Flowcoat Color Matching

[svranjic]

Yesterday I decided to get underneith the boat and fix the dodgie repair job undertaken by the previous owner.

Previous owner had used gelcoat repair kit to fix scrapes / scratches on the keel and various other parts of the hull. Nothing major but he didnt do a very good job and the stuff has turned yellow over time in the water. Obviously the boat has been beached often due to wearing of the keel, other damage seemed to be from trailer retrieval.

So I sanded back all areas where the putty had been used right back to the original paintwork. Cleaned with acetone, then when out and baught myself a tin of white flowcoat + some MEKP.

Came home, applied flowcoat with brush and allowed to dry. Lightly wet sanded it today to make it smooth.

However the color match is pretty far off, My hull is a sort of a white / grayish. Should I have mixed a bit of black pigment into the flowcoat? or am I wasting my time trying to get the color to match? After all it is belowb the water I guess

[sharkcat one]

HI SVRANJIC,

Flowcoat is only used for painting the inside of your boat , not the outside. you will need to use gelcoat with some pigment to match the colour . Flowcoat will not withstand the outside conditions , may crack and peel . Flowcoat has no uv stablizers and will turn bright yellow with time. You should be able to buy some gelcoat from your nearest boat repairer or contact FGI or Marineware and they will sell you the right gear.

Cheers.

[svranjic]

Gday sharkcat one

Im a bit confused. I only put the flowcoat on because of a couple of threads I read on this forum suggesting to do so....

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=121399&highlight=flowcoat

And

http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=66139&highlight=flow+coat+grand+marlin


I really hope I dont need to sand the whole lot back again!!! :-/

[Grand_Marlin]

I certainly hope I am not wrong, or I have about 5000 boats to re-do on Sharkcat 1's advice ;D


Flowcoat will be fine for what you have done.

The bright yellow effect he is talking about is rather exagerated.
The UV will take the bright white appearance out over time, which is exactly what you are after - re: colour matching.

It sounds like you have it under control.

Cheers

Pete

[svranjic]

Cheers for that Grand_Marlin

So there is no need to try and add color pigment to the flowcoat in order to get a color match? Simply leave the bright white flowcoat as it is now and the UV will slowly dull the color down until it matches the rest of the boat?

Is this what would have been done if I had it proffessionally looked at? I hate to think how much they would have wanted

[sharkcat one]

Hi Guys,

Ok I may have exagerated a bit on the bright yellow , but it will change colour.

Grand Marlin I understand why boat repairers use flowcoat on repairs, it's because it is easier to sand and you don't have the stickyness of gelcoat.
There are about 3 ways to get rid of the stickyness out of a gelcoat repairs
1-- use a material called patch aid or patch booster at about 10 to 20%
2-- use a material called wax'n'styrene at about 6 to 10% ( only use this method if you know what you are doing )
3-- use straight gelcoat and when it starts to gel, spray PVA out of a gun onto
the repair , this will form a skin on the repair and you just sand through it.

I am a firm believer when repairing a boat you use the same material that the boat is made from. So many times I see a boat owner with a boat which has had a repair done about 3+ years ago which the repairer has used 2-pac on the gelcoated boat hull for the repair. And the repair is peeling off , I feel sorry for the boat owner because he has paid out so much money for the repair not to last.
A repair sould last just as long as the life of the boat. If the top coat of a boat is 2-pac then repair it in 2-pac, gelcoat hull -- gelcoat repair, flowcoat hull --- flowcoat repair, epoxy hull --- epoxy repair and so on . Gelcoat has a life of about 25+ years, flowcoat 10+ years, 2-pac 7 years, this is why you should repair your boat in the same material as it is built.

This is NOT a shot at Grand Marlin I have heard alot of positive feed back from boat owners who's boats he has repaired and I believe he does an excellent job.

This reply is to help boat owners make an informed decision about the repair being done on their boat because there is alot of doggy repair people out there willing to tell you anything to take your money.

Also to the boat owner when you are getting your quote done make sure the boat repairer does not use car bog or pink nikki in the repair as to much of this product will absorb water and crack over time. they should use materials like
pro-bond or vinyl ester bog or vinyl ester faring putty or locker bog etc.

To the person who started this thread , there is no need to redo the repair on your boat if it lasts 10+ years excellent , if not just repair it a different way.


