Nugget's Dummy Spit

[fishing111]

I'll be listening as I'm confused as hell with all the hearsay. It will be good to have some factual information.








Enough is enough - how can the authorities that dish out the regulations get it wrong so many times?
In my job, I tend to hear a lot of complaints from boaties and anglers - some founded and some fanciful, but the number of complaints about boating and fisheries warnings and infringement notices in recent months has escalated beyond belief.
Most recently boaties are being warned and breached for carrying unapproved PFD jackets, expired flares and EPIRB types.
This would be understandable if they were not ALSO carrying the correct safety equipment, flares etc.
That's right, they had all the approved and required safety equipment but had a few older PFD up the bow of the boat, forgot to take their old EPIRB out, or carry their old flares as a back up - just in case.
Let me make this perfectly clear - Provided you have the correct safety equipment, in date flares and a current EPIRB, you can have whatever other, expired out of date or unapproved equipment you like in you r boat - there is NO breach of regulations.
I would love to hear from anyone who can produce a breach notice or official warning notice from this situation - bring it on - I'll personally follow it through for you. Secondly it is NOT illegal to fish from a tender provided it is marked as such, meets the regulations and is within the prescribed distance from the mother vessel.
Once again if anyone has a breach notice or can give me more details about a warning, I will personally follow it through with authorities.
We currently have too many authorities with the power to fine you - too many regulations to remember.
Water Police, EPA, MSQ, Transport, DPI, National Parks - bloody ridiculous.
This Sunday I'll talk with Maritime Safety Qld and get to the bottom of the regulation rubbish.5 - 7am, 1116am or www.4bc.com.au (http://www.4bc.com.au)
Nugget ><>

[dnej]

I checked ages ago on the flares,and it is actually illegal to keep flares that are out of date.That part has nothing to do with boating,just legislation.That is why I couldnt have the flare day I almost organised.

David

[JB]

Get into them Nugget i'll be listening... there will be so many rules and regs soon that you'll need a bloody PHD before you can go fishing ...grrr

[finga]

Wasn't that last Sunday?

[fishing111]

Dam, there was no date on the article so I assumed it was for this weekend.It may well have been and gone as you say Finga.Sorry lads for giving a bum steer if that is the case.

[finga]

I think this is the podcast
http://www.nuggetfishing.com.au/podcasts/msq.wma

[fishing111]

Finga first up thanks again for that link, good stuff. Good to know that you can carry spare flare's,jacket's as long as you have the right up to date equipment as well.

[Donny Boy]

I'll second that. Thanks Scotty & thanks Nugget.

[CreelReaper]

That was a good listen and very informative. Onya mate for having these issues aired. It has become just absolutely absurd with the ever increasing amount of rules and regulations. I am surprised however that there hasn't been much more of the same received. It also illustrated how much ‘personal’ belief is underwritten into the regs of our regulatory staff.

Just listening though, I picked up one very important point. Yes it is ok and acceptable to carry old or out of date safety equipment but at no stage did David say it was legal to use these items. The 2 biggest points discussed were flares and life jackets. Let’s let the EPIRB issue stand as the old frequency as far as I am aware is not or will not be monitored into the foreseeable future, and really is a waste of space.

Whilst I understand that replacing things like flares and lifejackets can be a costly affair, what price do you put on your or somebody else’s safety?? Now I am not saying that the older styles of lifejackets were not good jackets and apart from not showing the relevant info may just be better than some of the cheaper end 'legal' ones. BUT they DO NOT COMPLY with the regs. No ifs no butts!!!!! Why would you carry it if you can not use it??

More importantly though, why would you place yourself in a situation where the wrong equipment may be inadvertently used?? Life and death is the ultimate question here. Now, if you are using the old jackets as was illustrated (warming/padding your rear end or to protect your fishing reels then great. Go one step further and make them inoperable or unusable as a lifejacket. At least make them clearly obvious that they are NOT lifejackets.

In any marine incident where there has been serious injury or a fatality, the authorities will investigate. The moment you don an out of regulation lifejacket, you have broken the law. BIG questions will be asked and I assume that the skipper of the boat may be the one in the firing line for a greater charge than ‘losing your boating license’. Especially if it can be proven that you ‘supply’ of inadequate safety equipment was deliberate.

Now having too much safety equipment is never a bad thing to do. Having the right equipment is definitely not a bad thing to do. Having the wrong equipment IS A BAD THING to do as it just creates a situation that can easily be avoided.

In a situation where there is mad panic or hysteria, imminent danger of sinking or drowning (especially at night), what do you do?? There are many scenarios where things can and will go wrong. If you are on your own it is imminently worse. If you were on the water with your teenage kids or wife/partner how would you feel if when donning that lifejacket in a hurry that does not comply and they/you end up drowning due to failure of the jacket or the old flare just explodes in your/their hand how would it feel?? In anything to do with boats/water/fishing our duty of care I believe is so much greater and a much bigger responsibility.

1/ Someone grabs for the flares where needed. – They are not going to inspect them to see if they comply. They would be under the assumption that your safety gear meets the necessary regulations
2/ Donning of lifejackets will be done hastily. Would you in a fit of panic, darkness or injured first check to see if the jacket complies?? NO!! Once again you would assume that all is kosher.
It could be argued that you as the skipper are knowingly endangering the lives of yourself and others when having this type of equipment on board. The risk is too great, the ramifications do not bear thinking about and why put yourself in a situation where somebody could very easily sue your ‘ass’ off?? It just isn’t worth it.

Also note that I too would be peed off if I was getting fined or warned for carrying these items also. That is definately wrong but it still begs to question why would you carry it if it can not be used????

Cheers

Shane

[Kerry]

I checked ages ago on the flares,and it is actually illegal to keep flares that are out of date.That part has nothing to do with boating,just legislation.That is why I couldnt have the flare day I almost organised.

David

Yes that is FACT.

The sooner people realize this fact and ditch old flares instead of this continuing air of misinformation the better. The sooner this bad and condoned (by some) practice is stamped out the better.

