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the gecko
25-04-2009, 02:46 PM
It’s a Johnson 35hp. the 3 cyl model, built 95, fitted to my 4.1 Allycraft.

The motor just stops suddenly for no apparent reason. Its like Ive hit a sandbank or something, but Im in 10ft of water.

It seems to run fine when I go out fishing, I do a 20-30 min run at 12-20 kts in the river, no probs. If I anchor up for a few hours, and come home, it goes OK for 5-10 mins, then it just dies. So I restart it, and it starts first time, and off I go a few hundred metres, and cough, and she stops again. It still restarts fine, but the stop go process happens 5 or 6 times on the way back home. If I drive at 6kts or less, she goes good, but once on the plane, she can die without warning.

My mechanic cant find the problem cos he cant recreate it in the workshop. He ran it for 20 mins and said no worries mate. Next trip, she dies again. Second time he looks at it, the mechanic says ‘it could be the power pack, maybe your not getting enough spark’. So he loans me a second hand power pack part on the motor (doesn’t want to spend $500 if its not the issue), but she died again!

Hes checked the fuel lines and carby. Now Im really at a loss as to what to do next. Hes gonna look at it again on Tues, and maybe take it for a run. However it runs fine from the ramp, and unless you’ve got time to sit for a few hours before you come back, it wont necessarily do it again.

Any ideas guys?

cheers
Andrew

Spaniard_King
25-04-2009, 02:50 PM
have you tried pumping the fuel bowl to keep it runing or do you need to pump up the fuel bowl to restart??


Does it die or cut out??

Angla
25-04-2009, 02:58 PM
Is there a breathing hole on the fuel tank as it sounds like the fuel tank is starving it because of a vacuum created from the usage of fuel from the tank. BrisRyan has just picked up a small tinny and the previous owner said it will drive you crazy if you do not open the breather vent on the tank. It would do as you have described.

Cheers
Chris

Roughasguts
25-04-2009, 03:29 PM
If it's as you describe and it coughs then dies it's fuel related.

First up drain your fuel tank and carby fuel bulbs it may have water sitting in it or water getting in to it as you sit and fish. Are you splashing water over your fuel tank breather as you fish cast retreive.

Clean your filters and suction test your fuel lines for leaks, then drain the fuel bulbs in your carbies and then prime more fuel in to flush them out.

Mind you johno's are good for dud coil packs.

But I think she's sucking water from your fuel tank. If it ever does it again in the future Try turning the tank around to alter the petrol pick up poin., If you turn the fuel tank 180 degrees then the water will be at the lowest end and the pick up in clear fuel.

the gecko
25-04-2009, 03:31 PM
When the problem first started a month or 2 ago, I used to pump the fuel bulb, and noticed that there was no pressure in the bulb. It also felt like it there was not enough air getting back into the tank, and it was sucking like a vacuum if i opened the tank screw cap slightly.

So I thought the same issues as you guys, it must be fuel starved, but Hervey Bay Marine is a Johnson dealer, and he said he checked these things and it was not the cause. I even wanted to replace the whole fuel line and bulb, but he didnt think it was needed. he might have another look at fuel supply now tho.

Its just one of those red 22lt fuel tanks you see in BCF.

yes it cuts out very suddenly. The whole boat lurches forward when it happens. However its getting worse. On monday night, it died and wouldnt restart at all. I nearly flattened the battery. (Mighta flooded the carb?) Luckily I was near the ramp, and got back with the minn kota.

this morning it died 4 times in a row, but restarted each time.

the gecko
25-04-2009, 03:35 PM
If it's as you describe and it coughs then dies it's fuel related.

First up drain your fuel tank and carby fuel bulbs it may have water sitting in it or water getting in to it as you sit and fish. Are you splashing water over your fuel tank breather as you fish cast retreive.

Clean your filters and suction test your fuel lines for leaks, then drain the fuel bulbs in your carbies and then prime more fuel in to flush them out.

Mind you johno's are good for dud coil packs.

But I think she's sucking water from your fuel tank. If it ever does it again in the future Try turning the tank around to alter the petrol pick up poin., If you turn the fuel tank 180 degrees then the water will be at the lowest end and the pick up in clear fuel.

the tank is below deck in the centre of the boat. Its a custom built storage under a large seat. Its dry there, I even keep spare clothes in there.

