (or for the sake of the argument) ....... You will agree that spin gear has really only entered the mainstream impoundment scene in recent years ....... Thats why the likes of Miller , Egrell , Gary Howard etc have only started to add dedicated impoundment spin rods to their range in the last 12 months or so ......... & most of the large manufactures are yet to add them to their range ........ On the flip side dedicated impoundment bait cast rods have been available for years.
Ask yourself - Why did JM feel the need to get a couple of custom spin sticks made http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/wink.gif
Can't ague with that, from an impoundment perspective but impoundment barramundi is only a component of the larger barramundi recreational fishery spread across Australia that goes back decades. From that wider fishery its my experience that spin gear has always had a following, be it one or two steps behind baitcasters but certianally on the same footing as hand lines in terms of popularity.
Dicko
14-07-2009, 12:09 PM
Lets not even talk about the gear that the mainstream fishing media was promoting as ideal impoundment barra tackle ::) ..... just look through your mags around the 03-06 circa
It was all about the reel with less emphasis on the rod
But how things have changed - now it would be unusual to not see a spin stick on a boat - + with the quality of todays small spin reels - there is no drama.
Sure people have used spin gear in impoundments since day 1 - but it would have been adapted from their normal fishing - As the fish grew the tackle was developed along the baitcaster platform .... beefed up (50lb Braid) - & away we went.....
Chris
Interesting thread.
I recall bumping into Dale, Fitzy & crew one weekend down at Faust in about 03 or 04. It was an interesting weekend, for a variety of reasons ;D
Whilst we were getting the odd fish, we had many more tales of lost fish due to broken lures, straightened hooks etc. One thing that stuck in my mind was that Fitzy was quietly landing metre plus fish in the timber using his light bream/bass spin gear & 12lb (20lb ?) braid.
Lots of these new fishing techniques aren't always so new. ;)
aussiebasser
14-07-2009, 12:48 PM
Interesting thread.
I recall bumping into Dale, Fitzy & crew one weekend down at Faust in about 03 or 04. It was an interesting weekend, for a variety of reasons ;D
Whilst we were getting the odd fish, we had many more tales of lost fish due to broken lures, straightened hooks etc. One thing that stuck in my mind was that Fitzy was quietly landing metre plus fish in the timber using his light bream/bass spin gear & 12lb (20lb ?) braid.
Lots of these new fishing techniques aren't always so new. ;)
Fitz was using a 2kg Loomis, Daiwa Fuego and 20lb Bionic. He pulled that 107 out of the trees in Barra Alley and I filmed the whole thing. It certainly opened my eyes. The next fish opened Fitzy's eyes though. That'd be the same weekend you lost your tackle box Dicko and I broke the 665 Loomis and stripped the gears off the 5500 Abu. I think there were some spin rods in my boat that weekend too.
Can't ague with that, from an impoundment perspective but impoundment barramundi is only a component of the larger barramundi recreational fishery spread across Australia that goes back decades. From that wider fishery its my experience that spin gear has always had a following, be it one or two steps behind baitcasters but certianally on the same footing as hand lines in terms of popularity.
I think this whole discussion needed some clarification ...... Its about impoundment barra fishing.
This is no different to todays offshore jigging ( pre 21st century) probably just about everyone used a overhead - - - today its about Saltiga , Stella etc spin reels ...... those same spin reels are now knocking over big marlin - Who would have thought :-/ But West Australians have been using big spin reels for decades ....... :P
Chris
By the way ..... I just improved on my 46M (new pb of 58M) ..... there was less of a cross wind & I respooled my reel:P ..... mind you I wouldn't cast that way off a boat::)
Chris
Dick Pasfield
14-07-2009, 01:19 PM
I think this whole discussion needed some clarification ...... Its about impoundment barra fishing.
No its not Chris, There's a heap of info in this thread that is directly applicable to barramundi across the board. To suggest exclusivity would be to reduce your input base and that would be a mistake.
Jeremy87
14-07-2009, 02:42 PM
double post
Jeremy87
14-07-2009, 02:54 PM
Regardless of when spin apparently became mainstream in freshwater tournament stream is inconsequential. The point is that it has been used and has been capable for a very long time of catching barra, wether it be baiting in estuaries, casting at snags or making long casts at points. On many occasions anglers have chosen them over b/cast and there must be a reason why.
No its not Chris, There's a heap of info in this thread that is directly applicable to barramundi across the board. To suggest exclusivity would be to reduce your input base and that would be a mistake.
Totally agree. Limit the field limit the learning. For some reason this thread has gone down the road of distance. Is this the only benifit of spin tackle? What if we look at the perspective of spin as a delivery tool for snag bashing? What are the cost/benifits of using a short stiff spin outfit over a bcast in this situation. I know there was talk a while ago about bottom jigging barra, what are the benifits here? I think what we can probably conclude so far from all of this is not that spin is "better", but that it has become a viable alternative.
Dick Pasfield
14-07-2009, 03:28 PM
A good point Jeremy, I think fish holdability (that being, encouraging a fish to stay away from the timber) is a bout six of one half dozen of another between the two systems for me but when a barra does make a mistake being able to capitalise on that by gaining line quickly is more effective with spin. Every half metre you gain can make a difference when you only have a couple to play with.
The trick is to try and get the fish to make the mistake in the first place so you can take the advantage.
Hi Jeremy
Distance :-/ Its certainly not the criteria that I'm mainly interested in ....... But it is often the reason why someone chooses a spin rod - I just wanted to do my own side by side comparison ....... for the record :)
:idea: I'm sure that someone has used an offshore spin jig rod to catch barra.
I'm now getting a better idea of what I would want out of a spin rod ..... Its certainly not on the racks of tackle stores ::)
Chris
PaulMark
14-07-2009, 04:15 PM
Thats a nice looking combo paul, except the handle appears to be on the wrong side;) ;D
I like to use about 40cm of leader, I think others prefer it longer. I use the slim beauty knot...I havent had it fail, and it seems to slip through the runners with minimal fuss, noise or damage. Its pretty easy to tie too.