A fairly similar issue with EPIRBS's but not as decisive as the flare issue. What it comes down to is the standard and the old 121.5 anolgue does not meet current standards besides that FACT that it is basicaly completely useless and unreliable so get rid of the dam thing. There has been a false sense of security and safety peddled by some with regard these outdated Epirbs.

[finga]

Gidday Kerry,
You back for good??
Good to hear from you again matey :)

[trueblue]

I was checked by the water police a few years ago, and they noticed that I had a pack of old flares as well as the new flares. They told me that they could have booked me for that, and to get rid of the old ones. I said that i was just keeping them 'just in case' and they told me that if I felt I needed more than the basic set, that i must have the extras in date as well.

Made sense really, I you rush to grab a flare when you really need it and grab the wrong pack and they don't work, you might be buggered.

Since then I have seen a few old flares ignited (or tried to be ignited) and it is surprising that the more out of date they are, the greater the percentage that doesn't ignite.

cheers

Mick

[seatime]

The MSQ guy in the podcast said - MSQ had no position on carrying expired safety gear as long as the in-date gear was onboard and readily accessible, they left it up to the boat owner to decide. wtf? did I hear that right?
The "Guide to Recreational Boating & Fishing in Queensland" says, and the General Manager's stated MSQ position is, "that flares, once expired, should be removed from a vessel and disposed of appropriately"

[Malcolm W]

Its the exact opposite here in WA. Quote from the skippers ticket book ( Consider getting new flares when your existing flares run out of date, but keep both old and new ). As an assessor I encourage all clients to replace flares once they reach the use by date, but keep the old ones if the condition is good just in case the first ones are not seen.

[Poodroo]

So many rules and regulations concerning boating. Regardless of how much we can disagree with them due to the apparent stupidity of those rules we are left with no choice but to know them and abide by them or wear the fines. My thought in the case of having "in date" flares or Epirbs as well as out of date equipment is this. In the event of an emergency where the boat is suddenly taking on water fast and leaving you with no time to think then what would happen if you reached for the out of date safety equipment during the mad panic and it failed to work properly? I think therefore it is probably justified to have laws imposed to make sure this doesn't happen? Just my thoughts.

Poodroo

[Grand_Marlin]

The flares come under the mines and energy act.
Myself & Gelsec did a thorough report into this about 12 months ago on Ausfish.

It is illegal to have out of date flares in your posession.

I spoke with the manager of MSQ, who in turn spoke to the Water Police.
They both had the "personal" belief that it would be ok to carry the immediate out of date flares, and were going to get the word around not to fine people for this.
Gelsec spoke with a number of flare manufacturers that said the flares were fine and serviceable if stored properly.

A tthe end of the day, the mines & energy act says it is illegal to posess out of date flares.

From an insurance point of view and a civil litigation point of view, you leave yourself wide open if it were proved that these out of date flares contributed to an accident / injury etc.

I agree with Nugget that the laws are administered very inconsistently and each arm of the law does not seem to know exactly what is right or wrong, and exactly where common sense should prevail.

As a boatie, we have two ways of sorting it out - both in very intimidating environments.
1) Whilst being grilled by a d!ckhead inspector with the attitude of a bear with a sore @rse
2) In court.

Those who are in deliberate breach of a law deserve everything they get.

Those who are caught in a "grey area" of legislation deserve the courtesy of a warning or an avenue of recourse through the authorities, other than court.

As much as MSQ, DPI, Water Police etc are the law ... Yes, you do get it wrong - frequently.

Cheers

Pete

[BaitThrower]

So many rules and regulations concerning boating. Regardless of how much we can disagree with them due to the apparent stupidity of those rules we are left with no choice but to know them and abide by them or wear the fines. My thought in the case of having "in date" flares or Epirbs as well as out of date equipment is this. In the event of an emergency where the boat is suddenly taking on water fast and leaving you with no time to think then what would happen if you reached for the out of date safety equipment during the mad panic and it failed to work properly? I think therefore it is probably justified to have laws imposed to make sure this doesn't happen? Just my thoughts.

Poodroo

I agree mate... in the mad panic of a critical situation you wouldn't want to pick up the wrong gear, and why risk wasting time checking in that situation?
The other thing is, what if the skipper was somehow disabled or injured in an incident/capsize or sinking... Your passengers reach for an old EPIRB or expired flares or unapproved life jackets instead of the current ones....
Suppose something happens to a passenger as a result of use of those expired items... the captain is still responsible for the passengers in all situations. Could open upa can of worms in a lawsuit and insurance claims could be refused.

Its not difficult to remove old safety gear from your boat. Why have it take up space when you have the new, approved and valid gear on board?

[PADDLES]

i keep my old flares, but i keep them stashed so that i will NEVER grab them in an emergency. i reckon that the same should be said for pfd's as well. in an emergency (and i've never been in one yet thank god) you'll be grabbing whatever you can get your hands on and the last thing you want is to be grabbing out of date stuff instead of the new stuff. if i am still afloat and need to use a flare then i'll give one of my old ones a go first. i actually leave my safety gear in a grab bag and also enough pfd's for whoever's on board floating around on the back floor if it's rough so if we do go over it will all hopefully get flung out and be floating ready for use.

[Malcolm W]

Its the exact opposite here in WA. Quote from the skippers ticket book ( Consider getting new flares when your existing flares run out of date, but keep both old and new ). As an assessor I encourage all clients to replace flares once they reach the use by date, but keep the old ones if the condition is good just in case the first ones are not seen.

I suppose the reason its illegal to have out of date and keep old flares in QLD is because people will test the limits, as I have found. Part of my job is to do a safety check before we go out for an assessment and there seems to be a lot of boats with very ordinary flares. While your rules are a lot firmer at least they are black and white.

[Scott nthQld]

Re about out of date flares (which reminds me, I need a new set too)

Not long after i bought new flares, I was pulled by by Boating and fisheries patrol.

