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Fishmatics
02-07-2009, 10:34 AM
Hi

Background:

After 6 months of searching I finally found the boat and motor that I was looking for, the problem is that after only putting on 3 hours since purchasing the boat the motor is blown.

The motor is a 4 stroke long shaft Yamaha 115hp 2001 with 272 hours.

I bought the boat from a dealer in NSW. As I reside in QLD, I could not get to check out the motor myself so a paid motor mechanic to do a motor inspection and do a service at the same time. The motor was given a clean bill of health.

I have used the boat twice, both times the motor laboured to get going. The second time after about an hour cruising around the motor would start and then cut out as soon as I gave her some juice. This happened about 8 times till eventually the motor did not turn over any more. Thank Heavens I was close to the boat ramp as I had my 4 and 10 year sons with me and could get back with no harm done.
.
I have just been quoted 10k to replace the power head - SHOCK!

Any recommendations as the best way to proceed? Do I have any recourse against the boat dealer, the mechanic or the previous seller? I have sent the oil away to be tested.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Do I need to take this on the chin, cut my losses and move on?

Regards Andrew

pubgolf
02-07-2009, 10:41 AM
Thats a big one to take on the chin.
Tony Carroll would struggle taking that on the chin.
I unfortunantly have no usefull advice on where you stand but all i can say is i hope it works out well for you.

:thumbsup:

Rod

TimiBoy
02-07-2009, 10:52 AM
No fun.

How long ago did you buy it? Did they tell you of any warranty? In any case, there is a thing called Implied Warranty - you have a right to expect the thing to operate well.

Do you know what the cause of the fault was? You need to know that.

I would be in touch with the Dealer. They may want to help, they may not. At the very least I'd expect them to help out by charging the parts/labour at wholesale. Be nice when you approach them, the attitude test is the first thing you have to pass.

Cheers and good luck,

Tim

Fishmatics
02-07-2009, 11:02 AM
Thanks Timiboy, bought the boat 3 weeks ago.

Argle
02-07-2009, 11:09 AM
As others have said start with the dealer - nicely::) I would think that it would at least have the 3 month BIA warranty which I think is a 50/50 type arrangement?? Better than nothing I suppose but if you ask nicely you might do better?? Hope it works out thats a real b@stard of a thing to have happen to a new boat buyer especially as you had the checks done to try and avoid this very situation

Cheers
Scott

trueblue
02-07-2009, 11:18 AM
if warranty fails, it would be cheaper to buy a working second hand motor

Noelm
02-07-2009, 11:44 AM
I guess first thing that needs to be discovered is, what happened to the Motor? blown up can be a heap of things, if it is found to be faulty in some way, then the dealer should indeed help, if it was (say) a bag over the water intake, then you might be on your own, but a respectful approach is needed for sure first off, how old is the Motor?

Noelm
02-07-2009, 11:44 AM
OH, I just saw the year model, so probably not much help from Yamaha to be had.

ozscott
02-07-2009, 11:58 AM
You will have to start by getting a mechanic to tell you why it blew and go from there. It may be for example that the dealer you bought it off had just re-built it and put it together improperly....there may be a host of reasons. Short of there being any negligence or causative misstatement (or withholding information) about the motor and its history its just a case of bad luck matey...its always a risk with second hand gear. You did the right thing and had it checked out but it may just be a manufacturing fault for example or the engine may have laboured its whole life and had undetectable big end wear that caused a rod to let go...on the other hand it may have had major big end noise and piston slap that ought to have put a reasonably competent mechanic on notice that the engine was nearing end of life (if a rod let go because of that wear and tear) and if that or similar ought to have been detected (reasonably) then you may have an action against the mechanic who did the inspection for you....

Post back and I will see if I can suggest anything.

Cheers

PS. I am not giving you legal advice here matey, just some general assistance. Be aware also that there are limitation periods and time periods that must be complied with in NSW and QLD if you intend taking action....miss those and you have no action save for rare circumstances that I wont go into here.