Cheers Steve
Yeah ok,I'm a molly duker.I ought to open a leftorium hey(Flanders is dead).
The combo is a nice balance Steve,don't know much about the Avaya rods one of the guys up here has been using one succesfully for Golden trevs.So,hopefully it will be ok.
Paulo.
Jeremy87
14-07-2009, 06:46 PM
I'm now getting a better idea of what I would want out of a spin rod ..... Its certainly not on the racks of tackle stores ::)
For sure. The tapers for alot of lightweight spin sticks are not made for big hardbodies, and the ones that are are often quite bulky and won't match a small reel. Look for a blank rather than a finished product.
Clearly you have spent alot of time putting together highly tuned casting tools for specific applications. I think if you approach the purchase of a spin outfit as a novelty purchase for the sake of adding a spin outfit to your collection your inevitably going to end up disappionted and it will put you off spin for good. I think your approach should be looking at a particular luring application that you feel you cannot address adequately with your current arsenal, and then searching for a rod that suits. Look at both spin and casting rods and see which comes up trumps. Odds are since you already have so many casting sticks the spin will come up trumps.
Steve B
14-07-2009, 07:09 PM
[quote=PaulMark;1045043]Yeah ok,I'm a molly duker.I ought to open a leftorium hey(Flanders is dead).
The combo is a nice balance Steve,don't know much about the Avaya rods one of the guys up here has been using one succesfully for Golden trevs.So,hopefully it will be ok.
Paulo.[/quot
Paulo, if it feels good, and the rod can handle the trevs of hervey bay..than its all good for the barra mate....give it a shot....Being a molly duker is all good...I am one too when it comes to most things....casting rods, batting in cricket, golf etc is all right handed...I am all over the shop;);D
Cheers Steve
Tropicaltrout
14-07-2009, 09:10 PM
It just get better.... The mods should make a section on this site devoted to just Barra fishing? then post like this will be easy to locate and search through....
Nagg mate you are a man of many questions, just one thing mate is you mentioned about the extra butt length is annoying and slaps your arm well just in that maybe fish with the rod across body so the butt moves away the the left or right depending on you retive side?
Also I have been toying with the idea of with the longer butted rod due to the better handing in a fight making a slight pistol type grip closer to the rods end to so you dont need to wind in the general spin grip position but simular to that of a BC.....
In this lies the question of rod mods what changes to the basic rod layout can be added , removed to make this style of fishing better across the board???
It just get better.... The mods should make a section on this site devoted to just Barra fishing? then post like this will be easy to locate and search through....
Nagg mate you are a man of many questions, just one thing mate is you mentioned about the extra butt length is annoying and slaps your arm well just in that maybe fish with the rod across body so the butt moves away the the left or right depending on you retive side?
Also I have been toying with the idea of with the longer butted rod due to the better handing in a fight making a slight pistol type grip closer to the rods end to so you dont need to wind in the general spin grip position but simular to that of a BC.....
In this lies the question of rod mods what changes to the basic rod layout can be added , removed to make this style of fishing better across the board???
Hi Nath
Maybe its just me ...... but I like the rod tip pointed in the direction of the lure during the retrieve ( if not straight at it) ....... I find it easier to strike & set hooks - Something that I found through my breamin ( If I'm really really on the ball ..... I can strike the opposite direction of the line movement - which can also assist in the hook up rate:P
As for rod modifications / design ...... Steve Bs new S10(light) split grip - was getting close ( certainly the shorter blank length & taper) ....... it was very butt heavy .... but with the removal of half the cork & dropping the real seat back 2-3" ...... It could be sweet ( capable of light presentations & even heavier ones) - yet compact enough to let you feel that you are in control of a fish - - - Matched with a 3000 size reel :smitten:
Chris
keep asking the questions Chris, theres no right or wrong, my way is better than yours crap, to date near 3000 LOOKERS WITH INDIVIDUAL STYLES, TECHNIQUES, BUDGETS AND EXPECTATIONS prove that, good stuff!
Daryl, did you row when you were at college??????????
You must be getting toey Brian ...... whats that - a month since your last shot at the chromed ones :'(
Chris
You must be getting toey Brian ...... whats that - a month since your last shot at the chromed ones :'(
Chris
yup, have I ever mentioned to you how much I detest work >:(
yup, have I ever mentioned to you how much I detest work >:(
I think you may have mentioned something along that line:'( - so when do you think you'll get up there next ?
Whitto
15-07-2009, 08:20 AM
We will continue your dilemma on Friday night near a Fire and a Beverage or 10......I have a plan to have you using your own Spin outfit before the Muster;)
SeekingBarradise
15-07-2009, 11:21 AM
Talking to Steve B and Nathan (Tropical Trout) on the phone this week and they have both loved this thread and like me learn't a few things. JM has been out working on things as well so there you go this thread has been a success for all levels no matter what your budget.:D
Some of us wanted a tangible e.g. actual figures on the oval to see what our gear can do so we don't just have opinion in this thread that's all. It wasn't a comp ok. Then we hit the water chasing lots of different species of fish several times this week. Not all of us have been on the sofa all week.
To say we are just oval casting is way off the mark, in fact one guy is doing double sessions a day on barra for the next 14 days using stuff from this thread.
He and his mates will do more sessions of barra fishing than any impoundment guide in the state in the next couple of weeks.
And another used this helpfull info all over North Queensland and the Northern Territory for several months of fishing. Oval casting was still a usefull part of this equation as it quickly sorted things out in a blunt factual manner.
Ausfish is not Twitter or Facebook. ;D
It's a fishing site, so to limit thinking on a fishing thread (Spin) defeats the puprose of having a fishing web site. If you are a person that doesn't like, or want to learn more, just go to a chat thread. If your learning is maxed out then join facebook or twitter. But don't road block learning.
