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Gary Fooks
29-01-2009, 04:03 PM
Hi all - this has been discussed before and i wrote articles which appeared in a few magazines. So sorry if its a repeat for you, but the NSW Government Media release is an excuse to spread the word again.

The NSW Government announced late last year that they would move to a mandatory 6% and then 10% ethanol by 2011. That would be an average across all fuel sales - but it will be hard to avoid at the pump - make sure you read the fine print on the bowser.

Ethanol (e10) is NOT cheaper. It is 3cpl cheaper but has 3% less energy - so at $1.10 it needs to be 3.3cpl cheaper just to break even - let alone the issues discussed below.

I hope this helps some one

Gary




NSW Maritime
Ethanol Fuel Warning for Boats - Media release

Thursday, 29 January 2009


Ethanol fuel caution for boats

NSW Maritime advises all boat owners to check with a local dealer about the suitability of ethanol mix fuels for their marine petrol engine.

NSW Maritime General Manager Recreational Boating and Regional Services Brett Moore said there was growing concern among boat operators about using ethanol mix fuels in their boats.

A number of risks have been identified including:
· Ethanol can affect some fibreglass fuel tanks because of its potential to act as a solvent;
· Ethanol can affect older fuel lines, seals and gaskets; and
· The fuel can separate into the petrol and ethanol components if condensation forms in the tank or where the fuel is stored for extended periods.

“Use of an inappropriate fuel can result in damage to the engine and boat components that may require repair or replacement,” Mr Moore said.

“Fuels with ethanol can attack some fuel-system components, such as tanks and lines if they are not made from acceptable ethanol-acceptable materials.

“The ethanol can soften some fibreglass or rubber components or can leach resins from other materials from rubber components which can foul filters, carburettors or injectors.

“Whilst some boat owners have tried to do the right thing in their quest to reduce their carbon footprint by choosing the greener option, NSW Maritime advises boat owners to check with their engine and boat dealer about the appropriate fuel choice,” Mr Moore said.


Media contact: Penny Robins 0407 220 111

Steeler
29-01-2009, 04:27 PM
Hi Gary

I worked on the road for a provider of outdoor power equipment spare parts ie ch/saws,mwr's etc and the damage that ethanol fuel can do particularly to seals and gaskets is a real concern,re-pairers love it keeps them busy machine owners who have fallen victim hate it.Me personally i pay the extra for the good stuff for all my gear car,outboard and lawncare equipment.

Cheers Steve

Peter4
29-01-2009, 04:32 PM
Thanks Gary, this is now becoming so well known that the Wello Point BP has stickers on its E10 bowsers stating that this fuel should not be used for boats.....

A good move by them!.......

Angla
29-01-2009, 05:05 PM
I pulled up at the BP as you come off the motorway into Kawana/Mooloolabah. Pulled up and grabbed the E10 handle when I heard over the loud speaker a warning from the operator inside that it was not to be used for marine engines. I thanked him for the warning and have always used the 95 Ron since. My Optimax is stated to require 92 Ron.

Thanks Gary for a timely reminder. Even if just one newby finds this out it is worthwhile to keep mentioning it.

Chris

robersl
29-01-2009, 05:14 PM
I have a 2008 40hp 3 cylinder 2 stroke yamaha the book for that says that this model engine has been built to take ethanol, but i am not going to use it

shane

Gary Fooks
29-01-2009, 05:22 PM
Three cheers for BP Kawana - thats a great story!


Your engine manufacturer will usually say - quite correctly , that their engine can cope - the problems are in the fuel tank, lines and in storage for more than 2 weeks.

cheers

gary

Chamelion
29-01-2009, 07:21 PM
Sure will be a problem when ALL petrol will be required to contain a certain ammount of ethanol.. Those of us with older outboards will be up shits creek.

Grand_Marlin
29-01-2009, 08:27 PM
Thanks Gary,

By the looks of it everyone is going to have trouble.