PPS. There may be a basic stat warranty in NSW for second hand boats like there is up here for cars...I dont know.

PPPS. It may have been something like a sensor problem causing the engine to run too lean...who knows...you really need a good yam mech to review it

TimiBoy
02-07-2009, 11:58 AM
3 weeks you've had it? and racked up a whole 3 hours?

Seems to me the donk wasn't fit for purpose. I'd get it checked out what was the cause before you ask the boat yard.

The reason folks buy second hand boats from yards is party for "protection". You at least deserve some!

Keep us all posted on your progress,

Cheers,

tim

TimiBoy
02-07-2009, 12:00 PM
if it was (say) a bag over the water intake, then you might be on your own,


Mine's covered for that under insurance. Was this boat insured?

Cheers,

Tim

cormorant
02-07-2009, 12:19 PM
I have just been quoted 10k to replace the power head - SHOCK!

Hi what did the people who quoted a new powerhead say the failure was.

Sounds like there was no oil in the motor and it siezed? Was there any smoke or warning sirens

On your mechanical report did it have compression test results , computer printout , leakdown test and oil test sent to lab? Was it tank run with a test prop on it to prove it was making full power?

Something is not right and I would be getting all my records concerning the purchase together and resolving what failure was and possible causes be it sand, bag, no oil, cam belt, chain hole in piston etc.

You do need to make contact at somem time with the dealer and describe the problem and possible causes and see what he says . He may be very good about it or not. Keep a record of all contact with everyone in a diary in case it gets legal later on which s probably.

Should only be a couple of hunderd bucks to pull motor down to find cause if it is not externally obvious and have photos taken and a report written up by a mechanic.

Claim may well be against mechanic who last serviced the motor.

Ethanol fuel or bad fuel can also kill a motor so it may be worth having tested so grab a sample from tank in a glass jar and send off t refinery.

Fuel water oil or a physical metal failure in the motor ? Any other ideas of how a motor dies in 3 hours?

Hope you get a reasonable and fair result depending on what the cause is.

the gecko
02-07-2009, 01:31 PM
After the friendly phone call to the dealer, Id put it in writing and fax your concerns thru as a backup. Id also be asking for a written response from the dealer.

I agree that you have to tread softly and pass the attitude test. Keep in mind, people will tell you anyhting on the phone, but its different in writing.

White Pointer
02-07-2009, 09:08 PM
3 weeks you've had it? and racked up a whole 3 hours?

Seems to me the donk wasn't fit for purpose. I'd get it checked out what was the cause before you ask the boat yard.

The reason folks buy second hand boats from yards is party for "protection". You at least deserve some!

Keep us all posted on your progress,

Cheers,

tim

G'day,

Agree!

You have two claims. One against the dealer for selling defective goods that were not fit for purpose and another against the mechanic who checked it and said it was OK. Apart from the commercial rip off, they have both endangered your life and the lives of your passengers.

I would also suggest that if the power head was good for 3 hours the rest won't be far behind. Before you spend any money on the engine (or replacing it) get the boat checked over thoroughly and the trailer as well.

I suggest that you contact the NSW equivalent of our QLD Office of Fair Trading as well as NSW Maritime and tell them what has happened. They will not necessarily act on this but they will record it and if your negotiations with the seller turn sour you may be able/willing to help.

Keep us posted.

Regards,

White Pointer

captain rednut
02-07-2009, 09:25 PM
hi andrew you need to get a yamaha diagnostic reading of your motor from a yamaha mechanic they plug in to your motor to verify the engine hours and also it will tell you all of the total history, rpm ,temps, faults and so on. where in brisbane are you? cheers jim

Luke G
02-07-2009, 11:03 PM
Was it over-propped?