For the record i've had beers several times with Chris, Daryle, Steve, Nath, Whitto and many of the guys on this thread so there is on stress at all between us. We will be having having plenty more fishing trips together and some healthy debate around the campfire hopefully.
Cheers Lyndon.:D
darylive
15-07-2009, 11:50 AM
To say we are just oval casting is way off the mark,
For the record i've had beers several times with Chris, Daryl, Steve, Nath, Whitto and many of the guys on this thread so there is on stress at all between us. We will be having having plenty more fishing trips together and some healthy debate around the campfire hopefully.
Cheers Lyndon.:D
I RESEMBLE THAT REMARK!
As I said in discussion with those mentioned I recall spending days in the back yard before graduating to the street when I first started with a baitcaster. There is plenty to be learned from the paddock or beach for that matter. :P
I have to confess spending time in the yard again casting into a bucket after attending shows where Harro is demonstrating his tricks :-[.
As it turns out I was in the market for a new outfit (who isn't) when this fired up. I think Chris and I put reasonably bait casters in the Barra boats at about the same time (that frog DVD;)). I am happy with it for that purpose and do use it for the long toss of light presentations but still go the baitcaster otherwise.
But hey i still like my old millionaire ;D.
Talking to Steve B and Nathan (Tropical Trout) on the phone this week and they have both loved this thread and like me learn't a few things. JM has been out working on things as well so there you go this thread has been a success for all levels no matter what your budget.:D
Some of us wanted a tangible e.g. actual figures on the oval to see what our gear can do so we don't just have opinion in this thread that's all. It wasn't a comp ok. Then we hit the water chasing lots of different species of fish several times this week. Not all of us have been on the sofa all week.
To say we are just oval casting is way off the mark, in fact one guy is doing double sessions a day on barra for the next 14 days using stuff from this thread.
He and his mates will do more sessions of barra fishing than any impoundment guide in the state in the next couple of weeks.
And another used this helpfull info all over North Queensland and the Northern Territory for several months of fishing. Oval casting was still a usefull part of this equation as it quickly sorted things out in a blunt factual manner.
Ausfish is not Twitter or Facebook. ;D
It's a fishing site, so to limit thinking on a fishing thread (Spin) defeats the puprose of having a fishing web site. If you are a person that doesn't like, or want to learn more, just go to a chat thread. If your learning is maxed out then join facebook or twitter. But don't road block learning.
For the record i've had beers several times with Chris, Daryle, Steve, Nath, Whitto and many of the guys on this thread so there is on stress at all between us. We will be having having plenty more fishing trips together and some healthy debate around the campfire hopefully.
Cheers Lyndon.:D
Well said Lyndon
& certainly no casting comp from my perspective ...... just a case of putting out a fair dinkum casting comparison between outfits that I carry ....... including the leaders ( I learnt a bit in the hour or so spent on the oval ...... some good , some not so ::) )
Next it might be accuracy over 20M ....... Infact I will do that :)
As the discussion goes on more & more useful information will come to light 8-)
The one important thing is that its not about back slapping , peeing in someones pocket & or saying nothing .........& Its certainly not a mutual admiration society ;)
Dick Pasfield
15-07-2009, 06:18 PM
I'm sure Scott and Lyndon would be able to answer/provide input into this, others may also have some knowledge -
When we talk about putting power into a cast, I suspect we're actually talking about speed i.e. fast contraction of the various arm/shoulder muscles. The faster the contraction the more the rod loads, the further the cast goes. Hence flick casts can go surprisingly far considering the limited arm movement because the movement is fast.
If that's the case we'd be relying on our fast twitch muscles in our arms for casting. If so a training regime to keep them cherry ripe, or better, to improve them would be significantly different to building the slow twitch muscles.
Would this be a fair call, if so what would make a reasonable generic program considering the gear that is usually used?
SeekingBarradise
16-07-2009, 09:57 AM
I'm sure Scott and Lyndon would be able to answer/provide input into this, others may also have some knowledge -
When we talk about putting power into a cast, I suspect we're actually talking about speed i.e. fast contraction of the various arm/shoulder muscles. The faster the contraction the more the rod loads, the further the cast goes. Hence flick casts can go surprisingly far considering the limited arm movement because the movement is fast.
If that's the case we'd be relying on our fast twitch muscles in our arms for casting. If so a training regime to keep them cherry ripe, or better, to improve them would be significantly different to building the slow twitch muscles.
Would this be a fair call, if so what would make a reasonable generic program considering the gear that is usually used?
Limitations or Opportunities
This is how i'd say things around a campfire with you guys. Hopefully we are allowed to talk about sport around the campfire?:D
A lifetime of casting will result in wear and tear on wrists, elbows, shoulders and backs. Ease of casting will go a long way towards having a more enjoyable time on the water over a lifetime of fun fishing.
That's why this thread is a ripper.:D
You are right Dick, however to talk about this topic is stepping on rare ground as it's heading towards fishing being an organised sport in regards to really having a look at strengths and weakness etc like all organised sports. Way too many threads concentrate only on what happens on the water. I don't know if many people in fishing are ready for this as i feel a lot of resistance in this area, yet everyone wants to be good or better so it doesn't make sense when we step back and have a look at the bigger picture?:)
E.G. You only have to look at Tiger Wood's training to explain exactly what you
mean as he crunches a golf ball 350m then has the touch to nail puts from 30ft or 6ft on super fast greens then chip in from the bunker. He started early and at the age of 4 could concentrate for hours on end watching his old man practise. At the start some of his training practises were criticised.
I saw people complaining about the way he looked just last week. These guys didn't get it that it's because of the difference in look that lets him do things many of his competitors can't, becasue he is not the same as them. I think he would be happy with his results even if he retired at 30 years young:D Maybe he was the kick in the ass some parts of golf needed as he didn't do everything the same as everyone else.