Even if your outboard is ethanol compliant, the storage time frame of 2 weeks will be a problem for all boat owners.

Is there any product that can be added to assist in the remixing or stopping the ethanol from separating?

Cheers

Pete

captain rednut
29-01-2009, 09:26 PM
hi i have repaired many late model four strokes in the last year that have broken down on ethenol fuel, mainly the carby model ones. not mentioning brands but be warned.

black runner
29-01-2009, 09:44 PM
hi i have repaired many late model four strokes in the last year that have broken down on ethenol fuel, mainly the carby model ones. not mentioning brands but be warned.

What sort of damage capn rednut?


Cheers

oldboot
29-01-2009, 09:58 PM
From what I understand....there has net been any serious progress on additives to prevent the seperation problem.

There will be significant difficulties solving this problem because of the way this happens.

clean good ethanol disolves ( not the correct term) and redily mixes with the petrochemical fuel......however the ethanol very redily combines with any water in the tank....once this the water ethanol mix reaches a cretain level the ethanol binds more redily with the water, and the water and ethanol drop out of the fuel and settle to the bottom of the tank.

My understanding is the only thing that will raise the point at which this occurs ( I don't think it can be completly eliminated) is some form of detergent like product....then you run the risk of the whole lot gelling.

It is my expectation that there will always have to be some high octane fuel that is ethanol free for both marine and avation use.

My local Woolworths petrol pluss has stickers on the E10 pumps saying that it isnt suitable for a variety of things.

cheers

hodges4
13-03-2009, 04:50 PM
Gary
I believe QLD has mandated 5% ethanol from 2010.
Do you know if there is any intention that there be some form of regular unleaded available after then for those of us who have older outboards. I have a carburetted 4 stroke 2001 Yamaha outboard and the manufacturer states regular unleaded. Same goes for the wifes car.

john

Mindi
13-03-2009, 05:40 PM
Gary
I believe QLD has mandated 5% ethanol from 2010.
Do you know if there is any intention that there be some form of regular unleaded available after then for those of us who have older outboards. I have a carburetted 4 stroke 2001 Yamaha outboard and the manufacturer states regular unleaded. Same goes for the wifes car.

john


But its not an "old outboard" problem...see Gary and others above. The problem is what it does to the fuel components from the tank to the motor as well. It's all very well for Mercury or BRP to say that the motor will handle E10 OK.... what do you do about the boat..?

Mindi
13-03-2009, 05:46 PM
Here is the Govt Action Plan

http://www.industry.qld.gov.au/dsdweb/v4/apps/web/content.cfm?id=7562

stevej
13-03-2009, 05:48 PM
its a problem for an boat that has a fuel sysstem with breathers where moisture laden air is repeatedly drawn in and out of the tank

dont affect cars as we empty our tanks weekly or sooner

TimiBoy
13-03-2009, 07:13 PM
My V-Rod is designed to handle 10%, as is the tank and fuel system. But, as Gary points out, you lose performance. I stick to 95 RON, and pop in some 98 occasionally. Book says it's fine, but won't make a difference.

Ethanol fuel is a con. Another sad, Greenie driven, bullsh!t con.

Tim

rowanda
13-03-2009, 07:56 PM
there are a few problems with E10. The biggest one is what happens when a "bit" of water gets mixed with it. It takes only 0.5% water content to make the ethanol seperate out of the fuel, so if you have 500ml (not much) water sloshing around a 100L tank look out. Yes some manufacturers say you can run e10 and you can, but if the water gets mixed, then basically 10% of your fuel will not be in a usable state (goes almost gunky/bubbly milky looking when it seperates)
It has its place and can be used in some cars, but don't put it in your boat.
With regards to all fuel containing ethanol after 2010 or 2011, thats not true, all regular unleaded will (govt regulation), but you will still be able to buy premium and higher that dont contain ethanol

hodges4
14-03-2009, 06:54 AM
I realise it will be a problem for the fuel system but will regular unleaded with no ethanol continue to be available after 2011 or is it going to be taken off the market by the government.

rowanda
15-03-2009, 07:52 PM
as far as I have heard there won't be reg 91 available anymore, only 91 will be
e-10 (govt rules)
looks like it'll be premium for all boats from then. As it is now, most marinas only sell premium anyway (from what i've seen anyway)

Mike Delisser
15-03-2009, 09:47 PM
Ethanol fuel is a con. Another sad, Greenie driven, bullsh!t con.