Steeler
02-07-2009, 11:12 PM
Hi Fishmatics

Here in NSW we have the Department of Fair Trading,our state consumer protection authority ( one of the few remaining departments Rees has not stuffed up yet and it pains me too say that being a unashamed ALP supporter ) and although your motor obviously is not covered by a manufactures warranty it still needs to be " Of Merchantable Quality " in lay terms fit for sale.I take the point that you had an inspection done and all seemed OK but take the advice of others and have it Yam diagnosed and go from there.The real grey area here is the pre purchase inspection was a good one so thats why its really critical to have it diagnosed by a Yam specialists so the department of fair trading know just who they need to pesrue on your behalf if it gets to that stage,but the " merchantable quality " clause is quite a powerful tool in the legislation and i have witnessed many dealers ( automotive industry ) have repair and rectification orders forced upon them on vehicles that that were sold legally without a stat warranty using this clause.

Please keep us informed of the situation and i hope you have a positive outcome.

Cheers

Steve

Fishmatics
03-07-2009, 03:35 AM
Thanks for all the feed back.

To answer the questions:

The mechanical report was confirmed by telephone call that the motor was good, I have subsequently read the report and in the main it was only the pressure test that was completed, no oil test etc. I'm in Hervey Bay so relied extensively on his opinion.

The Yamaha dealer is taking the cylinder head off next week and upon his report I will post an update.

The oil has been sent away to Castrol for a diagnostic report - about 2 weeks.

Over propped? - No had the std Yamie prop on it.

No black smoke, no alarms.

This particular Yamaha 4 stroke only has the computer chip to programme the motor and does not record engine hours or error messages. Subsequent motors have this chip. Engine is a 2001 - is this correct?

I have already lodged a complaint with the NSW office of fair trading.

Update on costs to repair could include replacing the cylinder head, this is not included on the 4 stroke power head replacement, if this is also damaged I could be in for a new motor - 18k, not bad for a mid twenties purchase!


Thanks again for the information.

Regards Andrew

Spaniard_King
03-07-2009, 07:35 AM
I am not aware of any mechanical outlet that would send an oil sample away for analysis for an pre purchase engine check.

Sounds like your on the right track Andrew.

One thing tho do you know if this engine was fitted to the boat from new? ie 2001 just to confirm history of the engine.

PWCDad
03-07-2009, 08:31 AM
Just to confirm the Qld warranty on second hand dealer sold boats...

My boat I purchased on consignment from a boat dealer. Even on consignment it came with a written warranty for 90 days. It says... 50% of labour and 50% of parts will be borne by the purchaser in the event of a claim.

Hope you get it sorted in an amicable way and get those fishing kids back on the water!!

Regards
Anthony

ozscott
03-07-2009, 09:04 AM
I think that above people are being helpful with advice about "merchantable quality" - in Australia there is both state and federal legislation that can be applicable here depending on how you bought it and off a company or a business...but the requirement for merchantable quality does not mean that it was not of merchantable quality when it was sold just because it broke later even only after little use...there are a multitude of reasons why this motor might have failed and thats why you need to pin down why and how.

Just remember that just because something second hand breaks after sale does not automatically mean that the dealer has been negligent; has breached the contract of sale; has breached implied warranties as to fitness for purpose/merchantable quality...so whilst the above posts are trying to direct your mind to possible remedies just keep this in mind....I know something about this so I hope the message to get the reasons for the damage well tied down by experts is understood.

Cheers

PS. If you dont get any loving from the dealer get a lawyer

Steeler
03-07-2009, 09:34 AM
Hi ozscott

Good point made,My post regarding " merchantable quality " was based entirely on Fishmatics not conributing to this problem in any way shape or form and if he can sufficiently prove this through reports from the correctly qualified people then he is well placed to persue this using the above consumer law.

The two key points are :

1) Fishmatics contribution to the problem if any ?.

2) And as you point out in your post " after sale ", how long does after sale rid the seller of any responsibility and i'm sure in any of the DFT's previous cases involving similar circumstances 3 hours would be well within the not fit for sale category.

Cheers

Steve

Getout
03-07-2009, 10:13 AM
I think that above people are being helpful with advice about "merchantable quality" - in Australia there is both state and federal legislation that can be applicable here depending on how you bought it and off a company or a business...but the requirement for merchantable quality does not mean that it was not of merchantable quality when it was sold just because it broke later even only after little use...there are a multitude of reasons why this motor might have failed and thats why you need to pin down why and how.