From Different to Mainstream in less than a decade:D
Now many have copied his training routines, yep the ones that were criticised as they might just have been before their time. It took a good thrashing or 100 thrashings for some to get the message to sink in. As he kept going away from the field the demand for those that provide what he has grew.
In fishing if we fish the same place with the same people maybe we don't get the thrashings we need at times to make us wake up and see where we really are in other company. I think the taylor brothers in tournaments are showing what is possible at a young age and guides are showing what is possible with first time clients.
Another Sport To Think About
Watch what a guy does to serve over 220km/hr or watch a kid serve 200km/hr.. :D Stand behind them, side on then down the other end to really appreciate what is possible. Then stand outside the net and watch a world number 1 (Or junior) shape the ball through the air and off the court at 200km/hr and you will be amazed at what is possible from small changes in wrist/arm and body position. (Amazing stuff).
Why should fishing be any different? However these guys started at primary school, then high school with 3 sessions a day to get there, that's 3 sessions of organised work with coaches like Pat Rafters watching every ball. Fishing is way off this mark, hence the basic level arguements that bog down learning at times.
Open Minded
In fishing like golf there is resistance to training or physical performance. Many still want to believe you need to down a carton of beer each night followed by 10 family size pizza's to get the best performance in any sport. But injuries and limited capabilities when there are millions of dollars on the line soon turn around most of the sceptics but not all. I think this might be part of the battle on this thread. Yes some have gotten away with out of this world talent but they will have huge health problems in the second half of life and nobody wishes that on anyone. (Surgery)
I didn't go down this track as people that have slow twitch, poor flexibility or technique might not ever be able to match others at casting no matter how expensive the gear or if they have they have done 50 years more fishing and casting than kids or social fisho's.:)
Performance
E.g. some people in a group will always be the quickest, others will have the best endurance and others sharp reflexes. At the moment i am finding the younger fella's have some advantages here as they haven't tightened up or gone down the road of 50 000 casts using bad habits etc. They have usually just completed the most active part of their life at school with sport etc. Many of the young fella's are more open to listening, experimenting and learning. If you don't believe me i'll just add that the taylor brothers have found this thread interesting.
Even a guide has found this thread interesting. I think most of us could learn a lot from this thread. I have it's been a great thread.
To Share Or To Battle
Personally I have found that the hardest ages to talk to are usually males between late 30's and 50's with a lot not wanting to even remotely hear that what they are doing could be improved. Many are set in their ways etc.(*Exceptions). But i find the old fella's get efficient at expending less energy to get what they want. A balance in between i reckon is the perfect setup.:D But this is only achieved if we are open minded.
Cheers Lyndon.:D
SeekingBarradise
16-07-2009, 10:09 AM
Have a look the good old World Series Cricketers and how they do and don't move when chasing a ball and throwing etc.
See if you notice any differences to todays cricketers?
Any improvements?
Any differences in shape?
Ask yourself why you think these changes came about?
What is limiting their performance?
This is relevant as they have throwing and bowling actions.
I know the era's are different and i completely respect that, but the footage will get my point across better than words can as it's visual footage.
If you went back in time and suggested that smoking in the lunch time break wasn't the best idea or drinking every night after the days play wasn't really that good for your they would laugh. Then if you told them to do todays training methods the players, coaches and staff would all laugh at you while they were thinking you are crazy because it was new and they hadn't heard of these so called new methods. However today it's mainstream and change has arrived.
I think this might have some crossovers to this thread and fishing in general. :D
Daryle at times casting in the back yard is the first time kids see the fun that can be had over a lifetime of fishing. I had some little tackers on the weekend saying " Do it again " after casting in the back yard and it wasn't long before they wanted to try it for themselves.:D
Chris i reckon most have probably already had a go at the accuracy thing as it's easier to do in the back yard compared to going to an oval for long casting. Dead right to mention it as we have concentrated on the opposite.
Hodgie would have to be up there hitting lighters at 20 paces i think.:D
The guys that do those fish tank casting shows have won casting comps several times as well.
Cheers Lyndon.:D
darylive
16-07-2009, 10:38 AM
As I have said before anyone who has not gained something from this thread is not really interested.
Thanks again to all those who have contributed constructively ;).
Lyndon are you coming to somerset mate?
I reckon we set up a casting challenge. Employing both distance and accuracy, we get you at one end of the oval and Chris at the other end casting at each other ;D. Maybe even leave the hooks on to make it more interesting :D.
Looking forward to getting together boys for a few casts and a few quite ones after around the fire of knowledge; with a cold bevvie and hot camp oven ::).
Having discussed length and style how do you rate a long slow cast as against a quick flick / punch out?
Comparing not only distance and accuracy but impact on the fisherman after a day of casting? I know we are essentially lure focused but it is a real issue with bait. Some times the quick flick sees the bait cast much further than the hook etc.
SeekingBarradise
16-07-2009, 11:41 AM
Double post
SeekingBarradise
16-07-2009, 11:42 AM
If i'm casting at Chris i'll be bringing the pilchards:D and a few Mullet:D
The Muster: No mate i'm booked to do other types of fishing that weekend so have a good time, all of you.:D
With the quick flick i get a few knotts in the guides at times which was expected. Anyone else found this? This only happens up near maximum speeds. Smoother delivery has been fine.
If others have found things out about their casting it would be good to hear from you now?
Cheers Lyndon.
[
quote=darylive;1045847]camp oven ::).
Having discussed length and style how do you rate a long slow cast as against a quick flick / punch out?
Comparing not only distance and accuracy but impact on the fisherman after a day of casting? I know we are essentially lure focused but it is a real issue with bait. Some times the quick flick sees the bait cast much further than the hook etc.