The tank is 80-90% full all the time, so theres no pickup issues, but i agree, I feel its fuel related.

Roughasguts
25-04-2009, 03:45 PM
Oh thats easy then!

Well I could be wrong I fixed a fuel problem the other day on a blokes new boat in a caravan park we were staying at. He had the same fuel bulb feel to it anyway I tracked it down to a intermited kink in his fuel hose. It was his landing net behind the fuel tank crimping the fuel line.

Mind you now his hose has a weak spot in it and more likely to kink in that spot again.

Angla
25-04-2009, 03:47 PM
A cheap way to test the fuel line is to just replace it and the bulb. How much is a new one? Then you would have a spare fuel line if it proves to not fix the problem and maybe you could use another tank and fuel line to check and see if it is tank related. That would give you a spare fuel set for when you want to go that long trip.

I think that I have read before that if the bulb does not get hard then it is the problem.

Could it be related to the 10% ethanol blend fuels?

Cheers
Chris

rando
25-04-2009, 04:15 PM
Does it only die when your are near full throttle.
If so I have had the same.

Try this. Disconnect the fuel pick-up fitting from the tank and check if there is a split on the pick-up pipe inside, at the top near where it attaches to the fuel line fitting.

The fuel sloshing back and forth can weaken the pick-up hose at this point. It is more noticeable with a partially fully tank as the split is then above the fuel level.

The lower fuel load moves the pick-up hose , which opens the split in your pick-up & sucks air,,, motor stops. At rest and or lower throttle settings the small split does not suck as the pick up pressure is lower and/or the fuel is not sloshing around as much.
Pain in the ^?$#. On my old tank the fuel pick-up had been welded in . had to buy a new tank,,,, bugger.

Might save you a few bucks if it turns out to be the problem.
good luck & let us know when you have the problem beaten

rando

Roughasguts
25-04-2009, 04:21 PM
Does it only die when your are near full throttle.
If so I have had the same.

Try this. Disconnect the fuel pick-up fitting from the tank and check if there is a split on the pick-up pipe inside, at the top near where it attaches to the fuel line fitting.

The fuel sloshing back and forth can weaken the pick-up hose at this point. It is more noticeable with a partially fully tank as the split is then above the fuel level.

The lower fuel load moves the pick-up hose , which opens the split in your pick-up & sucks air,,, motor stops. At rest and or lower throttle settings the small split does not suck as the pick up pressure is lower and/or the fuel is not sloshing around as much.
Pain in the ^?$#. On my old tank the fuel pick-up had been welded in . had to buy a new tank,,,, bugger.

Might save you a few bucks if it turns out to be the problem.
good luck & let us know when you have the problem beaten

rando

Thats likely! I had one of those pump up pressure tanks that split the pick up hose did the same thing spluttered air! instead of weed spray when half full.

dreemon
25-04-2009, 04:43 PM
I think RAG's is onto it about the coil on its way out, or possibly stator?

the gecko
25-04-2009, 07:09 PM
Oh thats easy then!

Well I could be wrong I fixed a fuel problem the other day on a blokes new boat in a caravan park we were staying at. He had the same fuel bulb feel to it anyway I tracked it down to a intermited kink in his fuel hose. It was his landing net behind the fuel tank crimping the fuel line.

Mind you now his hose has a weak spot in it and more likely to kink in that spot again.

I think your onto it. there was a kink in the fuel hose when it started, cos I kept too much junk in the storage area, like spotlights and tackle boxes. I thought cos I straightened out the hose that everything was OK. Im gonna replace the hose and I'll report back.

cheers
Andrew

Izzey!
25-04-2009, 09:07 PM
had a simmilar problem on the old 60 evenrude, turned out to be crap in the tank,so when the revs got up the pickup sucked it on to the pickups strainer blocking the fuel.when the motor stoped floted off the strainer and the motor would start without any troubble,till the next time the strainer blocked.

SCOTTYGC
26-04-2009, 08:41 AM
i had a simlar prob with the yammy
turned out to to be the hose fitting on to the tank

replaced it and never had the problem agian

finga
26-04-2009, 08:46 AM
I had the very same problem with my first boat.
Motor would go for awhile and stop. Go stop, go stop.
Fixed it easy. New motor. Job's done. :)
But it was dodgy and I knew it to start with.
Your's is a different kettle of fish Andrew.
I'd try with a spare tank and spare fuel line to start with and go from there.