To the people who are repairing gelcoated hulls & decks with 2-pac , STOP doing it , it is giving the rest of us a bad name. If you don't know how to do a gelcoat repair without getting a coffee stain ring or hallow be man enough to say that you cannot do this and refer the owner to someone that can.

Well that's my two cents worth.
cheers

[svranjic]

The flowcoat that I painted on still looks crap though!!! :)

Looks like a backyard job........

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Sharkcat,

I agree with not using the 2 pac gelcoat repair putties for this type of work.

The gelcoat / flowcoat debate is not an issue for the type of repairs I do.
Talk to me about repairs on trailer boats, then talk to me about under water applications for permanently moored boats, then I will engage in debate over gelcoat with wax in styrene vs flowcoat.

Both gelcoat and flowcoat will change colour.

The time frames you give for life expectancy of gelcoat, sorry, I don't agree with.

If I had any doubts over my repair methods & products I wouldn't do them.
I have both products in stock and use each one when and where it is needed.

Svranjic,

There are certain methods I use for getting the best out of repairs.
Yes, you get what you pay for.

Take a look at the before & after pics of the repairs to this dash.
Same approach as I would use for your boat.

Cheers

Pete

[svranjic]

Looks fantastic Grand_Marlin

Tell us how you did it :D

I guess my question is if you were repairing the hull and keel on my boat, would you have used the stock white flowcoat and left the flowcoat to slowly dull in color over time - Or would you have mixed pigment into the flowcoat to make a closer match to the color of my hull?

Eventually I am going to get the boat off the trailer and onto stand so I can properly fix all scraped etc underneith hull and on keel. Currently the rollers stop me from doing it all.

Cheers

[BM]

Svranjic,

To answer your original question mate, colour pigments are available to mix the flowcoat to the required colour or close to it.

If you were to speak with every boat repairer around the country and ask them how would they "recoat" the surface of a boat you will find a tiny percentage who would actually spray the boat in flowcoat/gelcoat. The rest use 2 pack paint.

This debate has occured for a while on the down south forum too..

[TJ Bear]

When repairing any composite the place to start is to replace like for like. This includes the laminate removed, resin system used, core replaced. This is not my standard it is the standard for the Australian Composite Institute, Loyds and USLC.

Sorry Grand Marlin but the correct way to repair a gel coat repair is to use gel coat not flow coat. You may at times be able to get an acceptable result using flow coat on a white hull but it is still not the correct way to do it.

Personally I don't even like using patch aid or wax and styrene however at Riv we do as we need to get on to the repair quickly and patch aid facilitates a quicker process. If you spray your gel coat repair and give it time to harden up the tacky feel will go in about 24hrs.

As for below the waterline on a moored boat where the repair is going to be antifouled over I can't see any difference. Do you know what flow coat is made from? How do you repair a blue slab side hull with flow coat? The only way I have repaired slab sided colour hulls and I have done a few is to get the original colour gel coat from the manafacturer if its a new boat or use tint cards to match colours and tint the gel myself on older faded hulls.

[TJ Bear]

BM when it comes to refinishing an entire hull you could do it in gel coat but would be a huge job to do it right and cost a fortune in labour to fair it up as gel coat is bloody hard. Most economical way to do it is definatly 2 pack. At Riv all our boats are gel coated white and 2 packed the colour the customer wants, this is for boot stripes or slab side colour, you will find all big boat builders do the same. All composite super yachts are 2 packed. If I was rebuilding an old boat I would 2 -pack as the thought of doing it in gel coat gives me nightmares of weeks on a torture board looking at a hull covered in guide coat. This is however different to a repair on a reasonably small area not requiring the entire hull to be re finished. A repair I would always use like for like.

[svranjic]

Seems I need to by some black pigment and try to tint the white flowcoat to make it a little more gray.

Sigh Its going to be a total bitch sanding this back (again).

Probably not as bad as sanding back the gelcoat repair putty.....

To be honest it doesnt really bother me what I use to repair it, as long as it will prevent water leakage and be unnoticeable. I guess everyone is different and will use different methods weather it be 2 pac or gelcoat or flowcoat.

Flowcoat seems pretty easy to use, just trying to match the color which is the annoying part.

Work on the boat continues......

[cormorant]

I was always told that flowcoat is just gelcoat with styrene monomer and wax in it so it will air dry????? Probably a simplistic expaination?