[/QUOTE]
Hi Daryl
I had a good chance to play with different casting techniques ........ but the reality is , I'm on a boat & even stepping forward to transfer the weight is not practical. Neither is casting with a long drop & rotating the hips ( bound to catch something or someone:( )
To answer your question ......... a good punch cast was around 10M short of my best weight transfer cast ( the accuracy was garbage with the big cast) ....... so for me ... its a punch cast
Chris
Yesterday ..... I had problems with wind knots when I really layed into a cast (1st cast was a mess)
Less of a problem when I backed off a tad ( & cut out those wind knots ::) - lower line load)
I was also using bionic braid which is pretty soft & not round in profile
Chris
If i'm casting at Chris i'll be bringing the pilchards:D and a few Mullet:D
Cheers Lyndon.
Silly boy ........ lead slugs would be my choice :LOL:
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
16-07-2009, 05:53 PM
*Just a note on casting and endurance. Sometimes I cast the lure for clients, especially the elderly. One trip- I spent 4 days with an ageing couple. I would stand between them and cast each lure as it came back to the boat. The meaning of all of this is that I cast twice as much in the typical time frame than I normally would if fishing alone. Double effort for 4 days. By day 4, I could not keep up the work load; I was shagged. The body ached, so I suppose it does show that increasing the work load of casting can result in exhaustion. Even with what I thought was a simple job, the end result was draining, so it does ring true that effeciency in casting technique will help an angler, even during a short shift on a barra lake. Technique is everything. Fitness and conditioning, well that is another chapter, as I discovered.
Cheers,
Johnny Mitch
Big_Ren
16-07-2009, 07:13 PM
The body ached, so I suppose it does show that increasing the work load of casting can result in exhaustion. Even with what I thought was a simple job, the end result was draining, so it does ring true that effeciency in casting technique will help an angler, even during a short shift on a barra lake. Technique is everything. Fitness and conditioning, well that is another chapter, as I discovered.
Cheers,
Johnny Mitch
Bit like holding a little glass of water in your hand for an hour JM....gets a tad heavy after a while.
A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE
16-07-2009, 07:15 PM
,,,,,,,,yea Paul, but surprisingly, a beer can or a rum can weighs the same forever, no fatigue involved. :)
mylestom
16-07-2009, 07:16 PM
Well as JM as said the effort is different for each person. Spin gear for me, seating and fighting fish from the seat.
You will learn to adjust to what suit you as an individual, no hard and fast rules.
Tennis elbows, one arm or just getting older. Enjoy your fishing. Find what you can personally manage, and go with that.
There are no better system for all anglers, by all means try all the systems, but be happy that you are fishing and doing the best that you can.
Regards
Trev
Big_Ren
16-07-2009, 07:18 PM
,,,,,,,,yea Paul, but surprisingly, a beer can or a rum can weighs the same forever, no fatigue involved. :)
No fatigue, but a little tiredness Johnny;)
,,,,,,,,yea Paul, but surprisingly, a beer can or a rum can weighs the same forever, no fatigue involved. :)
& the beauty is ....... drink some & it just gets lighter :P
Whitto
17-07-2009, 08:00 AM
& the beauty is ....... drink some & it just gets lighter :P
Go to a Smokemart and buy one of those helmuts with 2 cans attached and drink the content through a straw.....Therefore eliminating any unneccessary fatigue.....::)
OK ...... Here is my dilemma
I'm a natural left hander who swings right handed ::)
When I cast double handed ..... I cast over my right shoulder (left hand on the bottom grip - right hand above.
So thats fine for the cast
Unfortunately for me - at the completion of the cast ...... I have to transfer my bottom hand to gripping the handle with the stem of the reel between the 3rd & 4th fingers ...... & wind with my right hand - I feel I can control the fishing rod better in my left hand.
I can tell you this is really inefficient & I've thought about winding with my left hand avoiding that clumsy change of position.
****I do the same when double handed baitcasting - but its much more efficient with the changeover made easy by the hand position ( close together during the cast) The changeover is usually completed by touchdown ****
Does anyone else have this type of issue & do you just wind with your other hand ? ....... Is it better to control the fishing rod with your natural hand ???? - I know it would be a big change for me & like learning to walk all over again :-/
Chris
So
darylive
17-07-2009, 10:13 AM
OK ...... Here is my dilemma
I'm a natural left hander who swings right handed ::)
When I cast double handed ..... I cast over my right shoulder (left hand on the bottom grip - right hand above.
So thats fine for the cast
Unfortunately for me - at the completion of the cast ...... I have to transfer my bottom hand to gripping the handle with the stem of the reel between the 3rd & 4th fingers ...... & wind with my right hand - I feel I can control the fishing rod better in my left hand.
I can tell you this is really inefficient & I've thought about winding with my left hand avoiding that clumsy change of position.
****I do the same when double handed baitcasting - but its much more efficient with the changeover made easy by the hand position ( close together during the cast) The changeover is usually completed by touchdown ****
Does anyone else have this type of issue & do you just wind with your other hand ? ....... Is it better to control the fishing rod with your natural hand ???? - I know it would be a big change for me & like learning to walk all over again :-/
Chris
So
Doesn't everyone do that? I do.
Only left handers are in there right mind :-/.
Chris I have used a left handed outfit and it doesn't take long to adapt. Get on if you can and give it a go. Old story but you have to persist ;) but being ambidextrous you can do it!
Little grey men
17-07-2009, 10:52 AM
OK ...... Here is my dilemma
I'm a natural left hander who swings right handed ::)
When I cast double handed ..... I cast over my right shoulder (left hand on the bottom grip - right hand above.
So thats fine for the cast
Unfortunately for me - at the completion of the cast ...... I have to transfer my bottom hand to gripping the handle with the stem of the reel between the 3rd & 4th fingers ...... & wind with my right hand - I feel I can control the fishing rod better in my left hand.
I can tell you this is really inefficient & I've thought about winding with my left hand avoiding that clumsy change of position.