After inspecting my catch (of SFA) and safety gear, the bloke told me that it was indeed illegal to have expired flares (which I did have, as well as the new ones), but he wouldn't fine me for it because he does the same thing, carries his old flares as well, that way if he needs to use them, the old ones come out first, if they work, great, if not, he uses his new ones.

He also told me that it was a pretty stupid rule (in his opinion), but to take them into the coastguard (across the carpark) and hand them in, because he said not all officers are like him, and they may well hand me a fine next time I get checked.

[garman1]

If I set off my flares and no one saw them..... I would love to have the opportunity of having two more to use. If the old flares didn't work then you are no worse off than what you would have been if you ditched them at the vmr.......

It is a bit like allowing 2 litres of water per person per day to satisfy the regs, but I like to carry extra just in case of an emergency......principle is the same as the flares.

I think at times the rules are made up by someone in an office, who hasn't been stranded or stood watching a ship go past after he let off the only two flares he kept in the boat.

Only my thoughts.......................................... ......................................

[LoungeLizard]

Is there any danger in keeping out-of-date flares in the boat? Could they ignite/leak/smoulder/give off fumes/etc?

[TheRealAndy]

Just a note on old epirbs. The new epirbs still transmit a homing frequency on 121.5 Mhz, same as the old epirbs. Whilst no satellite will pick up the old epirb, they can still be detected by aircraft and SAR vessels. I have an old analogue PLB (still in date) which i keep on the boat, right next to my new 406MHz epirb. In an emergency I would set off the 406MHz beacon, but I would always have that PLB with me just in case.

[datamile]

At my QLD boat license course the instructor told us to keep the old ones as you can never have too many in an emergency.

Need to buy some new ones soon so will be looking out for deals. Stupid if you ask me.

[Poodroo]

For those who would like to keep the out of date flares on board as a "back up set," why not have two sets of current in date flares? At least you know the second set will work and are still legal to have on board.

Poodroo

[Grand_Marlin]

Thats the problem - it's a legal issue, not a safety issue with the immediate out of date flares.
In date = no more than 3 years old from manufacture date / not outside their use by date.
Immediate out of date = 3 - 6 years old
As I said earlier, the manufacturers are more than happy with a shelf life of 6 years, but the law says 3.

Maybe they should change it to a "best before" date, like Milk, then you use it at your own discretion ... if they have fur growing on them they should only be used in an absolute emergency :o ;D

Cheers

Pete

[garman1]

I don't have any "old" ones yet, but when I do I think I will keep em, but seperate to the ones in the grab bag me tinks........I will just have a look at em to see how long the fur has grown on em every so often.....sorry Pete I couldn't resist the stir.;D

[CreelReaper]

As has been illustrated in these previous pages, this is indeed a huge problem.....dammed if you do or dammed if you don't. Yes I understand that keeping the old flares or non standard life jackets may just be used one day in a real emergency and save lives.
It is also obvious that there is a large area of discrepency between partrol officers, water police and the like. Even the Minister can't seem to get it right if the law states old flares must not be kept.
At the end of the day as a skipper/owner of a vessel you are responsible for the safety of all. If you are prepared to run the gauntlet then so be it. It is your choice......BUT, if you are inspected and the officer decides to follow the law and book/fine you then accept it as it is. Don't bitch and grumble as you have clearly broken the law. I also hope that in the event of a accident it is not made into a life losing tradegy as the loss of loved ones is hard enough to cope with without the guilt of not doing the right thing.

Shane

[ozbee]

you can always light a old flare from a burning new one so tell me why is it not better to have a flare burning twice the amount of time than a single

[FNQCairns]

I just checked because of this thread and yep mine are out of date as of the new year, I am still alive luckily but the embarrassing bit is I have only done 1 boating trip while out of date, will be throwing them, not worth keeping as the odds of using them is forever very slim - the odds of being thuged for having them is higher.

cheers fnq

[disorderly]

Is there any danger in keeping out-of-date flares in the boat? Could they ignite/leak/smoulder/give off fumes/etc?

No..they cant ignite unless they come in contact with a fire or somebody sparks them...out of date flares pose no danger ....its a bullshit law...

But like everything in life either abide by the rules or put up with the possibly of some small minded official trying to stick his small minded insecurities up your ass...

Me ....well I have a couple of expired sets on board(as well as the in date ones) and will continue to do so ...however I just wont be silly enough to show them to someone in a uniform...nor try to debate the merits of keeping them for an emergency...

Scott

[wotboat]

What to do with out of date flares?
Seems to me if the authorities were concerned with everyones well being they would organise days were you could have a go at using these flares. I've never had the need to set off a flare and I dare say the last thing I would want to do in an emergency is to be reading the instructions. There must be thousands of out of date flares stashed in boats and sheds. Why not put them to use and allow people in controlled environments to get some value out of them.
Most workplaces now dictate that you must be familiar with the use of safety equipment and demand that you refresh these skills on a regular basis. Can't see the point in having to have the safety equipment but you can't get the experience in how to use it. In an emergency, using the safety equipment should be quick and easy. This would only come with practice.

[Donny Boy]

Yeah,.................

Dnej ( Dave ) tried organising a day for exactly that.

Ran into more Red Tape & Brick Walls than you can poke a stick at.

I think he was trying to organise it in conjunction with the VMR at either Jacobs Well or Cleveland................got nowhere.............a search of the forum would find it.

[webby]

Old flares are Great for showing off a home barbies

[PinHead]

Old flares are Great for showing off a home barbies

LOL..do you put them in the barbie to assist in lighting it ????

[Lucky_Phill]

Greg, I think they are on hand for the distressed steaks..... :o ::)

No one would see the smoke from where Webby lives anyway...... out in the mulga !!!!!

;D


phill
/
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.
.
.

[Donny Boy]

You leave our bloody Mulga alone Phill.....keeps out the riff-raff ;)

[cervelo]

The flares come under the mines and energy act.
Myself & Gelsec did a thorough report into this about 12 months ago on Ausfish.

It is illegal to have out of date flares in your posession.