Just remember that just because something second hand breaks after sale does not automatically mean that the dealer has been negligent; has breached the contract of sale; has breached implied warranties as to fitness for purpose/merchantable quality...so whilst the above posts are trying to direct your mind to possible remedies just keep this in mind....I know something about this so I hope the message to get the reasons for the damage well tied down by experts is understood.

Cheers

PS. If you dont get any loving from the dealer get a lawyer

I agree. It must be determined what caused the problem before blame is levelled. The water intake could have been inadvertantly blocked with sand or even a plastic bag during normal use. This is not the fault of the dealer.

foxx510
03-07-2009, 12:05 PM
I agree. It must be determined what caused the problem before blame is levelled. The water intake could have been inadvertantly blocked with sand or even a plastic bag during normal use. This is not the fault of the dealer.

From the description it sounds like it had issues from the beginning. Wouldn't you get a temp alarm with a blocked intake?

tin can marlin
03-07-2009, 12:22 PM
hi andrew you need to get a yamaha diagnostic reading of your motor from a yamaha mechanic they plug in to your motor to verify the engine hours and also it will tell you all of the total history, rpm ,temps, faults and so on. where in brisbane are you? cheers jim
I think what Jim is saying here is dead on the money maybe ring the boys at stones they will check it out for nothing as they are a leading Yamaha dealer.
Cheers Mark

cormorant
03-07-2009, 02:35 PM
Not that it matters yet but is a short Yammi powerhead and labour really worth that much? Long motor or fully dressed? Surely something must be recoverable They must have gold bits in em?? Anyone do exchange? Be checking the leg, box and trim for any issues before I went down the repair path.

Angla
03-07-2009, 08:59 PM
Question. Have you been told of wether the boat had been sitting for a long period without use, Like 6 or 12 months. I'm wondering on fuel quality and did you put in 92, 95 or 98 octane.

After 7 months (motor being rebuilt due to water dunking) with no use I had a 600cc, 4 stroke dirt bike motor lock up due to stale fuel. It locked up at least 6 times. I replaced the fuel with fresh mid strength and added some very good 2 stroke oil then ran it for 90 minutes with no problems and no problems since.

Luck
Chris

White Pointer
03-07-2009, 09:01 PM
G'day,

Still suggest that you get the whole BMT checked out before spending any money. If any other significant isues are found pursue the dealer for a buy back on the basis that "you are no worse off".

That means he refunds the purchase price, your cost of collection/freight and registration transfers, the establishment and cancellation costs of loans, etc so that your bank balance is the way is was before you bought it.

The "no worse off" principal is used by consumer affairs when they believe that products have been misrepresented. A dealer who has made an honest mistake can avoid punitive damages by ensuring that the consumer is left "no worse off".

I recommend that you pursue this.

Regards,

White Pointer

tin can marlin
03-07-2009, 09:16 PM
G'day,

Still suggest that you get the whole BMT checked out before spending any money. If any other significant isues are found pursue the dealer for a buy back on the basis that "you are no worse off".

That means he refunds the purchase price, your cost of collection/freight and registration transfers, the establishment and cancellation costs of loans, etc so that your bank balance is the way is was before you bought it.

The "no worse off" principal is used by consumer affairs when they believe that products have been misrepresented. A dealer who has made an honest mistake can avoid punitive damages by ensuring that the consumer is left "no worse off".

I recommend that you pursue this.

Regards,

White Pointer
Very good advice i would be doing the same thing

ozscott
03-07-2009, 10:29 PM
Punitive damages are most unlikely in this type of situation - the damages, if any, would be compensatory (ie for actual loss suffered) not damages intended to punish (punitive)....and whilst we are on the topic the person who sustains the damage has a duty to minimise (mitigate) that loss and act reasonably in respect of the loss.

None of this is as simple as it appears on the surface...try to sort it out with the dealer once you know what has actually occurred, and failing that get a lawyer (but, at the risk of steering business away from my kind, use a lawyer when it is clear that you cannot get a good outcome without one...because costs mount up quickly with one).