****I do the same when double handed baitcasting - but its much more efficient with the changeover made easy by the hand position ( close together during the cast) The changeover is usually completed by touchdown ****
Does anyone else have this type of issue & do you just wind with your other hand ? ....... Is it better to control the fishing rod with your natural hand ???? - I know it would be a big change for me & like learning to walk all over again :-/
Chris
So
I was setting up a little Loomis spin stick for wild bass last night and thought, perhaps I should put the reel handle on the left side of the reel and hold the rod with my right. As the lures can get hit quite quickly after the cast. I tried it and gave it a few flicks and did not like it one bit. I quickly put the reel handle back on the right side again.
I liked the action I could impart on the light lures as my right arm could control the rod a little smoother but winding left handed just felt so foreign to me.
It might work for others but I have trouble walking and thinking at the same time.
Jeremy87
17-07-2009, 11:25 AM
I was setting up a little Loomis spin stick for wild bass last night and thought, perhaps I should put the reel handle on the left side of the reel and hold the rod with my right. As the lures can get hit quite quickly after the cast. I tried it and gave it a few flicks and did not like it one bit. I quickly put the reel handle back on the right side again.
I liked the action I could impart on the light lures as my right arm could control the rod a little smoother but winding left handed just felt so foreign to me.
It might work for others but I have trouble walking and thinking at the same time.
Its a muscle memory thing, try it for an hour or so and you'll get used to it. In saying that i wind right handed, i do too much hhs not too.
Jeremy87
17-07-2009, 11:34 AM
Oh in addition i can double hand cast spin gear with either right and left hand on top. It has several benifits. Firstly when just snag bashing i can go left hand on top and have a smoother change over from casting to winding. Secondly i can cast at any angle without having to back hand cast, very useful for when in a canoe. Thirdly, when going for distance or hss i can use my dominant right hand to wind with and also gain extra distance by casting with my right hand on top. And finally i found learning to cast left handed easier than learning to wind left handed, this way i have nothing but benifits and versitility where as winding with your left hand as a right hander is only a benifit sometimes.
wheezer
17-07-2009, 11:54 AM
oddly enough while all my reels are right hand retrieve, i cast right handed for baitcasting and left handed for spinning. for me best of both worlds. its quicker/easier to make the cast right handed with the baitcaster, then palm reel with left hand while cranking over handle at completion of cast. i can cast the BC left handed but i have to then move my left hand up from the rear grip to the reel.
conversely with spin i find it totally efficient to cast left handed as of course the postion of the left hand doesn't change from cast to retrieve
i'm a little cross wired though, while i'm predominantly right handed ie writing, tennis, golf, i throw a ball left handed, kick a footy left footed but shoot basketball right handed. i'm also fairly decent at everything on my 'weaker' sides so while i wouldn't consider myself ambidextrous i'm not far off...
Little grey men
17-07-2009, 01:58 PM
Its a muscle memory thing, try it for an hour or so and you'll get used to it. In saying that i wind right handed, i do too much hhs not too.
Muscle memory hey ? yeh I remember having muscles a long time ago. ;D
I might give it another go tonight Jeremy, I really did like the movement I was getting out of the rod.....good for jerkbaits and really light plastics. Not to mention topwater stuff.
I guess the best way would be just to change the handle and go for a good bass session, and stick with it.
SQUIDDA
18-07-2009, 07:50 PM
[quote=NAGG;1046368]OK ...... Here is my dilemma
I'm a natural left hander who swings right handed ::)
When I cast double handed ..... I cast over my right shoulder (left hand on the bottom grip - right hand above.
So thats fine for the cast
Unfortunately for me - at the completion of the cast ...... I have to transfer my bottom hand to gripping the handle with the stem of the reel between the 3rd & 4th fingers ...... & wind with my right hand - I feel I can control the fishing rod better in my left hand.
I can tell you this is really inefficient & I've thought about winding with my left hand avoiding that clumsy change of position.
****I do the same when double handed baitcasting - but its much more efficient with the changeover made easy by the hand position ( close together during the cast) The changeover is usually completed by touchdown ****
Does anyone else have this type of issue & do you just wind with your other hand ? ....... Is it better to control the fishing rod with your natural hand ???? - I know it would be a big change for me & like learning to walk all over again :-/
Chris
Gday Chris,
I am a natural right hander but play cricket,golf etc left handed.Always have.Not sure why just feels right.I cast same as yourself but wind spin gear with my left hand now.I had same problem changing hands.Didnt feel right.Pain in the ass.It took a bit to get used to but i couldnt fish any other way now.I think getting used to rod control was hardest bit.ie twitching HBs and striking fish etc.Mates think im weird(probably right!!:P )but it just feels better.If you are still thinking of buying a new spin rod have a look at ATC range.TackleWorld shops.Good rods for the dollars.I have been using the ATC Hardstick Fastspin 7" 4-8kg for about a 18 months.Been good.Had to change stripper guide to a bigger one to suit my reel and put on a better butt cap.Something else to look at anyway;D Tight lines.
Dan.
[quote=NAGG;1046368]OK ...... Here is my dilemma
I'm a natural left hander who swings right handed ::)
When I cast double handed ..... I cast over my right shoulder (left hand on the bottom grip - right hand above.
So thats fine for the cast
Unfortunately for me - at the completion of the cast ...... I have to transfer my bottom hand to gripping the handle with the stem of the reel between the 3rd & 4th fingers ...... & wind with my right hand - I feel I can control the fishing rod better in my left hand.
I can tell you this is really inefficient & I've thought about winding with my left hand avoiding that clumsy change of position.
****I do the same when double handed baitcasting - but its much more efficient with the changeover made easy by the hand position ( close together during the cast) The changeover is usually completed by touchdown ****
Does anyone else have this type of issue & do you just wind with your other hand ? ....... Is it better to control the fishing rod with your natural hand ???? - I know it would be a big change for me & like learning to walk all over again :-/
Chris
Gday Chris,
I am a natural right hander but play cricket,golf etc left handed.Always have.Not sure why just feels right.I cast same as yourself but wind spin gear with my left hand now.I had same problem changing hands.Didnt feel right.Pain in the ass.It took a bit to get used to but i couldnt fish any other way now.I think getting used to rod control was hardest bit.ie twitching HBs and striking fish etc.Mates think im weird(probably right!!:P )but it just feels better.If you are still thinking of buying a new spin rod have a look at ATC range.TackleWorld shops.Good rods for the dollars.I have been using the ATC Hardstick Fastspin 7" 4-8kg for about a 18 months.Been good.Had to change stripper guide to a bigger one to suit my reel and put on a better butt cap.Something else to look at anyway;D Tight lines.