Tim

I agree it won't solve anything but it's not just the greenies Timmi, cane farmers and the Nationals have a real push on it.

Cut from the policies section of the LNP web site

"The LNP is a strong supporter of ethanol, having twice introducing legislation into State Parliament to introduce a mandate. But on each occasion Labor used its numbers to defeat the laws."


At the time they (LNP) were after a minimum of at least 10% mandated to be brought in asap.
Cheers

Krashtackle
15-03-2009, 10:00 PM
Lucky just before we fueled up our new baby for the first time, we had the sense to call the dealer to ask about ethanol :) After reading this now so glad we did. Thanks for the info!!

Mindi
15-03-2009, 10:13 PM
I agree it won't solve anything but it's not just the greenies Timmi, cane farmers and the Nationals have a real push on it.

Cut from the policies section of the LNP web site

"The LNP is a strong supporter of ethanol, having twice introducing legislation into State Parliament to introduce a mandate. But on each occasion Labor used its numbers to defeat the laws."


At the time they (LNP) were after a minimum of at least 10% mandated to be brought in asap.
Cheers

Its not really a greenie policy...its just a bad policy. Makes crap fuel, increases costs, diverts food production to fuel supply which is feared will hurt developing 3rd world countries by depriving them of food......all to push up the value of easy grow ethanol capable crops.... its just crap selfish policy and will hopefully fail around the world. Wonder if it has anything to do with the ongoing need to subsidise thousands of square miles of corn and rape production in the USA...? and creating a market for them. It's just bad policy...does nothing worthwhile for the environment... I would reckon the greenhouse effect of the petroleum to be replaced wouldnt be all that different to the production load from growing and refining ethanol..? Its just a crap policy IMHO

Of course the LNP would support it. As for anyone with a boat well f**k them seems to be the solution. Larry Springboard wouldnt know a boat from a bull.
Even the Qld Govt plan admits that the goal is to create a market...not to help the environment...no I dont think its a greenie issue.....it was born of the idea that it would make our oil supplies last longer when they were headed for $200usd a barrel.

TimiBoy
16-03-2009, 06:01 AM
You are correct and I have spoken with my local Pollies of both relevant persuations. They were not aware of the boat issue - many boaties aren't. This needs some airplay outside of Ausfish, and will get it after the election. Sugar gets no money atm, hence the Sugar Farmers want ethanol in order to survive, and I agree it's a furfy. If the price goes up again, suddenly ethanol will die a natural death, but I don't know the sugar market, so won't try to predict it.

But the replacement of oil with bio fuel IS a Greenie initiative, and it's one reason ethanol fuel is an easy sell to the electorate. The Greens are happy to see the world starve, just so we can have ethanol, palm oil in our tanks, and tofu on our table.

Don't foget the message. The Greens are anathema.

Tim

Mindi
16-03-2009, 07:12 AM
"..........But the replacement of oil with bio fuel IS a Greenie initiative, and it's one reason ethanol fuel is an easy sell to the electorate.

Tim[/quote]"


Sure..!..but the argument that it actually does much for greenhouse gas emissions nett nett is unconvincing

Far side
16-03-2009, 07:50 AM
Don't put it in your boat

But seriously is ethanol really saving the enviroment
The carbon footprint on a litre of ethanol would be pretty high when you take into account growing it crushing it distilling it and transporting it before you actually burn it. Doing the same with a litre of crude would have a much lower carbon foot print as it is an extraction process.
The ethanol story seem to be a bit of a con and spin to get green votes

oldboot
16-03-2009, 09:37 AM
Lets talk some sense here and less piss and vinegar.