QldKev
29-04-2009, 05:52 PM
I'd try with a spare tank and spare fuel line to start with and go from there.

I think this would be the best plan of attack. I have a spare tank you could borrow, but I'm in bundy.

If this proves a tank / supply issue I would try.
a) Check the tank breather, is it blocked? (sometime you will have problems when filling the tank in this case)
b) Crap in the tank blocking supply. Often hard to diagnose in under floor tanks.
c) Damaged / weak supply line. This could be a soft spot, kink, or even an air leak that gets worse when heated.

A few ideas.

QldKev

the gecko
29-04-2009, 07:03 PM
thx guys, Im thinking the same things. Weve ruled out electrics , so it must be fuel supply.

My mechanic has loaned me a new tank and fuel line, and I will test this over the long weekend. I'll report back mid next week.

cheers
Andrew

dreemon
30-04-2009, 03:40 PM
I've heard the check ball in the tank can be a hard problem to find,
when they have found it to be the prob they chuck it out,

Bilopete
02-05-2009, 06:18 AM
Hi Mate,
I had a similar problem with my evinrude 12 months ago...I thought I was reading one of my posts actually! The problem was identified as a stuffed cdi unit. I have a Evi 35hp 97 model.

The change over cost me $500-$600 but it hasn't skipped a beat since BUT i have been warned that CDI's on mny model are notorious for cdi units playing up.

Cheers

Bilopete

the gecko
17-05-2009, 01:15 PM
thanks to everyone who was following this post and made some input. After a bit more testing, I think its NOT fuel related.

I took a new tank and fuel line and kept it in the boat. When the problem started again, I took the old fuel line off at the cowling, and put on the new line and tank. Still got the same problem........bugger me. The carbys been cleaned out, and the plugs are new.

The mechanic has also 'loaned' me another cdi ignition unit, and that hasnt made any difference. Now Im really stuffed, so its back to the mechanic again. He reckons he will need to do a water test, but is confident he can find and fix it tho. He just didnt need to do the water test til Id done the fuel tank test.

Hmmm, the problem persists.....

cheers
Andrew

FNQCairns
17-05-2009, 01:48 PM
Got any more info on how it does it, like never when cold, never from the ramp, never when going slow...anything really. I stayed out of this one because it didn't sound entirely like fuel if it does stop dead.

Any testing you can do can help like, starting it in pitch black with a spray can of water to mist the engine to look for light shows to when it plays up draining the fuel bowl to check the amount of fuel in there compared to it done at home with no problem apparent.

Sounds like a soaked heat/moisture problem (but I have no good idea just guessing like everyone else) what happens here is there is an electrical insulator crack somewhere, can even be hairline and indiscernible, as the engine heats up it increases upon any cool down it pulls moisture in. I have placed electrical parts in the oven to dry for a couple of hours then coated them while still hot with epoxy to seal...problem fixed...not all the time though.

I would consider some sort of short along these lines that in effect acts identical to your kill switch.

Next time before leaving home drown the entire powerhead and electricals in lanolin to exclude moisture and i mean drown, there is nowhere this stuff cannot coat and see if the problem persists. A single coils shorting out cable or even single plug cap short on cowl latch on a 2 cylinder can act as killswitch in practice, 3cyl not so much will stop pretty fast.

cheer fnq

oh yeah, is it forward control? if so don't forget all the ignition isolating bits and pieces up there.

the gecko
18-05-2009, 06:16 AM
It always runs fine from the ramp on cold start. After it warms up, the problem starts.

At first, (last month), it was dying, and just needed a restart, and died again a few hundred metres away, restart, etc.

Now its got worse, and after a running fine for 5 mins from the ramp, it just goes down to 6kts on WOT. Its NOT running rough or lumpy, just slow. It feels like somethings caught around the prop and the revs cant get up (got a new prop tho and its spinning freely). So Im guessing that theres not enough spark or oxygen to let it run freely. It just runs really slow even with lots of throttle.

You could be right about a small crack or short somewhere.

cheers
Andrew

FNQCairns
19-05-2009, 08:40 AM
Have you felt the heads/engine when it does it? might be retarded ignition timing due to an overheat or an overheat sensor playing up, it's premix i assume.

Guaranteed it might be very simple but with 20 potential points to check it becomes more difficult, even a trigger under the flywheel can cause all sorts of anomaly's depending on the model. A sticky needle and seat also but usually it will display a some warning just before the fuel runs out totally.