Dan.
Thanks Dan
Rod control is the hardest part ...... specially when my dexterity in my right hand is much worst:( ....... but I'll certainly try it over the next few trips.
As for the rods ..... I'll have a look at the ATC ( I think I have before) - The thing is i'm not looking for a 7ft distance casting rod ...... My search is for an intermediate rod that I can control & work lighter presentations..... :P So its going to be 6"6"-8" tippy but still have enough backbone to control a fish....
Chris
wheezer
20-07-2009, 09:33 AM
[quote=SQUIDDA;1047051]
Thanks Dan
Rod control is the hardest part ...... specially when my dexterity in my right hand is much worst:( ....... but I'll certainly try it over the next few trips.
As for the rods ..... I'll have a look at the ATC ( I think I have before) - The thing is i'm not looking for a 7ft distance casting rod ...... My search is for an intermediate rod that I can control & work lighter presentations..... :P So its going to be 6"6"-8" tippy but still have enough backbone to control a fish....
Chris
just make sure you don't have unrealistic expectations for the rod. to use lighter presentations effectively everything must be lighter. the rod, line, leader etc which means you will not be dictating terms to a big fish...therefore there is no need to have a rod with a massive amount of grunt relative to its tip, as something else will fail..key is balance.
you appear to have something against custom rod builders, but they are there for a reason. when anglers such as yourself and many others on this board push the limits/think outside the box to gain the upper hand then often there isn't the tool for job available off the shelf.
i have researched and built a rod for a similair purpose to what you appear to require, but as a baitcaster (as such the reel has been modified with a tuned, lightweight spool) i use it to present lightly weighted plastics such as the resin head stealth prawns to finicky barra. essentially a bream technique, bit of shake, slight belly in the line, watch for movement, lightning fast hookset and its on! as such i set certain parameters to what was needed in terms of length, action, modulus etc. and feel the goals were achieved in this particular instance. PM if you want to discuss....
[quote=NAGG;1047087]
just make sure you don't have unrealistic expectations for the rod. to use lighter presentations effectively everything must be lighter. the rod, line, leader etc which means you will not be dictating terms to a big fish...therefore there is no need to have a rod with a massive amount of grunt relative to its tip, as something else will fail..key is balance.
you appear to have something against custom rod builders, but they are there for a reason. when anglers such as yourself and many others on this board push the limits/think outside the box to gain the upper hand then often there isn't the tool for job available off the shelf.
i have researched and built a rod for a similair purpose to what you appear to require, but as a baitcaster (as such the reel has been modified with a tuned, lightweight spool) i use it to present lightly weighted plastics such as the resin head stealth prawns to finicky barra. essentially a bream technique, bit of shake, slight belly in the line, watch for movement, lightning fast hookset and its on! as such i set certain parameters to what was needed in terms of length, action, modulus etc. and feel the goals were achieved in this particular instance. PM if you want to discuss....
Andrew Andrew Andrew ....... way off the mark bud !!!! I'm more disappointed with the off the shelf products ..... Nothing so far has got me excited ! -
On the other hand , I have nothing but admiration for good custom rod builders ..... I've had made for me specials in years gone by ...... or made them my self - just too lazy these days & got rid of my gear! . So , more than likely my spin stick will be a custom job ...... & I will tick tac with you for sure8-) )
I have a pretty realistic idea of what I want from my spin stick ...... It certainly wont be a jig stick ::)
Cheers
Chris
Well , I'm still not convinced. :bulb:
I keep hearing about all the advantages offered over baitcast gear ........ but I'm yet to really see / experience them - & certainly not enough to make me put down my favourite baitcasters.
With the exception of burning frogs ..... My baitcasters still rule the roost ( ease of use , comfort & ergonomics ) :-/
The features of a spin stick that makes for a good casting rod (handle & rod length) detract from the ability to work the outfit (IMHO) ..... I certainly wouldn't want to be hopping plastics or twitching HBs all day with a spin outfit .
I know I'll be shouted down from great heights over my opinion ....... Thats OK
Cheers
Chris
PS ... Yes .... If I was taking a novice barra fishing ..... I'd hand them my spin outfit
Hi All
This was a really good thread ...... with some awesome opinions & advice :)
Well - I've spent the last few trips throwing a spin stick more & more ...... with the culmination being last weekends trip where l used the spin gear predominantly.
Now while I'm still not casting a spin rod as accurately as my baitcast gear - I continued / forced myself to use it by tyeing my favourite plastic:P - now to quote Lyndon , clearly my rod is not a delivery tool ( not for small plastics) however once a fish was hooked it was fine....... open water fish fighting (SWEET)
However........ & I'm interested in your thoughts here
I found that spin gear was inefficient when used in close quarter fights in tight timbered country - its not easy to back off & reapply pressure in those situation where we have a fish that is rampaging with quick direction changes ( rod work / angles alone was insufficient when using only 20lb braid)..... where as it is so much easier to thumb & freespool quickly with baitcast tackle .
Other than that - spin gear was fine
Chris
SeekingBarradise
30-10-2009, 05:10 PM
:) Yep Chris thumb on the spool is a easy way to control line pressure no doubt.
The delivery tool is just one way to setup your fishing platform, like cricket bats everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Some need heavy long bats with big grips, if they try and batt with a short bat & small grip that doesn't suit their body and style they will suffer e.g. thier results will suffer.