Pete

I am interested in the legal position in Queensland. I have been unable to find the "Mines and Energy Act that you refer to on either Austlii or the Queensland Gov Legislation web page. Perhaps you could post a link and provide a section number.

It seems a very unlikely position that the legislature would regulate marine transport safety through completly unrelated legislation, particulary when there is relevant legislation enacted to deal with the issue.

On the actual legislation that deals with this there is no regulatory offence of carrying out of date saftey equipment. The only offence is failing to carry in date equipment.

As for civil liability, if the out of date flares are stored in a seperate dry container so thgat you have additional flares to use once you have run out of your in date ones you are actually exercising a higher standard of care so it would be fruitless to assert that this was in any way negligent.


Cheers
Glenn

[mod5]

All previous posts http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/search.php?searchid=964273

[dnej]

Yep, leave our side of town alone.

Mulga indeed .Sic em Webby.
Cant beat Tamborine, Munruben, and Logan Village.
Gees ,most places when your neighbour passes wind, it blows out the candles on your own dining room table.
Not where we live of course, but you do have to have a 5 acre voice.
David

[BM]

Pete

I am interested in the legal position in Queensland. I have been unable to find the "Mines and Energy Act that you refer to on either Austlii or the Queensland Gov Legislation web page. Perhaps you could post a link and provide a section number.

It seems a very unlikely position that the legislature would regulate marine transport safety through completly unrelated legislation, particulary when there is relevant legislation enacted to deal with the issue.

On the actual legislation that deals with this there is no regulatory offence of carrying out of date saftey equipment. The only offence is failing to carry in date equipment.

As for civil liability, if the out of date flares are stored in a seperate dry container so thgat you have additional flares to use once you have run out of your in date ones you are actually exercising a higher standard of care so it would be fruitless to assert that this was in any way negligent.


Cheers
Glenn

Glenn,

This has been kicked around down south on Fishnet and the civil liabilty aspect stems from the alleged "instability" of flares post expiry. I don't have chapter and verse but I recall something along the lines of an expired flare becomes simply a pyrotechnic which one must hold a pyrotechnics licence in order to be in possession of. That said, in a marine safety sense the relevant act must have an exemption within it that enables boat operators to posess and operate flares (pyrotechnics) in the event only of a boating emergency.


I'll see if I can get "triman" to give you chapter and verse.

Cheers

[finga]

Yep, leave our side of town alone.

Mulga indeed .Sic em Webby.
Cant beat Tamborine, Munruben, and Logan Village.
Gees ,most places when your neighbour passes wind, it blows out the candles on your own dining room table.
Not where we live of course, but you do have to have a 5 acre voice.
David
Gees Dave, you'd better back off the baked beans a bit if you can 'blow' that hard when you visit your towny mates.
I can get where your going though.
You see some of the 400 odd meter blocks with the dunny windows between neighbours about 1m apart.
They'd better buy some earplugs (for in the ears and up the nose) if I moved next door I give ya the drum. I like my beans and cabbage and cauliflower and white sauce etc etc.

[Chimo]

Wasnt it said on here previously that something like 10% of in-date flares fail to work?

That being the case I'm going to do what a Qld DPI&F officer told me, and that was to keep the old ones on board if they (the package) has been kept dry and therefore they are in good condition. Sounds like a sensible approach and the way I'm going to play it.

Cheers
Chimo

[SatNav]

"That being the case I'm going to do what a Qld DPI&F officer told me, and that was to keep the old ones on board if they (the package) has been kept dry and therefore they are in good condition"

1. That Qld DPI&F officer told you wrong, he or any other officer has not right to tell you this.

2. They are actually telling you to break the law under legislation that has nothing to do with DPI&F.

3. The sensible approach is to abide by the actual legislation which prohibits the transport of out of date flares

[PinHead]

"That being the case I'm going to do what a Qld DPI&F officer told me, and that was to keep the old ones on board if they (the package) has been kept dry and therefore they are in good condition"

1. That Qld DPI&F officer told you wrong, he or any other officer has not right to tell you this.

2. They are actually telling you to break the law under legislation that has nothing to do with DPI&F.

3. The sensible approach is to abide by the actual legislation which prohibits the transport of out of date flares

what Act is that under???

[castlemaine]

Yep, leave our side of town alone.

Mulga indeed .Sic em Webby.
Cant beat Tamborine, Munruben, and Logan Village.
Gees ,most places when your neighbour passes wind, it blows out the candles on your own dining room table.
Not where we live of course, but you do have to have a 5 acre voice.
David

A mate that lives in your neck of the woods reckons even the goannas carry water-bags;D ;D ;D ;D

[Bowser]

the arguement here that old flares are a problem because you could grab the wrong one in an emergency is non sensical. You aren't going to "suddenly" decide to use a flare, they are going to be used in the cold light of day. They are going to be used on a disabled vessel not one that sinks out from under you in a flash. it might be full of water but it will be afloat and you will light the flare because you can see or believe that there is someone near to you that will see it. Any other use would be stupid as there is not an unlimited supply of them in the legislated pack and use willy nilly is a risk to your life. For me in this situation, I would be using th eout of date ones on spec when I thought someone may be near and when the search plane or boat is definately in sight then I would go to the in date ones to give myself the best chance of rescue.

As far as life jackets go, I use inflatable jackets that we wear most of the time and have back up jackets as extra floatation. From my point of view if the boat goes out from under me I will be using the inflatable jacket and if the others come to hand or float to the surface then this is a bonus and gives me some extra survival gear.

If someone can show me an actual danger with this then I will reconsider my position and for danger I don't mean some legal interpretation of something that might or might not be in an Act formulated by a solicitor with his head stuck up his fundamental orifice.

Next they will be telling me I can't have my esky as it might be used as a floatation device to save my life but it is out of date.

[dnej]

Castlemaine,
LMFHO.You have made my day
David

[CreelReaper]

Bowser, what you say sounds great and in fact is probably true mate and logical. But, are you prepared to accept that the playing rules are what they are and you have to accept responsibility for whatever may go wrong?? In other words are you prepared to take your fine to court and argue your side of the story???