How much harder is gelcoat compared to flowcoat?

A lot od decks on 20year old boats were done in that baby poo brown colour as back there wasn't a UV stabilised geyl coat avaliable and the white colours would go yellow brown anyway.

Should also say that a lot of people don't realise that gelcoat is not 100% waterproof and they is why antifouled boats use a barrier coat underneath them to prevent osmosis. New gelcoats are better than 20 year old stuff.

Lots of myths with get=l coats and flowcoats

[Grand_Marlin]

Sorry Grand Marlin but the correct way to repair a gel coat repair is to use gel coat not flow coat. You may at times be able to get an acceptable result using flow coat on a white hull but it is still not the correct way to do it.

Au contraire Mr. Bear.

The products mentioned have such subtle differences (i.e. fillers) that when used for minor repair work the difference in performance is negligible.

There is plenty of literature around to support what I do, there is plenty of literature around to support what you do, and there is plenty of literature around to support a gelcoat build up with a flowcoat topping that meets us in the middle.

The key to repairs is preventing water infiltration to the FRP Matrix, is it not?

Maybe, just maybe, I have developed a technique for ground up flowcoat repairs that works.

Cheers

Pete

[lippa]

your method is that shit::) pete, i cant even see where you repaired deano's cat!;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D

[TJ Bear]

Grand Marlin there are many types of flow coat and how they are manafactured varies greatly, most people have no idea what they are using. Most companies will not even go into detail as to what constitutes up to 15% of the flow coat as they will tell you its proprierty information. Most flow coats are based on a polyester base resin and have high levels of filler, styrene and solvent. It is possible to get flow coat that is based on Isothalic polyester resin, vinyalester resin even epoxy but these are very hard to find in Australia. I have just gone through the exercise of sourcing fire retardent flow coat for our fuel tanks. Most gel coats used by boat builders today are based on CCP or NPG technology, are Vinyalester based, have very low levels of styrene, very low levels of filler, no wax and low if any solvent and as such are far more expensive. Go to FGI and price a kilo of white flow coat and a kilo of Ulratec 1000 gelcoat and see the difference. Old technology gelcoats that where poyester based are like you said not waterproof, neither for that matter is the ployester resin used to build the boat, however most manafacturers of newer boats have been using VE based gel coats for quiet a number of years.

Even a VE based Flow coat with its increased levels of styrene, fillers, wax and solvent will not adhere to a substrate as well as a VE based gel coat and if your using a plain Jane polyester flow coat you will not even be in the ball park, VE being based on a cured epoxy molecule has far better mechanical adhesive qualities (up to 30% better) than anythying built on a poyester molecule.

If flow coat was so good we would use it to coat the boats in the mould instead of gel coat as its cheaper and easy to spray and does not tripe as easy but the high wax content would prevent bonding to the laminate thats why when you use a waxed polyster resin you have to grind the surface before laminating over to ensure you get a mechanical bond.

You may be getting acceptable results doing the repairs the way you are but it still is not best practice.

Prove me wrong based on the chemistry of the materials and real world testing results and I will eat my words, I have access to a lab at work and if you like I will do an excellerated ageing test on a poylester test panel gel coated white with CCP gel coat. Test panel one will have a poylester based flow coat repair, test panel two a vinylester flow coat repair and panel three will have a CCP gel coat repair and you can see the difference yourself if you like, we have the ability to age a laminate approximatly 8 -10 years in about 5 days. I have done this test before for our detailing department down on the water and there is even a difference in the gel coat repair where patch aid is used and as for the flow coated repair there is up to 6 shades of difference between the flow coat and gel coat areas. If you want to test your own methods I am more than happy to test a panel which you have repaired to see the difference.

I also have the facility to test for sheer, flexual and compresive strengths, viscosity, burn test for resin to glass ratio, we have to do all our own independant tests for new materials, new laminate schedules etc and we test and record all through hull cutouts to ensure we meet quality standards for resin to glass ratio and laminates are barcol tested out of the mould, at 7 and 21 days to ensure correct post curing. Barcol a flow coat repair and gel coat repair 10 days after the job is done the float coat will barcole low 20's and the CCP gel coat in the the high 30 to low 40"s (barcol is a measure of hardness) When we have to do a major repair we test the repair laminate in the lab before moving to the job.

Hey I may be wrong but you are going to have to prove it.