Ethanol as a fuel is convienient and viable, the Brasilians have proven that over decades, they run their cars on very high portions ethanol and have done for some time as a matter of nesessity.
They derive theirs mostly from sugar cane which is great in their climate.

Making ethanol from sugarcane is probaly the most productive and efficient source and can be processed almost completely from renewable fast growing product sugar cane. Much of the additional energy required for processing can be gained by burning the left over stalk material as they have done in cane processing since year dot.

Sugar is in decline at the moment in this country and there is still capacity to grow more than we sell and use......particularly with the wet returning to the north.
We can also do with consuming less sugar, this would have the environmental advantage that there would be less fuel consumed dragging our everspreading a$$## arround.

( say there is a thaught, tackle obesity and save fuel)

The problem with the current ethanol polocy is that they want to produce it from grain. Sorgum I believe, a product that as it stands is sold to capacity as a stock feed. To produce viable amouts of ethanol from sorgum growing capacity will have to be substantialy increased and the price of sorgum will rise thus increasing the price of feedlot meat.

No one seesm to be interested in producing alcahol from waste products such as stalks and chaff, or saw mill waste.


Here also we see one of the big issues of alternative fuels, they are very keen to manufacture an agricultrual industry arround alternative fuels, but there is very little will to produce alternative fuels from waste products which has a double environmental advantage...it produces fuel and disposes of waste.

World wide we have a massive problem with waste, there is very little of it that could not be either, recycled, reprocessed or burned.

Consider timber.... for every usable cube of timber that comes out of a saw mill, there is approximately 1 cube of fine material waste and 1 cube of hard chunky stuff......if the miller is efficient and lucky.

Most agricultrual processing plants, milling, crushing or extraction produce masses of ( often starch rich) celulose waste that could be either burned or fermented for alcahol.

But governemnts ( particuarly this QLD government) are always looking for large scale solutions to problems, not small ones.

enough ranting for now.

Ethanol on boats and planes... NO.

But in genearal road transport, it has to come. Currently however its delivery is poorly concieved and it is far to dear.

cheers
cheers

Mindi
16-03-2009, 10:47 AM
Sure Oldboot...I dont disagree with any of that...my objection above was the bad policy (IMHO) of potential food crops being diverted for more profitable ethanol use. The Qld govt's policy is probably driven by finding the most profitable ethanol sink for producers, not by the environmental attraction of recycling waste. And the implication that the total carbon footprint of a tonne of petroleum is greater than a tonne and a half (or whatever) of ethanol needs to be demonstrated not just asserted. It may well be the case..? even after accounting for the stalk burning and higher consumption in enduse etc etc..

Outsider1
16-03-2009, 11:04 AM
Ethanol as a fuel is convenient and viable, the Brasilians have proven that over decades, they run their cars on very high portions ethanol and have done for some time as a matter of nesessity.
They derive theirs mostly from sugar cane which is great in their climate.Just a few small problems with the so called brazilian example.

1) what about the huge tracts of rain forest they subsequently knocked down to grow more cane, and also grow food crops that had been displaced by a shift to more cane to supply the fuel they required.

2) cars engines were specifically developed for their market and as far as I am aware are exclusively for ethanol and are not dual fuel compatible. The (original) VW beetle continued to be manufactured in Brazil right up until the late 90's because it was easily adapted to running on high % ethanol.

3) Brazil auto manufacturers did not have to meet the same emission standards that apply here and in the US.

I agree it was a solution they made work, but lets not over simply why and how.

Agree there is some scope for excess sugar production to be diverted to ethanol production. The problem is that from what I have read the sugar industry is trying to make it a growth market for them which will then see a ramp up in cane production and a displacement of other potential food crops etc. Also not the smartest solution in my mind for an industry that has been in over supply for years and really needs to rationalise itself.