In your case are you the only one on the boat?? Do you have kids on the boat, and are they going to think and act as you in similar circumstances?? Is every passenger made aware of what you do and are they going to think as you do??
If in fact you do have others on board and catastrophe does strike and you are either killed and injured to an exstent that you can take charge then what happens?????

Oh, and I have actually seen a red flare go off at Wello Point some 25 years ago mid week in the middle of the night. With a boat that was sinking from hitting the only red beacon for miles around. Were they pannicky????? nah, just absolutely shitting themselves because they couldn't swim.

Shane

[PADDLES]

yeah, i agree shane, there could quite easily be a time when i would be sh!tting myself and very suddenly have to use a flare. like i've said earlier, all my good in date stuff including epirb is in the grab bag ready for a quick exit, if i've got the time i'll try the old ones which are stashed out of sight so there's no way anyone can get them in a panic.

[Ando74]

Minimum 3 year shelf life, $50 for flares, doesn't that work out to 4 cents a day for an extra in date set?!

[cormorant]

yeah, i agree shane, there could quite easily be a time when i would be sh!tting myself and very suddenly have to use a flare. like i've said earlier, all my good in date stuff including epirb is in the grab bag ready for a quick exit, if i've got the time i'll try the old ones which are stashed out of sight so there's no way anyone can get them in a panic.


People might want to check what is in their grab bag. Out with a mate the other day and picked it up off the deck to move it. Was way too heavy. All the little extras had stuffed in there and when we checked the thing was like a stone so not what I'd wan't as I exit a boat. Don't particularly want to dive for a epirb either!! Poibtless if it won't float and pontless if your epirb is a auto water one.

[PADDLES]

good call cormorant, i've got a dive torch, flares, dive knife and epirb in mine so it's not really full at all. haven't checked to see if the bugger floats though, and will be doing that now.

[seabug]

Is there any danger in keeping out-of-date flares in the boat? Could they ignite/leak/smoulder/give off fumes/etc?

I read years ago that a boat had exploded out from Geelong.PPB, Vic

The reason for the exposion was said to be that the old flares had exploded from shock of hull hitting the waves at high speed.
Persons on board perished
Regards
seabug

[finding_time]

The Best way to get rid of old flares is to attend any soccer or canterbury bulldogs football match and just hand them out!!! You'll get plenty of takers!

Ian

[Lovey80]

Gentleman,

there are some in this thread talking out thier preverbial! Seabug..... who ever wrote that report about the flares setting off an explosion in the boat or who ever told the reporter this was also talking out his arse.

Those that wish to give long hypothetical what if speaches......please save your breath. Now that it has been established that it is in fact Illegal to carry said out of date flares it doesnt need to be said that those that CHOSE to carry a second set as a back up are not going to be letting the powers to be, know they have them on board. Seems pretty strait forward doesn't it?

Keep the in date ones easy at hand in an emergency (inside the yellow V sheet container) and Black leccy tape the crap out of the old ones and stick em in the bottom of your storage seat etc. In an emergency the new ones get used????? and if time permits (dead battereis- no VMR comunication) the old ones get brought out and untaped. Seems pretty simple doesn't it.

I can not forsee one circumstance where this could get anyone in trouble.

AND FOR THE RECORD OUT OF DATES FLARES ARE NOT DANGEROUS!

Cheers

[Lovey80]

This has been kicked around down south on Fishnet and the civil liabilty aspect stems from the alleged "instability" of flares post expiry. I don't have chapter and verse but I recall something along the lines of an expired flare becomes simply a pyrotechnic which one must hold a pyrotechnics licence in order to be in possession of. That said, in a marine safety sense the relevant act must have an exemption within it that enables boat operators to posess and operate flares (pyrotechnics) in the event only of a boating emergency.


I'll see if I can get "triman" to give you chapter and verse.

Cheers[/quote]


BM, you obviously havent had enough of the ol Fishnet BS yet have you mate;) If it comes up again on the ol Sydney forum feel free to let em know they are talking rubbish. ;D ;D ;D Not like you haven't in the past ;D ;D If by 'instability' they mean easily set off for no good reason they are dead wrong........ More likely to be come more stable as time goes on as moisture works its way in.

cheers

Chris

[iceknight]

[quote=Lovey80;1004710]Gentleman,

there are some in this thread talking out thier preverbial! Seabug..... who ever wrote that report about the flares setting off an explosion in the boat or who ever told the reporter this was also talking out his arse.

Those that wish to give long hypothetical what if speaches......please save your breath. Now that it has been established that it is in fact Illegal to carry said out of date flares it doesnt need to be said that those that CHOSE to carry a second set as a back up are not going to be letting the powers to be, know they have them on board. Seems pretty strait forward doesn't it?

Keep the in date ones easy at hand in an emergency (inside the yellow V sheet container) and Black leccy tape the crap out of the old ones and stick em in the bottom of your storage seat etc. In an emergency the new ones get used????? and if time permits (dead battereis- no VMR comunication) the old ones get brought out and untaped. Seems pretty simple doesn't it.

I can not forsee one circumstance where this could get anyone in trouble.

AND FOR THE RECORD OUT OF DATES FLARES ARE NOT DANGEROUS



< I actually let one go off at the workshop about 6 months ago, when i lite it and threw it to the ground it exploded... so dont tell me there not dangerous... although having said that it was 7 years out of date :O

[Mr__Bean]

what Act is that under???


Can anyone answer this yet?

Until someone can quote the legislation it is still perception to me.

Does anyone have contact details for Dennis Denuto?

- Darren

[Lovey80]

< I actually let one go off at the workshop about 6 months ago, when i lite it and threw it to the ground it exploded... So dont tell me there not dangerous... Although having said that it was 7 years out of date :O

Mate I can garantee it had nothing to do with being out of date!