[BM]

BM when it comes to refinishing an entire hull you could do it in gel coat but would be a huge job to do it right and cost a fortune in labour to fair it up as gel coat is bloody hard. Most economical way to do it is definatly 2 pack. At Riv all our boats are gel coated white and 2 packed the colour the customer wants, this is for boot stripes or slab side colour, you will find all big boat builders do the same. All composite super yachts are 2 packed. If I was rebuilding an old boat I would 2 -pack as the thought of doing it in gel coat gives me nightmares of weeks on a torture board looking at a hull covered in guide coat. This is however different to a repair on a reasonably small area not requiring the entire hull to be re finished. A repair I would always use like for like.

Hmmm.. very interesting TJ. Indeed!! I had heard that about the super yachts but was unaware about the big cruisers.

Hehe... I know a repairer in the NSW area who would adamantly tell you that you are building your boats wrongly!! Your response here has put a broad smile on my face ;D ;D

This fellow reckons that its as fast or faster to resurface a customers boat in gelcoat/flowcoat tan 2K paint.....

cheers mate and hows Riv holding up in the current market? I had heard a number of deposit placers had walked away from their 50K deposit as the crunch started to set in. Rough water ahead industry wide......

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Bear,

We can argue on here all day and not achieve a whole lot.
If you like, next time I am at Riviera picking up parts we could catch up, compare notes and have a look through your testing facilities.
I will even bring a test panel for you to play with.

In the real world, I am more than happy with the results I am getting for colour and longevity but I would be interested in testing a polyester based flowcoat and a polyester based gelcoat with wax in styrene repair on an aged polyester based test panel in your UV age accelerator to confirm a few things.

There are a number of factors with what I do, on what boats, and why, that you have not considered.

A lot of my repairs are done on older polyester based boats where the customer wants to fix aesthetics like "stone chip" size holes, stress cracks, filling old screw holes etc etc in a way that gives a good end product at an acceptable price.
The properties of flowcoat suit this application perfectly.

Maybe you could have also asked where we source our products and what brand/s we use.
For the record it is often obtained from the boat manufacturer - especially for newer boats and colour matching.
A lot of times it is not possible or practical to do this, especially for minor works on imported boats and older boats.

You may have also asked what size projects I take on, and is it practical to use your methods for the type of repairs that I do, taking into account that I do most of my repairs as a mobile concern.

Other considerations, like yesterday, we were replacing a Humminbird sounder with a new Lowrance HDS 5 Combo.
The old screw holes in the dash needed filling as the new bracket had a different footprint.
The repairs were done with flowcoat, sanded, polished and complete within 2 hrs.
This enabled us to get the job finished in the alloted time and without the owner incurring significant cost.

Each job has to be assessed on its merits... whether it is cutting edge technology respraying the latest gelcoat into a large repair (like you do), or just minor cosmetic works (like I do), then the approach and product type is going to be different every time.

Anyway Bear, I look forward to catching up.

Cheers

Pete

[svranjic]

If I want to ad a little bit of black pigment to the flowcoat to make it a very light gray is it ok to add it to white flowcoat or do I need to get natural flowcoat and mix the white and black in?

Cant leave it the way it is, looks stupid.

Il leave everyone to argue over correct methods etc :D

Im just a poor student lookin to do a good unnoticeable job of fixing some scrapes underneith my first boat.

[TJ Bear]

Your 100% right Grand Marlin and I'm sure the work you do is great and exceeds the expectations of your customers, I can get on my high horse at times when it comes to technical composite discussion. Your right also that most of the repairs I have to do myself are major structural repairs on boats from 40ft to 70ft where we are replacing large amounts of both the laminate and internal structure.

BM: Riv is holding up better than could be expected when you consider that most of our competition have either gone under or on extended shut down. Searay has closed 2 of its 3 plants sacking over 4000 staff, Cabo is on extended shutdown with the moulds put in storage same with Hatterras. We are actually in a better position right now than we where 9 months ago as we have slashed our global inventory. I am flat chat as the boats we are selling alot of are the 44 Sports Yacht and the new 58ft Sports Yacht and both are my babies as they are vacuum infused. I expect the next 12 months to be tough but we are already seeing some bounce back in the Asian market with recent orders coming in from India and China. One area that is hurting new boat sales in the US is the huge drop in used boat prices over there. There is so many 30 to 50ft boats on the market some have decreased in value by over 50% in 12 months, so your 12 month old Cabo that cost you 1.2m a year ago is now worth 600k that makes it difficult for you to get out of it and into something else even if you have the money but as I said Asia is coming back quicker than expected.