Agree that production from waste products is the potential answer, and understand that some well advanced technology developments are aimed in that direction.

However, in the interim, any political claims that ethanol is currently a green solution is all smoke and mirrors. The data I have seen says that it takes the equivalent energy of 830 litres of oil to make 1,000 litres of ethanol, hardly a efficient solution. I have seen some studies argue that the energy to produce ethanol actually exceeds the energy value of the ethanol produced.

There is also a slight positive in that ethanol burns cleaner than current ULP, but the differences at 10% blend are only small.

The current price difference is also a rip off. A 10% Ethanol blend produces 3% less efficiency, but costs only 2.5% less, so you use more to travel the same distance.

I am all for developing alternative fuels including ethanol, but the green argument is currently a furphy and the mandates political pandering IMO.

Oh and one other thing I will agree on regarding (processed) sugar, best to cut it out of the diet. I did so and have so far dropped about 18 kgs!

Cheers

Dave

spelchek
16-03-2009, 11:22 AM
I think you guys are giving the greenies far too much credit and (conveniently?) forgetting the canefarming lobby who is also actively pushing for ethanol in fuel.

oldboot
16-03-2009, 11:31 AM
I. in south america they are clearing heaps of rain forest anyway and many crops especilay beef and cocaine are far worse for the environment.......

2. yes car engines over there have been adapted to run the blend, but that is nowhere near the problem as it was in the past. Any respectable modern fuel injected car should cope with all sorts of fuel mixes as they adjust all engine parameters on the fly......perhaps some software changes.
The beetle is nothing special , the reason the beetle and the moke continued in south america was they were cheap.... any car should be able to be adapted to alcahol fuel......they have been doing it for motor racing for decades, there is less problem adapting cars for alcahol that LPG or CNG. ( jetting , timing, compression ratio).

3. emission standards have nothing to do with it, use of ethanol actulay makes it easier to get a clean burn, any modern fuel injection system will sort this out no problem.

The prodution of alternative fuels is a very real need and a pressing issue, however the political solutions we have seen thus far have been very poor efforts.

If you have an anti- neucular view, there is no alternative to production of alternative fuels, both liquid and solid and very soon.

However...I thing we are going to be forced to bite the neucular bullet sooner or later... because regardess of green preasure.... the genearal public will not tolerate the costs of energy otherwise....particuarly in cooler climates.



cheers

cormorant
16-03-2009, 11:32 AM
Hi outsider1.

Can you add to the list the use of fertiliser. Often very energy intensive o produce and transport.

If any true table is to be created it has to include the total carbon input and output from birth to death inclusive of all outside inputs like motor modifications and fertilisers and their carbon effects.

If a value is attributed to carbon that will sort out the price difference between products if it is a fair market. A fair market with politicians and industry involved??? Yeah right.

Ethanol is OK in fuel systems and motors designed for it and a fuel storage network also. When boats have an airtight non breathing regulated fuel system like a car there would be lower risk of water contamination via water ingress but humidity and condensation would need to be watched.

Even in normal fuels there is ethanol chains in normal and premium it is just a small % amount.

There are stabilising additives that help and maybe with further development the downside risks can be overcome waqter, storage and lack of actual energy in the fuel.

Even with a 30% extra fuel allowance for a trip you could easilly come home near empty in tough conditions with by filling up with ethanol if yoou actually required the full power of your motor in rough weather

Mike Delisser
17-03-2009, 03:20 PM
You are correct and I have spoken with my local Pollies of both relevant persuations. They were not aware of the boat issue - many boaties aren't. This needs some airplay outside of Ausfish, and will get it after the election. Tim


Well if the LNP get in I'm sure they will give just as much consideration to the requests of boaties groups like Sunfish & Marine Qld as they will to the Qld Cane Growers Organisation.
I think I might buy a sail ;)

TimiBoy
27-03-2009, 06:32 AM
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon103007.gif

LOL!

or CRY?

I'm not sure.

Tim