Cheers

Fishmatics
04-07-2009, 06:53 AM
Thanks everybody for the advice.

Just had a call from the Yamaha dealer, who has taken the cylinder head off.It now appears the donk has been in the drink.

I'm not technically inclined, but there appears to be rust on the valves and a list of other indications that the motor has been flooded at some stage.

The flooding could have been caused by the boat flipping or having the back of the boat flooded.

I have an appointment with my solicitor on Monday as the broker is washing his hands on any responsibility.

Regards Andrew

ozscott
04-07-2009, 09:00 AM
good move mate

Dicko
04-07-2009, 01:48 PM
Mate, that sucks. Good luck with it. It sure sounds like it's been drowned & a then its had a very quick 'repair' job before then selling it.

Does anyone know if there's a written off/flood damage register similar to cars ?

I know any vehicles on sold after flood damage have to be disclosed.

tin can marlin
04-07-2009, 02:03 PM
Hi Did you get a hold of capitan red nut as he knows this stuff back to font.

cormorant
04-07-2009, 06:11 PM
Go the legal and fair trading route and go hard. Get a specialist who does it everyday who has dealt with the Motor traders Associaton as they will know how far to push.

Try and find out the history of that motor / boat and if it was originally fitted with that motor. The Yammie dealer may be able to have the distributer look up the original warranty papers and you may be able to talk to the old owner. Insurance companies do record the engine numbers of written off motors as they sell them at auction or to wreckers. This may be one from the Coffs or Newcastle floods.

It will come out with court process the history of the boat and motor. Have a really good look at the electrics on the boat and see if they have corrosion and have als been underwater.

You have been screwed unfortunately so it would be interesting to find out if it is the dealer who got done as well ( was the boat on consignment?) or if it the dealers own work. Was it a large dealer? ( don't put the name up) Are they a member of teh BIA etc ? What is the code of conduct to keep membership.? Was the pre purchase mechanic suitably qualified, has he got insurance?

Be interested to hear from spaniard if there is any non destructive ( ie pull things apart) way on a pre purchase engine inspection ( like a borescope) he thinks this could have been discovered. Just what were the compression readings and what should they have been for a motor with such low hours??

Fair trading in NSW has a poor reputation in a lot of things so don't rely on them and their long drawn out mediation process as it not that swift or necessarily fair. A quick settlement and resolution is often better than long drawn out nightmare with an unknown result even if you are 100% in the right.

Take the lawyers advice but information is power in these siuations so if it means calling the dealer and trying to get him to find out the ful history and being nice about it etc do it as there is no reason to yell or be abusive and if the info later helps if it goes legal even better. Just make a diary record of al cotact and details.

Waterways ,police and insurance companies may be able to help make contact with previous owner of boat from the rego number and boatcode or if you an find the original selling dealer many keep records of owners.

Best of luck

White Pointer
04-07-2009, 09:22 PM
Thanks everybody for the advice.

Just had a call from the Yamaha dealer, who has taken the cylinder head off.It now appears the donk has been in the drink.

I'm not technically inclined, but there appears to be rust on the valves and a list of other indications that the motor has been flooded at some stage.

The flooding could have been caused by the boat flipping or having the back of the boat flooded.

I have an appointment with my solicitor on Monday as the broker is washing his hands on any responsibility.

Regards Andrew

G'day,

As soon as anyone "washes his hands" he is probably as liable as everyone in the "chain". Was it the broker who recommended the mechanic who checked it out?

Go hard. Keep Fair Trading in Queensland in the loop. If nothing else, they will want to be seen as being effective in coordination with their counter parts in NSW.

Good luck.

White Pointer

boatboy50
05-07-2009, 01:07 AM
Fish,

Some of the advice given here is IMHO pretty poor and well off the mark, yet some of it is extremely accurate and posted by people who are obviously in the know about situations such as legal and industry knowledge.