[Grand_Marlin]

Thanks Bear, appreciate that.

Svranjic, eat your heart out mate - mix away.
Add the black to the white, no need to buy natural for that.

While you are at it, buy some 180, 400 and 1200 wet & dry.
Rub the repairs back until they are flush with the hull and then you will only see the repaired area, not a big patch like you have now.

Cheers

Pete

[snelly1971]

Thanks Bear, appreciate that.

Svranjic, eat your heart out mate - mix away.
Add the black to the white, no need to buy natural for that.

While you are at it, buy some 180, 400 and 1200 wet & dry.
Rub the repairs back until they are flush with the hull and then you will only see the repaired area, not a big patch like you have now.

Cheers

Pete


I have got plenty for you to practice on here Pete at Xmas...LOL


Mick

[Grand_Marlin]

No problems Mick, I will use my special mix for you ... Dulux sample pot of white paint mixed with chicken gravox to thicken, then let it set overnight in the frost :-*

[BM]

Your 100% right Grand Marlin and I'm sure the work you do is great and exceeds the expectations of your customers, I can get on my high horse at times when it comes to technical composite discussion. Your right also that most of the repairs I have to do myself are major structural repairs on boats from 40ft to 70ft where we are replacing large amounts of both the laminate and internal structure.

BM: Riv is holding up better than could be expected when you consider that most of our competition have either gone under or on extended shut down. Searay has closed 2 of its 3 plants sacking over 4000 staff, Cabo is on extended shutdown with the moulds put in storage same with Hatterras. We are actually in a better position right now than we where 9 months ago as we have slashed our global inventory. I am flat chat as the boats we are selling alot of are the 44 Sports Yacht and the new 58ft Sports Yacht and both are my babies as they are vacuum infused. I expect the next 12 months to be tough but we are already seeing some bounce back in the Asian market with recent orders coming in from India and China. One area that is hurting new boat sales in the US is the huge drop in used boat prices over there. There is so many 30 to 50ft boats on the market some have decreased in value by over 50% in 12 months, so your 12 month old Cabo that cost you 1.2m a year ago is now worth 600k that makes it difficult for you to get out of it and into something else even if you have the money but as I said Asia is coming back quicker than expected.

Thanks for the reply TJ.

Interesting you align yourself with the larger US builders. I hadn't considered that before now, in terms of target markets etc (I had been a little "locally insular" I think!!!).

I guess there are no surprises that orders are coming from India and China. They are the growing economies in current times and there are rapidly becomming a super rich amoung them.

Please pm me your details if you like and I would love to catch up with you in person the next time I am up your way.

cheers

[TJ Bear]

Over 70% of our production is export, at the Fort Luaderdale BoatShow in Florida (the biggest show in the US we easily outsold Hatteras, Viking and Cabo in 2007, 2008 and 2009. We even own our own Marina in the states.

[Grand_Marlin]

Gee that is interesting, and impressive - 70% sales overseas.
I had no idea it was that high, or more to the point I would have thought the local market was the main part of Riviera's business.

In saying that, when I was at the Houston boat show in 2003 I had a Polo shirt on with the Riviera logo on it.
The amount of people who recognised the logo was unbelievable.

They always asked "Y'all from Australia?" or "Y'all from Riviera"

So Riviera has had a very good name in the states for some time.

Cheers

Pete

[sharkcat one]

TJ BEAR,

If RIVERA is going so well, why have they shut their factory for 4 weeks ? ( I believe that there is a hand full of people working on the 70 only )

Wouldn't your biggest competition ( after all the boat companies closing down ) be MARITIMO ?
I see that MARITIMO are building and selling just as much or even more boats than you guys are. MARITIMO are also building a new model every 3 to 4 months.
If they keep building new models as fast as they are , one would think that they might run out of room to produce these new models soon , there factories at hope island and coomera seem to be to small to produce what they want.

Know of any large enough sheds and yards which might come available soon ?

Think about this -- why is Bill building so many new models in small
sheds ? and RIVERA are shutting down for
4 weeks ?

Makes you think doesn,t it ?

cheers