Cheers

Chris

[CreelReaper]

Chris,
I am curious as to why you believe that flares which are out of date are not dangerous. How can you guarantee that these things are not as dangerous as is being portrayed??

There must be a reason that flares have a use by date that is regulated.(apart from misfire that is which is around 10% for new ones from what I have read)
Flares as I understand it are an explosive.

There must be more to it than the supply company or manufacturer just putting a 3 year lifespan on flares just to get a quicker resale for the next set????

If they are not dangerous or do not pose a threat then why are they regulated and banned from use after the expiry date?? Why has it been regulated not to use these out of date flares.
Do you have explosives knowhow or a firey or somebody with first hand knowledge that us mere mortals do not have access to??

Not having a go mate but genuinely wanting to understand if we are all being hoodwinked, or whether it is similar to a lot of OH & S stuff that has truly gone overboard.

Shane

[fishing111]

I'm at a bit of a loss over this whole flare thing. The guy from MSQ on Nugget's radio show said point blank it's not illegal to carry extra flares as a back up "with in date one's". I'm assuming he's meaning to rotate them, therefore keeping the one's you have just replaced with new one's and not some that are 15 years old. Anyway that's what I have done for ages, and will keep doing so now without the worry of getting pinged. I realise some people are concerned about grabbing the wrong flares in an emergency and finding they won't ignite, so that is there call. But I personally can't see any reason why it's not worth hanging onto the extras, as for me, the positives outweigh the negatives. One final point is that the guy from MSQ would have come in armed with the answers, as I believe Nugget gave him the heads up first.

[Kerry]

Lovely80, YOU are an absolute disgrace with your stupidity and arogrant comments of idiotic proportions that any boating person with any common sense understands for what it is.

It would appear many want to believe what THEY WANT TO BELIEVE instead of actually understanding the way it actually is.

To these people you really need to get over your OWN stupidity and idiotic comments.

As for the acts concerned then I believe this has everything to do with the explosive act (in most states) and mining act under the control of mines inspectorate.

Regardless if you like this or not then you better get used to it as what some of you think YOU want, think YOU know better then tuff, time to stop being bad examples to the majority of boating people who accept rules for the right reasons.

[Kerry]

I'm at a bit of a loss over this whole flare thing. The guy from MSQ on Nugget's radio show said point blank it's not illegal to carry extra flares as a back up "with in date one's". I'm assuming he's meaning to rotate them, therefore keeping the one's you have just replaced with new one's and not some that 15 years old. Anyway that's what I have done for ages, and will keep doing so now without the worry of getting pinged. I realise some people are concerned about grabbing the wrong flares in an emergency and finding they won't ignite, so that is there call. But I personally can't see any reason why it's not worth hanging onto the extras, as for me, the positives outweigh the negatives. One final point is that the guy from MSQ would have come in armed with the answers, as I believe Nugget gave him the heads up first.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the guy from MSQ it is totally out of his area, this is what you people need to understand, and understand quickly. It is legally not the call of the MSQ.

[fishing111]

Kerry take this anyway you want! I'll listen to the MSQ guy over you any day!

You say we must blindly follow your..."i believe" statement and not from a guy in charge..yeah right Kerry, I'll believe you:)



As for the acts concerned then I believe this has everything to do with the explosive act (in most states) and mining act under the control of mines inspectorate.

[Kerry]

Kerry take this anyway you want! I'll listen to the MSQ guy over you any day!

This being that YOU want to hear WHAT YOU want to hear and has nothing to do with common sense or fact.

The MSQ guy is talking crap and the sooner all MSQ guys understand the facts then people like you won't be running around mouthing off about something you obviously know nothing about. This is coming through loud and strong you and associates are talking crap.

[fishing111]

Mate your the one running around with unsubstantiated facts. Back up your facts or shut up harping! Your "I believe" bit is pointless without FACTS.

[Kerry]

Mate your the one running around with unsubstantiated facts. Back up your facts or shut up harping! Your "I believe" bit is pointless without FACTS.

Listen CLOWN you obvsiouly woulndn't know the difference between FACTS and where the sun shines!

Have spoken on several occasions to Chief Inspectors regard this subject and the inspectorate are quite aware of the FACTS and where distress signals fit into their responsibility. When push comes to shove they know exactly what the FACTS are and these FACTS leave you as the typical bitching idiot that you are.

The point is buddy they will throw the book at idiots, the MSQ have no authority in this regard and the quicker DH's like you understand this the better.

When you can deny the above then please feel free to come back and state your case without your poor ATTITUDE.

[Kerry]

Certainly does appear there is a stuuborn anti authority mob that simply can't accept it the way it is.

For those that want "extra" flares then feel freee to carry extra in date flares. Update your flares every 18 months for an 8 pack or 12 months if you think you need a 12 pack.

As pointed out by somone above the extra cost over 12 months is SFA so stop your bitching defiant anti-social idiotic attitude.

[Kerry]

Will someone (apart from the idiots) actually point out what the pathetic defiant, negative, anti-social, unsafe attitude is all about?

[fishing111]

Mate your like a little kid who dosn't get his way..Grow up! If your so sure the MSQ guy is wrong, then PROVE him wrong. Go ask your Chief Inspector, I'm sure he'll help you out ..that is if only to get your winging ass out the door a little quicker! Until then mate DROP the attitude! On a final note KERRY, you are nothing more than a total ####WIT. How many forum's in the US is it now that think your a total tool? Seriously your a total bloody LOSER! Get a life. How many times has a DH like yourself got to hear it for it to sink in?

[Horse]

Gee its good to have Kerry back on board to set us all straight:-X

Kerry, the guys are not arguing with you they just want the act that supports your claim

[finga]

yeah, good to see ya matey :D

[Pridey]

I use a rediculous amount of flares for work. They dont have expiry dates... some of them have been manufacured before some people on the forum were probably born. Yes we have about 10% missfires. however thats across the board, 2 years old or 15. I've never had one do anything dangerous unless they've been set off incorrectly..

I for one will always carry my old ones as spares. Keep the rate of illum up for longer, more likey to be seen and saved. if I have a missfire, she'll go over the side.