Just to confirm the Qld warranty on second hand dealer sold boats...

My boat I purchased on consignment from a boat dealer. Even on consignment it came with a written warranty for 90 days. It says... 50% of labour and 50% of parts will be borne by the purchaser in the event of a claim.

Hope you get it sorted in an amicable way and get those fishing kids back on the water!!

Regards
Anthony

Just to clarify, there is no requirement in Qld for dealers to place any warranty on used goods such as boats. If a dealer supplies a warranty such as in Anthony's case, it is out of his or her good will, and shows that the dealer is confident and knows his product well.

Some dealers choose to cover the warranty personally, ie they will cover any costs incurred. Some dealers choose the 50/50 BIA warranty above, some dealers choose an aftermarket warranty similar to the used car industry, and some dealers choose to provide no warranty at all. It is the buyers responsability to be happy with his/her purchase.

It is possible that this dealer/broker had no knowledge of the boats past, and that a private seller has basicaly done him or her over. You did mention the word broker earlier. There is a big difference between a broker and a dealer. A dealer will generally check out his/her product, whereas a broker will sometimes not even see a boat until the day you do.

It is imperative that any buyer has a mechanical inspection done on any used boat, preferably by an authorised dealership of the engine in question. A backyard guy recommended to you by the broker/dealer will generally do a half hearted job, and will take no responsability the day it leaves his door.

Best of luck to you, and I would be listening to the advice given by Ozscott and also know that Spaniard King is a qualified marine mechanic who does mobile inspections. He will know the responsabilites of the checking mechanic better than any.

Darren

bigjimg
05-07-2009, 08:57 AM
Jeez that is a tough break.Has the impella been looked at to see if a blade or two has desintergrated.Unfortunately if it's machinary it's gonna break at some point.Hope all turns out trumps for you.Jim Just read your post about the motor being flooded, imo the mechanic should have seen some external signs here.The best rinse off will not allay a salt water dunking.Jim

Marky Mark
05-07-2009, 09:34 PM
Hey Fisho, I've been in the same boat, bought a platey with a 2001 V4 115 yammie on the back, needed a new impellor but otherwise looked fine, good compression etc. Simple motors really so not that much to check. Five months later it dropped a big end bearing and put a rod out the side. I contacted Arizona Outboard Wreckers who sold me a reconditioned powerhead for $3500, my mechanic did the chenge over for $750 and I'm back on the water. Good luck with the seller, certainly wouldn't pay $10K for a rebuild, there are a few early 2000's getting around for $6-$7K secondhand but at least with the reco'd powerhead you know pistons, rings and bearings are all new.

PWCDad
06-07-2009, 09:33 AM
Fish,

.



Just to clarify, there is no requirement in Qld for dealers to place any warranty on used goods such as boats. If a dealer supplies a warranty such as in Anthony's case, it is out of his or her good will, and shows that the dealer is confident and knows his product well.

Darren

Thanks for the clarification Darren, Iwas under the impression it was mandatory.

Apologies to anyone in Qld if I midlead them about the 50/50 warranty.

Anthony

Fishmatics
08-07-2009, 05:02 PM
Thanks Everybody for the empathy and advice!

I had the motor serviced by the same mechanic who did the inspection, replaced impeller etc.

Broker referred me to the mechanic who did the inspections

This boat was bought with hard earned savings - no finance!

Under instructions from my Solicitor - no more comments from me until we have an outcome.

JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzz I'm pissed off!

ozscott
08-07-2009, 08:38 PM
Thats a hard thing to cop mate. I hope it goes well.

Cheers

BTW...you take advice from your solicitor and YOU given HIM instructions...:)

tin can marlin
08-07-2009, 09:23 PM
Hi Mate i hope it all works out for you it people like the one you have dealed with that gives the boat game a bad name. It sounds like the Yammie dealer is looking after you with advice etc. I and all Ausfish members which you all the best and we hope it sorts it self out very soon.
Regards Mark

cormorant
08-07-2009, 10:10 PM
Best of luck and when you get the OK please tell us the outcome.