I would start with an overheat check, either a real or imaginary one, that last paragraph of yours does point in that direction.

cheers fnq

CreelReaper
19-05-2009, 06:28 PM
Andrew,
This must be bloody frustrating mate. Doesn’t make for fantastic boating when the motor is unreliable.

To me there could be 3 possibilities…..
1) fuel
2) electric
3) kill switch

Now, if you have replaced all the fuel components and tank, has the mechanic checked the fuel pump? It could possibly be the diaphragm in the pump is pitted or has a hole or torn. This will subsequently leak ‘air’ and not allow you full bulb pressure or supply fuel pressure to the carbies. I am assuming that there is an in-line fuel filter just before the fuel pump.
When the motor stops, is the fuel filter full of fuel??


If there is sufficient fuel in the filter and line then I would be leaning towards options 2 and 3.

The mechanic has obviously checked the motor internal electrics and cdi etc. Is the motor electric or pull start?? Could there be a loose connection in the ignition switch or a broken wire that is earthing out??

It would also be not the first time I have heard of someone having trouble with the kill switch or wiring either. Is there a break in the insulation?? A loose wire, or a fault in the kill switch itself??

Hope you get this sorted quickly mate…..good luck.

Shane

TJ Bear
19-05-2009, 10:49 PM
G'day

Was reading the info below on another site and thought it may be of help, never know.

E10 Fuel And The Untold Truth
I have been in a battle with my boat for 3 years to track down a fuel problem that up to a week ago was driving me crazy.I have a 6.5m allycraft centre consule driven by 2 merc 4 stroke 50's, and the problem was while driving offshore i would loose all power back to walking speed at full throttles, when i backed off it would stall and only start under full idle.

The first thing was to get carbies cleaned 3 times by 3 different dealers which helped for a short time but then same old same old.
Next i cleaned both my tanks out 5 times both tanks {150 litres each} now this was not fun through the sensor holes buit only got teaspoon of shit out of each tank every time.
I contacted Mercury all over the place asking for advise but noone could give me any reason for the problem.

Now after 3 years of this problem i was going to sell them but i couldnt let some other fisherman buy them and i hate getting beaten.

just happened into Caloundra Marine and was talking to owner about other things and mentioned my problem when he turned and gave me a sheet on E10 unleaded. Now i dont use E10 but do use normal unleaded to which he told me servos are putting E10 into normal unleaded.
This is the important bit:
E10 FUEL ONLY LASTS 14 DAYS IN YOUR FUEL TANK BEFORE IT SEPERATES INTO 3 DIFFERENT PARTS.
1} UNLEADED FUEL ON THE TOP
2}WATER IN THE MIDDLE
3}PURE 100% ETHENOL ONTHE BOTTOM.

And because ethenol in thinner the fuel it attracts water which sticks to it and travels into your motors passing through all filters and clogging your jets. So as he told me i was pumping [pure ethenol into my motors and then water mix and this was the cause of my problems. So i done some googling and found some really scary info. Just google e10 in boats problems.

so now i use premium unleaded only and to this day no problems fingers crossed so dont fall into the trap of putting normal or e10 unleaded in your boat tanks cause you will pay the price. I wil try and scan the sheet he give me so i can attach it to ths tread but anyone can pm me and i can fax it to you.

good fishing guys 8-)
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the gecko
04-06-2009, 02:54 PM
Well finally this issue has been solved. It turned out to be a faulty cdi/powerpack/ignition unit.

We were confused cos the mechanic 'loaned' me a second hand powerpack to try out, and I still had the problem. He thought he was doing the right thing, cos he didnt want to charge me $450 for the part, unless it fixed the problem. The loaner powerpack musta been on the way out too. A brand new one fixed the issue completly. Hooray.

thanks to all who gave suggestions. I love all the combined years of experience on ausfish.

cheers
Andrew

Chimo
04-06-2009, 03:26 PM
Hi Andrew

Glad you finally got sorted.

I had the same problem with a 9.9 Mariner and after I stuffed around with fuel, plus etc etc I gave to the omc brp master technician who took a few minutes to diagnose that the bottom half of the power pack was stuffed. $300 for non genuine or $400 for the other one.

It would seem that half our problems seem to stem from the "service" we get from the boat mechanics out there.

Cheers
Chimo