I cant believe this is even a question......

[age]

Ok

Ready to duck... I work for the Dept of Mines and Energy and contacted our Explosives branch today for validation of the flare out of date issue. They indicated that an out of date flare becomes an "unauthorised explosive" on date of expiry under the Explosives Act 1999. There for you are not to have them in your possession and will be fined under that act if caught with them by an Explosives Inspector. They said they will send the relevant part of the act to me tomorrow and a safety poster with these details outlined

Will post again tomorrow when my email arrives and will ask the Inspectorate to also contact Nuggets show for clarification

Scary that different Govt departments are giving different advice.


Thanks

A

[finga]

So how many explosive inspectors inspect boats?

[Kerry]

As normal many conveniently miss the enitre point (some more than others) but then what's new, this poor childish attitude appear to be accepted practice for some. Yes we know who you are :)

Reagrdless of what many WANT to believe flares are a distress signals are classified as explosive devices and hence have an expiring date after which you can not legally transport them, why because they have EXPIRED!!!!!.

MSQ inspectors have no authority in this matter, MSQ inspectors have no authority to advise otherwise and if MSQ inspectors continue to crap on then perhaps they should start changing the legislation to support their very very incorrect and poor advice. Let me tell you they won't even get to first base.

If you can't handle this plain english description and requirement then please continue the pathetic negative defiant attitude.

I can't help you or your attitude.

[Kerry]

Kerry, the guys are not arguing with you they just want the act that supports your claim

Obviously mate then they can't read or is that don't want to read or can't handle what they read or don't want to believe what they read, ignore what they read.

Not really sure why if you tell someone what act/s things are covered under they turn around and ask the same stupid question again.

[PinHead]

well kerry..you have espoused your opinion..tell me what the legislation is..not your opinion of it but the actual Act..so how about some plain english responses with the actual legislation????

[mod5]

This Thread Is Now Locked And Will Remain That Way Until Someone Pm's Me The Actual Legislation That States It Is Illegal To Either Own, Use Or Transport Out Of Date Flares. I will then post that information and reopen the thread.

The bickering going on here is not helping anyone.

[mod5]

I have received some very interesting PM's with information provided by Government Departments. I will now reopen this thread for this information to be placed on the forum by those people.

Thanks to everyone for the responses.

Please let's not start the arguments and bickering again.

[CreelReaper]

Thanks mod5,
Well guys, here is a copy of an email response that I received from the Senior Inspector of Explosives, Department of Employment, Economic Development and Innovation.

I also had a telephone chat with him and he made it abundantly clear his thoughts on people who kept flares that were out of date. He is also a boatie and seemed to know of both the Podcast with Nugget and this post.
Pretty well cut and dried I believe.

Happy fishing

Shane

p.s. The poster Kirk has supplied is too large to upload so if anybody wants a copy of it send me a PM with email address and I wil forward it to you.


Shane


Thank you for your email.


Explosives in Queensland are regulated under the Explosives Act 1999 and Explosives Regulation 2003 which is administered by the Explosives Inspectorate within the Safety and Health Division of Mines and Energy.


All explosives require authorisation by the Chief Inspector of Explosives having regard to specifications such as the design, composition and formulation, intended use and operation, classification and shelf life (or expiry date), amongst other things. Section 11 of the Explosives Act 1999 makes it an offence for any person to manufacture, possess, sell, store, transport or use an unauthorised or prohibited explosive and imposes a maximum penalty of $40,000 or 6 months imprisonment.


Distress signals have been granted a generic authorisation in Queensland that covers a number of pyrotechnics including marine flares. This authorisation is specific to the manufacturers stipulated shelf life. This means that any distress signals which are past their expiry date are technically outside the conditions of their authorisation and should not be used further. There is good reason why these products are given a shelf life by the manufacturer. The nominated life span provides a high level of confidence that the distress signal will function safely to a specified performance criteria.


To a varying degree all explosives will deteriorate over time and may well become unstable, possibly hazardous and no longer perform to the manufacturer’s original specification. In the case of distress signals, this counteracts the original purpose or intent of the product in that it may not safely function and perform as intended.


It is acknowledged that there will be circumstances where there is a genuine need to handle distress signals that are outside of their shelf life, such as transporting them for disposal.


However the practice of keeping expired distress signals in a vessel for back-up use in emergency situations is a dangerous practice with the potential to do more harm than good. The manufacturer no longer warrants the safe operation of expired distress signals and they should be disposed of correctly. If a person is of the belief that their vessel required a back-up set of flares, then they should ensure that these are within the manufacturers shelf life. The cost to replace a set of flares in comparison to the cost of the vessel, equipment and the safety on those on board is negligible.


The attached poster provides information on the proper disposal of marine flares and buoys.


Regards



Kirk Grant | Senior Inspector of Explosives | Explosives Inspectorate | Safety and Health


Mines and Energy | Department of Employment, Economic Development and Innovation


Tel: (07) 3222 2469 | Mob: 0429 474 016 | Fax: (07) 3224 7768

[Mister]

You cut and dried that one Shane. Now where does this leave the MSQ inspectors?

Maybe Nugget could call these inspectors back and ask for a please explain?

[seatime]

The guy from MSQ on Nuggets podcast was only half right and telling only half the story.
He was right in saying there's nothing in the Transport Operations (Marine Safety) Act 1994 or Regulations 2004 that prevents you carrying expired flares, provided you have in-date ones onboard.
What wasn't explained was that enforcement officers (water police & fisheries) may interpret carrying expired flares as a possible breach of the General Safety Obligation. Breaching Explosives regulations wasn't mentioned either.
Whether or not police & fisheries can enforce explosives regs, I dunno?

Where he was wrong was about halfway thru the podcast saying MSQ had no position on carrying expired or unapproved safety gear e.g. flares, but left it up to the operator to decide. That's just crap and is probably his own personal position!
The "Guide to Recreational Boating & Fishing in Queensland" says, and the General Manager's stated MSQ position (I have this in writing) is, "that flares, once expired, should be removed from a vessel and disposed of appropriately. As per the manufacturers recommendations.