1. Confidence Factor: They won't feel confident, with this poorer mental outlook all things start to go downhill from there, mental approach and confidence is at the forefront of most people that are good in any trade.
2. Individual Setups: They won't be able to to exactly and precisely what they want with a poorer ergonimical setup e.g. the rod and reel setup just doesn't feel good and it doesnt deliver what they are trying to do, this might just be teething problems if not very experienced with a new setup (cricket bat or spin gear), so it may take a few thousand deliveries or casts to feel more confident to do late cut shots or put finesse movements on a soft plastic like some of the Awoonga guides or winning tournament anglers i know do.:) I have some rods that just won't allow me to do what i want to do with them, trial and error
Myself and a few others think that at times the rod range in OZ is a limitation in this area.
If we got rods built by wheezer i reckon we would be getting closer to having a taylor made outfit, like the best batters in the country do, made to fit the individual. To the ounce (cricket bat).
3. Old Ausfish Advice: As listed on here years ago, some jump the barra then get the head facing them which gets them away from some situations where they are heading for structure. Once jumped we just have to do a Trev (walk the puppy to the boat) just keep the rod tip down wind slowly and the fish is boatside in less than 30 seconds.:)
4. A Few Ways To Skin A Cat: This one depends on fishing experience and setup. Say guys with a few thousand barra salt and impoundment under their belt will fight a fish better than most of us me included. A friend of mine hammers impoundment fish who as he says "Lack endurance fitness", in comparison the salt fishing he does which is brutal on tackle compared to lake cousins.
If casting at timber is 50lb the option, to secure every fish for a tournament?
Can one fish lost be afforded when our opposition is the Taylors, McCnamarra, Coleman, Wilhelm, Burgess, McCauley, Dobe and so on? I reckon not, so the rules of the game on the day (if casting at timber) dicatate your approach, make your own minds up on what you would do (100 diff answers).:D But if fish are being lost and too many, the answer is wrong and another solution needs to be found. This stuff would want to be sorted out before being picked to fish on TV against good opposition, prevention better than cure etc.;)
Fish In Control, or Us in Control of the Situation
Back to my mate that hammers lake barra, his settings on his setup stops fish in their tracks, so in my opinion they (fish) would have a lot more trouble getting to that structure in the first place, added to this skilled rod work (maybe head positioning or jumping) and trouble could be avoided most of the time, as he knows what's possible having caught a lot of fish and having been through this experience a lot in life.
*Some fish in some situations just wont' be stopped, but just because we didn't stop it doesn't mean a better angler than us couldn't have stopped it.
Depends on Skill Level: Thumb on the spool control is good, but i've also seen guides quickly adjust client drag in a flash without even telling the client, and hundreds of those fish are landed. Drag control up or down on spin, done in a flash, no worries, just another way to skin a cat.
There are a few options straight up without thinking too hard about the topic.
If the fish are there (lots of timber) you just have to workout what will put them on the boat, this then decides the setup you will use, some use 200lb braid for leaders and have had fish burried for 5 mins that they have dug out of timber, lots of options hey.:)
But in the whole scheme of things how many fish are really lost to timber?
And are there fish in other areas to be caught, that are much easier to land?
Which is the best strategy to win tournaments which is what you are aiming for Chris.
Trev being the captain of the boat will be making that call which is awesome as you don't have to concentrate on finding fish, you can delete that side (50%) of the equation and concentrate 100% on catching them, a pretty good focused approach to have, just differ your fishing slightly and you have a great chance to land more fish with bream tactics or bass ones etc.
Cheers Lyndon:)
No doubt Lyndon ..... If I'm going to continue down the path of an ideal spin rod set up - then I'll build one or have one built ( far less available off the rack in what would be my ideal spin rod).
Techniques / rod work ........ was ok , just hampered by slow drag adjustments (up or down) ----- It was pretty tight country though........ & in conditions where a freespool / chase was a challenge. I probably should have been using my 30lb BC outfits in that scenario ( but continued with light spin by choice) - still landed a metery there though.
20lb braid offered some other advantages in the wind & weed at the time.
Still tinkering
Chris
SeekingBarradise
30-10-2009, 06:19 PM
Yep downwind casts with spin gear using a Berkley Mullet on with 20lb braid should give most people a 70m casts (downwind), a huge bonus in fishing area covered, and stealth fishing far away from the boat.:)
On another tournament note there should be footage coming out of a successfull barra spin outfits doing very well over the summer, which should get rid of any doubt whether spin gear has a use in the barramundi fishing scene.
If people don't like guides observations, quiet achievers observations, well this will be a tournament anglers winning strategy shown, with a long spin rod in hand, food for thought for baitcast only fisho's.:-X
Cheers Lyndon.:)
Tropicaltrout
30-10-2009, 09:25 PM
Hey all
Just got the new tub ready and guess what there's a 3 rod locker in her so two baitcasters aswell as a spin rod will be in it so there's the next hit for me put a few chromies on spin and yep if I can muster it on on a fly should be thrown in there somewhere!!!!!
Might Have to hook up with Paul and do a fly trip just for good measure
Hey all
Just got the new tub ready and guess what there's a 3 rod locker in her so two baitcasters aswell as a spin rod will be in it so there's the next hit for me put a few chromies on spin and yep if I can muster it on on a fly should be thrown in there somewhere!!!!!
Might Have to hook up with Paul and do a fly trip just for good measure
So you finally worked out how to get the puta to work in the boat ::) Was it comfortable to sleep in Nath ;)
Seriously bloke ........ noice rigg - well done
May your decks be covered in barra slime :D
Chris
Tropicaltrout
31-10-2009, 07:56 AM
So you finally worked out how to get the puta to work in the boat ::) Was it comfortable to sleep in Nath ;)
Seriously bloke ........ noice rigg - well done
May your decks be covered in barra slime :D
Chris
Thanks Chris
Lookin forward to the next trip now that's for sure, in talks now ::) I can sense a jack or two first8-)
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