[age]

All

Kirk Grant from DME Explosives has contacted MSQ after I put him on to the 4BC/Nugget podcast - they were very disappointed in MSQ's approach as they had spoken to the guy from MSQ on this topic the week before. They will also follow up for a reply on Nuggets show. I spoke to Kirk just after he replied to Shane and I agree the stance is cut and dried. He warned of insurance implications in a catostrophic event as you will have been deemed as carrying unauthorised explosives - goodbye insurance.

Thanks

A

[moater]

Old flares are Great for showing off a home barbies

And soccer matches!

[finga]

I think someone at MSQ is going to be matted next week.
Thank you those who got the information from the horses mouth and settled the argument once and for all.

Good to see you back Kerry. Keep it up matey :D

[dnej]

Yes, that is what I said.
I was contacted by the battery, when I tried to run the flare demo day, months ago, in regards to getting the manufactures to allow the extension for the demo. The answer was no
David
My quote was as below

I checked ages ago on the flares,and it is actually illegal to keep flares that are out of date.That part has nothing to do with boating,just legislation.That is why I couldnt have the flare day I almost organised.

David

[CreelReaper]

The problem as I see it is we have too many authorities. You can't do this, you can't do that. Yes you can - No you can't. Each department has its own heirachy and woe behold those that seem to cross the line. At the end of the day it isn't an issue with MSQ because it isn't their regulation!!!:-/
It would be a hell of a lot simpler to have one regulation for one and all that is policed by one.
It would also help if the powers that be wrote the rules and regulations in plain engrish so us muttonheads can understand!!!!!:P

Oh and I would be careful letting off flares for any other reason than a distress!!!!! And no, watching the opposing team scoring a goal is NOT considered distressing enough :P ;)

Shane

[Nugget]

Seems I've opened up a can of worms here.
I think it highlights what I was saying in the first place... - who is steering the ship? - too many cooks!
How is the average boatie supposed to know, when the authorities are bickering over the regulations themselves!



They will also follow up for a reply on Nuggets show. Nobody from Safety and Health, Mines and Energy, Department of Employment, Economic Development and Innovation has made any attempt to contact me.




It would be a hell of a lot simpler to have one regulation for one and all that is policed by one. It would also help if the powers that be wrote the rules and regulations in plain English so us muttonheads can understand EXACTLY MY POINT


Recently we had one Water Police officer warning people fishing out of tenders in the southern Bay that they were breaking the regulations. This was one person's interpretation of the regulations. Through the right channels we were able to get the officer informed of the correct interpretation and the issue has now gone away.

Just to clarify on the issue of required safety equipment - as far as MSQ are concerned, carrying unapproved safety equipment (PFD, EPIRBS etc - let's leave flares out of this for the moment) is not an offence if you have the required safety equipment on board OR you are in an area that does not require that safety equipment.
In other words you can have 10 unapproved PFD’s on board provided you have enough ‘approved’ PFDs on board. You can have a 121 EPIRB on board if you are in an area that does not need one or if you have a 403 EPIRB as well as the 121 in an area that does require one. (Why you would want to carry a 121 is a mystery) In these situations, you are not breaching regulations.

Recently we had Water Police warning people for this specific issue – one guy was warned while at a garage filling his boat with fuel that if he put his boat in the water he would be booked – he had a 121 EPIRB and was heading to Mud Isl – where you are not required to have one.

As far as MSQ are concerned flares are covered under the same consideration HOWEVER - I think it is fair to say other authorities have the power to book you under other legislation - the explosive's ACT.
As far as I can find out, nobody has ever been booked under this ACT for having expired marine flares – not to say it hasn’t happened – I just can’t find any incidences.

My point is to highlight the ridiculous management of marine regulations in this state / country. Currently you can be booked by DERM (used to be EPA), National Parks, Water Police, DPI, MSQ – just to mention a few.
We need one on water authority – like many other countries in the world have had for many years.

Nugget ><>
PS – Tomorrow (Sun May 2) I’m tackling the issue of capacity labels – MSQ will make some interesting comments about them as well – another can of worms.

[finga]

And all that's if you just stay in Queensland.

Go for a throw over the border and then there's another can of worms to sort through and learn.
I pity the poor buggers down the Goldy.
No wonder I have no time to fish. I'm too busy reading rules and regs for 2 states.
I don't know why the difference in boating regulations between NSW and QLD.

t's all the same water and I reckon you have just as much chance of getting into strife in either state but NO....the people in power deem there is a difference.
It's a fact that QLD'ers have very poor eye sight as the boat rego numbers need to be 200mm high here but in NSW they must have more carrots or something because their numbers only need to be 150mm high. Go figure.
And then I still cannot for the life of me work out why if I need 200mm high numbers on my tinny so the boys in blue can see them why do jetski's only need 100mm high numbers?? And they go 50 times faster
Maybe it's my teeny weeny brain :-/

[seatime]

PS – Tomorrow (Sun May 2) I’m tackling the issue of capacity labels – MSQ will make some interesting comments about them as well – another can of worms.

Didn't get to hear the interview.
Were these worms as grey looking as the contents of some previous cans?

[BaitThrower]

Basically they said, just fit a capacity label in the right location (whether or not you have a proper Australian builder's plate) and you will have no problems whatsoever.

[Lovey80]

Finga you make some very good points as usual. Gee I missed this thread for a while. I seem to spark a nerve with kerry don't I. I think Ill let that one be;)

Cheers

Chris

[Mister]

Have we all ditched our out of date flares now that we all know what is right?

[Lovey80]

Hell no! I have them double bagged with thick garbage bags and Silver gaffa tape around 8 of em. As I said in an emergency my in-date ones are sealed in a yellow container with my V sheet that will float. They get grabbed. If not in imminent danger the others will get opened up (like I lose all power to the boat and cant get started)

Cheers

Chris